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Relationship between Hit Points and Damage

@Devs

Could someone explain the relationship between hit points of a base building, and offense/defense unit to the damage of a offense unit?

I've been doing some experimenting in PTE and I realized that even with vertigo's having damage higher than a Construction Yard, an equal level vertigo will not take down a Construction Yard of the same level. This includes a straight run on the Construction Yard.

Can @EE_Elephterion or someone provide some additional information on how damage and hitpoints are used? Is it supposed to be equal or does 1 hit point equal x amount of damage points.

Replies

  • SpeirFein wrote: »
    @Devs

    Could someone explain the relationship between hit points of a base building, and offense/defense unit to the damage of a offense unit?

    I've been doing some experimenting in PTE and I realized that even with vertigo's having damage higher than a Construction Yard, an equal level vertigo will not take down a Construction Yard of the same level. This includes a straight run on the Construction Yard.

    I've noticed this before. You can't destroy a CY with one vertigo at the same level. Maybe the reason behind this is that Vertigoes only drop half their load per building... you will quickly notice if there's a building behind the CY, it usually gets destroyed before the CY. Run some experiments and see if the CY gets destroyed after the other building does. Maybe the vertigo needs to be levels above the CY to truly 1 shot the CY, otherwise your going to need 2 to take the building down.
  • EE_Elephterion
    1464 posts Envision Developer
    Hello Commanders,

    interesting find with this divergence in values. I'll see if this is a bug with how the value is calculated in the game or if the interface is just very confusing with what it tells you in this place.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • it is a feature, not a bug
    vertigos (nod) and firehawks (gdi) have a rule that splits damage between multiple buildings along the way
    not sure exactly, but feels something like 75%/20%/5% for 3 targets
    therefore there is a limit on what fraction of the total damage load can be applied to any particular target
    if there is only one target, it does not get more than a fraction of the total load
  • @chertosha,

    That explains it! I looked in the arsenal part of the game, and this info is definitely not mentioned.

    @EE_Elephterion, could you provide what the damage rules are for vertigos and firehawks? I think this would be very important information to add to the information of units under the arsenal tab in-game.

  • chertosha wrote: »
    vertigos (nod) and firehawks (gdi) have a rule that splits damage between multiple buildings along the way
    not sure exactly, but feels something like 75%/20%/5% for 3 targets

    Well, that would explain why both bomber planes deal absurd amounts of damage to structures like busters and CY's. Just curious though, can a flak be taken down by either vertigo or Fire-hawk? I know with Fire-hawk its possible in sets of 2 or more, but vertigo?

  • can a flak be taken down by either vertigo or Fire-hawk?

    It only depends on the levels. A 30 vertigo will easily kill a 20 flak :) and won't get damaged much
    SpeirFein wrote: »
    I looked in the arsenal part of the game, and this info is definitely not mentioned.
    @EE_Elephterion, could you provide what the damage rules are for vertigos and firehawks? I think this would be very important information to add to the information of units under the arsenal tab in-game.

    A lot of things are not mentioned in the arsenal. For example how much extra hp does a cobra shield give? It can give from 15% at very high levels to 40% at very low levels! And I'm sure putting a formula for that in the arsenal would be neither possible nor desirable. Most of the upgrades are undocumented. After all, what would one need that information for?

    Also, a lot of behaviors are undocumented and not very logical, for example infantry units would go into buildings territory, but would prefer to attack vehicles first, and only then unload on buildings. Some units such as cobras do move away from damage and towards second row of buildings, while others stay at max distance from buildings and do not move away from damage.

    Just think of it all as the secret ingredient which adds unpredictability and excitement to simulation. If you have figured them out it can sometimes help you build up attacks.
  • chertosha wrote: »
    It only depends on the levels. A 30 vertigo will easily kill a 20 flak :) and won't get damaged much
    Wow, talk about high level differences. You think a lower level vertigo can crush a flak? This would be like level 27 or level 25 vs level 20 flak.
    chertosha wrote: »
    A lot of things are not mentioned in the arsenal. For example how much extra hp does a cobra shield give? It can give from 15% at very high levels to 40% at very low levels! And I'm sure putting a formula for that in the arsenal would be neither possible nor desirable. Most of the upgrades are undocumented. After all, what would one need that information for?

    The cobra shield acts as a buffer against units like flak, scrap-bus and mutant missile squads. Use them correctly and you can easily halve aircraft repair-time.
    chertosha wrote: »
    Also, a lot of behaviors are undocumented and not very logical, for example infantry units would go into buildings territory, but would prefer to attack vehicles first, and only then unload on buildings. Some units such as cobras do move away from damage and towards second row of buildings, while others stay at max distance from buildings and do not move away from damage.

    Just think of it all as the secret ingredient which adds unpredictability and excitement to simulation. If you have figured them out it can sometimes help you build up attacks.

    Wow, talk about being really unpredictable! A clutch of militants can easily destroy most basic forgotten units from Scooper to Scrap-bus and Bowler, though it takes more militants to take down a single bowler.

    Maybe another weird thing to note is that all defensive vehicles cannot crush infantry. Checking the rarely available replays shows that they might be able to, but this might need confirmation.

    Another thing to note is that the defensive Reckonner can damage structures! I mean, what is it doing!?! Is the driver crazy or does the driver like hurting himself alongside his crew?
  • A lot of things are not mentioned in the arsenal. For example how much extra hp does a cobra shield give? It can give from 15% at very high levels to 40% at very low levels! And I'm sure putting a formula for that in the arsenal would be neither possible nor desirable. Most of the upgrades are undocumented. After all, what would one need that information for?

    A formula isn't what's needed. Rather, the capabilities of each unit would be preferred or perhaps a general description of the relationship between damage, hit points, and ammunition. And perhaps with a better understanding of how the units work, players can provide feedback and improve on the game or offer suggestions for new units if it doesn't make sense for a certain unit to have certain capabilities.

    I still don't know how ammunition impacts the capability of units. Does it differ between base structures and defense units? These things can still be known without hurting the randomness of the game.

  • Shinerplunderer
    229 posts Member
    edited June 23
    SpeirFein wrote: »
    I still don't know how ammunition impacts the capability of units. Does it differ between base structures and defense units? These things can still be known without hurting the randomness of the game.

    Well, when it comes to ammunition, only vertigoes and firehawks are affected as they throw their limited ammunition by 40%, 30%, 20% and 10% or something like that.
    A Vertigo can go through so many defense structures and base buildings that they run out of ammunition before they get a chance to reach the construction yard.
    Other units like Militant Missile Squad, Scorpion, Kodiak and Juggernaut have unlimited ammunition while on the defense area. As soon as they step on the base area, they have limited ammunition.
  • Shinerplunderer
    229 posts Member
    edited June 23
    This is what I meant by "A vertigo can go through so many defense structures... ... that they run out of ammunition:
    bo89v1w5ei5s.png
    By the time the level 12 vertigo reaches the CY, it only deals 1 damage... like really (the other point of damage was from venom's). 1 damage it feels so insulting and frustrating. If only there was a luck based POI that forces the CY and DF to spawn lower than usual. I'm sure it would be the most coveted POI as it will help players a lot.


  • EE_Elephterion
    1464 posts Envision Developer
    This is what I meant by "A vertigo can go through so many defense structures... ... that they run out of ammunition:
    bo89v1w5ei5s.png
    By the time the level 12 vertigo reaches the CY, it only deals 1 damage... like really (the other point of damage was from venom's). 1 damage it feels so insulting and frustrating. If only there was a luck based POI that forces the CY and DF to spawn lower than usual. I'm sure it would be the most coveted POI as it will help players a lot.


    With an attack layout like that you also have to keep in mind that your Vertigos are gonna tank damage from the MG Nests, a tighter escort might proof beneficial, as well as sending the Vertigos in a line instead of next to each other since they only attack targets in their row, unlike Firehawks.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • True... the problem here is the ridiculousness of the situation. I tried to destroy most of the missile squads and weaken the rest of the base while trying to bring the vertigoes in. The vertigo to the very right was at full health when it arrived at the base. There were simply too many buildings/defense structures that by the time it reached the CY, the Vertigo somehow shot a pellet instead of a grenade.
  • EE_Elephterion
    1464 posts Envision Developer
    Then i'd advice for a healthier mix of units perhaps. Some Anti-Infantry vehicles or infantry should help you get rid of the AA troops.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • Thanks @EE_Elephterion. If I were to recall, I think during that time, I only had an airport and no Hand of Nod. It was very early on and I think I didn't continue with the attack. In all worlds I play, I usually have a mix of units and I always try to optimize my attacks in a sense of smaller repair time and more research points. There were attacks that were more ridiculous than this. Once I tried to destroy a base with only vertigoes in the PTE. It was successful, but very tedious in repair time.
  • gamerdruid
    3429 posts Moderator
    Yes, unless you have a very high positive difference between the repair building and the units it is to repair, an army of one type of unit is always expensive.
    I am not an employee of EA/Envision. The views expressed are my own!
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