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balance between nod/gdi

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kOeGy
18 posts Member
edited July 14
Hey folks!

I think many of you guys know me. Im playing Tiberium alliances for several years, won the 3 last WCS as member for nvidia and cic together with Takman1979 for Schaffa. Besides of that, I count to the best players of this game :P .
What makes me a bit sad, is that the game didn't have any game balance changes the last couple of years. Nod is much more stronger then GDI in nearly everything, except maybe the midgame of worlds without malus. GDI gets theirs snipers 2 days earlier and the paladin range is nice.


BUT
1. Nod is the best in farming outposts or even bases. The Vertigos are the best weapon of nod when its about killing the CY, Gdi has AT LEAST the double amount of structures infront of the CY. The Gdi commando is only 10% stronger then the nod one, but compared to the nod bomber
it's a joke. We dont have to mention the Hawks, who drops their whole ammo while flying above a wall.
Therefor: Please buff the damage of the commando. I think 20% more damage will be a nice spot. Not to weak, not to strong.

2. Nod has the best Upgrades in the game.

Mammoth: Ye well, everyone is laughing about the upgrade the mightest tank in the game, the mammoth. It's totally useless, it isn't a upgrade you are saving your research points or anything. Avatar has lifeleech, it's godlike! Mammoth can run over walls?
My suggestion: Give the mammoth the predator update (shields would be to op :D). Flat 20% more damage would be nice, then they can compete with the upgraded avatars lategame (still nod will be stronger farming outposts with low amount of repairtime due to lifeleech)

Kodika: The upgrade sounds nice, but in reality it isn't good. The % of HP converted to it's shield is too low. The only good thing u can do atm with it, to protect your sniper who fights against another sniper. Anything other then this, it's useless.
My suggestion: I don't know the correct numbers, but when the kodiak shield is at the moment 10% of the kodiaks hp, it needs to be doubled at least! (it won't be op, a mammoth protected by the kodiak will deplete it still under 1 second (: )

Nod has the strongest 2 upgrades on their most expensive units
Gdi has 2 upgrades which you normally dont research because its a waste of RP

3. Air domination due to cobras

Ye well, what shall i say. Everyone knows how good a cobra with shield is. It does not only provide 40-50% more hp, no.. It deals the whole time 100% damage till the shield is depleated. This means in farming outposts less repairtime and in strong bases you still can kill a mammoth in 2 rows where GDI needs at least 2x3 rows :/
gdi has the problem, that all air units except the kodiak, aren't tanky. The orca update can be nice, if it doesnt get killed till it reaches the mammoth/scrapbus. Paladin is in a good spot, due to his range he has kinda low damage but thats fine (one of gdis advantages)
My suggestion: Buff the Orca HP about 20%, then it can compete a little bit more with the cobras.

4. Defence and the domination of Taxi offenses

For ages now: "if you cant kill your enemy in 3 hits, just build a taxi offense and kill him in 60 hits" :D
What is a taxi offense? Well, it consists some reconers and inf/snipers.. You put the inf into your reconers and attack a PvP base which has full support --> your reconers gets killed instantly and the infantry plops out with 100% hp, so you can kill the base step by step
Nod is the only fraction who can build proper taxi offenses (due to invisible infantry, which is strong and doesnt get revealed by anything)
My suggestion: There is one super useless defence unit i never have seen in my playtime: the defence reconer/guardian. Let's give them a job, which makes taxi offenses as well more unattractiv: Both units reveal invisible units in a range of 2,5!


These are only a small amount of changes I thought about. I don't want GDI be better then NOD or even be overpowered.. But ~ 70-75 of the player base is playing NOD, because of the fact that is much stronger. These changes would help GDI , to convince some players to try out GDI again. NOD will still be better in many things, I didn't even mention the venom's in PvP or the specter which deals about twice the damage of a pitbull.

greez koegy


Edit: Please like if you are the same opinion, so it gets some attention!
Post edited by kOeGy on

Replies

  • gamerdruid
    3490 posts Moderator
    edited July 13
    I would add, don't change the settings for existing worlds! Leave them as they are and change them for new or special worlds like the firestorm worlds. B)

    I am not an employee of EA/Envision. The views expressed are my own!
  • @kOeGy

    humble as always😉

    I agree with him that there is no balance between NOD and GDI for ages! He has mentioned a lot of correct disparity’s.

    Instead of changing unimportant objects like the use of support weapon - that nobody really want or asked for - you should concentrate on the crucial aspects of the game (balance, PVP - atm it is only a boring farming game, some new strategys - see input from Mediv for example in a different thread).

    At least i would expect a comment here from the person´s in charge (today you guys have make numerous comments in different threads).
  • NivaCat
    9 posts Member
    edited July 15
    @kOeGy

    He is totally right in his claim, and many developers had been tested both fractions in Weta Digital, FuGenX Technologies in India, Tapadia Tech in India, they found out the game is not balanced because nod has more advantages compare to DGI so I will not go for full comparison but let us summarise our requests with 2 points

    1) Give the mammoth the predator update (shields would be to op :D). Flat 20% more damage would be nice, then they can compete with the upgraded avatars late game (still nod will be stronger farming outposts with a low amount of repair time due to life leech) .

    Well agree with him 100%, common EA developers it is not that impossible task to switch between the two units upgrade !! we are not asking to create a new script to upgrade the mammoth from scratch we are asking to switch between the existed upgrade which is already there. the mammoth upgrade is not that good if we compare it with predator upgrade but the issue is the Predator is weak than the mammoth for that give the mammoth some real power equal to Avatar.

    2)My suggestion: Buff the Orca HP about 20%, then it can compete a little bit more with the cobras.

    15% to 20% it will be a great help for GDI fraction. If we compare Orca vs Cobra as KOegy mentioned Cobra has way better performance, so for that we request (A)either to increase the damage power of the Orca by 15% to 20% which is not a hard task for the developers or (B) to increase the range of Orca equal to Paladin with ability to freeze infantry not only vehicles which need real efforts from the developers, so the first option is way easier than 2nd for the EA developers.

    We hope the EA developers will look to this claim seriously and take our suggestion under consideration & we hope EA push these changes from the new coming worlds

    Thank you

    -N-






  • Vacunator
    1 posts New member
    Nice POVs mates. Besides that, my only suggestion: match the precision of the antistructure units for excellence (verts on nod and commando on gdi). Verts attack in a single vector. Why not put that feature in the gdi command?
  • Soixie
    457 posts Member
    NivaCat wrote: »
    @kOeGy

    He is totally right in his claim, and many developers had been tested both fractions in Weta Digital, FuGenX Technologies in India, Tapadia Tech in India, they found out the game is not balanced because...

    Congrats researching 3 companies that have absolutely nothing to do with this game nor the creator or any relationship whatsoever to Electronic Arts. Their "findings" along with $5 might buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks. You might be alleging a "review" based on EA providing open source code back in May for other games, but again, not relevant herein.

    The game is more than balanced and any advantage one faction has over another is outweighed elsewhere. In the future, validate your sources and cite them or don't use them at all.
  • Well, regarding the situation between GDI vs Nod, I kind of agree that GDI is in a tight spot... If only they're upgrades were worthwhile.
    The Mammoth doesn't need the predator upgrade cause its firepower is already strong. The issue with the Mammoth is that it would easily succumb to both rocket-fists and busters. My suggestion is to buff its upgrade to a whole new level. Instead of it being able to crush walls, it should be able to crush all sorts of barriers and infantry alike.
    It will slow down against rocket-fists, but most infantry should be flattened under its threads. Also the Mammoth is so dense that it would dent anti-tank barriers with ease. I mean, can any vehicle survive running straight into anti-tank barriers?
    I don't really have issues with Kodiaks cause I never got a chance to use them. Mammoths I used them before on an very old world (never got its upgrade), but I do understand how their upgrade is supposed to function.
    The grenades that Riflemen, Pitbull and Orcas have are quite annoying. You can only use them once per unit in each attack. I would suggest either scrapping the upgrade entirely or buffing it to three charges instead of one.
    Also as a whole, I noticed that GDI has a lack of RT reduction upgrades (like shields and so on) and Nod has a lack on range (GDI vs Nod, 7 vs 5, venom doesn't count as it would still move forward regardless of the situation).
    Some alternate upgrades would be ideal here, but they would increase by 25x if one of the upgrades is chosen. I just want some options on what o research, like it would be somewhat mutually exclusive, if you pick one, the other would take a longer time to research.
  • Kaiser30
    34 posts Member
    edited July 16
    Soixie wrote: »

    The game is more than balanced and any advantage one faction has over another is outweighed elsewhere.

    That´s not true - there is no balance between GDI and NOD notably because of the Updates. Koegy already mentioned a lot of correct issues.

    I suppose most of you agree that because of all the ruleset changes the game has changed into a boring farming game. To quote an example:

    You have 500 CP + 24h rep.time for shooting outposts/camps -> if so a good NOD player has about 40 kills because he can easily shoot with 0-30 minutes rep time. Its obvious that a GDI player can´t keep up at this sector because of rep-time problems.

    So please let me know where this BIG and CRUCIAL advantage is outweighed. I really don´t see that!
    Post edited by Kaiser30 on
  • kOeGy
    18 posts Member
    I just made some suggestions, which can be changed easily. Of course there can be some different ideas, like the mammoth regenerates 1% of its life per second ( there are many c&c games where the mammoth regenerates its life). It's important for me, that it gets a good upgrade, not a bullshitupgrade like "trampling walls"

    Same for the kodiak, the shield hp is just to low. Still with buffed upgrades, GDI can't compete with the late game upgrades, nod has (double lifeleech). There are some walls/structure defences in the base/outpost? Oh nice, just stack 2 high leveled salas behind each other and the base is gone.
    Nod:
    10 seconds of simming
    30 minutes repair time
    Attack lasts 1 minute
    Gdi:
    5 minutes of simming
    1:45 hrs of rep
    2 attacks which last together 3-4minutes

    Did i even mention pvp? Or that gdi defences in PvE needs to be 1-2 levels higher then the nods one to withstand?


    I can't take people serious who say that nod/gdi is balanced
  • I don't think Nod is that much powerful, it depends...

    On Forgotten attacks worlds, lot of players want to play GDI now, I played both at the same time, my GDI account was stronger than my Nod account. GDI is way stronger on medium to hard bases,NOD players can do a better job by hitting only cherries.
    Of course NOD is better when you only pick easy bases.

    Firestorm 14 is a cherrypicking world so yes, Nod is way better here.
    And Malus world, Nod is better too because now it's 90% farm.
    But with these GDI changes, GDI will become too OP on forgotten attacks worlds.

    GDI defense sucks without upgrade, but GDI defence upgrades are better than NOD upgrades.

    Take an example on last FA world Tiberium 46 :
    ir5vy8a82x5q.png

    Top rank is full of GDI because GDI are stronger on FA worlds.

    So even if FA is the only world where GDI can perform better than NOD, it's not easy to balance because if you buff GDI units, then NOD will totally disapear from these worlds.

    I'm surprised because you don't play Malus world, and on FA world you have no problem to outperform NOD players.
    And I will not play NOD anymore on FA world because it was way easier to play last FA world with GDI.
    AlkalyneD4, cnc-map.com/ccta-stats.com developer
  • Top 20 / last worlds:

    Wrath 26: Nod 18 GDI 2
    Tib 44: 15-5
    Firestorm 13: 16-4
    Tiberium 43: 16-4
    Wrath 25: 13-7
    Wrath 24: 18-2
    Tiberium 46 -> that week is only a few weeks old and the ranking will change for sure!

    All worlds have one detail in common -> Nod Player top ranked with big distance to the first GDI player

    "I don't think Nod is that much powerful, it depends..." -> WRONG! Why? See previous posts!
  • kOeGy
    18 posts Member
    Good job, a screenshot of a world where Effe is on rank 3 :D:D:D:D Come on, dont make me laugh x)

    As i said, gdi has 1-2 little advantages midgame like the paladin and the early sniper, but thats it.
    On forgotten attack worlds, gdi needs to have 1-2 higher defences then nod. In the lategame (with upgrades) the gdi def is equal to a nod defence in PVP, except of anti taxi where gdi is better (due to pitbulls)

    GDI SUCKS in pvp except vs gdi (because of the orcas, gdi defence has only 1,5 range anti air)..
    Avatar deals more damage, has more hp & costs on the same level 30% less then the mammoth
    Cobra has a nice 40-50% shield based on its hp, orca dies till he gets to the missle squad (vs nod)
    Venom can tickle the CC, nice synergy with tanking cobras
    Sala --> when there are buildings in the defence it gets to the buildings.. Kodiak update: to weak

    Vertigo vs gdi commando.. Dunno, everyone knows that gdi "sucks", why do we have to discuss it?

    These changes wouldn't even touch nod in anything.. Nod will still be better in killing the CY (vertigo 0,5 range)
    Nod will still be farming king due to lifeleech and low repair time
    and nod will still be king in PVP due to venom, strong avatar/cobra and being fast on CY with vertigos

  • Soixie
    457 posts Member
    Kaiser30 wrote: »
    Soixie wrote: »

    The game is more than balanced and any advantage one faction has over another is outweighed elsewhere.

    That´s not true - there is no balance between GDI and NOD notably because of the Updates. Koegy already mentioned a lot of correct issues. ...
    So please let me know where this BIG and CRUCIAL advantage is outweighed. I really don´t see that!

    One faction is great at farming, the other is great at PVP. The "issues" brought up in this thread are nearly 10 years old, so please excuse the majority of the community ignoring them. Especially since these "issues" get removed in Pay-to-play and as you approach level 65.

    500cp and 1.5d RT? The minimum play package to be considered "adequate" in PVP is the monthly bundle @ 1k cp / 2.5D RT. I did have a fellow CIC running 300cp / 2.5D RT, flip flop with me at #1 player, but we had no PVP as we controlled the server. On one of my PVP servers, you will get smoked by the top 10 if you run anything less than 2k cp / 10d RT.

    History has proven that anyone screaming "balance" is new, under level 50 and isn't playing the game anywhere near to it's potential. Get research to 100% and obtain 25+ bases first.
  • Soixie
    457 posts Member
    edited July 16
    kOeGy wrote: »
    I just made some suggestions, which can be changed easily. Of course there can be some different ideas, like the mammoth regenerates 1% of its life per second ( there are many c&c games where the mammoth regenerates its life). It's important for me, that it gets a good upgrade, not a bullshitupgrade like "trampling walls"

    Same for the kodiak, the shield hp is just to low. Still with buffed upgrades, GDI can't compete with the late game upgrades, nod has (double lifeleech). There are some walls/structure defences in the base/outpost? Oh nice, just stack 2 high leveled salas behind each other and the base is gone.
    Nod:
    10 seconds of simming
    30 minutes repair time
    Attack lasts 1 minute
    Gdi:
    5 minutes of simming
    1:45 hrs of rep
    2 attacks which last together 3-4minutes

    Did i even mention pvp? Or that gdi defences in PvE needs to be 1-2 levels higher then the nods one to withstand?


    I can't take people serious who say that nod/gdi is balanced

    1. Change is close to impossible to perform, there is nothing easy about it. Code changes regarding balance is akin to changing the foundation of your home from slab to pier and beam. Balance was performed in the first few years, but doubtful we'll ever see one again.
    2. The primary reason no change will come is because this title is no longer in R&D/groth phase, but a maintenance phase. The expense required simply outweighs any minuscule advantage.
    3. Perform research to 100%, reach end game and obtain 25+ bases to gain a qualified perspective on balance and everything this game has to offer.
    4. I can't take people serious who's player score is under 1 Billion.


  • 5. they just killed the game with the new payment method, no need to do further adjustments.

    some of the changes would have been a nice try on firestorm world.
  • EE_Elephterion
    1501 posts Envision Developer
    5. they just killed the game with the new payment method, no need to do further adjustments.

    some of the changes would have been a nice try on firestorm world.

    Which appears to be an error, causing the website to present the wrong option to players. This will be fixed soon.
    Envision Entertainment Community Liaison
  • 5. they just killed the game with the new payment method, no need to do further adjustments.

    some of the changes would have been a nice try on firestorm world.

    Which appears to be an error, causing the website to present the wrong option to players. This will be fixed soon.

    Well, I hope it would be fixed soon. At least there's a change on the game, wish there were more significant changes like more units to choose from in the offense and defense slots...

  • Which appears to be an error, causing the website to present the wrong option to players. This will be fixed soon.

    thanks for your feedback, looking forward to the fix.

  • xWas01x
    1 posts New member
    kOeGy

    And who forbids you to play NOD ? You win the worlds playing GDI, so why do you need an extra edge? Most of your friends play GDI. And most of the people responding to your suggestions are your colleagues. You have a mammoth that shoots farther than Avatar. You have a paladin that shoots further than the cobra. And most importantly, you can put more units on the defense. You want an extra advantage in PvP and you write under the guise of PvE. Sorry, poor english
  • xWas01x wrote: »
    kOeGy

    And who forbids you to play NOD ? You win the worlds playing GDI, so why do you need an extra edge? Most of your friends play GDI. And most of the people responding to your suggestions are your colleagues. You have a mammoth that shoots farther than Avatar. You have a paladin that shoots further than the cobra. And most importantly, you can put more units on the defense. You want an extra advantage in PvP and you write under the guise of PvE. Sorry, poor english

    He is still playing GDI because he know that on the worlds he is playing (FA worlds) GDI is actually equals, or better than NOD, I see a lot of players switching to GDI, me included because it's way easier. (except when you are cherry picking like KOegy, actually don't know why he is still GDI for this reason)
    And comparing top20 players on finished worlds or Malus world will of course show that NOD is stronger at farming, everyone know that.
    On last active FA world there is more GDI in top 20 than NOD it's a fact, they are in bases 44 so it's actually the old endgame level of bases, we will see what new worlds size with lvl62 bases change.

    But if you buff some GDI units like Orca then yes, no doubt that GDI will be way stronger than NOD on FA world.
    AlkalyneD4, cnc-map.com/ccta-stats.com developer
  • I think the balance for Base shooting is very good.
    A base is basically a bunch of problems stuffed together that require certain tools to be solved. A mammoth covered by a SAM and a flak is something Koegy would let others kill, but for those who need to kill that - they won't send in cobras. For this kind of problem Mammoth are the best choice. For another problem Paladins are best, for a third one you want cobras and on another one Avatars are the best way to break the problem. For medium and difficult bases GDI is usually a bit stronger than NOD. On one hand because they get some of the strong tools to use out of the box or way earlier than NOD and on the other hand, because GDIs units are more based on 2.5 range which lets you outmaneuver the defense you hit more easily and you can cause more damage with the same offense level. But yes - on easy bases or on very special problems NOD is stronger, simply because they can avoid some unnecessary structure killing and can bypass parts of the defense more easily.

    The biggest problem is OP farming. NOD has all the tools for farming efficiently. And GDI players need to be super active and watch for those 25% easy OPs that they can kill with hardly any RT efford.

    In PVP the difference is not that big. I don't agree that the NOD defense is stronger. Stunning vehicles is pretty strong and stunning infantry as well. NOD has the stronger Taxi offenses, GDI has the much stronger anti taxi defenses. GDI has stronger flaks, has stronger anti vehicle infantry and while the anti air units can only hit in 1.5 range they can damage significantly in 2.5 range with the upgrade. Without the upgrades the GDI defense is weaker, but after the upgrades it is a bit stronger.

    On offense GDI vs NOD is not that poorly matched - you have an AoE structure killer that can easily kill any front structures, you have mammoth with great trample damage and 2.5 range. And the damage vs inf is not bad at all. Yes the avatar has about 20% more hitpoints and 20% more trample damage and that surely helps.
    For GDI air units - if you build a line of orcas and stick kodiaks in between for the shield they can cause a lot of damage. And they wait and kill the units and don't just fly over them.

    So the only part in PVP where I see GDIs with a clear disadvantage are Taxi offenses.

    I would suggest to not buff or nerf the commonly used units for either faction for PVP, but rather change the underused units. The recent artillery changes are a step in the right direction.
    And I think if you buff underused defensive units you could address the few disadvantages that GDI actually has in PVP.
    1. MG Nests: Give them an air stun upgrade like forgotten have it
    2. Guardians/Reckoners: You could let the units inside actually shoot as well - stealth militant hitting a guardian would result in the guardian and the rifleman inside to shoot as well.
    3. Attack Bikes: let them actually move through units
    4. Predator/Scorpions: Give them an additional close range defense that damages ground units in 1.5 range. Simply to incentivise the use of 2.5 range units against those tanks.
    5. Artilleries: They need either more damage or less defense points consumption.

    These changes would help GDI slightly in defense, since they have the better units to hit vehicles. And it will change the defenses from mainly infantry based + a few structures to a well rounded mix.
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