Forum Discussion

9 years ago

Class Stacking, All-Star, and Citron: a thought

Hey all,

So I learned, being late to the party as usual, that Popcap has announced a nerf to the All-Star, but not a corresponding nerf to the Citron.

First of all I think All-Star should probably be left alone unless Citron is also going to be nerfed. The key way to nerf citron would be to roll back his damage increases while keeping the beam duration increase.

Back on topic, the reason why Citron and All-Star have been overpowered (but more specifically Citron) is because of their high health, high damage output, and insane abilities.

Citron's insane ability in particular is the EMPeach since with the damage boost it's nearly an "I Win" button when activated, and also foils anything a Super Brainz plans to do up close. For All-Star, the Imp Punt is a ridiculous attack that's nearly unavoidable since the bomb tends to latch onto you and ALWAYS does 150 damage if it hits with zero falloff or true splash damage. This was more evident in GW1 where stepping your big toe into the explosion of a chili bean or imp punt meant taking full damage, but I digress and think it's in poor taste to do this in a shooter.

Despite this though, at the start All-Star and Citron weren't really taken that much. They needed long periods of time to deal damage and had several weaknesses, namely Chomper has always (still is) been good at nabbing All-Stars and Citron was a huge whopping target for Deadbeard where his beam couldn't do sufficient damage.

TLDR Starts here:

But the real reason why I think we see tons of All-Stars and Citrons on the teams is not just their inherent power, but also because they are both ranged classes with 200 HP. If you haven't noticed in the patch notes yet, we've gotten damage buffs for everything. Sunflowers, Pirates, Electro Pea, all sorts of stuff got more and more damage buffs, with only the most broken things getting damage nerfs.

The more "damage creep" Popcap introduces to the game, the more people are going to gravitate to the 200 HP classes to survive all that firepower flying around, and the more the game's meta will shift towards burst damage vs healing and tanking, eerily similar to the 6 versus 6 competitive mode in another certain game with tons of silly hats.

In short, Citron and All-Star get OP when stacked because we can't chew through all the hitpoints, but Popcap wants to keep buffing damage which leads to a vicious game of musical nerfs. To better balance, we need to reduce damage output for both tank classes (at least Citron anyways) and stop giving needless damage boosts to character like kernel corn. If you're going to nerf All-Star, roll back those Citron beam damage buffs so we stop seeing tank escalation.

That's my two cents. See you in suburbia.

- ECM Atlas

12 Replies

Boolerex
9 years ago
The thing though is that all-star in his current state isn't overpowered expect for maybe tennis star (Which is considered like that for completely different reason that you cited) while Citron in general is OP not because he tank stuff but because he's just overall too versatile.

Most of the stuff that got buffed are thing that require accuracy which tank class are easier to hit with anyway. Exception being electro pea,which actually didn't have a great dps and relies at his big splash and shock damage to..Well do damage. He also didn't have a great ammo count neither.

Both Empeach and Imp punt are also only usable in close range. EMPeach arming time still mean that you get time to possibly escape or even prevent the citron of taking advantage of his stun. While Imp punt is still overall unreliable at time and generally need the imp to hug said target to deal the maximum amount of damage..

The recent upsurge of all-star use is simply because he's currently THE best class to deal with a citron currently. Nothing more nothing less. Let's not nerf him just becus he counter the current dominant class.
ECM_Atlas
9 years ago
@Boolerex wrote:

The thing though is that all-star in his current state isn't overpowered expect for maybe tennis star (Which is considered like that for completely different reason that you cited) while Citron in general is OP not because he tank stuff but because he's just overall too versatile.

Most of the stuff that got buffed are thing that require accuracy which tank class are easier to hit with anyway. Exception being electro pea,which actually didn't have a great dps and relies at his big splash and shock damage to..Well do damage. He also didn't have a great ammo count neither.

Both Empeach and Imp punt are also only usable in close range. EMPeach arming time still mean that you get time to possibly escape or even prevent the citron of taking advantage of his stun. While Imp punt is still overall unreliable at time and generally need the imp to hug said target to deal the maximum amount of damage..

The recent upsurge of all-star use is simply because he's currently THE best class to deal with a citron currently. Nothing more nothing less. Let's not nerf him just becus he counter the current dominant class.

Well yeah agreed, which is why I'd like them to try the damage nerf for Citron first.
Screion
9 years ago
Aside of the Golf Star, the All Star is very ineffective at long range, unlike the Citron now. And besides of the borderline OP Tennis Star, no All Star needs a nerf. Especially not the Hockey Star, Rugby Star or the legendary underdog - the Wrestling Star. Because those 3 are already hard enough to play.

Also i haven't been in a single game with lots of All Stars. Not a single one. Citrons however can make up half of the Plants Team now. So i cannot understand the reasons at all behind of this, besides that the All Star can be effective at dealing with Citrons - which is a result of Citrons being overused.

Also to mention that the Imp had been overused before the Citron, but greeted with more and more buffs instead of nerfs.

Popcap does better not listen to the outcry of the Citron casuals, that abuse the damn Orange Beam all day, but get salty about All Stars punting them because people get sick of Citron snipers.

It's the same reason for me now why i have to constantly counter-pick in matches, because of the masses of Citrons. Just like earlier, where i had to constantly switch to Pea Shooter to get rid of all the Mechs.
ShavedThronel0
9 years ago
@Screion wrote:

Aside of the Golf Star, the All Star is very ineffective at long range, unlike the Citron now. And besides of the borderline OP Tennis Star, no All Star needs a nerf. Especially not the Hockey Star, Rugby Star or the legendary underdog - the Wrestling Star. Because those 3 are already hard enough to play.

Also i haven't been in a single game with lots of All Stars. Not a single one. Citrons however can make up half of the Plants Team now. So i cannot understand the reasons at all behind of this, besides that the All Star can be effective at dealing with Citrons - which is a result of Citrons being overused.

Also to mention that the Imp had been overused before the Citron, but greeted with more and more buffs instead of nerfs.

Popcap does better not listen to the outcry of the Citron casuals, that abuse the damn Orange Beam all day, but get salty about All Stars punting them because people get sick of Citron snipers.

It's the same reason for me now why i have to constantly counter-pick in matches, because of the masses of Citrons. Just like earlier, where i had to constantly switch to Pea Shooter to get rid of all the Mechs.

Hocky star (ice) is the top 3 all stars I think you got it confused with the gaolie star (the one that shoots very fast and little damage)

Not sure why the allstar is getting a nerf. Its like they want to get rid of their mistakes of the past because in PVZGW 1 everyone used the allstar but not to shoot but to spam the abilities. Now with the imp and super brainz people can do it much easier with effortless impkata and gravity grenade that really do too much damage. And heroic kick and turbo twister really make it hard for the plants. (yes this is where the all stars ability spammers went)

The citron is only deadly if the person can aim if its just a noob than its just a pinata. The reason why the plants are winning now is because at least 75% of people have no skill at all. When the roses got nerfed people switch to the zombies and spammed imps and superbrainz because they are easy to use characters. Now since the superbrainz was nerfed hes gone, the imp finaly has a counter but its not effective against meches. The citron cannot 1 vs 1 a mech. Only the ice citron can. The iron citron with his mech breaker can only hit the mech with 3 shots before the mech vanquishes him. Peas are the real mech counter but citrons don't have the power to stop meches even though they are specifically against meches. Against everything else they are op.
Boolerex
9 years ago
@ShavedThronel0 wrote:

Hocky star (ice) is the top 3 all stars I think you got it confused with the gaolie star (the one that shoots very fast and little damage)

You're actually the one that confuse the two, Hockey star is the fast firing one,while Goalie star is the ice variant

@ShavedThronel0 wrote:

Not sure why the allstar is getting a nerf. Its like they want to get rid of their mistakes of the past because in PVZGW 1 everyone used the allstar but not to shoot but to spam the abilities.

??? Everyone used foot soldier back in GW1,not all-star

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWMM wrote

Now with the imp and super brainz people can do it much easier with effortless impkata and gravity grenade that really do too much damage.

Impkata do wayyy less damage then simply shooting and make imp super vulnerable during it, It really only useful to finish off people. Gravity grenade is OP yeah but huhhhhh it didn't do any damage neither lol

> The citron is only deadly if the person can aim if its just a noob than its just a pinata.

Didn't that apply for litterally everyone? Heck Considering he have a splash,he's not that hard to aim neither

> The reason why the plants are winning now is because at least 75% of people have no skill at all.

Just how it that even a argument

There just so much wrong in this post that I don't know that to say. The only thing I can agree with is that Citron isn't that effective at 1v1'ing a mech,but even then he round it up by Helping His team taking out a Z-mech as he can lock out of his abilities for a fairly long time with EMPeach. making him much easier to take out. Or can generally survive a Z-mech due to bunch of defensive options + citron ball to escape.
ScreenhogRSnail
9 years ago
@ShavedThronel0 wrote:

@Screion wrote:

Aside of the Golf Star, the All Star is very ineffective at long range, unlike the Citron now. And besides of the borderline OP Tennis Star, no All Star needs a nerf. Especially not the Hockey Star, Rugby Star or the legendary underdog - the Wrestling Star. Because those 3 are already hard enough to play.

Also i haven't been in a single game with lots of All Stars. Not a single one. Citrons however can make up half of the Plants Team now. So i cannot understand the reasons at all behind of this, besides that the All Star can be effective at dealing with Citrons - which is a result of Citrons being overused.

Also to mention that the Imp had been overused before the Citron, but greeted with more and more buffs instead of nerfs.

Popcap does better not listen to the outcry of the Citron casuals, that abuse the damn Orange Beam all day, but get salty about All Stars punting them because people get sick of Citron snipers.

It's the same reason for me now why i have to constantly counter-pick in matches, because of the masses of Citrons. Just like earlier, where i had to constantly switch to Pea Shooter to get rid of all the Mechs.

Hocky star (ice) is the top 3 all stars I think you got it confused with the gaolie star (the one that shoots very fast and little damage)

Not sure why the allstar is getting a nerf. Its like they want to get rid of their mistakes of the past because in PVZGW 1 everyone used the allstar but not to shoot but to spam the abilities. Now with the imp and super brainz people can do it much easier with effortless impkata and gravity grenade that really do too much damage. And heroic kick and turbo twister really make it hard for the plants. (yes this is where the all stars ability spammers went)

The citron is only deadly if the person can aim if its just a noob than its just a pinata. The reason why the plants are winning now is because at least 75% of people have no skill at all. When the roses got nerfed people switch to the zombies and spammed imps and superbrainz because they are easy to use characters. Now since the superbrainz was nerfed hes gone, the imp finaly has a counter but its not effective against meches. The citron cannot 1 vs 1 a mech. Only the ice citron can. The iron citron with his mech breaker can only hit the mech with 3 shots before the mech vanquishes him. Peas are the real mech counter but citrons don't have the power to stop meches even though they are specifically against meches. Against everything else they are op.

Everyone would play either Foot Soldier or Scientists in GW1. In fact, most of the time I was the only person as an all-star on my team usually.

Also have you used a Frozen Citron or Regular Citron even against a mech? Especially Frozen, you stun lock the thing, that isn't fair at all. Also, yeah, try fighting a Mech at long range and see how 'dangerous' it is. Also how is Imp Kata overpowered? 100 ammo....that does 3 damage each. And it is near impossible to hit one target with all of that. If anything, Imp Kata is underpowered and you are extremely vulnerable during it. And Gravity Grenade you can still attack during it, it doesn't even do any damage. Are you going to know say the sonic grenade is overpowered?

Citron is also good even in the hands of a newcomer. Less than rank 100s are dominating as him and their are high ranks on my team who even they are losing to Citron as well. Heroic Kick barely does damage and is a gap closer if anything and turbo twister is only deadly when you are in close range, it also makes Brainz very vulnerable to ranged attacks. Using your 'ability spam' logic, does that now make Chomper overpowered? Since he has to 'spam his abilities'.

All-Star was never overpowered in the first garden warfare, they even nerfed his long bomb out of all things, which I feel has an even smaller radius than it did in GW1 where it was nerfed. He was a sitting duck to cacti and chompers. Also, unlike plants, there was no heal beam in GW1, so he couldn't be pocketed.

If anything, Peashooter was the real definition of ability spammer in the first game. Everyone would hyper to the garden and spam sombrero bean bombs.

The only thing overpowered about the Imp is when the entire other team is him as spam Z-mechs, luckily after the times goes out, they are all helpless and get destroyed by a peashooter, rose, or citron.

I mean, honestly. I have lost games when most of my team were Imps, why? Because after Z-Mech spam, their came everyone was a helpless little Imp and the BBQ corn army rises, that is what. But I can't say I haven't one the game when their were a few Imps on the team, as a Z-Mech is a good defender still, just if your team isn't relying on it solely.
ShavedThronel0
9 years ago
@ScreenhogRSnail wrote:

@ShavedThronel0 wrote:

@Screion wrote:

Aside of the Golf Star, the All Star is very ineffective at long range, unlike the Citron now. And besides of the borderline OP Tennis Star, no All Star needs a nerf. Especially not the Hockey Star, Rugby Star or the legendary underdog - the Wrestling Star. Because those 3 are already hard enough to play.

Also i haven't been in a single game with lots of All Stars. Not a single one. Citrons however can make up half of the Plants Team now. So i cannot understand the reasons at all behind of this, besides that the All Star can be effective at dealing with Citrons - which is a result of Citrons being overused.

Also to mention that the Imp had been overused before the Citron, but greeted with more and more buffs instead of nerfs.

Popcap does better not listen to the outcry of the Citron casuals, that abuse the damn Orange Beam all day, but get salty about All Stars punting them because people get sick of Citron snipers.

It's the same reason for me now why i have to constantly counter-pick in matches, because of the masses of Citrons. Just like earlier, where i had to constantly switch to Pea Shooter to get rid of all the Mechs.

Hocky star (ice) is the top 3 all stars I think you got it confused with the gaolie star (the one that shoots very fast and little damage)

Not sure why the allstar is getting a nerf. Its like they want to get rid of their mistakes of the past because in PVZGW 1 everyone used the allstar but not to shoot but to spam the abilities. Now with the imp and super brainz people can do it much easier with effortless impkata and gravity grenade that really do too much damage. And heroic kick and turbo twister really make it hard for the plants. (yes this is where the all stars ability spammers went)

The citron is only deadly if the person can aim if its just a noob than its just a pinata. The reason why the plants are winning now is because at least 75% of people have no skill at all. When the roses got nerfed people switch to the zombies and spammed imps and superbrainz because they are easy to use characters. Now since the superbrainz was nerfed hes gone, the imp finaly has a counter but its not effective against meches. The citron cannot 1 vs 1 a mech. Only the ice citron can. The iron citron with his mech breaker can only hit the mech with 3 shots before the mech vanquishes him. Peas are the real mech counter but citrons don't have the power to stop meches even though they are specifically against meches. Against everything else they are op.

Everyone would play either Foot Soldier or Scientists in GW1. In fact, most of the time I was the only person as an all-star on my team usually.

Also have you used a Frozen Citron or Regular Citron even against a mech? Especially Frozen, you stun lock the thing, that isn't fair at all. Also, yeah, try fighting a Mech at long range and see how 'dangerous' it is. Also how is Imp Kata overpowered? 100 ammo....that does 3 damage each. And it is near impossible to hit one target with all of that. If anything, Imp Kata is underpowered and you are extremely vulnerable during it. And Gravity Grenade you can still attack during it, it doesn't even do any damage. Are you going to know say the sonic grenade is overpowered?

Citron is also good even in the hands of a newcomer. Less than rank 100s are dominating as him and their are high ranks on my team who even they are losing to Citron as well. Heroic Kick barely does damage and is a gap closer if anything and turbo twister is only deadly when you are in close range, it also makes Brainz very vulnerable to ranged attacks. Using your 'ability spam' logic, does that now make Chomper overpowered? Since he has to 'spam his abilities'.

All-Star was never overpowered in the first garden warfare, they even nerfed his long bomb out of all things, which I feel has an even smaller radius than it did in GW1 where it was nerfed. He was a sitting duck to cacti and chompers. Also, unlike plants, there was no heal beam in GW1, so he couldn't be pocketed.

If anything, Peashooter was the real definition of ability spammer in the first game. Everyone would hyper to the garden and spam sombrero bean bombs.

The only thing overpowered about the Imp is when the entire other team is him as spam Z-mechs, luckily after the times goes out, they are all helpless and get destroyed by a peashooter, rose, or citron.

I mean, honestly. I have lost games when most of my team were Imps, why? Because after Z-Mech spam, their came everyone was a helpless little Imp and the BBQ corn army rises, that is what. But I can't say I haven't one the game when their were a few Imps on the team, as a Z-Mech is a good defender still, just if your team isn't relying on it solely.

You were lucky to never encounter the allstar spam. Not sure what modes you play but on gardens and grave yards you see it everygame. The normal citron can lose against a mech if the mech knows how to aim, the ice citron can destroy any mech 1 vs 1. Impkata is overpowered because he gets a 20% damage resistance (or 100 lives when using it) and the hit box is smaller. Not sure what kinds of games you play against imps probably noobs who don't shoot after throwing you a gravity gernade.

Your basing skill of of rank not gameplay. Also the chomper dosen't spam his abilities. A quick burrow or goop and bite, spray, or swallow then the next target this is not ability spam.

Again your lucky you never played against these ability spammers who just imp punt, and f they missed they would tackle you.

The imps again your only playing against noobs that are imps your lucky to not face 5 on a team. And when their in your team once against noobs.
Boolerex
9 years ago
@ScreenhogRSnail wrote:

All-Star was never overpowered in the first garden warfare, they even nerfed his long bomb out of all things, which I feel has an even smaller radius than it did in GW1 where it was nerfed.

Actually I'm pretty sure long bomb got buffed at a way that he's more reliable to use then bouncing it out of a wall, also his "timer" before he's able to explode while touching a obstacle is much shorter...If you see what I mean.

@ShavedThronel0 wrote:

Impkata is overpowered because he gets a 20% damage resistance (or 100 lives when using it) and the hit box is smaller. Not sure what kinds of games you play against imps probably noobs who don't shoot after throwing you a gravity gernade.

Impkata being considered OP is the silliest thing I have heard.

You're just so vulnerable during it it really only useful to finish off someone with it if you're out of ammo,even with the 20% damage resist. In nearby every another situation you're just better off shooting them with your primary.
Anonymous
9 years ago
Approved
Someone here is really saying Impkata is op.

Seems that ranking on console means only invest the best amount of hours possible at stomping kids.

Newbie.
IronCatFish47
9 years ago
I don't mind the new Citron at all. Doesn't hurt the plants to have extra muscle, but if there has to be a nerf I would return his old crit box. That way he isn't too strong during 1vs1s.