Excessive weakening of condor/Hind
The nerfs in the August update are clearly overkill. Players often talk about how strong Condor/Hind are, but they can't do simple addition. Condor/Hind has 2 or more players. In some cases, condor/...
Forum Discussion
@sorikkcUm, what? We’re playing a game not having a religious experience. You might have had a bit too much KoolAid my friend. A lot of us think the Condor and Hind are OP, you’ve shared a different opinion. That’s ok, you’re entitled to it. Might be a bit early as the patch hasn’t dropped yet and we don’t know the full circumstances. Maybe we’ll talk again.
The devs have said that with the Condor/Hind nerfs they are trying to ensure that these vehicles are used for transport as intended and not as the incredibly strong aerial gunships that they are currently.
I personally don't think the weapon nerfs are enough to do this.
(Just like the weapon nerfs alone are not enough to resolve the overpowered nature of the stealth helicopters).
I've lost count of the number of times our team has been pushed back on the map and I look on the spawn screen to see a Condor or Hind over an enemy flag on the other side of the map that I'd love to spawn onto so I could capture that flag but I can't because people just won't leave the transport aircraft.
The same issue arises with the MAV transport vehicle as well (which I'd like to see replaced with a fast moving LAV).
What needs to be done is to severely reduce the utility of the passenger seats in these vehicles.
A "transport" vehicle should not be able to overpower an attack aircraft like a Hokum or Apache helicopter yet that is what happens.
A "transport" vehicle should not be able to overpower an armoured vehicle such as a tank yet that's often the case too with a good crew in a suitably equipped MAV.
The transport vehicles should be FAST, LIGHTLY ARMOURED and have LIGHT SUPPORT WEAPONS.
They should not have any internal seats that players can repair the vehicle from.
They should not have vehicle destroying weapons.
I'd like to see the following changes made to the Condor/Hind and the MAV.
1) They all need to move FASTER. It is their ability to move and evade that should determine how long they stay alive in the hands of a good pilot or driver,
2) Weapons should be restricted to LIGHT armaments effective against infantry and light vehicles only,
3) One pilot/driver slot, one gunner slot, four BLIND passenger slots (Blind meaning no repairs, no guns, no window to shoot rockets out of....just a seat that you GET THE HELL OUT OF once you are over an enemy flag,
4) Increase the utility of the repair function utilised by the pilot (to offset the loss of the two passenger repair slots),
5) Increase the number of transport vehicles able to be spawned at one time. This may seem like it would be excessive but the recent changes to the Anti-Air vehicle to make it more powerful will offset the increased numbers.
(Side Note : on the subject of the Anti-air vehicle....please remove the weapons that allow players to redefine this vehicle as a tank killer and force it to be played as the Anti-air asset that it is meant to be. The buffs to the 30mm cannon primary weapon will see this used to farm infantry across the map as a ground vehicle. Reduce the damage of the 30mm weapon against infantry please.)
I've used the Condor/Hind at every oportunity since the Beta. They have been very strong since day one but it seems only recently that they have received the attention they deserved and the changes that were long overdue.
More changes will be needed to make these true "transport" aircraft.
As for the MAV I'd like to see it replaced with a fast moving LAV with 6 slots.
1) driver - with light machine gun and LOTS of smoke options (local area, launcher, rear smoke trail....you name it.....smoke it up) and improved repairs,
2) gunner - with heavy machine gun,
3-6) four BLIND passenger slots (no weapons, no windows, no repairs).
These changes would strongly incentivise players to get out of the vehicles and cap flags, rather than camping inside the "transport" vehicles to try and rack up kills.
I enjoy being a transport pilot. It is a support role that can have a huge impact on a match as you quickly disperse players all over the map.
Transports should NOT be capturing flags under any circumstances. They should be destroyed quickly if they try to. Their role is to move soldiers from point to point.
Please make it so.
Reducing the power of the Condor/Hind against vehicles will also have an additional benefit.
Tanks and anti-aircraft vehicles might actualy be able to be used the way they should be. As powerful game-changing armoured vehicles.
Right now if you are in an armoured vehicle and you're unlucky enough to have a good transport pilot on the other team you might as well just blow your own tank up, because they sure will.
These suggestions will upset a number of players who enjoy the large number of kills that can currently by achieved with a transport.
They should not be able to do that in a transport. That is the role of an attack helicopter or a tank.
Kap.
We are very honored to hear your wise opinion.
Yes, DICE says there should be transport planes.
But I think it's too easy to undermine these days.
If DICE's words are true, I think transport aircraft should evolve, not weaken.
I think what you're proposing is just an evolution, not a weakening.
First of all, this is my wild guess.
I remember talking at BF2042 that vehicles were an important part of the collaboration.
Condor/Hind is therefore specifically designed for attack.
This is because players often want an easy-to-understand strength.
Especially for new players.
However, unfortunately, the only name that matched the world view was "transport aircraft", so it may have been named like this.
I know there is a hidden strength on the battlefield that is not obvious strength.
I think that's exactly what you suggested.
However, it requires too many modifications.
If you think more realistically, you can think of changing the name of "Transport" to "Aerial Fortress".
At this time, you should increase the respawn time and reduce the number.
If it evolves into a transport plane
1. Weapons are light weapons and defensive stuff like EMP/smoke
2. Added spawn seat (Seat that forces you to exit the vehicle at the same time as spawning. In that case, it would be interesting to give some armor)
3. Increased mobility
I think that etc. is necessary.
I think that repair crews should be left as they are.
Because if you lose the means of attack, you need to increase your survivability.Lol, this is starting to sound like a troll thread now
i have to agree with that
@Kaptyn027 wrote:
@sorikkc
If I understand correctly what you want is an AC-130 Gunship, not a transport aircraft.
Kap.Whenever I hear about the AC-130 I remember is version from C&C Generals.
Straatford87DICE Team
Hey folks,
Update 1.2 went live in the past hour.
When you next have the opportunity to play, let us know how the Transport (and Stealth helicopters) feel after the update. From our experience, we did see they were too strong versus infantry.
@Straatford87 wrote:Hey folks,
Update 1.2 went live a in the past hour.
When you next have the opportunity to play, let us know how the Transport (and Stealth helicopters) feel after the update. From our experience, we did see they were too strong versus infantry.
@Straatford87generally all the heli issues have a lot to do with how air transports and helis counter with the press of the flare button and going out of line of slight/range to negate almost all the things the infantry can throw at them.
In that regard I believe that it would help if the TGS of Liz could either land more easily on aircraft and/or have larger fuel reserves for having the ability of making more than one pass per missile. Unlike in the season 1 trailer, at ingame a well flown heli will not hover nicely for a TGS to hit it. the 2042 Helis are perfectly capable of even doing Ace Combat Assault Horizon style full barrel rolls to avoid liz missiles.
That aside I believe that the AA buffs for the Wildcat could help things a bit. I will make sure to test later.Speaking of the wildcat, its turret ist still slow and has too limited high angles
Have we got AI bots communicating in the forums now?
This conversation was beginning to feel a bit spooky.
HAL9000 - "I don't think I agree with you Dave"
Kap.
- @Straatford87 for the stealth heli I see literally no difference at all, it's maybe 5% less strong, it still can go stealth, flare and is gone in seconds behind some cover.
The cannon was like the bolte before the nerf, it's now somewhere in the middle , but this never was the problem really.
a MUCH longer stealth cooldown or no flares at all would have been a real nerf to this thing
@Straatford87 wrote:Hey folks,
Update 1.2 went live in the past hour.
When you next have the opportunity to play, let us know how the Transport (and Stealth helicopters) feel after the update. From our experience, we did see they were too strong versus infantry.
Yeah I think the vast majority would agree with you they were definitely overpowered versus infantry.
Hopefully they will be better balanced after today's update.
@Straatford87I can foresee 40mm GL spam being the new Meta for Hind/Condor. Neither the 50mm or 40mm should exist on either platform. Two Miniguns are plenty and the nose gun should be replaced by smoke canisters activated by the pilot to provide screening for troops being dropped off. Convert the nose gunner to a third passenger slot that can’t use repair tool. More and more the Hind/Condor aren’t transports as most people stay on board more times than not.
The Hind and Condor cross the lines of being more
survivable than the tanks in game, plus high mobility, plus escapability, plus being able to use self repair while being repaired by two passengers. And flares that are almost always off cooldown. All factors combined make for an obviously overpowered platform the likes of which have never been seen on a Battlefield game.The classic, successful Battlefield formula is highly mobile lightly armed air transports. Blackhawk and Huey type airframes.
@Zhukov211
I'll have to remind some of the older players of the good old BF2 "flying fortress" blackhawk.
At one stage this thing was literally unkillable and could cap flags at 6X speed as all occupants counted towards the flag cap.
I'm pretty sure if I have a good look through some old external drives I could find some foootage of my helicopter completely capping out all 5 flags on Wake Island for the US team in about 3 minutes flat.
Not that I'm saying this was a good thing, but there have been overpowered heli's before and they did the right thing to bring them back to manageable levels.
I believe a few more tweaks (read nerfs) are required for both the transport aircraft and the stealth helicopters.
It would be nice if the tanks could actually be played as the powerful vehicles that they should be.
Kap.@Kaptyn027Miniguns on the Blackhawk take a lot more skill than spamming 40mm GL on the Hind/Condor. When you get hit by a minigun you most often have time to react. When 3 to 4 grenades from the 40mm GL from hind/condor hit you in one time stamp, you have zero reaction time. Add to that the notorious lack of cover on most 2042 maps, 40mm spam will be the new Hind/Condor Meta and these airframes will still be extremely difficult to take down.
@direct3r wrote:
@Straatford87for the stealth heli I see literally no difference at all, it's maybe 5% less strong, it still can go stealth, flare and is gone in seconds behind some cover.
The cannon was like the bolte before the nerf, it's now somewhere in the middle , but this never was the problem really.
a MUCH longer stealth cooldown or no flares at all would have been a real nerf to this thingI believe that the best nerf for the stealth heli is to capitalize on it being something that needs to be sneaky. For that I believe that it should simply have less health than anything else.
Like 1 stinger/TGS = death.
This way one can justyfy its high firepower while also meaning that if the enemy is aware and expecting, the heli will go down fast if they start hitting it.
Another slightly more cruel nerf would be to require 100% or above 90% health for the stealth to be available and sustainable.
Someone just landed those 30mm AA shells at you? Well... stealth system malfunction bro!
It is fine if the stealth heli is deadly. It is a vehicle.
It is its defenses that are the problem
@UP_Hawxxeye wrote:
@direct3r wrote:
@Straatford87for the stealth heli I see literally no difference at all, it's maybe 5% less strong, it still can go stealth, flare and is gone in seconds behind some cover.
The cannon was like the bolte before the nerf, it's now somewhere in the middle , but this never was the problem really.
a MUCH longer stealth cooldown or no flares at all would have been a real nerf to this thingI believe that the best nerf for the stealth heli is to capitalize on it being something that needs to be sneaky. For that I believe that it should simply have less health than anything else.
Like 1 stinger/TGS = death.
This way one can justyfy its high firepower while also meaning that if the enemy is aware and expecting, the heli will go down fast if they start hitting it.
Another slightly more cruel nerf would be to require 100% or above 90% health for the stealth to be available and sustainable.
Someone just landed those 30mm AA shells at you? Well... stealth system malfunction bro!
It is fine if the stealth heli is deadly. It is a vehicle.
It is its defenses that are the problem
Definitely both good suggestions, either would help considerably to improve the current imbalance.
- @RayD_O1 there is a very good chance that the changes to the Wildcat will contribute to a much needed amount of dead helicopters.
@UP_Hawxxeye wrote:
@RayD_O1there is a very good chance that the changes to the Wildcat will contribute to a much needed amount of dead helicopters.Sounds good to me. 🙂
- @Kaptyn027 : POST #16. WELL SAID!!!!!! Couldn't agree more!!
As a condor/Hind pilot, I felt the need to fully test and express my opinion on this update.
Recent updates were user-first, incorporating user feedback.
I think this is a very healthy game.
I think that's great too.
But I hope I'm overthinking this...
Isn't the identity of the game BF left behind for the pleasure of the user?
I think that the identity of the game called BF is the following two.
1. Evaluate contribution to the team, not just individual killstreaks (think revive and resupply scores)
2. Asymmetry within a mixed team of infantry and vehicles and how they work together (Combat vehicles can get killstreaks, but they're not good at capturing bases. Capturing bases is essential for team victory.)
Of course, you can't make a game just by belief.
However, the reason why I continue to love BF among many games is because I sympathize with this belief.I'd love to hear from everyone looking at this thread, so please help.
This is a surprise to me as well...
Are you guys not happy with condor/hind's name being "Transport"?
For example, if condor/Hind were to be "air fortress" or "gunship", would it be acceptable?
If so, what DICE does becomes terribly easy.
All you have to do is change the name.
@anhuerta22 wrote:Lol, this is starting to sound like a troll thread now
100% this.
Though I have enjoyed reading the excellent replies that perfectly describe how broken the Hind and Condor are.
My 2 cents.
All they really need to do is REMOVE the cannons and all of the complaints will disappear.
But some people at Dice are too 'proud' to admit they royally messed up with the transport choppers so instead they are playing their fiddles while Rome burns.
After reading all your comments, I still don't understand, so I asked a question.
Is the Condor/Hind 50mm over-equipped because it's called a "transport"?
Or is it excessive as a game character?
If the name "transport" is a problem, it's easy to deal with.
If it's overkill for game characters, don't forget that it's a fully cooperative platform for two or three players. I think it makes sense to have the same platform to attack them, or the same number of infantry that work together correctly to deal with them.
(I think it's reasonable to have 3 or more soldiers working together to limit the movement of a platform that works with 3 people.)
@Straatford87 wrote:Hey folks,
Update 1.2 went live in the past hour.
When you next have the opportunity to play, let us know how the Transport (and Stealth helicopters) feel after the update. From our experience, we did see they were too strong versus infantry.
The Hind and the Condor are in a good place. It's not nearly as oppressive on infantry since the person operating the 50mm has to be much more selective with what and where they decide to fire their rounds due to the reload speed with this update. However you're still able to provide air support to infantry to help clear out campers for the infantry push when attacking in breakthrough. Good pilots and coordinated squads can still perform well with it.
@sorikkcI'd love to hear from everyone looking at this thread, so please help.
This is a surprise to me as well...
Are you guys not happy with condor/hind's name being "Transport"?
For example, if condor/Hind were to be "air fortress" or "gunship", would it be acceptable?
If so, what DICE does becomes terribly easy.
All you have to do is change the name.
__________________________________
If that is how it was intended and went in with the Attack helis, then OK.BUT IT"S NOT AND THAT IS NOT ITS INTENTION.
@sorikkc wrote:
...
If it's overkill for game characters, don't forget that it's a fully cooperative platform for two or three players. I think it makes sense to have the same platform to attack them, or the same number of infantry that work together correctly to deal with them.
(I think it's reasonable to have 3 or more soldiers working together to limit the movement of a platform that works with 3 people.)You continue to repeat this. Its not that simple in terms of balance. The 3 soldiers in your aircraft are under significantly less threat vs. the 3 on the ground while still being able to deal massive amount of damage, kills, and helping the objective. The soldiers (and its often takes more than 3 for a good pilot) are completely out of the game and almost 100% focused on trying to take out your aircraft and defend against it playing peek-a-boo.
DICE is trying to resolve this power imbalance by reducing the damage output potential of the air. I think they should have focused more on decreasing the heli's defensives (flare CD's, HP, etc.). Their approach does very little to increase the ability for infantry to defend and defeat the threat. It just slightly reduces the total damage output.I think DICE is counting on the buff to wildcat. But that is problematic because it shares a cooldown with other attack vehicles.
