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Dynamic difficulty is ruining versus play

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  • jake19ny wrote: »
    Winning 1-0 with 16 seconds left in the game the Rangers score on their first and only shot on net, a weak baby shot, then win in a shootout by scoring with all 3 skaters against my AI goalie....what joke

    Video?
    You're serious? I think it is very easy to believe it happened just like he said. No video needed this time.

  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    jake19ny wrote: »
    Nice to see the Dev jump back into this conversation but still no answers to my original questions and then I responded to an answer gave with 2 additional questions topical to the current conversation in RBIs thread. He glanced right over that but continued to answer the other responses. I’m starting to think my questions cannot be addressed without the answers exposing DDA or major flaws in the game itself.

    I have responded to you in other threads and you have chose to continue to believe that there is DDA. If you can't trust what I say, then my responses to you aren't what you are actually looking for.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »
    Nice to see the Dev jump back into this conversation but still no answers to my original questions and then I responded to an answer gave with 2 additional questions topical to the current conversation in RBIs thread. He glanced right over that but continued to answer the other responses. I’m starting to think my questions cannot be addressed without the answers exposing DDA or major flaws in the game itself.

    I have responded to you in other threads and you have chose to continue to believe that there is DDA. If you can't trust what I say, then my responses to you aren't what you are actually looking for.

    I think if you say flat out:

    There is no DDA in any game mode.

    There is no ice-tilt in any game mode.

    I think this would satisfy him. If not, then who knows.
  • j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »
    Winning 1-0 with 16 seconds left in the game the Rangers score on their first and only shot on net, a weak baby shot, then win in a shootout by scoring with all 3 skaters against my AI goalie....what joke

    Video?
    You're serious? I think it is very easy to believe it happened just like he said. No video needed this time.

    Oh, I believe it happened. But I'd like to see HOW it happened and why DDA/Ice Tilt is to blame.
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    Then why do so many clean, unscreened shots from cutting in at the blue go in? Most good players don't shoot from the middle of the slot (the best statistical area in the NHL to score), they shoot before they get to the middle shortside. Far side shots work more often in the nyl because the goalies are trained from a young age not to give up the short side. But in this game, it's ten times harder to score on the far side than it is the short side.

    In this game, you need snipes to score 90% of the time. Most goals that are scored aren't snipes, but shots that beat goaltenders from good areas on the ice that leave little reaction time to shots.

    This isn't emulated whatsoever in this game. The accuracy is stupidly buffed (because you feel 4 minute periods needs to have this), and the goalies reactions are stupidly buffed to balance out the ridiculous shooting mechanics.

    Why don't you guys ever try lowering both? Your game looks pretty good this way.
    There are multiple things that go into game balance. People will also say that incidental contact and pokechecks are overpowered while others will say defensive actions are useless. There is a skill gap in everything we tune which is why you see people on both sides of so many arguments. That said, it is obviously easier for people to agree when they blame the game as they otherwise have to take accountability themselves as soon as they say something is a skill gap or user error. That isn't to say there aren't things that can be improved with the game -- that is why I come into work everyday -- but overall, people are happy to agree to blame the game as it takes the weight off themselves.

    But as far as shot accuracy goes and how it is tuned vs how it fits into the overall balance of the game -- It is possible that shot accuracy at it's best is too high (but again we have people complain they always miss the net -- so there is a skill gap there) but to get your best shot you also have to settle the puck which gives the defense time to disrupt that shot. If the defense forces a shot to happen earlier, it will be less accurate. Both players are playing the same game so understanding that balance is part of the game. Force the puck carrier to their backhand, use body positioning and incidental stick and body contact to disrupt their control of the puck. If you can't close that gap, use DSS to get a stick in there to disrupt their shot, etc. The tools are there within the current balance of the game to hold players to very low scoring chance totals regardless of peoples opinions on the subjective side of different mechanics and how things are balanced. If it was that easy to walk in and score, people wouldn't be getting shut out and we see a lot of great defenders in our game shutting people out with the current tuning.

    As far as the goal scoring balance and shooting. I posted this a little while back as I thought video would speak better than words. It was a compilation at the time of the last bunch of goals scored in my Online VS games. I actually find a lot of my clean shots come from the slot and if anything more were scored far side.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=560&v=2dCmRhacz-4



  • NHLDev wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »
    Nice to see the Dev jump back into this conversation but still no answers to my original questions and then I responded to an answer gave with 2 additional questions topical to the current conversation in RBIs thread. He glanced right over that but continued to answer the other responses. I’m starting to think my questions cannot be addressed without the answers exposing DDA or major flaws in the game itself.

    I have responded to you in other threads and you have chose to continue to believe that there is DDA. If you can't trust what I say, then my responses to you aren't what you are actually looking for.

    With all due respect because I think it’s fantastic that you get involved in the conversations, my questions were never answered anywhere. They basic questions that multiple people have posted about things they are experiencing and they don’t require anything other than an answer. I am more than willing to believe DDA does not exist but at this time we have no explanation as to why those things happen. I am far from the only one that would love to know the answer to those things
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    jake19ny wrote: »
    With all due respect because I think it’s fantastic that you get involved in the conversations, my questions were never answered anywhere. They basic questions that multiple people have posted about things they are experiencing and they don’t require anything other than an answer. I am more than willing to believe DDA does not exist but at this time we have no explanation as to why those things happen. I am far from the only one that would love to know the answer to those things

    I am not sure there will ever be a point that we can prove this to you in your own games as there is a bias in how you view what happens for or against you.

    The best thing for you to to do is load up a random full game on youtube or watch people play on twitch (recommend with sound off or else you will end up biased by what that twitch streamer is saying as well) and watch to see players missing nets, picking corners, goalies making a big desperation save, getting outskated for loose pucks, winning races to pucks, ai in great position, ai missing defensive coverage, etc. all on both sides of the puck.

    I watch tons of twitch streams and youtube videos where people say, "oh of course I miss the net there, when they never miss" and yet the next rush their opponent has to rush a shot and fires it wide yet they don't notice.

    I have said it before but there are a lot of things that can be improved with the game and there are a lot of subjective pieces that each individual would maybe tune differently but the big piece here is that those things impact both teams equally, it will just depend how we let our own bias' control how we interpret a given game.

    I also sometimes make this other analogy. When someone watches two real world NHL teams play that aren't their team, they are much less likely to think the refereeing is biased but the higher the stakes on the game for the team they are a fan of, the more they feel the announcers and refs are against their team. I see it happen all the time and there is no difference why that happens in a videogame -- even more so because people feel it must be coded and trust it less than people that physically skating out on the ice.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »
    With all due respect because I think it’s fantastic that you get involved in the conversations, my questions were never answered anywhere. They basic questions that multiple people have posted about things they are experiencing and they don’t require anything other than an answer. I am more than willing to believe DDA does not exist but at this time we have no explanation as to why those things happen. I am far from the only one that would love to know the answer to those things

    I am not sure there will ever be a point that we can prove this to you in your own games as there is a bias in how you view what happens for or against you.

    The best thing for you to to do is load up a random full game on youtube or watch people play on twitch (recommend with sound off or else you will end up biased by what that twitch streamer is saying as well) and watch to see players missing nets, picking corners, goalies making a big desperation save, getting outskated for loose pucks, winning races to pucks, ai in great position, ai missing defensive coverage, etc. all on both sides of the puck.

    I watch tons of twitch streams and youtube videos where people say, "oh of course I miss the net there, when they never miss" and yet the next rush their opponent has to rush a shot and fires it wide yet they don't notice.

    I have said it before but there are a lot of things that can be improved with the game and there are a lot of subjective pieces that each individual would maybe tune differently but the big piece here is that those things impact both teams equally, it will just depend how we let our own bias' control how we interpret a given game.

    I also sometimes make this other analogy. When someone watches two real world NHL teams play that aren't their team, they are much less likely to think the refereeing is biased but the higher the stakes on the game for the team they are a fan of, the more they feel the announcers and refs are against their team. I see it happen all the time and there is no difference why that happens in a videogame -- even more so because people feel it must be coded and trust it less than people that physically skating out on the ice.

    I agree 100% with this but I’m not sure that explains how a team made up of much lower rated cards and be much faster an entire game. Some have suggested this results from a bad p2p connection. I honestly don’t know much about that so maybe it is. But it also doesn’t explain how you can dominate every aspect of a game in the stats department, set up amazing plays but get robbed, and then the opponent scores 2-3 easy goals. When the game is over you outshot your opponent 29-6 but lost 3-2. For the record I have been on the winning side of those games as well. I understand it happens in real hockey but as often as we see it here. If you are telling me that’s just how the game is and you are looking to improve the game in that area then that’s find also as long as acknowledged as an issue.
  • sgiz1
    537 posts Member
    To bring this conversation back to the cause of everyone woe's in this game.

    Quality of connection to EA servers. The degree of latency you have results in strange things happening on the ice during the game, such as sluggish feeling, shots are weaker and less accurate, passing is slow to respond and less accurate, receiving passes and picking up lose pucks are wonky, acceleration and top speed seem slow or never can get to top speed, etc. etc.

    If everyone played this game with 0 latency, it would be absolutely true as DEV says, subjective about only seeing the negative things happening towards you or your team. However DEVS statement can't be true because we don't all play with 0 latency, some have a better responsive game than other's do which causes things to snowball or go against one more than the other, etc.

    For example, I have all the top equipment and high speed internet, etc. however my ping on this game is always between 35 and 50. A few of the players I play club with are between 7 and 15 consistently. I have noticeable input delay and struggle winning lose puck battles, etc. It's not about being bad, it's not about the game being one sided, etc. its the latency causing the issues.

    So my challenge to DEV and team EA, is after a decade of complaints about NHL always being plagued with input latency delay, etc. fix it! that will solve 99% of the complaints.
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    jake19ny wrote: »
    I agree 100% with this but I’m not sure that explains how a team made up of much lower rated cards and be much faster an entire game. Some have suggested this results from a bad p2p connection. I honestly don’t know much about that so maybe it is. But it also doesn’t explain how you can dominate every aspect of a game in the stats department, set up amazing plays but get robbed, and then the opponent scores 2-3 easy goals. When the game is over you outshot your opponent 29-6 but lost 3-2. For the record I have been on the winning side of those games as well. I understand it happens in real hockey but as often as we see it here. If you are telling me that’s just how the game is and you are looking to improve the game in that area then that’s find also as long as acknowledged as an issue.

    I think it explains it in the exact same way. There is subjectivity in your evaluation of what you see.

    It is possible that connections can add input delay sure but I am not sure if that is impacting what you are seeing or not.

    As far as one team dominating. That is where things can still be subjective. We have seen people post their 'good chances' on these boards via video and once you see them, you can see why they were not goals.

    But the main topic here isn't about if players can get robbed on good chances or not, it is about how that only happens for one team and that is what simply isn't true.

    At the end of the day, I really think it is just people's subjective opinions about the current tuning which gets even worse when they then have a bias about their own play vs their opponents in terms of how they notice how certain things play out in the game.

    No matter what, we are always looking at ways we can improve the game but as you have seen on the boards, even if we take feedback that comes directly from the community and then weigh that against our original goals for the games tuning/balance and make adjustments where it makes sense, people won't be happy with those changes in many cases anyways. There is a lot of subjectivity involved.
  • headup81
    99 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Jake. A mut developer admitted DDa a few years ago on these boards then retracted his post. A dev on here is just an employee of a company doing a their job. If boss man says don’t talk about something then they can’t talk about it. They try to discredit people by making about losing and not being accountable. Has nothing to do with that.I just played a 6-4 vs a much lower skilled player a few divs lower than me and it was hilarious.

    In 2018 it’s impossible that any game that relies on micro transactions wouldn’t employ ways to keep people playing. They don’t just “wing it” and hope for the best.

    Riddle me this Ea dev. If there is no DDA, why then when you keep hitting rematch vs a friend locally the game feels different every game? What mechanics are at play here? This is especially obvious when the skill gap is large.
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    headup81 wrote: »
    Jake. A mut developer admitted DDa a few years ago on these boards then retracted his post. A dev on here is just an employee of a company doing a their job. If boss man says don’t talk about something then they can’t talk about it. They try to discredit people by making about losing and not being accountable. Has nothing to do with that.I just played a 6-4 vs a much lower skilled player a few divs lower than me and it was hilarious.

    In 2018 it’s impossible that any game that relies on micro transactions wouldn’t employ ways to keep people playing. They don’t just “wing it” and hope for the best.

    Riddle me this Ea dev. If there is no DDA, why then when you keep hitting rematch vs a friend locally the game feels different every game? What mechanics are at play here? This is especially obvious when the skill gap is large.

    The thing you are missing is that talking on the forums isn't my job. The way the game plays is my job. If we were doing something artificial, I wouldn't bother coming to work and would look for another way to spend my days. Trying to replicate the sport of hockey, have it work in a competitive environment online and feel balanced is a huge task that I find very interesting and challenging.

    And I am not sure what you mean by the game feeling different when you are rematching locally. With all the variables in hockey, I would expect most games to play out differently. Just look at any season series between two teams in the NHL. I would expect you to beat a friend that you are better than the great majority of times if not all the time if the skill gap is that big.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »
    I agree 100% with this but I’m not sure that explains how a team made up of much lower rated cards and be much faster an entire game. Some have suggested this results from a bad p2p connection. I honestly don’t know much about that so maybe it is. But it also doesn’t explain how you can dominate every aspect of a game in the stats department, set up amazing plays but get robbed, and then the opponent scores 2-3 easy goals. When the game is over you outshot your opponent 29-6 but lost 3-2. For the record I have been on the winning side of those games as well. I understand it happens in real hockey but as often as we see it here. If you are telling me that’s just how the game is and you are looking to improve the game in that area then that’s find also as long as acknowledged as an issue.

    I think it explains it in the exact same way. There is subjectivity in your evaluation of what you see.

    It is possible that connections can add input delay sure but I am not sure if that is impacting what you are seeing or not.

    As far as one team dominating. That is where things can still be subjective. We have seen people post their 'good chances' on these boards via video and once you see them, you can see why they were not goals.

    But the main topic here isn't about if players can get robbed on good chances or not, it is about how that only happens for one team and that is what simply isn't true.

    At the end of the day, I really think it is just people's subjective opinions about the current tuning which gets even worse when they then have a bias about their own play vs their opponents in terms of how they notice how certain things play out in the game.

    No matter what, we are always looking at ways we can improve the game but as you have seen on the boards, even if we take feedback that comes directly from the community and then weigh that against our original goals for the games tuning/balance and make adjustments where it makes sense, people won't be happy with those changes in many cases anyways. There is a lot of subjectivity involved.

    I get the subjectivity part but that goes out the window when someone complains about DDA as the beneficiary of it. Just the same I appreciate you taking the time and for now I will take your word on it that it’s not in this game. It does exist out there even if not in this series and as long as it does I suppose developers will live under the scrutiny it will create. I still think there is a problem that appears in some games and perhaps it is a latency issue. Hopefully better connections for match ups can be implemented sooner than later. As for me I’m done with this issue because proving or disproving it is like a dog chasing it’s tail. Thanks again for taking the time to address it.
  • Late to the conversation, but here are my thoughts. For years, I have always been against any slider that affects players on the ice. Why even have player ratings if the sliders are basically going to overrule the ratings? If I place a player shot accuracy below 50, but then raise the shot accuracy SLIDER to 70, isn't that going to basically raise the player shot accuracy rating? Which in turn, almost makes certain ratings become pointless, and certain players start to perform better than they should. The opposite affects also applies...lower shot accuracy slider means lower shot accuracy rating.

    To me, I feel this is one of the big issues causing a dynamic difficulty experience. Example: You control a player with a high puck control RATING, but the puck control SLIDER is 0. So when you skate, you feel like the game is making you lose the puck so the CPU can win. In actuality, the slider is taking precedence it seems over the rating. If I'm wrong, please explain how these things are supposed to work then.

    Remove any "player type sliders", base the game on the ratings, and I really feel this game will be much better.

    Back in the 80s, I played a game called Superstar Ice Hockey. It had progression of age and ratings. Those ratings affected how the player was on the ice. High shot rating and player scored more. Simple.

    I think there are way too many pieces of the puzzle in this game, and when combined, causes the DDA experience, which it just might be something other.

    I would be curious as to everyone's view of the game play if there was a way to play a "balanced" game where the player ratings are the determining factor,
  • Steven5470 wrote: »
    Late to the conversation, but here are my thoughts. For years, I have always been against any slider that affects players on the ice. Why even have player ratings if the sliders are basically going to overrule the ratings? If I place a player shot accuracy below 50, but then raise the shot accuracy SLIDER to 70, isn't that going to basically raise the player shot accuracy rating? Which in turn, almost makes certain ratings become pointless, and certain players start to perform better than they should. The opposite affects also applies...lower shot accuracy slider means lower shot accuracy rating.

    To me, I feel this is one of the big issues causing a dynamic difficulty experience. Example: You control a player with a high puck control RATING, but the puck control SLIDER is 0. So when you skate, you feel like the game is making you lose the puck so the CPU can win. In actuality, the slider is taking precedence it seems over the rating. If I'm wrong, please explain how these things are supposed to work then.

    Remove any "player type sliders", base the game on the ratings, and I really feel this game will be much better.

    Back in the 80s, I played a game called Superstar Ice Hockey. It had progression of age and ratings. Those ratings affected how the player was on the ice. High shot rating and player scored more. Simple.

    I think there are way too many pieces of the puzzle in this game, and when combined, causes the DDA experience, which it just might be something other.

    I would be curious as to everyone's view of the game play if there was a way to play a "balanced" game where the player ratings are the determining factor,

    Hmm, interesting train of thought. Valid points.

    I don't agree however with your last sentence. It cannot be that simple. Sure, ratings have to be a factor, no getting around that. However, how do you combine that with user skill? If ratings are all that matter, then even a user who has low skills would consistently snipe if his player ratings were high enough.
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    Late to the conversation, but here are my thoughts. For years, I have always been against any slider that affects players on the ice. Why even have player ratings if the sliders are basically going to overrule the ratings? If I place a player shot accuracy below 50, but then raise the shot accuracy SLIDER to 70, isn't that going to basically raise the player shot accuracy rating? Which in turn, almost makes certain ratings become pointless, and certain players start to perform better than they should. The opposite affects also applies...lower shot accuracy slider means lower shot accuracy rating.

    To me, I feel this is one of the big issues causing a dynamic difficulty experience. Example: You control a player with a high puck control RATING, but the puck control SLIDER is 0. So when you skate, you feel like the game is making you lose the puck so the CPU can win. In actuality, the slider is taking precedence it seems over the rating. If I'm wrong, please explain how these things are supposed to work then.

    Remove any "player type sliders", base the game on the ratings, and I really feel this game will be much better.

    Back in the 80s, I played a game called Superstar Ice Hockey. It had progression of age and ratings. Those ratings affected how the player was on the ice. High shot rating and player scored more. Simple.

    I think there are way too many pieces of the puzzle in this game, and when combined, causes the DDA experience, which it just might be something other.

    I would be curious as to everyone's view of the game play if there was a way to play a "balanced" game where the player ratings are the determining factor,

    There are definitely a lot of pieces to the puzzle but we try to implement based on what we feel is true to hockey so that it will make sense to people. That is why a lot of it is based on physical factors such as spinning around and shooting being less accurate and powerful than a shot where you can settle and lean into it.

    I have seen your posts over the years stating these same things but the piece you are missing is that it isn't black and white. A slider can move the base range but attributes will always have a factor. Our online settings are such that attributes already mean a lot. Arcade settings on the other hand really raise the floor up and minimizes the amount of player separation more but attributes still make a difference as all the models are still the same. But you can't be more accurate with a shot than perfect so if we raise accuracy for arcade purposes, it is raising the floor and lowering the amount of separation but you are still better to be an elite sniper settled in the slot than a 4th line grinder spinning around a shooting off balance.

    When it comes to something like puck control. An elite player with high ratings needs to settle the puck less to have full control than a player with lower attributes. So you can shoot right out of a deke or out of a spin for example with an elite player and have decent success but with a low rated player you may miss the net by a couple feet.

    So the short answer is: The attributes already have a huge impact on the game

    On top of that though, a players twitch skill is also required. We don't just make an elite sniper pick the open corner. It still takes the human controlling the game to see that opening that the goalie is giving or to skate in such a way to get the goalie to commit before shooting against their momentum. The final outcome of the shot though and how accurate and powerful it is towards what the User intended is based on the attributes and how they weigh into the mechanic calculations.
  • I didn't play the older NHL games but if someone did, is there an explanation what the momentum bar did for your team when it was full/empty?
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    How is a shot on net not considered a scoring chance?

    Although I understand that the way in which the shot is directed at the goalie effects it's chances of resulting in a goal - a shot on net is a scoring chance, regardless of how it got there.

    Of course some chances are better than others - but a shot on net is a shot on net.

    Saying that shots don't equal scoring chances is quite absurd, in my opinion.

    Well it could be that you don't really understand hockey then.


    LMAO

    That's right - nobody understands hockey like you ;)


    Considering real life broadcasts use “scoring chances” as a stat and they are usually 1/3rd to 1/4th the amount of shots, I’m going to go Venom here on this one. A shot is not considered a scoring chance.

    Every shot is a scoring chance. Real life broadcast 'scoring chances' are subjective.

    If you don't think every shot on net has a chance of going in, why take shots?

    False. A shot is a shot. Many shots from outside are not scoring chances.
  • jake19ny wrote: »
    DDA is also rampant and ridiculously obvious in HUT challenges. Need to win faceoffs? CPU will be a master. Need a certain amount of attack zone time? CPU will have glue on their sticks....Need to take no penalties? One of your CPU AI teammates will take one. Just played the Rangers on superstar for the collectible. Winning 1-0 with 16 seconds left in the game the Rangers score on their first and only shot on net, a weak baby shot, then win in a shootout by scoring with all 3 skaters against my AI goalie....what joke

    So true 😂 I left HUT. Happy about it.
  • Ea dev. I know you know what I’m talking about but I’ll explain anyway. Game 1 starts, your players are fast and responsive, passes go where they should, poke checks work as intended, you win the face offs you should based on grip and all that. If your opponent gets caught with his head down he gets rocked you win this game 7-1. Game 2 starts, you lose the first face off despite the fact your opponent did it wrong. Now your players are slow and wonky and your A.I. players are all over the place. Passes are wild, shots are wild. One timer attempts pause before shooting. Your opponent is bouncing off of clean body checks. You fight to either win or lose this one 2-1 or 1-0.

    What determines this? Both games should they not feel 100 percent the same at puck drop. Shouldn’t the play on the ice dictate momentum.


    You guys say there is no momentum in the game which everyone knows is 100 percent false so how can we believe there’s no DDA when something as overtly obvious as momentum you can’t be honest about.

    I don’t doubt you’re passionate about what you do for a living and I realize forum posting is not in your job description. I worded that poorly. I meant that you’re porsting within the limitations that have been set upon you by your employer. I work for a large company and if start sharing company info on the net I’ll hear about it.

    You guys are 90 percent the way to creating the best hockey game ever. The framework for this game is top notch. It’s the philosophy as to what constitutes are realistic hockey game that’s way off the mark. Example of this is coming around your net and passing the puck to your player on the right side blue line. If I pass to the right, it’s acceptable for the pass to bounce over his stick, it’s ok to bobble the pass because it’s too hard. What is not acceptable is when you aim right and the puck goes to the left to where there just so happens to be your opponents players who takes any shot that your goalie doesn’t moves to stop. This has nothing to do with the people holding the controllers.
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