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Proposed Fixes for online cheating

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I am sick of playing H2H UT games and watching players come out in the exact same formation on offense and defense every play and running the exact same 2-3 plays all game. They throw to the exact same 2 receivers all the way down the field and if you come close to stopping them once or twice they just go to the next cheap formation and run that the rest of the game. I have played Madden for a while and it is not as enjoyable as it once was. I have had some good, clean games with players, but the majority come down to whether or not I can stop one play being run on offense and it is not fun. I have a few proposals.

1. Pass play call limit online. This would simply end the abuse of 2-3 specific pass plays. Each player gets to run 3 specific passing plays max over the course of a game and it is no longer available to pick in the playbook. I know, some people will argue that does not happen in the NFL and I will run out of plays. However, in the NFL, you run the same play twice and defenses begin to read and anticipate throws and it turns into big plays for the defense because they know it is coming. And there are hundreds of plays in playbooks and run plays would not be limited so over the course of a 4 min quarter game, you would not run out of plays. Of course, if Madden allowed the computer to have a memory of plays run against and allow them to adjust more every time a play was ran, this would have the same effect but I believe this to be more difficult to accomplish.
2. Stop allowing 4 down tries in unrealistic situations. How many times have you had an offense stopped at a 4-10, 4th and 7 and they run a cheap play and they get the first down? A simple solution to increase fairness is to no longer allow regular plays to appear on 4th down. There would be exceptions such as any 4th down within 2 minutes of either half and if trailing by greater then 7, any 4th down in 4th quarter. Also, I would concede to having any 4-1 to 4th and inchs be able to be attempted at any time during the game. It is obvious that a player should not be able to go for it on a 4-7 from their own 20 yard line in the first quarter, but they do and yeah some people will say you should be able to stop it so stop complaining, but I would point them to my first point because those are the people who do exactly what I am talking about with 2-3 plays that pretty much guarantee they will get it.

Thanks for reading let me know if you think these changes should be implemented.

Replies

  • OK... I'm fan of common sense football, however, I'm not a fan of gimmies.

    There should be no limit of online play calling... Nor should there be any adjustment to repetitive playcalling. If a player can't adjust to repetitive play calling, they should lose repetitively. (pun intinded). Frankly, I consider any request to get the AI to gather a strategy to "fix" an opponent's play to be a handicap for players to cannot compete.

    There are plenty of options available to ensure a fair and balanced game, assuming players know the options available to them.

    Later
  • The minute Madden starts telling me which plays I "have to" call is the minute I'm done.

    Learn to stop situations, especially if they are being repeated. It is possible. There are many problems with Madden 17 but almost all exploits can be countered.

    As for going for it on 4th, I love that. That's how I get a 3rd of my wins. Shutting down the idiots that go for it on 4th and long.

    If I get the ball back after a 4th down and am in field goal range, I will sometimes just kick a 3 on 1st to throw it in their face. I know I'm giving up some points doing that, but it feels good.
  • I don't know if its players like me you are referring to but I run 3 plays out of each formation. the purpose is too throw off my opponent. usually 2 pass and 1 run. but isn't that the purpose of play calling to offset the defense. I beat somebody this morning, he quit after 2 qtrs. I text him. you should stop picking your D before I pick my offense.

    major advantage to offense. You should not be calling the same D for a 4Wr/1Te set as opposed to a 2WR/1TE/1Rb set. but someone wrote no one wants to study their opponent tendencies. well I do, I believe that's what the game is about.

    not labing to find money plays

    4th downs, as I will always say FAIR PLAY SETTINGS.
  • moe71 wrote: »
    I don't know if its players like me you are referring to but I run 3 plays out of each formation. the purpose is too throw off my opponent. usually 2 pass and 1 run. but isn't that the purpose of play calling to offset the defense. I beat somebody this morning, he quit after 2 qtrs. I text him. you should stop picking your D before I pick my offense.

    major advantage to offense. You should not be calling the same D for a 4Wr/1Te set as opposed to a 2WR/1TE/1Rb set. but someone wrote no one wants to study their opponent tendencies. well I do, I believe that's what the game is about.

    not labing to find money plays

    4th downs, as I will always say FAIR PLAY SETTINGS.

    Moe,

    See my point?

    A lot of players pick their defense before they see the offense's personnel because they aren't very smart footballers. They aren't labbing to find money plays, they are running what they saw on YouTube. Every video seems to be telling people that they only need one defense to stop everything. They duplicate the setups without knowing the reason why and end up getting their snot box rocked by a football savvy Madden vet that pays attention to the details.

    Likewise, there are a ton of people that don't know that real NFL teams don't run 60 different plays every game. I read a book by Joe Theismann about how the Redskins put together their base game plan. He said they picked 6 plays they thought would work and ran those same 6 plays out of different formations the whole game. They virtually used only 3 run plays, the legendary Counter Trey, being the staple. The Cowboys saw the Counter Trey 9 straight times in a game once.

    In essence, some things people complain about are actually realistic tactics used every week in every NFL game. That's one reason I'm so adamant about debating things like 4th downs... I simply do not want ANYONE, especially those I doubt understand the full gist of why they see the football they see, making decisions for the team I control.

    Later
  • I agree maddenuniversity , that's the fun to me matching wits and I believe my opponent is doing the same but not really. Running plays as you suggest from you tube. I'm cueing into your sets and downs . Do you like to run on first downs? That's what madden is to me.
  • alot of times i run plays in order to get you to react to a certain player. yea i will toss the 5 yrd cross a few times in a few different formations in hopes that you will try to jump it and open up what i really want deep. some people just never react so i continue to run my plays. on def you have to force somebody out of there base def by adapting your off. if a certain zone is killing you why would you switch? if you arent smart enough to force me out of my base prepare to see alot of it.
  • This happens in real life. If a team cant stop a play they would run it all game until you stop it. Marty Schottenheimer used to run the same running play against the Raiders because they couldnt stop LT.

    I just played against somebody who was killing my defense with a Greg Olson crossing route. Just waited til the 4th quarter and assigned man coverage on Olson to Bobby Wagner and he was done. Beat him and it was too late for him to make an adjustment and that fool was ranked 42 online.

    Thats why ita important to play full games and don t quit or concede. The more you play the better you learn how to stop certain plays.
  • making adjustments on defense is what its all about. pay attention. look , learn , react.
  • moe71 wrote: »
    I agree maddenuniversity , that's the fun to me matching wits and I believe my opponent is doing the same but not really. Running plays as you suggest from you tube. I'm cueing into your sets and downs . Do you like to run on first downs? That's what madden is to me.

    I like to run the ball between the tackles from under center, and run virtually 0 (zero) shotgun plays. My run plays might go to the same hole, but I use different blocking (Iso, Zone, Traps, etc) so the defense can't defend my runs the same way. I also run a precise short passing game as a run substitute before stretching the field.

    I have tendencies, but I do enough to make it hard to pinpoint them.

    Later
  • moe71 wrote: »
    I agree maddenuniversity , that's the fun to me matching wits and I believe my opponent is doing the same but not really. Running plays as you suggest from you tube. I'm cueing into your sets and downs . Do you like to run on first downs? That's what madden is to me.

    I like to run the ball between the tackles from under center, and run virtually 0 (zero) shotgun plays. My run plays might go to the same hole, but I use different blocking (Iso, Zone, Traps, etc) so the defense can't defend my runs the same way. I also run a precise short passing game as a run substitute before stretching the field.

    I have tendencies, but I do enough to make it hard to pinpoint them.

    Later

    That's a great strategy.
    Madden fan since 93.
  • As others have said, dictating the amount of times I can run a play is not going to fly. I do think, however, a suitable solution is something that makes your team respond better. I admit... the shallow cross is my bread and butter. After about the 12th time running it, the defense should be able to anticipate it.

    I don't know how you account for this in H2H games.... if I run a shallow cross for the 31st time in the game, and you respond with an all-out blitz, you're going to get beat on that.

    This is certainly an age-old question and I'm not quite sure what the solution is. It does take the fun out of the game because it is less about strategy and more about 'what works'
  • kennylc wrote: »
    As others have said, dictating the amount of times I can run a play is not going to fly. I do think, however, a suitable solution is something that makes your team respond better. I admit... the shallow cross is my bread and butter. After about the 12th time running it, the defense should be able to anticipate it.

    I don't know how you account for this in H2H games.... if I run a shallow cross for the 31st time in the game, and you respond with an all-out blitz, you're going to get beat on that.

    This is certainly an age-old question and I'm not quite sure what the solution is. It does take the fun out of the game because it is less about strategy and more about 'what works'

    The Robber concept should stop drag and crossing routes, but it doesnt in Madden.

    In Robber the Safety is supposed to sit on all crossing routes.
  • regarding the shallow cross sometimes you got to defend things manually or assign coverage. I cheat with my DE on players that like to use the TE a lot.
  • moe71 wrote: »
    I agree maddenuniversity , that's the fun to me matching wits and I believe my opponent is doing the same but not really. Running plays as you suggest from you tube. I'm cueing into your sets and downs . Do you like to run on first downs? That's what madden is to me.

    I like to run the ball between the tackles from under center, and run virtually 0 (zero) shotgun plays. My run plays might go to the same hole, but I use different blocking (Iso, Zone, Traps, etc) so the defense can't defend my runs the same way. I also run a precise short passing game as a run substitute before stretching the field.

    I have tendencies, but I do enough to make it hard to pinpoint them.

    Later

    yeah people kill me that try to run out of the shot gun. I play a 4-3 defense so you can come out 5 wide. unless your throwing a bomb for 80yds and u beat my mlb's. I don't come out of that set too much.
  • If you can't stop a play why would your opponent do anything different again?
  • MLB figured this problem out with adaptive learning. Its like having a pitcher that throws 100. If you keep doing it, the CPU finally adjusts and gets the timing right. It studies your tendencies and adapts. For those who say computer should not learn and we should be able to adjust to your **** play calling then learn to change your system when CPU knows what you are doing. I think people that run the same exact play don't know football and are worried that if CPU adjusts they wont be able to win anymore.
  • I liked
    merlin33 wrote: »
    The minute Madden starts telling me which plays I "have to" call is the minute I'm done.

    Learn to stop situations, especially if they are being repeated. It is possible. There are many problems with Madden 17 but almost all exploits can be countered.

    As for going for it on 4th, I love that. That's how I get a 3rd of my wins. Shutting down the **** that go for it on 4th and long.

    If I get the ball back after a 4th down and am in field goal range, I will sometimes just kick a 3 on 1st to throw it in their face. I know I'm giving up some points doing that, but it feels good.

    The play calling is fine just improve your game. The pace of quickening up play calling started with gameflow. That's my Madden NFL fact of the day.
    Madden fan since 93.
  • True that


  • A few things...
    Ctech777 wrote: »
    MLB figured this problem out with adaptive learning. Its like having a pitcher that throws 100. If you keep doing it, the CPU finally adjusts and gets the timing right. It studies your tendencies and adapts. For those who say computer should not learn and we should be able to adjust to your **** play calling then learn to change your system when CPU knows what you are doing. I think people that run the same exact play don't know football and are worried that if CPU adjusts they wont be able to win anymore.

    I never play the CPU - only humans - but I can see how wanting a CPU opponent to adapt it's strategy to defending a specific play or concept. The groundwork for this type of "adaptive AI" has been being laid for years, but isn't quite as robust as it needs to be yet. I'll help illustrate the difficulty...

    For example, if you call offensive plays by concept such as "Mesh." The mesh concept only tells you what two of the five eligible receivers are doing. If the AI adapts to the two 'mesh' routes, there are three others that can potentially be open. Meanwhile, if the AI adapts to the three routes that are open, it's likely they will get nickeled and dimed by the mesh concept.

    When you also consider that there are literally thousands of concepts that players can makeup on the fly using formations and hot routes, it's entirely possible that you can call a play from the "Mesh" family and modify the play at the line of scrimmage with hot-routes that change it to a "Curl/Flat" concept. Meanwhile, the CPU attempting to adapt to the play is initially reading the original mesh concept marker from the play-call screen and adjusting to it instead of the play being run on the field.

    What I'm saying is that it's not really as simple. Either players will be playing an AI that is always several steps behind (assuming the human is well versed in football/Madden concepts) or humans must be forced to run stock plays without hot-routes (which will only appeal to those who are NOT well versed in football/Madden concepts).
    kennylc wrote: »
    As others have said, dictating the amount of times I can run a play is not going to fly. I do think, however, a suitable solution is something that makes your team respond better. I admit... the shallow cross is my bread and butter. After about the 12th time running it, the defense should be able to anticipate it.

    I don't know how you account for this in H2H games.... if I run a shallow cross for the 31st time in the game, and you respond with an all-out blitz, you're going to get beat on that.

    This is certainly an age-old question and I'm not quite sure what the solution is. It does take the fun out of the game because it is less about strategy and more about 'what works'

    In a human-vs-human game, there is no room for an Adaptive AI. It should simply be human vs human.

    If one player calls Inside Zone on every play, it's up to their opponent to stop the Inside Zone on every play. If stopping the Inside Zone is a strength for the defense, the human playing offense will have some tough decisions. If the flip is true, the defensive player's decisions will be toughest.

    Ultimately, those decisions are what make the Madden experience valuable... I love football, but I don't make ANY decisions for the team I root for in real life. In Madden I make all the strategic decisions. I also live with the consequences of such.

    The Robber concept should stop drag and crossing routes, but it doesnt in Madden.

    In Robber the Safety is supposed to sit on all crossing routes.

    I think we discussed this concept on another thread a few months ago (might have been someone else)...

    Robber does NOT stop drag and crossing routes. It's not designed to. What it is designed to do is augment man coverage by placing a safety in the middle of the field. But that safety cannot be in two places at once... You can defend one or the other using coverage audibles (over/under), but not both.

    He can either defend the intermediate crossing routes in the 5-12 yard range OR defend the short middle drag and slants in the 0-5 yard range. If you decide you want to take away the intermediate routes, your best hope is that the safety rallies up to lay a big hit on a dragging receiver. If you decide to take away the shorter drags and slants, your best hope is that the safety can track the ball and jump to knock down a pass heading to a player in the intermediate area...

    Of course, these best hope scenarios for the safety are susceptible to the same concepts that beat zone coverage like mesh and Hi-Low concepts that force the defender to make a choice whom to cover OR anytime the quarterback has time for receivers to completely clear the middle, making the robber a non-factor, so receivers can simply run away from man coverage.

    In my experience, Robber coverage work best as a bait coverage when combined with pressure OR when a player is sacrificed from the pressure scheme opposite the robber safety to augment the zones in the seam. This second option puts pressure on the offense to make a quick read where a delayed read would otherwise beat a base Robber.

    Typically, Madden's stock defenses are very basic. IMO, The best defenses to take away BOTH intermediate crossing and drag routes do not include man coverage. But it's not difficult to hot-route a base coverage (including Robber) to offset the weaknesses.

    Later
  • If you can't stop a play why would your opponent do anything different again?

    Yeah, buddy, that's the whole entire point. The plays do not work because the gamer is an evil genius who spent hours studying opponents tendency. They work just because it does. I can go GL defense, crash the middle and send all LBs into the A gap and 9/10 times, the QB still gets 2 yards on a sneak. There has to be a balance between 'money plays' and the AI deciding that a play will/will not work because that's what the programmers decided.
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