Re: The poke checking is so badddd

Jagakov, I genuinely appreciate the crap out of you. You're the only one going clip for clip with me and I love it. 

---

@Jagavekov wrote:

I guess you need to teach Charlie McAvoy how to play defense?  Lots of poke spamming there and no shoving until the puck is knocked loose!  

---

The real-world clip you provided plays out almost exactly like the clip from NHL 24

1. Puck is knocked loose:

2. the poke checker is trailing the puck carrier after the puck is knocked loose and attempts a poke check again:

3. The puck maintains its trajectory and the original puck carrier retains possession:

The major difference between the IRL clip and NHL 24 is that in the NHL 24 clip, the defender is constantly hitting poke check after the puck carrier has gained separation, whereas McAvoy hounds the carrier by placing his stick and then using the body when he does get close. McAvoy is better able to keep pace with Benn in this clip, but Benn ultimately has better body position due to the number of times McAvoy tried to disrupt possession with his poke checking. 

When you compare the two scenarios, to me the biggest difference is separation. You could have a point that the penalty on speed is too high when poke checking. This would allow a defender to recover from bad poke check a little quicker.

Watch how this player gains body position BEFORE attempting a poke:

Almost identical to this play:

What's the difference?

A very small adjustment in deciding to poke when they had better body position that resulted in a better outcome:

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

Watch how this player gains body position BEFORE attempting a poke:

Almost identical to this play:

What's the difference?

A very small adjustment in deciding to poke when they had better body position that resulted in a better outcome:

---

Shouldn't he have hit there?!

Silly play. Had nothing to do with positioning but incidental contact and a poke check that fortunes out and connects with puck on the 2nd touch (of the same poke). 

That'd be a good clip to show if it was consistent, but it was flukey because most times the incidental contact animation won't trigger nor actually touching the puck and directing it away from the player. 

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

What's the difference?

A very small adjustment in deciding to poke when they had better body position that resulted in a better outcome:

Again - you're making my argument for me. Even if I were to cede your argument that defense in real life is (and in a videogame *should* be) harder, AND I were to agree to all your assertions and observations about the defensive gameplay presented here - the simple fact remains:  there is just too large a discrepancy between how precise one has to be on defense vs offense to be successful.

If this is not a hockey simulation - and I think we can all agree that it is not - why is the game so punishing for such small margins of error for one aspect but not another. Same for goalie I suspect - all you accomplish is making it less fun for people to play those positions and ultimately reduce the player pool for those playing that  position - we saw that this year for goalies in leagues - many of whom gave up the position to play fwd

---

@TheUnusedCrayon wrote:Had nothing to do with positioning but incidental contact

---

Answer me this: How does one trigger incidental contact if they didn't have good body positioning?

The claim that this was a "silly play" is just absurd.

---

@TheUnusedCrayon wrote:

That'd be a good clip to show if it was consistent, but it was flukey because most times the incidental contact animation won't trigger nor actually touching the puck and directing it away from the player. 

---

This doesn't make any sense. 

---

@IceLion68 wrote:Even if I were to cede your argument that defense in real life is (and in a videogame *should* be) harder, AND I were to agree to all your assertions and observations about the defensive gameplay presented here - the simple fact remains:  there is just too large a discrepancy between how precise one has to be on defense vs offense to be successful.

---

Agree to disagree on this. I like that players need to be defensively skilled in order to be successful. With the offensive prowess of your average EA NHL player, it would absolutely suck if they could get up by a couple of goals and just use 'dumbed down' defensive mechanics to shut everything down and glide to victory. 

It seems you'd rather stifle offense instead of making people more defensively responsible. I very much disagree with that. 

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

---

@IceLion68 wrote:Even if I were to cede your argument that defense in real life is (and in a videogame *should* be) harder, AND I were to agree to all your assertions and observations about the defensive gameplay presented here - the simple fact remains:  there is just too large a discrepancy between how precise one has to be on defense vs offense to be successful.

---

Agree to disagree on this. I like that players need to be defensively skilled in order to be successful. With the offensive prowess of your average EA NHL player, it would absolutely suck if they could get up by a couple of goals and just use 'dumbed down' defensive mechanics to shut everything down and glide to victory. 

It seems you'd rather stifle offense instead of making people more defensively responsible. I very much disagree with that. 

---

Everything has been stated otherwise about him wanting to stifle offense. In fact he's promoted offense being rewarded by getting to good areas of the ice, so I dunno where you'd get that notion from. 

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

Jagakov, I genuinely appreciate the crap out of you. You're the only one going clip for clip with me and I love it. 

---

@Jagavekov wrote:

I guess you need to teach Charlie McAvoy how to play defense?  Lots of poke spamming there and no shoving until the puck is knocked loose!  

---

The real-world clip you provided plays out almost exactly like the clip from NHL 24

1. Puck is knocked loose:

2. the poke checker is trailing the puck carrier after the puck is knocked loose and attempts a poke check again:

3. The puck maintains its trajectory and the original puck carrier retains possession:

The major difference between the IRL clip and NHL 24 is that in the NHL 24 clip, the defender is constantly hitting poke check after the puck carrier has gained separation, whereas McAvoy hounds the carrier by placing his stick and then using the body when he does get close. McAvoy is better able to keep pace with Benn in this clip, but Benn ultimately has better body position due to the number of times McAvoy tried to disrupt possession with his poke checking. 

When you compare the two scenarios, to me the biggest difference is separation. You could have a point that the penalty on speed is too high when poke checking. This would allow a defender to recover from bad poke check a little quicker.

---

You are being disingenuous by showing the positioning AFTER the poke happened, when the insane poke slowdown caused the defender to be behind the puck carrier.  You keep showing this frame as an example of being in bad position for the poke:

But the poke was actually started a few seconds BEFORE this frame, where the defender is in much better position for the poke:

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

---

@IceLion68 wrote:Even if I were to cede your argument that defense in real life is (and in a videogame *should* be) harder, AND I were to agree to all your assertions and observations about the defensive gameplay presented here - the simple fact remains:  there is just too large a discrepancy between how precise one has to be on defense vs offense to be successful.

---

Agree to disagree on this. I like that players need to be defensively skilled in order to be successful. With the offensive prowess of your average EA NHL player, it would absolutely suck if they could get up by a couple of goals and just use 'dumbed down' defensive mechanics to shut everything down and glide to victory. 

It seems you'd rather stifle offense instead of making people more defensively responsible. I very much disagree with that. 

---

The problem is that defense has every responsibility in the world to be perfect and use every mechanic and tool in the game at exactly the right time and with perfect analog positioning, when offense has a comically large room for error and has no responsibility to use anything properly.  Take the clip I posted for example:

Couldn't you say that was a perfect time for the puck carrier to use the protect puck button to move the puck to a position where the puck wasn't so vulnerable to a poke check and shield the puck with his body?   He just skated in a straight line with the puck out in the open within reach of a defender's stick. 

---

@Jagavekov wrote:

You are being disingenuous by showing the positioning AFTER the poke happened

---

lmao, I'm done. No sense in discussing this anymore. 

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

---

@IceLion68 wrote:Even if I were to cede your argument that defense in real life is (and in a videogame *should* be) harder, AND I were to agree to all your assertions and observations about the defensive gameplay presented here - the simple fact remains:  there is just too large a discrepancy between how precise one has to be on defense vs offense to be successful.

---

Agree to disagree on this. I like that players need to be defensively skilled in order to be successful. With the offensive prowess of your average EA NHL player, it would absolutely suck if they could get up by a couple of goals and just use 'dumbed down' defensive mechanics to shut everything down and glide to victory. 

It seems you'd rather stifle offense instead of making people more defensively responsible. I very much disagree with that. 

---

If you think that what I have put forward equates to people being able to not be defensively responsible then I am not even sure what to say - you are talking past me and have completely missed my point. But I am not terribly interested in going around in circles here with you anymore so we will leave it at that I guess

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

---

@Jagavekov wrote:

You are being disingenuous by showing the positioning AFTER the poke happened

---

lmao, I'm done. No sense in discussing this anymore. 

---

Sorry, but it is factual.  The positioning prior to the poke check was good, you showed a picture well after after the poke started that made it seem bad.

You could have shown this, which is even a few frames after the poke started:

But you showed this, which is well after the speed penalty for poking affected the positioning:

---

@Jagavekov wrote:

---

@KidShowtime1867 wrote:

---

@Jagavekov wrote:

You are being disingenuous by showing the positioning AFTER the poke happened

---

lmao, I'm done. No sense in discussing this anymore. 

---

Sorry, but it is factual.  The positioning prior to the poke check was good, you showed a picture well after after the poke started that made it seem bad.

You could have shown this, which is even a few frames after the poke started:

But you showed this, which is well after the speed penalty for poking affected the positioning:

---

Cant argue with that...great discussion guys. Thank you jagavekov for all of your clips and pictures.

With today's 1.2.1 update defense gets nerfed again by weakening the effectiveness of hip checks.  1.2.0 already nerfed the speed boost during heavy hits.

The most obvious mechanic to buff in return are the pokechecks. We have enough evidence in this thread.

@gzell60 

Nerfing hip checks has been one of the biggest requests from the community. I play defense exclusively in WoC and am pretty thrilled this change is coming. It's absolutely annoying going up against teams that do nothing but abuse hip checks. There are more skilled ways to defend.

Occasionally I get frustrated with poke checks, but when they are timed appropriately they work very well. I use poke checks far more than hitting. It's probably my primary tool for defense. In no way am I saying they couldn't use some work though.

I can relate to your play style. I am a stick first type who tries to play smart and positionally sound. The hip checks were getting crazy because as a d man you could pass the puck out and then here comes the hipcheck from a mile away knocking you flying.. which takes you out of the play.. it was disrupting the natural flow of things.. 

anyhoo to my point.. do you find that sometimes the poke check doesn’t make sense? For example do you ever notice it’s easier to poke from behind on a breakaway than it is to poke at someone in front of you or angle beside you? 

also do you ever find it frustrating when your player just decides to do a weak poke animation and seems like he’s barely trying to knock the puck away? Or when you poke it but it barely nudges the puck or it goes right back on the stick of the other player? Maybe puck control and the speed of weaving the stick on offense can be looked at? It seems too easy to skate into traffic or to skate through a positionally sound d

---

@TasteofChicago91 wrote:

I can relate to your play style. I am a stick first type who tries to play smart and positionally sound. The hip checks were getting crazy because as a d man you could pass the puck out and then here comes the hipcheck from a mile away knocking you flying.. which takes you out of the play.. it was disrupting the natural flow of things.. 

anyhoo to my point.. do you find that sometimes the poke check doesn’t make sense? For example do you ever notice it’s easier to poke from behind on a breakaway than it is to poke at someone in front of you or angle beside you? 

also do you ever find it frustrating when your player just decides to do a weak poke animation and seems like he’s barely trying to knock the puck away? Or when you poke it but it barely nudges the puck or it goes right back on the stick of the other player? Maybe puck control and the speed of weaving the stick on offense can be looked at? It seems too easy to skate into traffic or to skate through a positionally sound d

---

Yeah, I get plowed often after making a pass. Sometimes it's multiple players going for the hit. While it's annoying, it at least takes a an opposing player or 2 out of the play and gives my forwards more time and space to do their thing. So, we often end up scoring because they've decided to lay me out while my teammates are breaking out and they're now behind the play. 

I haven't noticed weak poke animations. As far as I know, the animation is always the same. Sometimes you make weak contact with the puck though. Which is probably what you mean. Regardless, yeah, those are frustrating, but better contact would have been made if I had narrowed the gap and hit the puck stronger. I think that's more of an issue with my play than the game because a high amount of my pokes send the puck out of reach. I do also have those times when a couple pokes are made and they just pick it up again. That's due to positioning, ratings and not making good contact with the poke. If a puck is moving out of my reach when I'm facing the opposite direction, I'm not going to expect to pick it up when a forward is facing the puck and skating towards it. Also, a lot of my pokes are from using DSS so I sweep the puck away often rather than make a weak poke where they can regain possession.

Hmm interesting. I do agree about the opposing team running out of position for hits as it’s advantageous for your team getting an odd man rush the other way. 

1. in regards to poke check I do feel like it’s more difficult taking players 1 on 1 unless they are near the boards. I’ve found that in the middle of the ice I won’t even poke check it because the forward can move their stick so fast to the inside or outside that if i poke it then it’ll miss and the guy can cut inside so fast. A lot of times I have to just wait for them to make the first move 
2. I find myself using the puck moving d build more because it can keep up with the 95 speed forwards AND I feel like having the speed and ability to put yourself in position is more important than having all the boosts of a 2 way D. The 2 way D seems too slow for me so it’s tough if your club isn’t back checking properly and other team is getting a free release. 
   
   
3. While I respect what you said (I suck at getting every detail right in a discussion) I still think the offense is a bit more overpowered then the D.. while yes I agree that occasionally I do make mistakes and could’ve played a sequence better.. I think there should also be more punishment to an offensive player who is say forcing passes, skating into traffic, etc. I don’t know maybe im wrong.. but the patch today was a nice first step.. nerfing hipcheck is good. 
   
   
4. do you think there needs to be any more gameplay adjustments in regards to offense/D balance and do you think in nhl 25 there will be more defensive tools? Do you think they’ll look at improving certain aspects of playing defense? 

---

@BoredJason13 wrote:
@EA_Aljo I’m with you in waiting until the last possible second to pass, done that the majority online because I know everyone is hit happy. But in terms of offline it gets annoying when your player loses half his energy or ends up being out long term when doing it off a faceoff. I had to turn the injury slider down just because of these and yet it still happens 😂 here’s that clip
https://twitter.com/boredjason/status/1727416812847902824?s=46&t=VDcTiKkgVNHIhpeMzhe1jg

---

I see how that can be frustrating with offline. I just never play offline so it's not something I'm familiar with.

As far as I know, turning the injury slider down doesn't completely turn off injuries. It just makes them less likely to happen.

First of all using hipchecks all the time is NOT defense, second of all nerfing hipchecks helps defense. How many times have you passed the puck or dumped it in and then someone comes from way far away at 2mph and sends you flying taking you out of the play. There’s a lot of tripping and interference.. not to mention you’re ahead of the play and the hip checker is being bailed out for being out of position. 

nerfing hipchecks punishes people who are playing out of position and forces you to play positionally sound defense. 

---

@EA_Aljo wrote:

---

@TasteofChicago91 wrote:

I can relate to your play style. I am a stick first type who tries to play smart and positionally sound. The hip checks were getting crazy because as a d man you could pass the puck out and then here comes the hipcheck from a mile away knocking you flying.. which takes you out of the play.. it was disrupting the natural flow of things.. 

anyhoo to my point.. do you find that sometimes the poke check doesn’t make sense? For example do you ever notice it’s easier to poke from behind on a breakaway than it is to poke at someone in front of you or angle beside you? 

also do you ever find it frustrating when your player just decides to do a weak poke animation and seems like he’s barely trying to knock the puck away? Or when you poke it but it barely nudges the puck or it goes right back on the stick of the other player? Maybe puck control and the speed of weaving the stick on offense can be looked at? It seems too easy to skate into traffic or to skate through a positionally sound d

---

Yeah, I get plowed often after making a pass. Sometimes it's multiple players going for the hit. While it's annoying, it at least takes a an opposing player or 2 out of the play and gives my forwards more time and space to do their thing. So, we often end up scoring because they've decided to lay me out while my teammates are breaking out and they're now behind the play. 

I haven't noticed weak poke animations. As far as I know, the animation is always the same. Sometimes you make weak contact with the puck though. Which is probably what you mean. Regardless, yeah, those are frustrating, but better contact would have been made if I had narrowed the gap and hit the puck stronger. I think that's more of an issue with my play than the game because a high amount of my pokes send the puck out of reach. I do also have those times when a couple pokes are made and they just pick it up again. That's due to positioning, ratings and not making good contact with the poke. If a puck is moving out of my reach when I'm facing the opposite direction, I'm not going to expect to pick it up when a forward is facing the puck and skating towards it. Also, a lot of my pokes are from using DSS so I sweep the puck away often rather than make a weak poke where they can regain possession.

---

Would it be possible to exchange the game I'm playing with for yours?