Forum Discussion

stukapooka's avatar
5 years ago

A random discussion about alternate abilities and how they affect healers.

Alternate abilities and why I think they should return and why i believe they help certain classes

1. More gameplay variety

Alternate abilities allowed multiple ways to use similar abilities in different fashion such as rocket jump being great for vertically but leap allowed you to escape or close the gap easier.

Iron maiden allowed cactus to block killing blows from zpgs or stall browncoats much longer than the barriers at the cost of losing the potential to shoot over them at attackers and put many down.

Superbrainz could choose between specific ultra blasts that all excell and fall short in their own way.

Corn sacrifices crowd control for more damage in one area with his bigger better butter.

Artichoke and future parrot allowed drones to be better in direct combat in exchange for weaker air strikes.

Long bomb makes all stars have to play smarter to use it to its full potential and would reward them with a less notable explosive to lob at plants from safety but was utterly worthless up close.

Zpg was used to annihilate one opponent, usually rooted while multi shot sacrificed the damage for the capability to carpet bomb an area and deal damage to multiple targets.

Sonic mines allowed engineer to favor a more defensive playstyle but he could not easily defend against plants while on the move like he could with grenades.

Chomper sacrificed the goops ability to slow targets for massive damage from chomp cannon instead.

Combining different variants with alternating abilities allows gameplay in garden warfare to feel different every match as you never truly know what your opponent or allies have brought into the match and arent seeing the same handful of abilities every match.

2. Healers need advantages and drawbacks in their abilities.

Alternate abilities forced healers, especially scientist to choose between healing and offensive capabilities.

The heal beam allowed scientist to fight back and focus healing to one target but now he must stick with them to provide healing and cannot save himself while heal station allowed him to stay mobile and heal multiple targets at once but the station can be destroyed and the heal targets have to stay in a set area, putting them at risk.

Armored heal station heals slower but can take a much larger beating from enemies.

Compare this to bfn where he can heal multiple targets and stay on the move so there is no danger to his heal targets or him from staying in one area. The only downside is that he can't shoot.

Sticky explode ball could be used as traps and offensive weapons that could be destroyed while heal grenades supported the team better but had a timer before they went off so they were not an instant save me panic button for scientist amd his allies unlike in bfn where it activates instantly.

Energy warp sacrificed offensive mobility for the power to be invulnerable for a short time in hopes of reaching safety (don't be that guy in walnut hills though). Normal warps were also not instantaneously activated and could only go forward.

Heal flowers allowed sunflowers to support mutliple teamates and aid themselves while still at risk of moving too far away or having the heal flower eliminated, once again something they don't have to worry about in bfn as they themsleves drop sun while they can run away.

Rainbow flowers were also not as good as stock flowers in terms of burst healing but generated sun at a faster rate.

Dark flowers sacrificed healing altogether but are much tankier than their healing counterparts and are much more reliable in a direct firefight, however they cannot save you or your teammates.

Solar flare beam also sacrificed ammo, startup time, and more visibility for more damage which could be deadly to the sunflower using it or greatly beneficial.

Compare this to their bfn counterparts who do not have to worry about the setback of choosing between offensive and healing capabilities or worry about the time span between abilities and their activation such as the delay in warps that put scientist in danger/ heal bomb taking time to go off after being thrown instead of immediately being thrown at the ground or tracking allies for quick healing like it does in bfn.

These differences allowed greater freedom in the older healers as they could adjust for how they wanted to play the game rather than be forced into one specific play style which may not be favorable to every player. I even know multiple sunflower players who quit do to the lackluster base sunflower in bfn.

3. Some need to be better of course

The rainbow Heal beam and regular heal beam should be adjusted differently, maybe faster healing with less health being given or vice versa?

Hyper should just make a peashooter run fast while jump allows them to do just that. Make pea jump a ability usable from the start.

Give peel shield a cracking look to represent its health much like how the mood shield represents itself in colors.

More for the new classes.



Alternate abilities much like variants added more variety and strategy to the game as players now had to adapt to the strengths and weaknesses the various abilities would bring to their kit and I believe they should return in a new game as bfn forced one playstyle onto players and this does not reward variety or strategy.

7 Replies

  • Thanks for posting @stukapooka ! Glad to see other folks hanging around and bringing stuff to talk about up!

    I love alternate abilities in GW and GW2. Some need balancing still (multi-shuck is possibly the worst one right now, but others could use some love too), but I love having choices like this.

    Some I use all the time like Multi-rocket and Long Bomb (I've gotten some hilarious vanquishes in GW1 lately with Long Bomb), others I hardly ever use because they aren't that great (multi-shuck and the peashooter leap for examples). I wish they all were competitive and valid choices.

    I love the different drones, and lament that we never got the Engineer versions in GW2. The Bling alternates never really thrilled me even if I use them. Cacti have 4 drones to choose from in GW2, and while dark garlic is my favorite, it's nice to have choices.

    I used to use Energy Warp a lot as you could set off potato mines and spikeweeds with it, and be at no risk. It is OP in Wall-Nut Hills though. They should address that issue when this map is brought back in a new game. They essentially gave it to Electric Slide in BfN, but then also gave her the ability to heal in that mode with upgrades, I get the idea but in practice it's seriously OP and annoying.

    Some abilities like Chomp Cannon are fun to slip into once in awhile, while others like mega-heal ball are my go toos (I generally play a heal focused Scientist). I definitely want alternate abilities back in a new game, although many need to be balanced better.

    I vastly prefer the heal flower to sunny side up, and as it can be shot, it means zombies can deal with it if they want to, and it hands out more healing if left alive. The heal thingy of the Scientist being instant is too good, even if the mega heal ball heals a lot, I've been vanquished many times as it goes off just a little too late.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago
    @Iron_Guard8 You're welcome.

    The mega heal ball only heals 50 so it really depends for which class health classifies as a lot.

    Bling just looked good but besides the pylon mech for some reason was worthless.
    Pea jump definetly needs more love as hyper completely overshadows it.

    I feel like slide needs a unique ability rather than just stealing scientists and making it more powerful.

    We need more for the newer classes and a lot of them need buffs.
  • Iron_Guard8's avatar
    Iron_Guard8
    Legend
    5 years ago

    50 health is a big burst of healing, even for an All-Star that's a quarter of their health, and for an Imp it's 2/3 and 50% of a Scientist's so it's a nice heal but you have to be near it when it detonates so it requires awareness of where it is and when it's going to go off which makes it useful but you have to pay attention which I like. Wish it worked on bots and mechs though. It was very handy for the Spooky Squash Boss Hunt as an anchor for the Torchwood boss there, that's for sure.

    I've mentioned changing Slide's kit before, I'll eventually get around to her in my class discussion posts, but starting with older characters first.

  • BFN didn't totally sacrifice the variants of abilities, it just made that part of that system is in the form of upgrade, vampire spike weed, rocket leep, long bomb and others.

    Sometimes I think that these Abilities take part of the character's construction and make part of its gameplay a little meaningless, like dark flower or even bling pylon mech which is just an upgrade and nothing more.
  • Iron_Guard8's avatar
    Iron_Guard8
    Legend
    5 years ago

    @gametrieukNever been a fan of the bling stuff to be honest. Barring issues where they did (still do?) more damage than the basic version which shouldn't be a thing, they're just shiny. Didn't hurt anything, but not terribly interesting either.

    Some alternate abilities aren't used that much or are too good or too weak. Most soldiers use rocket leap, since who doesn't want to lose a little height to get 2 uses?  I like Dark Flower but I don't actually use it all that often, as the healing is generally more useful.

    I would like to have seen them do more with the upgrade system in BfN towards this end too. They do of course have some of this with stuff like you post and stuff like dolphin blasting and other abilities, but it could have been even better with more development. I still love that you can save multiple copies of a character in BfN with different outfits and builds, that would have been great in  the GW games too, could have builds to quickly swap to for alternate abilities. Was asking for it for years in GW2.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago

    @gametrieukExcept dark flower sacrifices healing and doesn't benefit your teammates.

    I agree that bling pylon shouldn't exist though.

    Long bomb in bfn just goes 22.5% farther where the ability in gw forces all stars to learn the map geometry and the arc of the bomb which can travel much farther than it does in bfn.

    Rocket leap in bfn just increases the distance your jump can go and doesn't force the soldier to learn how to deal with managing 2 jumps on a longer cooldown that sacrifice verticality for mobility.

    Vampire spikeweed in bfn has no visual difference in its apperance so there is no reason for a zombie to treat it differently from a normal spikeweed and doesn't force the chomper to sacrifice damage for health.

    It's 100% better than the base version and there's no reason to ever use stock over it in bfn.

    Alternate abilities in gw forced players to be creative and syngerize it with their play style to overcome their weaknesses. In bfn there is no drawback what so ever in using these so you might as well just grab as many good upgrades that you can stack together and spam them every match.

  • stukapooka's avatar
    stukapooka
    Legend
    5 years ago
    @Iron_Guard8 Only bling pylon mech did a bit more damage for some unknown reason, every other bling was just a reskin.

    Healing is genuinely better to use all around as sunflower especially in gw1.

    Rocket leap is good but there are times you do notice the lack in height when trying to get up somewhere.

    My problem with the bfn upgrade versions of these is that there is no way to tell when a character is actually running these abilities as gw had visual and stat changes to the abilities where in bfn there is no way to know that a bfn chomper is running vampire spikeweed because it still looks and acts the same way as a regular spikeweed and the he alts made massive changes far greater than how the upgrade system affects them which makes players adapt to the weaknesses of the abilities.

About Plants vs. Zombies™ Franchise Discussion

Zombies trying to enter your house? Keep them in check and discuss the best gardening techniques on the community forum.27,853 PostsLatest Activity: 35 minutes ago