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An issue of concern: Developer and Player relationships

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  • nuubal wrote: »
    I'm concerned to also read your admission to working closely with nVida on the attack locking bug. How about you work just as closely with the rest of us in defeating the auto-sim?


    Sorry that wasnt nVidia...

    Schaffa/Nvidia....
  • EE_Elephterion
    1800 posts Envision Developer
    Except you guys rarely post here, so this thread is the exception to the norm of interacting with a dev.

    I'm concerned to also read your admission to working closely with nVida on the attack locking bug. How about you work just as closely with the rest of us in defeating the auto-sim?

    Why does one alliance get so much access to the developers that the developers cater the game to them... but the rest of us don't get that level of access. It's not right.

    Like stated above, anybody can approach us with their feedback and ideas. And I'm online on the forum Monday to Friday. Maybe not during your hours, which is why I may not always immediately respond to every thread, but eventually I do. Or a moderator has already answered a question. Also sometimes I simply prefer to observe a topic developing before i jump in, to let the community share some more opinions. But I can tell you I'm there most of the time.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • nuubal
    40 posts Member
    nuubal wrote: »
    I'm concerned to also read your admission to working closely with nVida on the attack locking bug. How about you work just as closely with the rest of us in defeating the auto-sim?


    Sorry that wasnt nVidia...

    Schaffa/Nvidia....

    Still, nope
  • > @EE_Elephterion said:
    > There was another time where we had a talk with them when working on the post combat lockdown exploit. If there where any other personal chats they happened before my time with the developer.

    I think Tommy is referring to this. So who is 'them' then?
  • nuubal wrote: »
    nuubal wrote: »
    I'm concerned to also read your admission to working closely with nVida on the attack locking bug. How about you work just as closely with the rest of us in defeating the auto-sim?


    Sorry that wasnt nVidia...

    Schaffa/Nvidia....

    Still, nope

    So are you saying that EE_Elephterion was not telling us the truth?
  • On server T38, I'm currently holding a Resonator POI. On the description, it says "This point of interest is named in honor of the nVidia Alliance who won the first Command & Conquer, Tiberium Alliances World Championship Server on March 23rd 2014".

    I remember seeing that several years ago and yeah, I agree, winning a World Championship is a pretty big deal...but we're still honoring the win 5 years later on every new server released? And now we find out that the game Developers are discussing game mechanics with this same team multiple times since then? And that same team continues to go on to dominate server after server?

    I think I'm a pretty decent player, I play to win, but I also play for fun since I enjoy the game. I know several other top players who are the same way. But, it's concerning when 50 players are exponentially and consistently " more skilled" than everyone else during an entire 5 year time period...that's not an accident.

    Why are discussions taking place with this same team on game mechanics? I thought that was what this forum was for? Why limit access to Developers to just one team, address their comments and ideas directly, but other just as active players don't get this same benefit? One member above said this game was easy to understand and figure out, but why is it when one team figures out a new strategy that 'out performs' the World Champions, a patch is released to disable that strategy?

    I thank the OP for bringing up this discussion...it's eye opening for sure.
  • nuubal
    40 posts Member
    You asked about nVidia and Schaffa ^^

    The guys they talked to once played with Mara, but most of the time he manage his own teams.
    And yes I knew that he talked with them because short after I played with him on tib34 ;)
  • nuubal
    40 posts Member
    cldarnell wrote: »
    I think I'm a pretty decent player, I play to win, but I also play for fun since I enjoy the game. I know several other top players who are the same way. But, it's concerning when 50 players are exponentially and consistently " more skilled" than everyone else during an entire 5 year time period...that's not an accident.

    As a pretty decent player, what is the reason you are not #1, but still #23 is nice.
    Is there any setting on the server which I could have known more specific detail about? Or is it just the same server as every other server with 7 level moral? How long per day do you play this game? Like I said, it is just about time. The longer you simulate a base, the more effective you will be. I often see guys who jump to the front, simulate 5 minutes and then fire. The top 5 players simulate at least 30 minutes or even one hour for a single base to get a almost perfect shot. They sell and change lot of units for every attack. Its just the time you need to have.

    And farming outpost which is the main strategie on this server, well, do we really have advantage with any information of the devs? serious?


    And please tell me about the game mechanics you think we have detail from the defs? There are tools out there like "UndStrom" which optimize your bases. There are layout scanner which help you to find good layouts. (still you have to know what a good layout is, and still you have know how to use it)

    Send me your cncopt of your bases and I try to optimize it. Perhaps I find better setup.
  • EE_Elephterion
    1800 posts Envision Developer
    cldarnell wrote: »
    Why are discussions taking place with this same team on game mechanics? I thought that was what this forum was for? Why limit access to Developers to just one team, address their comments and ideas directly, but other just as active players don't get this same benefit? One member above said this game was easy to understand and figure out, but why is it when one team figures out a new strategy that 'out performs' the World Champions, a patch is released to disable that strategy?

    They asked nicely I guess? Not sure what answer you are looking for. I'm still not sure what benefit they have from using a voice chat over the forum or ingame chat. I can tell you they to not receive preferred treatment however. Neither do we make and game decisions based on just the feedback of one source alone.

    I can only reiterrate, we are always open to discuss feedback with anyone.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • pep823
    5 posts New member
    excellent tips of nuubal. To be good in this game you need only 2 things; Pascience (use your resources wisely) and fund. We will see if this year Nvidia, Nchanfla or Mara manage to win the world championship. Simply that the best one wins. Greetings to all.
  • Master161822
    21 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    As the Original Poster, I think I should try to bring the discussion back on track since guys are trying to deflect now.

    This is NOT about any individual player and why he/she is or isn't in the Top 10, how they build their base, how much time they take to sim, yada yada. As other players have said, this is about how the rest of the community is learning for the first time that a team has been having multiple private conversations with the Devs stretching all the way back to 2014.

    I shouldn't have to explain why this is a conflict of interest and naturally upsetting to players. If the situation were reversed, the ones defending this behavior would be singing a different tune.

    There is a difference between getting bombarded with messages from random players on the forum (delete-ignore-delete) vs. taking the time to go to an alliance's TeamSpeak to have a private conversation with a small group of guys whose input you trust, to ask them questions, to listen to their feedback, to answer their questions, etc. And doing this with the same group repeatedly. The claim that they have no more influence than any other player in this game deserves a quirked eyebrow of skepticism.

    This has caused a loss of trust and players are understandably unhappy. Trying to downplay it with the whole 'explain to me why what we did was wrong' defense doesn't help.
  • nuubal
    40 posts Member
    edited March 2019
    And still the question is, what benefit of this do we have with this? Do you think there is some hidden god-mode in this game? Or what?

    Perhaps Enigm or Elephterion want to share their number of messages they had answered the last year in this forum. There is no real different in writing messages or talking on TS. And also the fact that Enigm or Elephterion are NOT programmers or game designers, let me question, how they could gave us any advantage of anything.

    Yes we sometimes talk with them, also lot of threads in the forum here about gamemechanics, for example the tunnels. You find a thread where it was explained. And also we inform them about bugs or exploits. Remember the possibilty to farm player defenses? Did you like that "exploit"? We didnt. So we used several channels to communicate with them. Did you like the lockdown of players to be untouchable for pvp? We didnt. We communicated that on several channels. Did you like the massive prehitting with alts? We didnt. We communicated that on several channels.

    Everyone was able to "exploit" this stuff. This was an huge advantage for players who used it. Did you need skill for that? No, you didnt.


    I remember like hundreds threads in the forum about multiaccounting. Lot of players were complaining about. All we did was to report the players which were doing it. So that the developers can take a look and find a way to reduce it. I had another solution in mind for this. But at the end the gamedesigners decide how to implement it. Not even nVidia can change that. They informed us all via the forum how the new mechanism is working with 19.1. Everyone has the chance to test it on PTE or on Tib38 and give feedback. Lot of players did via forum or private message. The difference is only that we did it via TS.


    Sorry that some of you see a problem in this, but still I dont see it. I could have send them the same information via private message, but simply that would have take much longer. But at the end it would be exactly the same.

    nbl
  • EE_Elephterion
    1800 posts Envision Developer
    The claim that they have no more influence than any other player in this game deserves a quirked eyebrow of skepticism.

    This has caused a loss of trust and players are understandably unhappy. Trying to downplay it with the whole 'explain to me why what we did was wrong' defense doesn't help.

    I can see where this is coming from, but I'm not sure what I could say to make you believe otherwise.
    I understand that you sense a conspiracy here, but have you considered that the situation might be reversed? We simply accepted their invitation to talk to them directly BECAUSE they are some of the most longstanding players in the game, and not the other way around. They are not the only veterans for sure, but the only ones who approached us directly.

    Also I neither ignore or delete DMs.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • methuselah
    439 posts Senior Moderator
    I have very little to add here beyond this: What would be the point of the devs favoring anyone? I mean that seriously, the community in general should be very happy they take input, that is a good thing. In terms of the WCS though, and I'm not minimizing anyone's concerns here I'm simply saying what would the point be?

    I've been a TA player since the first day the game released and I've been a C&C mod forever (and it literally feels like forever.) I've never seen any favoritism internally. Please don't misunderstand, I know most of you don't really know me so my word means little.......but I've never seen a thing that even made me raise an eyebrow of suspicion much less anything more grave.

    I love that Elephterion is active in terms of communication with the player base. I hope it never, ever stops.
  • EE_Elephterion
    1800 posts Envision Developer
    Alright, I hope we get this sorted in a timely manner before the WCS. I try to look into the thread the next days but for now I'll wish everyone a happy weekend.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • aahahah the referee who talks to the players in private before the match?
    Cmon all know why……..lost tib 37 and want change rule for win again WCS changing the rules of the game before start.
    Good move, maybe next patch add new rule before start "wcs is opened only to players with WCS badge" :-)

  • My two cents:

    I can somewhat sympathize with both sides of the argument--hence, anyone is free to privately invite the devs to a discussion related to game mechanics; however, I also see how this, on the surface, can easily be interpreted as creating a preferential treatment and/or conflict of interest.

    I work in IT (App/DB development) and understand how important it is to value customer feedback and relations. I applaud the developers for being proactive with their users and community on game exploits, enhancements, etc... However, as what others said regarding the concern that was raised, participating in private discussions with only a specific party may be a bit too intimate. I think the right approach here should have been Envision declining such invitation (regardless of who it's from) and to force the inviting party to voice out their questions/concerns/findings, especially related to game mechanics, via a community medium such as the forums so that the public is also made aware of such info so that they don't feel like one team has advantage over others and avoid any conspiracies and ideas of favoritism.
  • kOeGy
    18 posts Member
    hey ppl who cant play the game!

    Why do you still complain? The wcs wont have morale, so you can keep up with your gameplay which needs nothing else, then much time, much money & a bunch of multiaccounts to compensate the lack of skill you have.. You should be happy right now :)
  • kOeGy wrote: »
    hey ppl who cant play the game!

    Why do you still complain? The wcs wont have morale, so you can keep up with your gameplay which needs nothing else, then much time, much money & a bunch of multiaccounts to compensate the lack of skill you have.. You should be happy right now :)

    like you in 37..............first week 10 account
  • @kOeGy Hey person who runs from pvp in the game!

    It's a public forum and people have the right to complain just like you guys did about multi-accounting. Now speaking of which, now that Senti brought that up, yes I remember you at the start of the game in Tib37 when you were in SE sector (before you jumped to NW), you did have many alts that you were using to dig out POIs and also prehit bases with them. I even remember you leaving your alts there to hold on a Tib POI for Ugly Eagle since they still had bubbles. Talk about skills without using alts lol. You're laughable man.

    P.S. I think you're that CiC who ran during pvp time right and killed only bunch of small bases. Yeah that's right you are that guy. You sure got skills, man.
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