Weekly Class Debrief - Recon

I always look forward to it. Thank you. Now, regarding reconnaissance, it includes eliminating infantry accompanying vehicles or infantry capturing flags. It also involves using gadgets for reconnaissance. Alternatively, some scouts frequently use quickscope and stay on the front lines. As for sniper rifles in general, I think the bullet velocity could be a little faster, and the bullet drop could vary depending on the weapon. I don't think UAVs are necessary. Standard gadgets can pinpoint enemy locations, so additional reconnaissance isn't needed. However, I understand that they are effective against hidden enemies. But what happens if the location of a hidden player is unilaterally pinpointed? Jammers should be added. My opinion on Claymores is attached via the link.Revert the M18 claymore damage back to 100！ | EA Forums - 13428543

I would like to say I wish you would focus on the main game dynamics before worrying about all the ins and outs. Redsec alone has so much of the basics you could be devoting your time to 🤷🏼‍♂️. 

That said I use recon frequently and I don’t always use it to “camp”. I adapt to what’s needed. I don’t care about the arc and this and that. I just prefer you make it work one way and make it do that well. 

I switch through all the sniper rifles. But currently the L115 is my least favorite and that’s just because there’s not much drawing me to it. One reason is it only has 5 rounds, 

The only gadgets I use are the drone, C4 and claymores. The claymores I only use in redsec and that’s because they don’t really do anything. Besides tell you where people are at. That goes for before they got nerfed as well. 
I don’t really understand what the point is to have gadgets that don’t do what they’re intended to do. 
No need to over complicate things and try to make it like another game. It seems like you overcompensate when somebody has a complaint.. Things weren’t that bad from the beginning . Just needed minor adjustments and to get all bugs out. 
Im sure the majority of your players would just be happy if things worked as they should. 
Just to leave it on a positive note, I dig the new map.

L115 - It seems the only circumstance I would ever use it over the Mini Scout is at 120+ meters. From what I can tell, it is CONSIDERABLY worse in literally every other way. And at 120+ meters, it having the lowest bullet velocity of any sniper feels a bit odd. Not suggesting it should be as high as 1000 or anything, but it just seems like a bit of a confusing design for me. A sweet spot at this range is awkward given how few maps have consistent, relevant sight lines at this distance. A lot of people are focused on the on-paper strength of the mechanic and not the fact that most maps seem to have been tailor-made to PREVENT you from taking advantage of it. Sweet spot kills are extremely infrequent in my experience, on both sides of the engagement.  

Progression comments, related to the new sniper: Locking the straight-pull bolt behind like 30 levels is ROUGH. I'm fine with it being unlockable, but after having gotten Sv-98 to rank 50, switching to the new L115 was a nightmare. It is so so so important to the feel of the sniper (and its firerate!) and I think it would be a lot more fun to have it moved up in the skill progression tree. 

Gadgets, C4! Requiring 4 to kill a tank from full health is...whatever. Sure. But C4 feels WILDLY inconsistent in this game, even when I throw 4 at the tank. I think this might be due to the anti-mine gunner upgrade which seems to delete C4? This interaction needs to be removed. C4 SHOULD be a viable method of taking out a tank, and it is ALREADY risky. It takes ages to stick 4 C4 on a tank, you are totally expose while doing so, the gunner has to not see you at all, and then if you want all of them to go off you have to retreat away safely. That's too much to get countered by a big indicator flashing on the gunner's screen and them pressing "clear mines". Same thing with the IR smoke. It just makes C4 way too inconsistent for how MASSIVE  of a risk it is. Also likely makes C4 jeeps not functional against these countermeasures, which is a really sad change. C4 jeeps ARE battlefield. Now that we finally have maps big enough to let us do it, don't give them a get-out-of-jail free card. I think you need to have a discussion with whoever it is at the team really hates C4 and wants it to not kill tanks ever. If you get killed by C4 in a tank, it is YOUR fault. That goes for every battlefield game, even prior ones without all these countermeasures. You beat C4 by paying attention and positioning properly. This is a crucial part of recon's kit in this game, and it has way too much additional, unnecessary counterplay to the point it almost doesn't feel functional.  

Also, I'm not sure if this is still the case? But I know you could previously use the suppression gun while in a heli to block missiles coming to it. If that's still the case I'd hope that'd be removed because wow you could just become invincible super easily with one friend to help. Blocking those rockets while on the ground is cool, being able to sit in the scout or transport and block them forever from above is not. Even if people don't take advantage of this now, as the game goes on, people will learn. 

Additionally, I disagree with those talking about removing the sweet spot! It's a fine mechanic, the game tells you when you're in a sniper's sweet spot (rainbow glint, very obvious) and you can choose to change your pathing around it. I think something important for you all to remember is that the average BF player's ideal role for snipers is that they are completely worthless and don't do anything ever, because they don't like being killed by them (just look at people in this thread advocating for BF3 SUPPRESSION to return...they want to win engagements with a sniper just for shooting in their general direction!) People suggest it makes sniping too easy, but I haven't really seen that reflected in the scoreboard at all! 

My advice on what to change:

- Ditch the sweetspot damage model, it's an odd damage model (even for a game) that artificially forces sniper rifles into too much of a niche role. Making them only good at certain ranges, and too weak outside of it. I get the thought behind it, but sniper rifles in arcade shooter games can never work exactly like their real life counterparts, so stop trying to so hard to force them into that manner of use. The other class weapons aren’t used exactly like their real life counterparts either yet that’s never considered a problem for some reason.

- Go with the classic and most logical damage model that every other weapon has, starting with maximum damage that gradually drops over distance. As a general rule, the lightest sniper rifles should have the fastest fire rates, faster reloads, but lower muzzle velocity and faster damage dropoff, whereas the heaviest sniper rifles should have the lowest fire rates, slower reloads, but faster muzzle velocity and slower damage dropoff. If any sniper rifles deviate from that rule, then be very careful to give them a sufficiently compensating trait. For example just doubling the ammo after the massive fire rate nerf like you did with the scout elite in BF4 is not going to cut it. I liked that weapon the most and it became totally outclassed by other sniper rifles in terms of all the most important traits like damage, fire rate and range after that.

- Better balance between sniper rifles, right now they are very poorly balanced and a lot of their most important traits totally contradict their intended role. The Scout Mini has too high muzzle velocity if it’s supposed to be a medium range sniper rifle. The SV-98 has the lowest fire rate, even lower than the M2010 ESR and the PSR, yet it’s intended for closer ranges than those two? The PSR has lower muzzle velocity than the M2010 ESR, that doesn’t fit it’s role as a longer range sniper rifle. The L115 is a massive lackluster sniper, the muzzle velocity is too low. As the heaviest sniper rifle, it should have the highest muzzle velocity and overall very high damage. Getting a just a 64 damage hitmarker for a medium or close range hit to belly or heart is too low.

-Give sniper rifles a limited ranged 1 hit kill to the torso, I’d say up to 20m. This is to make it worth the risk for sniper rifle users to get closer to the objective and still be able to make a difference provided you have the skill to pull it off. People have often claimed that this will make sniper rifles as good as shotguns up close, this is objectively false as sniper rifles have way worse hipfire reliability, lower fire rate and it’s not a 1HK to the entire body. Also some older BF games that did have limited close range 1HK for sniper rifles to the body never had this alleged problem that sniper rifles became as good as shotguns up close. Another major factor that's nearly always overlooked is that the movement in this game is very fast with soldiers having high running top speed and no momentum, this also makes it far more challenging to consistently hit targets at closer ranges for sniper rifles without getting killed yourself.

- If giving sniper rifles limited 1HK to the torso is out of the question, then at least increase their max damage to a near fatal level like 90 to the torso and 75 for a limb hit so that 1 or a maximum of 2 additional pistol hits are sufficient to finish off the target.

- Sniper rifles should have the highest muzzle velocity of all classes of weapons, if it's supposed to be the most optimized gun class for longest range, then there shouldn't be any DMR's, LMG's and AR's that have superior muzzle velocity like there are now. 

What to keep:
- No increased flinch that many keep asking for. BF sniper rifles never had much flinch and it doesn't fit this game because unlike Call of Duty where this idea came from, sniper rifles are not a 1HK almost anywhere on the body up to long range. Adding more flinch will greatly reduce it’s viability as you're nearly always getting shot at as a sniper, it will encourage snipers to be even further away from objectives to avoid getting shot at while aiming.

-No random bullet deviation suppression like in BF3, this will completely destroy sniping. Suppression should only cause increased sway and add a bit of visual blur and/or flickering at the most, it should not affect gun ballistics, only the player holding the weapon. Suppression effect should be stronger the larger caliber bullet is used.

- Glint should be subtly noticeable as it is now, even though I’ve never been in favor of the idea. It was way too strong post launch but nerfed to acceptable levels later on fortunately. Spotting a sniper at long range should require a bit of effort.

The portable laser designator is far too powerful. 9 seconds of lingering paint is unnecessary. You’re shining a laser at a vehicle, it should require constant tracking. 

I understand BF is not real life but it was fine in BF4 and other games, now it’s simply oppressive. 

The PLD will also paint through terrain which is frustrating when trying to play in a vehicle. 

Lastly, the tracer dart is rendered completely useless. The tracer dart should result in the paint effect lingering for around 30 seconds while the PLD should require constant tracking to keep the target painted. 

Please remove the auto-spot, target acquired training path, UAV overwatch training path, sweet spot, spot while down feature, add flinch (or suppressions I don’t mind) and investigate strafe readability.

I could be wrong maybe it was a bug but If I am recon I should not be gifted an easier time in performing my namesake. My opponent(s) may be playing very well: using cover, wearing appropriate camouflage and engaging in cohesive cooperation to manage the objective but as recon if they should be caught near the centre of my ADS FOV or if I land a shot on them then they are automatically spotted completely voiding their skilled efforts. The same logic can be expressed when a player incapacitates another player. If you lose a firefight you should not be rewarded with the ability to spot the player that killed you nor should you be able to mark his location, that’s what voice comms and text chat is for (I know this is not specific to recon alone but it is related). I get the feeling that these features were created to fix a problem that doesn’t exist with the idea that if I lose I’ll become angry that the game is hard and stop playing. That is not how mature people engage with games, it’s the opposite as such if you put in simplistic or easy mode game mechanics people will find more reasons to stop playing because your game will no longer be difficult for the right reasons. I can’t speak for others but when I get shot by a sniper in this game especially one with a silencer I am constantly reminded of the fact that they can spot me and alert their team to my presence by accident, I am not thinking about the skill of positioning or aiming for that role.

The whole point of pressing the spot button is to slow the pacing of the game down as you have something extra to do, and while it’s possible to cheat this by binding the spot button onto the ADS or fire button giving players a game mechanic that performs the result for you is not sending the right message. If you want the game to have depth then put assets in place that invite skill through the games ethos, for example by making spotting require holding the spot button for a period of time relative to the distance of the target while aiming at said target; emulating the idea of a soldier IDing an unknown or ambiguous target. You can give it a slightly wider cone of fire if the targets are very far away so that you can spot multiple hostiles that are grouped together without repeating the button holding for each.

Instead of giving the recon a magic UAV that they can summon with the press of button why don’t you allow players to access one that they can pilot via a physical asset and put it on certain maps? Battlefield: Bad Company 2 did this, players have to not only reach the location to use the tool but they have to learn how to fly and aim with it as well as maintain the security of the surrounding location with their team/squad because they can be killed while using the terminal. That is far more interesting and it’s far less individualistic, encouraging cooperation which is what your game is meant to be about.

With regard to strafing, I don’t know if it’s the speed, animation or transitional animation (if there is one) but strafing in this game for me is mostly unreadable such that if a player alternates left or right rapidly then I am unable to predict the direction to lead my shots to which then results in me just moving left or right rapidly to try and outlast my opponents bullets all while spraying and praying. Ironically it works against snipers and if that’s the way it’s supposed to be then I guess I’ve cracked the code and am on my way to being a pro but in my opinion this is pretty alien for a Battlefield game because it’s antithetical to being behind cover or using different postures, motions and gun attachments (crouch running with hand stop) to attack.

If people want to label it a skill issue and call me a noob that’s their choice but why did we not have these features in older games? Am I supposed to be in a state of constant horizontal motion or something and who complained about strafe readability 10- 15 years ago? Find me the posts. And I know Battlefield: Bad Company 2 had auto-spot as a specialization for recons but the sniper rifles took nearly 2 seconds to load each round between shots and you had to exit ADS to do it and as expressed strafe readability was not an issue in those games.

If there’s to be a discussion about visibility that’s fine I’m all ears, I’ll listen but having the game play itself or providing players with “win buttons” is not the answer otherwise what’s the point of Battlefield, who is this for exactly? Tell it to me, make me a believer because quite frankly I ain’t seeing it with this stuff.

L115 is quite nice overall, only strange thing about it is the muzzle velocity seems a bit low for something that has a further out sweet spot.

The smoke cloud with vehicles burning soldiers i understand, but it auto destroying C4 with no indication to the player is a bit irritating. If it did destroy the C4 but it still at least detonated as it was mid air in the smoke, it could still do a small amount of damage to the vehicle but if the player throwing the C4 was too close they could be in the blast radius, that would give clearer feedback to the player. 

As for Recon the auto-spot mechanic is a bit much, i'd like to see that removed and in it's place the return of the Target detector ( from BF4 ), same cost and attachment slot as the range finder. ( Sniper rifles, DMRs only ) Meaning the feature isn't removed from the game entirely, but players have to make a choice to have it over other attachments. 

Recon will be the better class to have the Deploy beacon if you change the training paths to be more distinct from each other. While i do see the benefits of it being with the Assault class, it has been historically a Recon gadget.  

Sniper training path makes sense as it's made for sniping and the beacon will be welcomed by those who want to make a little sniper nest overlooking the action as that's how it's used in past titles.

Spec ops feels a little lost as it's perks suggest a silent, nimble and aggressive playstyle which doesn't complement a sniper rifle at all. Giving spec ops buffs to suppressors and Carbines would make the class more proper " silent saboteurs or assassins " and with the deploy beacon it would cater for those players who prefer the more aggressive deploy beacon usage with Assault. Win-win. 

Could do something like this to the Recon gadget lineup. 

Recon open gadgets: Motion sensor, Laser designator, Tracer dart, Claymore, HTI-MK2. 

Sniper only gadgets: Sniper decoy, Recon drone. 

Class slot: Deploy beacon. 

Signature weapon: Sniper rifles. 

Spec ops only gadgets: C4, M320A1 FB, M320A1 SMK. 

Class slot: Deploy beacon. 

Signature weapon: Carbines.

The gadgets and weapons now compliment their unique playstyles. 

Hey team! I've been playing a ton of season 3, and I love the updates so far, aside from a few caveats I've mentioned in the season general discussion. 

Currently, Recon is the most "overpowered" class when it comes to passively gaining XP and points, so lots of solo players tend to lean towards Recon due to the passive XP gained by spotting, the Drone, and because sitting in spawn and sniping appeals to them. 

In a game like Battlefield, sniping from spawn will always be "an issue" but I do wish that the areas snipers can hide and camp within spawn were significantly reduced. I feel that for the most part, the map 'Contaminated' does a decent job, but still has lots of camping spots right outside one spawn. (the A-B side on escalation). 

Suppression inflicted on enemies using a DMR or Sniper Rifle needs to inflict some sort of screen blur and increased weapon shake. Aim Punch from taking rounds should also be included. Like previously stated, the Recon class is very appealing to new and inexperienced (or players uninterested in playing the objective) and it can be frustrating to run from objective to objective and see 6+ sniper glints all aiming at you. In previous Battlefield games, you could take some shots at a few of those glints and the "suppression effect" would throw off their aim enough for you to survive for a few seconds longer. However without this mechanic in Battlefield 6, firing in the direction of a sniper only gives them a clearer image of where they should be aiming, due to the suppression indicator on screen, and no blurring or aim penalty. Directly hitting a sniper (or someone using a sniper or DMR) with a round should inflict Aim Punch - a visible jerking of the player's scope and reticle, and throw off their aim. It would increase player survivability and make Snipers and DMR's more fun to fight against. 

I do believe that there should be a decrease in the amount of passive XP that recon players gain, due to the fact that a recon player can sit on the edge of the map, spot enemies, and still get more xp than anyone in the match - and never touch an objective. That's not necessarily to say that recon should be "nerfed into the ground", but more saying that Recon players should be encouraged to play the objective. 

Keep up the hard work, and I hope someone sees my suggestions!

The way I see it, there are three big "roles" Recon can fill: 1) sniping, 2) flanking, and 3) spotting.

First, I rarely snipe.  However, the great dumbing-down of sniping across the franchise's games has made it almost unenjoyable for me.  I much preferred being a less effective sniper in previous games (where optics had less zoom, map size increased travel time, and rate of fire tended to be lower) where it was more difficult, because my presence wasn't announced with a bullhorn if I took my shots carefully.  Instead, this game encourages none of the patience, stealth, or care that "sniping" implies, alternatively meaning "guy with sniper rifle who jumps in and out of cover."

Second, I love to play a flanking role with the "stealthy" spec ops style.  However, the current map pool often makes it difficult.  This is because map design choices have resulted in largely wide-open maps that give a lot of visibility of most of the map at a time, and also in spawn points that put controlling teams on the "flanks" looking in at exposed capture points, letting people who just spawned in shoot anyone trying to flank in the back.  When it works, it's fun- it's not very effective, due to how incredibly easy it is to flick and kill anyone in milliseconds- but it's fun.  It's a shame that we don't have access to the spawn beacon, which would let us do anything remotely tactical with the playstyle.  In the past, we could steal or sabotage important enemy assets like armor, jets, or the commander, but this game has none of that tactical depth.  Vehicles have also started to cotton on to the fact that playing in 3rd person and using thermal smoke makes them effectively immune to C4, so playstyle contributions are further limited there.

Third, spotting can be very interesting.  It's easy to see just how much more effective your team can be when there is large-scale spotting of enemies in cover.  (It's also disappointing how nobody who plays the game seems to know there is a button to do it manually, but that's another topic.)  The drone is extremely powerful, so it's difficult to argue that the long re-use time isn't justified.  The laser designator, however, is anemic in its role.  It has the existing weakness- advertising your position like a bullhorn.  As I've already discussed, maps in the game are designed to be wide open spaces with grand visibility, so it's a double-edged sword- you can more easily accomplish your role, but anyone with an SGX 150 meters away can take an interest and end your contribution in seconds.  It also has the new weakness of the shortened duration.  The issue here is that designation is now enough for maybe one missile.  Considering flares remain effective while painted ... its usefulness is limited if you can't continuously re-designate a vehicle.  This means that the targets that it's supposedly most useful against, fast aircraft which can use low ground cover, are now even less affected.  I genuinely wonder every time I use it, "am I contributing literally anything at all, or would the exact same thing have happened if the designator wasn't here?"

Specific bullet points of feedback I agree with / have:

• Sniping does not need or want sweet spots for body shots.
• Scope glare is a bad mechanic that does nothing but make tactical, objective-focused sniping more difficult and turn everything into a "shoot-off."
  • BUT, scope glare may be currently desirable as the vast majority of maps are wide open, empty spaces that dramatically over-encourage sniping.
  • If you must keep it ... surely we can revert to the previous game's function, where low-zoom scopes do not generate glare.  I recall that literally anything but ironsights generated glare on release, but have not tested this since.
• After-death location cameras are a huge detriment to any of the encouraged styles of Recon play, and discourage tactical choices like holding hidden positions.
• There is no officially supported way to practice with the throwing knife.  I want to use it, but it's genuinely a detriment without practice.
• Far too many weapons excel at mid to long ranges in weapon classes that should not; many assault rifles and sub-machine guns remain laser beams over 150m without significant damage dropoff, encouraging (or even mandating) peek and shoot play rather than gaining visibility of objectives.  It also makes me question the value of ever using a utility gadget instead of just sniping, where I can at least defend myself.
• I have never been able to actually destroy lock-on missiles with the new radio detonator gadget, it's just a slow way to see and detonate extremely close gadgets through walls.  The range is quite short.  Considering the low rate of charge, surely we can try increasing it as an experiment.
• The laser designator has had a persistent bug since launch.  It will often interrupt its own use by "unequipping" itself and re-drawing the device, resulting in lost locks.  It will also tend to place itself on the ground during use when that is not desired at all, often during the previously mentioned bug.
• The choice to limit the drone's usability when paired with C4 remains such a disappointment to me.  This kind of synergy is exactly what people want from a Battlefield game: freedom.  The persistent choices to limit freedom in other ways (like "safe zone" HQs) are a shame.
  • You might consider the feasibility of synergizing gadgets with complimentary functions, like using the upcoming jammer device with a drone, or reconsidering dropping C4 or grenades with a drone.  Perhaps the the radio detonator gadget's functionality can be added to the laser designator's range when used together.  I don't think anyone expects complete "realism" from this game.
• Limiting gadget use from transport vehicles is a shame for the same reason.  Not being able to designate or jam a target from a transport helicopter always seems bizarrely restrictive.
• Increasing the effects of suppression on high-zoom scopes would be welcome.
• Claymores without one-hit potential are quite reduced in value compared to both previous claymores and every other gadget.  Perhaps if the mines had additional functionality or additional stocks, they would be more competitive choices if a full reversion is not desired.

Let me counter by asking you the dev, what is your thoughts on the state of recon? I think that we as consumers should have the ability to ask where is this class headed?