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balance between nod/gdi

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  • kOeGy
    18 posts Member
    Yes, why don't we all play nod cause gdi sucks? :D gdi is more challenging and for competing in the top ranks you need to have a team which supports you. gdi is worse:
    1. on worlds with FA on (def needs to be 1-2 level higher then nod to withstand the attack of forgotten)
    2. moral worlds on (Nod is best in farming, you need less repairtime and can shoot 3 outposts where gdi can kill 1 because less simulate time),
    3. Killing structures in general
    4. Upgrades for the late game units
    5. pvp offense


    It's fine when there are some advantages and disadvantages between early & lategame. But these facts i just mentioned, won't change at all and that's sad. There is no late game for gdi, nod can do everything better and i don't know why people don't wanna change something to balance these 2 fractions a bit more!

    And please dont talk about PVP. The only good thing in PVP is that gdi can stun inf and vehicles in defence.. Nod has stronger tanks, inf & air

    So yes, gdi has a use: Sell your offence, build up a defence with all upgrades and place your base in front of your pvp cluster :D
  • Kaiser30
    34 posts Member
    edited July 22
    kOeGy wrote: »

    There is no late game for gdi, nod can do everything better

    I really don´t know how anyone can disagree with that fact! With all the anti-pvp changes made its all about farming. Sorry - but everybody who claims that NOD has no big advantages here has no clue at all.

    Post edited by Kaiser30 on
  • Well, that's the balance right?

    GDI = Advantage early game (Short-term game).
    NOD - Advantage later game (Long-term game).

    We saw this in WCS 2019. GDI players basically spearheaded the digging to the center. I don't count cherrypickers because they just plain suck (You know who you are). There are maybe 10 players I know that play NOD and can keep up with GDI to the center and that's because they are excellent simmers.

    When WCS settled down, NOD players in Schaffa and AB eventually outgrew their GDI counterparts on average, but it still took several weeks.

    The takeaway? If you're GDI, you should hope and pray to get to the center, and be stronger than NOD before NOD researches sally upgrade. Afterwords, you're screwed. :)

    Caveat: The dynamics of the game has changed a bit with NAPs going to level 60+. This extends the game time even on FA worlds which means that top NOD players will get late game upgrades before the center which does put GDI at a disadvantage.
  • Mediv88
    21 posts Member
    Short (ok it got long..) my point of view.

    I played both NOD and GDI on multiple worlds with different settings.


    PvE, malus world:
    This setting is basicly farming as many outposts with as much ressources as possible each day.

    Nod:
    -Easier 1 shots of easy-medium outposts. Only because the Vertigo shoots one row.
    -Low simulation time for easy-medium outposts. (~1-10 min)
    -Lower repair time for easy medium outposts. (cobra shield)
    -Very easy farming in late game with Salamander with leech

    GDI:
    -Less 1 shots of easy-medium outposts. Hawk shoots more then one row. So very often its not possible to make the 1 shot, because lots of buildings, even if the defense layout is easy.
    -Higher simulation time for easy-medium outposts. (~1-30 min)
    -Higher repair time (no shields on units)

    If you put a GDI and a NOD of equal skill into a field of outposts. The Nod will always have a better kills/kp, and kills/repair time ratio. If any of those "I only play NOD" thinks otherwise, I would like to challenge you to try out GDI on a malus world and try to farm outposts.

    The only very short time, GDI has a small edge. Is the time between third and fourth base, where the GDI has sniper + commando. But this is already offset when Nod gets his Sniper.

    Conclusion: Nod will have more ressources, and will always grow stronger.


    PvE, FA, no malus:
    This setting is getting to the middle as fast as possible, because the POI bonus are far more superior then base production.

    NOD:
    -Better defense against forgotten. Nod needs less towers in the defense -> less tiberium -> more growth
    -Nod Rocket squad has 1.5 range, which makes their defense far better against air
    -Actually struggles between third base and sniper, because of the high offense - defense offset, the cobra shields loose their advantage

    GDI:
    -Far worse defense against forgotten. On every world I played, GDI needed 2-4 more towers to compete with Nod defense against FA.
    -GDI Rocket squad is a joke. 1 Wasp kills 3-4 more GDI rocket squads, then it would kill nod rocket squads.
    -Is actually equal if not better in digging then NOD from start until Nod gets their sniper.

    Conclusion: If in any setup, this is the one GDI and NOD are the closest in terms of PvE until mid. While GDI has an easier time shooting bases with 1,5 range Paladin, and early sniper. They have to invest more into defense to not die to FA. But this equilibrium breaks once Nod gets their Sniper aswell.


    PVP, pre late game (no salamander or defense updates):

    -Here we would have to look into 3 scenarios:

    1. Shooting someone inside a cluster with support:
    -Same as farming outposts, because Nod has a single row Vertigo, they can hit the HQ with less shots.
    -GDI with their spread damage needs more time, and because of support this will result in more failed attempts.
    -While Nod needs 40 sec for their vertigo to reach the HQ, the GDI commando needs far longer. Means Nod is able to shoot 2 if not 3 bases at the same time, while GDI is not. Means if your alliance has a NOD shooting the enemy cluster, and they have a GDI. You will always win, if both players are of equal skill.

    2. Defense in a cluster
    - Because of the better range of the Nod rocket squad, and better on point damage of the black hand the defense of Nod is slightly better. While I still think NOD def is better here, I dont think its that huge.

    3. Shooting 1v1 without support.
    -Only 1 word: Venom. With this single unit, every Nod player will easly win a 1v1 with a GDI. While Nod only needs 1 unit to get through. GDI needs to get their units through 3-4 times.

    In both scenarios, Nod is the clear winner.


    PVP, late game (salamander and defense updates):
    1. Shooting someone inside a cluster with support:
    - Same as above. Vertigo needs less time.

    2. Defense in a cluster
    - Finaly a huge advantage of GDI. If they are good in anything it is their defense in super late game with all upgrades.

    3. Shooting 1v1 without support.
    Even with the better defense of GDI in late game. The venom is still superior most of the time in disabling your enemy. (If both players are on equal footing).



    Final conclusion:
    -GDI sucks in finishing bases (outposts, or players) in comparison to Nod.
    -GDI will loose every 1v1 against an equal Nod.
    -GDI late game defence is a beast, but it doesn't help if they still loose any 1v1, or cant shoot anyone in a cluster or farms far worse with more time investment then NOD


    -> So like the owner of this topic I suggest to address this issues with buffing the GDI Commando to offset the disadvantage of Hawk vs Vertigo.
    -> Give the Orca more HP to offset the disadvantage of GDI defense rocket squad vs NOD defense rocket squad.
  • Mediv88 wrote: »
    PvE, malus world:
    Conclusion: Nod will have more ressources, and will always grow stronger.


    PvE, FA, no malus:
    Conclusion: If in any setup, this is the one GDI and NOD are the closest in terms of PvE until mid. While GDI has an easier time shooting bases with 1,5 range Paladin, and early sniper. They have to invest more into defense to not die to FA. But this equilibrium breaks once Nod gets their Sniper aswell.

    Final conclusion:
    -GDI sucks in finishing bases (outposts, or players) in comparison to Nod.
    -GDI will loose every 1v1 against an equal Nod.
    -GDI late game defence is a beast, but it doesn't help if they still loose any 1v1, or cant shoot anyone in a cluster or farms far worse with more time investment then NOD

    -> So like the owner of this topic I suggest to address this issues with buffing the GDI Commando to offset the disadvantage of Hawk vs Vertigo.
    -> Give the Orca more HP to offset the disadvantage of GDI defense rocket squad vs NOD defense rocket squad.

    Conclusion 1 Response: On morale worlds NOD clearly has an advantage. I will not debate that.

    Conclusion 2 Response: Once NOD snipers are researched, I believe NOD regains equilibrium with GDI. Why? Even with cobras + shields, GDI has overall better defense knockdown power. The amount of RP researched per hit that a GDI gets versus NOD is extremely high. GDI can usually research most offense and defense researches long before NOD finishes offense and defense research. Sure, the tradeoff is that NOD has better building knockdown power, but GDI generally can get through to buildings easier and with less RT usage (provided army and RT buildings are designed correctly).

    Final Conclusion Response:
    * I agree. GDI sucks at finishing bases, but in terms of total combat runs for total base (barring cherries), GDI and NOD are equal with a slight edge to GDI for more RP gained per Forgotten base, and less RT per base used.

    * I disagree. With a correctly formed defense (all things being equal and assuming supports kick in) GDI is equal to NOD. The main takeaway here is that GDI should design their PVP defense for strong venom counter which includes high air SW, placing flak towers inline to the CC (most important).

    * In support of my above statement, GDI will generally get their late-game defense researches way before NOD, and generally means that 1v1 GDI and NOD are equal until NOD is able to get through with venom.


    In terms of what koegy has suggested, I would support increasing the HP of the orca to balance out the benefit of the NOD venom in PVP.
  • Mediv88 wrote: »
    -> So like the owner of this topic I suggest to address this issues with buffing the GDI Commando to offset the disadvantage of Hawk vs Vertigo.
    -> Give the Orca more HP to offset the disadvantage of GDI defense rocket squad vs NOD defense rocket squad.

    How's about changing the nano-tech upgrade of GDI and have it attack with the same range of Nod... Nod could also have Vertigo's range increased with an upgrade as well. I mean what use is the nano-tech upgrade for both bombers?

    Orca feels that it needs an HP and/or attack buff. Is it's EMP grenades that useful? I would be far better if it was switched with another upgrade or its given 3 charges for 3 separate vehicles.

  • This Thread is 10 days old - have you seen one input about that topic from the person in charge? No. They comment in other "smaller/unimportant" Threads on a daily basis - but not here. So its a waste of time to think about corrections of the game.

    There will be no more significant changes (cost-benefit calculation). The change in prices was the last cancer stick for that game. Now they don´t even care about the use of the "pro-sim (different thread/german forum)". Need i say more?







  • gamerdruid
    3490 posts Moderator
    Kaiser30 wrote: »
    This Thread is 10 days old - have you seen one input about that topic from the person in charge? No. They comment in other "smaller/unimportant" Threads on a daily basis - but not here. So its a waste of time to think about corrections of the game.

    There will be no more significant changes (cost-benefit calculation). The change in prices was the last cancer stick for that game. Now they don´t even care about the use of the "pro-sim (different thread/german forum)". Need i say more?
    I don't read or moderate the German forum so don't know about that accusation, but, would you rather they read the comments and take them back to others in their team or make some unhelpful statement saying "we'll look at this". I'd rather they got on with the job of improving the game. They do have plans, otherwise why would they be rolling out patches and working on 20.3? The plans that they have may not fit in with what people desire, but, that is the nature of owning a game v playing a game.
    I am not an employee of EA/Envision. The views expressed are my own!
  • EE_Elephterion
    1501 posts Envision Developer
    edited July 23
    I can tell you that we are reading this thread as well as any other. If there is no input from us then its because we got nothing to comment.
    When it comes to community suggestions we have to carefully vet them, because we all know, they often come from heart. Meaning they play to the payers favorite's strengths & weaknesses - but changes we implement should fit well into the bigger picture.
    Post edited by EE_Elephterion on
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • kOeGy
    18 posts Member
    edited July 23
    Kaiser30 wrote: »
    This Thread is 10 days old - have you seen one input about that topic from the person in charge? No. They comment in other "smaller/unimportant" Threads on a daily basis - but not here. So its a waste of time to think about corrections of the game.

    I don't think that the mods have a clue of the game and maybe it's not their job.

    When it comes to community suggestions we have to carefully vet them, because we all now, they often come from heart. Meaning they play to the payers favorite's strengths & weaknesses - but changes we implement should fit well into the bigger picture.

    If there is no trust in my opinion and knowhow of the game, instead i'm getting told that I do this because of selfish reasons.. I cant help it :D
    Just do an survey like before WCS 2019, where 2-3 of our russian ""friends"" got their multies and voted in their favor =)

    Anyone who knows the game, would agree my statements at least by 90% of it, even if the person doesnt like me :D. Maybe the balance stuff is only intersteting for the top 50-100 players, but these people are also the reason why the game is still running.

    My suggestions were simple and they were my first and last attempt (if it doesn't get heard by anyone who is in "charge) to change the game to a bit better one.

    There are so many good ideas, like the one mediv thought about in his thread (which only got spammed and you can't report mods :/:D ). If there won't be any changes or real tries to think about it, just tell us, then we don't waste our thoughts about this game anymore
    Post edited by kOeGy on
  • EE_Elephterion
    1501 posts Envision Developer
    kOeGy wrote: »
    If there won't be any changes or real tries to think about it, just tell us, then we don't waste our thoughts about this game anymore

    I think an earlier comment already pointed out that we DO listen to feedback and implement ideas. Smaller changes are simply less time consuming to develop than bigger and bolder features, like a balancing rework. Especially if its going to be perceived as acting on the behest of a select few vocal individuals.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • Kaiser30
    34 posts Member
    edited July 23
    When it comes to community suggestions we have to carefully vet them, because we all now, they often come from heart. Meaning they play to the payers favorite's strengths & weaknesses - but changes we implement should fit well into the bigger picture.

    Bigger picture? So let us know what are your plans for the future! Atm most guys got a notion that there is no one!

    Our suggestions come from heart /favorite strength&weakness? Really - wow - thats a nice killer phrase to stop any further discussion!

    As Koegy mentioned -> do a survey so that everybody is involved!

    I promise you will be surprised by the explicit results!



  • Especially if its going to be perceived as acting on the behest of a select few vocal individuals.

    How many individuals had been necessary to change the ruleset of Wrath 26 two month after the start?
    Correct ->6 :o

    As mentioned: DO A SURVEY!
  • AlkalyneD4
    57 posts Member
    edited July 27
    Kaiser30 wrote: »
    Especially if its going to be perceived as acting on the behest of a select few vocal individuals.

    How many individuals had been necessary to change the ruleset of Wrath 26 two month after the start?
    Correct ->6 :o

    As mentioned: DO A SURVEY!

    Hope you are not serious when you compare a malus change and balancing rework. Especially when the majority of players want this malus change on every malus worlds except when they are loosing (Same players want a malus change when they are winning, and doesn't want it when they are loosing on same worlds settings), W26 is just a new kind of world with higher bases and this malus change was really necessary, because players don't want to play a world that will last 8 month for pve + X months Pvp.

    Balancing is a huge work in a game, they can't just ask players which new upgrades to make, they need lot of work on their side to balance things without messing with the full game.
    This is not the first thread about balancing, they will not implement it because this game does not have big updates anymore. Except maybe if 90% of the players want it ... not even sure that this game will have a new big update... Not because they don't care, but because of the cost of this kind of update.


    New update after 10 days to see how hard it is to play GDI on an ACTIVE FA world that started more than 1 month ago (so everyone have main upgrades already):
    WuxbQj.jpg
    Only counter argument to explain why they is so many GDI top10 if it's that's hard to play GDI on FA world are
    "level is not high on this world" => level does not matter here. I see way more top players that are switching from NOD to GDI than the opposite on FA worlds.
    "yes but on these dead and farm worlds it's the opposite" => I think everyone agree that NOD is better than GDI at farming, so yes, on these worlds you will see more NOD

    I'm just here to say that on FA worlds, last world I played GDI AND NOD and it was way easier to play with GDI until PVP. And I don't know how someone that have no problem to play top1 GDI can say the opposite ?

    On worlds without FA yes totally, I will never play GDI because it's way easier with NOD. If it's possible to have a balance rework only on farm worlds, then yes, I agree 100%.
    Post edited by AlkalyneD4 on
    AlkalyneD4, cnc-map.com/ccta-stats.com developer
  • AlkalyneD4 wrote: »

    Especially when the majority of players want this malus change on every malus worlds
    -> WRONG

    W26 is just a new kind of world with higher bases and this malus change was really necessary, because players don't want to play a world that will last 8 month for pve + X months Pvp.
    -> WRONG...from day 1 everybody knew that it would be a long world. Changes had been made because of some individuals!

    This is not the first thread about balancing, they will not implement it because this game does not have big updates anymore. Except maybe if 90% of the players want it ... not even sure that this game will have a new big update... Not because they don't care, but because of the cost of this kind of update.
    -> CORRECT - there will be no changes because the game will be closed soon....by the way: i guess only 5-10% of the players are visiting these forum (if at all).

    However - i´m no longer interested in discussions here because it´s a waste of time. The game was nice for a long time but now its time to say goodbye. Hope that everybody with half a brain is reasonable not to spend that much money for a boring browser game.

    bye



  • kOeGy
    18 posts Member
    Still, you post a screenshot of a world, where the whole top 20 consists out of wing wing players, never seen a bad top ranking like that

    Gdi defence is worse then nod defence when its about forgotten attacks, so gdi is better on FA off then FA on.. The best gdi settings would be attacks off, morale off.. But sorry, who enjoys these worlds? I don't

    But as Kaiser said, its useless to discuss because only <2?% of users show up in this forum.. And even less of these users have any clue
  • jbl3ck
    66 posts Member
    Now be patient @kOeGy ... You must've known there will be trouble if you try to bring changes... especially big changes as the faction balance.

    As far as i'm concerned, I like seeing the GDI lovers complain... I can still remember how GDI lovers bragged a few years ago.
    I guess some have bigger vocal chords then others... must be the "bells and whistles" upgrades that GDI has (as someone said a few years ago).
  • > @EE_Elephterion said:
    ....... but changes we implement should fit well into the bigger picture.

    @EE_Elephterion
    Please describe the bigger picture (future) of that game. Thx
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