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Ironhead841's avatar
Ironhead841
Hero
4 years ago
Solved

"Specialists" don't belong - Change my mind

I posted this in another thread but I think it warrants it's own thread.

Classes aren't as much about "restricting choices" as much as bringing back some sort of structure to the game.

Classes are a core component of Battlefield games going back to the BF1942. There has always been a trade-offs as others have pointed out. Good, bad or ugly it's a concept that has stood the test of time.

My personal issue with the specialists are the ridiculous abilities tied to the design, e.g.

Sundance ability to climb atop a 10' tall conex box and "glide/fly" 300yds, I mean what's the next evolution of specialists Superman? Not to mention crashing into the ground at mach 2 with minimal to no damage.

Mackay zipline/grapple hook that has a ridiculously short cool down, that is eerily reminiscent of Spiderman.

Dozer "magical impenetrable shield" which is somehow allows a single soldier to absorb a TANK round?

Irish "magical shield wall" = see above and he can carry two of these things around with him?

Boris wall hacking auto-gun who thought this was a good idea?

Casper this one doesn't bother me much as it's pretty close to the classic recon role, other than I hate mini-map spotting in general.

Rao meh. I'm ambivalent to this one as I just don't see it impacting gameplay much.

Paik the ability to wall-hack built INTO the game, yeah I just don't even get this. With all the other crap in this game giving away your position (stealth is virtually non-existent) do we really need a specialist with an ability universally considered cheating not so long ago?

Falck again not too many issues with this one as it seems to fall pretty close into the traditional medic role.

Angel ahh yes BF2042's super-soldier with unlimited supply of well... everything depending on your preset loadouts, nope just nope.

I was expecting and it seems a large number of the the community was expecting an upgraded/updated version of BF4 and we got some kind of bastardized COD/Fortnite/Apex abomination.

discussion
  • Twordy's avatar
    Twordy
    4 years ago

    The main problem with specialists is that they tend to be almost everything like Angel. Or succeed individually at flanking the enemies.

    There is a reason for Command structure with Squad formations in modern militaries. Usually, I find Rifleman, Rifleman (Grenadier) with a grenade launcher, Automatic Rifleman with LMG, Marksman with Sniper/DMR. Some Squads include Medic, Grenadier (Anti Tank), Ammo handlers (usually Riflemans). Being the universal soldier is helpful for every single individual. Specialist limits the number of equipment, its quantity too. For example, fewer rockets to equip and no secondary equipment compared to previous Battlefields. Instead, players receive a Specialist gadget that is usually highly individualistic. This change, for some, may seem only cosmetic or viewed as a black or white color dilemma. But this design approach changes the dynamics of the match. Not to mention how the map design with 128 players change the dynamics of CQ. The sprint button has never been as important in a Battlefield game as before.

    In the game mode called Gun Master, which was greatly popularized by CoD devs, there is no need for classes. I have no idea why this should not be the example and the case for TDM, SQTDM, Domination, and many other solely Infantry-based game modes. The medic class is the ultimate meta since at least 2005. Why there should ever be Classes or Specialists with no suitable sort of abilities in such casual game modes. Domination might be easily turned into a competitive mode with proper level design and setup.

    Battlefield has never been a military simulator, let`s make that clear. Battlefield has succeeded in the introduction of the Conquest mode. A game mode that is deeply rooted in the division of combat roles similarly to modern militaries. Every squad is built upon combat roles, operators, prime objectives. This approach is not present in BF2042 and is strictly optional. Squad divisions with their respective roles helped players to find a meaningful way to play the game. Weapon type, side equipment was extremely intuitional, players could subconsciously adapt their playstyle. Players derived more gratification from being useful in times of crisis not because of their aiming skills. That is the beauty of the game in previous Battlefields, especially in BF2. Battlefield is a highly tactical arcade game, especially in Conquest mode. BF2 spawned such titles as Project Reality, Squad and these games are closer to mil-sim.

    BF2042 has a completely different approach and I would quarrel whether this benefits Conquest mode even as a concept. To me, Conquest falls apart without organized Squads with combat roles. Without pre-determined classes, Conquest as a concept feels shallow. In addition, there is a complete absence of Squad Management. Servers are not being run by the communities. Battlefield just falls apart and becomes more individualistic.

    I would give any money to witness Conquest mode with 7 or 11 classes. Rifleman, Medic, Support, Engineer, Anti-Tank, Sniper, Spec-Ops, Paratrooper, Recon and possibly Mercenary and Insurgent spin-off operators with respective equipment and combat approach than what is currently present in 2042. Vehicles deployed for a specific theatre of war as it used to be and is not apparent for the devs nowadays. Right now instead "Battlefield is back baby" slogan, I may witness "bad jokes on us players" as the main motto.

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  • Kean_1111's avatar
    Kean_1111
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago
    @-DFA-Thump wrote:

    Specialist are such a great idea that they didn't make it in their upcoming mobile Battlefield.

    Spot on @-DFA-Thump and encouraging news if this bears out and becomes an example of what BF2042 should have been and still should be.

    I'm not a mobile gamer but depending on the level of "tailoring" they're talking about, this is what I envisioned as a natural progression for the classes in BF.  I hope folks like Marc Lehto whose studio will help build the character narratives and stories for BF will see the same thing and try to effect change in BF2042 as well.  

    ....but seeing how BF2042 came out, I'll reserve judgement until I see exactly what their vision is in this regard on mobile.

  • Ironhead841's avatar
    Ironhead841
    Hero
    4 years ago
    @Psubond wrote:
    @Ironhead841there's a lot of stuff i the game that isn't grounded in reality. revives, a scout helo being able to tank a direct hit from a stinger (and even getting a threat warning from an IR missile) regening health, being able to carry around an ammo crate that everyone can completely rearm from, the way jets can turn....should i go on?

    Look I hear ya what you're saying, like I said I know it's just a game. The specialists abilities are just a bridge too far for me, and we're supposed to get 4 more of these? I shudder to think what's next maybe a wizard?

    From the majority of your posts it seems like I agree owith you n most things except this one. You like them, I don't, we'll just have to agree to disagree I reckon. 

  • kregora's avatar
    kregora
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago

    @Ironhead841 At least have the courtesy to which class model you are referring to.

    BF2042 is ab updated version of BF3, and that is why that the Specialist are as inflexible that BF3 Classes.

    You may not like the new abilities, and you may miss abilities from other Battlefield games, but that doesn't automatically make Specialists worse than Classes.

    At least this time they didn't put all the most desirable weapons and most desirable gadgets in the same class again, like they did in BF4 and BFV.

    So your observations about the abilities are not wrong, and there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed, but still nothing classes could improve on.

    You also may be disappointed that class defining gadgets now are mere secondary gadgets, like the support crates and anti-tank rockets or spawn beacons.

    I agree that putting the specialists in faction independent hero costumes is a stupid move, that can only work in factionless, squad based experiences.

    Sundance climb rate while flying is too powerful.

    Mackay grapple hook should work more like the Hardline equivalent and make this specialist a team player, not a lone wolf.

    Dozer the ballistic shield needs rework. So does armor piercing ammo. And yes, every round that can penetrate tank armor, should be able to penetrate the puny shield.  

    Irish  Every round that can penetrate tank armor, should be able to penetrate the the wall shield.

    Boris The turret should only be able to detect in the line of sight.

    Casper is a spotter and similar to the MAV recon in BF4.

    Rao Is rarely seen on the field, despite the fact that he is the only specialist with an anti-vehicle focus. 

    Paik Yeah, putting the wall hack into the code is not the wisest move. The ability with the current nerf and the lack of concrete or intermodal container penetrating weapons makes it nearly useless without voip. 

    Falck Agree, classic BF4 Assault, slightly more flexible.

    Angel Seriously needs fixing. Team heal should be removed. And the armor plates should be limited to 'squad, only'.

    Looks of the Specialists need to be generalized and become faction specific. Ethnicity and gender should become freely choosable. 

  • Ironhead841's avatar
    Ironhead841
    Hero
    4 years ago

    @kregora 

    I think something along the lines of the BF2 class structure would be something to build upon.

    As to the rest of your post, all of that sounds good in my opinion and could only help.

  • Twordy's avatar
    Twordy
    Seasoned Ace
    4 years ago

    The main problem with specialists is that they tend to be almost everything like Angel. Or succeed individually at flanking the enemies.

    There is a reason for Command structure with Squad formations in modern militaries. Usually, I find Rifleman, Rifleman (Grenadier) with a grenade launcher, Automatic Rifleman with LMG, Marksman with Sniper/DMR. Some Squads include Medic, Grenadier (Anti Tank), Ammo handlers (usually Riflemans). Being the universal soldier is helpful for every single individual. Specialist limits the number of equipment, its quantity too. For example, fewer rockets to equip and no secondary equipment compared to previous Battlefields. Instead, players receive a Specialist gadget that is usually highly individualistic. This change, for some, may seem only cosmetic or viewed as a black or white color dilemma. But this design approach changes the dynamics of the match. Not to mention how the map design with 128 players change the dynamics of CQ. The sprint button has never been as important in a Battlefield game as before.

    In the game mode called Gun Master, which was greatly popularized by CoD devs, there is no need for classes. I have no idea why this should not be the example and the case for TDM, SQTDM, Domination, and many other solely Infantry-based game modes. The medic class is the ultimate meta since at least 2005. Why there should ever be Classes or Specialists with no suitable sort of abilities in such casual game modes. Domination might be easily turned into a competitive mode with proper level design and setup.

    Battlefield has never been a military simulator, let`s make that clear. Battlefield has succeeded in the introduction of the Conquest mode. A game mode that is deeply rooted in the division of combat roles similarly to modern militaries. Every squad is built upon combat roles, operators, prime objectives. This approach is not present in BF2042 and is strictly optional. Squad divisions with their respective roles helped players to find a meaningful way to play the game. Weapon type, side equipment was extremely intuitional, players could subconsciously adapt their playstyle. Players derived more gratification from being useful in times of crisis not because of their aiming skills. That is the beauty of the game in previous Battlefields, especially in BF2. Battlefield is a highly tactical arcade game, especially in Conquest mode. BF2 spawned such titles as Project Reality, Squad and these games are closer to mil-sim.

    BF2042 has a completely different approach and I would quarrel whether this benefits Conquest mode even as a concept. To me, Conquest falls apart without organized Squads with combat roles. Without pre-determined classes, Conquest as a concept feels shallow. In addition, there is a complete absence of Squad Management. Servers are not being run by the communities. Battlefield just falls apart and becomes more individualistic.

    I would give any money to witness Conquest mode with 7 or 11 classes. Rifleman, Medic, Support, Engineer, Anti-Tank, Sniper, Spec-Ops, Paratrooper, Recon and possibly Mercenary and Insurgent spin-off operators with respective equipment and combat approach than what is currently present in 2042. Vehicles deployed for a specific theatre of war as it used to be and is not apparent for the devs nowadays. Right now instead "Battlefield is back baby" slogan, I may witness "bad jokes on us players" as the main motto.

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