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Dynamic difficulty is ruining versus play

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  • I’ll take a stab at this theory as to why your AI seems to have trouble when experiencing lag. This is all based on theory so by no means is it correct, but due to the extensive time played offline and based on information from other EA games, I feel as if this theory is at least an educated guess.

    So, knowing that the Madden PC community has found that every object in Madden is essentially teathered to the ball in some sort of way, I feel like NHL has the same sort of coding.

    When playing offline NHL, do you notice that the AI team “anticipates” your passes by reading your controller input and somewhat naturally but unnaturally steps up to pick that pass off? If you haven’t, take a bit to play offline and pay close attention when you’re retrieving a puck. If you gain possession, curl your stick and hold LS towards a teammate for a second or two, you’ll notice the AI forechecker will drift into that passing lane magically. I don’t mind the feature, I think it makes you think more as a human which is always fun, but this fact sets up my theory so I needed to explain the situation.

    Another teathering example is in the defensive zone. We’ve all noticed our AI, especially when covering the left-right point, randomly come over to our side and leave the weak-side Dman open right? That’s because the AI is seeing your location, determining that you’re out of position (according to the AI, not real-world hockey) and therefore comes over to “cover” for you.

    So knowing how much input the AI is reading-in when it comes to user position, user input, is it any surprise that when you’re lagging you’re sending delayed inputs which messes up your AI’s logic? I feel like this is the most realistic and logical explanation for these “DDA” experiences. Your AI is being given faulty information (your inputs) to make decisions because of your lag, therefore your AI is constantly “covering” for you as it thinks you’re always out of position.

    Obviously it’s just a theory, but what do you DDA guys think about this? This would explain “DDA” in every game mode requiring an internet connection right? Any amount of delay fatman lag to straight-up choppiness could be enough to cause faulty inputs which in-turn makes your AI act inappropriately due to the faulty data it’s receiving.
    You're theory is quite the same I was trying to introduce earlier, you just made it much more detailed. ;)
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.
    Just to clarify, has it been tested by them "in the real world" (having said delay) or is it just "that's the way is intented to be"?

    I'm asking because I think that you guys have no idea what is it to play with said situation, having "a fat man lag" and your AI going haywire.

    But how about this theory: if a player having a fat man lag (is forced to) try too hard to get in control and gives too many (delayed) inputs to his player/team causing them to be out of position all the time. Could this make AI to lose its ability to play like they should?

    I'm just trying to find a reasonable explanation why people are having this experience.
  • I’ll take a stab at this theory as to why your AI seems to have trouble when experiencing lag. This is all based on theory so by no means is it correct, but due to the extensive time played offline and based on information from other EA games, I feel as if this theory is at least an educated guess.

    So, knowing that the Madden PC community has found that every object in Madden is essentially teathered to the ball in some sort of way, I feel like NHL has the same sort of coding.

    When playing offline NHL, do you notice that the AI team “anticipates” your passes by reading your controller input and somewhat naturally but unnaturally steps up to pick that pass off? If you haven’t, take a bit to play offline and pay close attention when you’re retrieving a puck. If you gain possession, curl your stick and hold LS towards a teammate for a second or two, you’ll notice the AI forechecker will drift into that passing lane magically. I don’t mind the feature, I think it makes you think more as a human which is always fun, but this fact sets up my theory so I needed to explain the situation.

    Another teathering example is in the defensive zone. We’ve all noticed our AI, especially when covering the left-right point, randomly come over to our side and leave the weak-side Dman open right? That’s because the AI is seeing your location, determining that you’re out of position (according to the AI, not real-world hockey) and therefore comes over to “cover” for you.

    So knowing how much input the AI is reading-in when it comes to user position, user input, is it any surprise that when you’re lagging you’re sending delayed inputs which messes up your AI’s logic? I feel like this is the most realistic and logical explanation for these “DDA” experiences. Your AI is being given faulty information (your inputs) to make decisions because of your lag, therefore your AI is constantly “covering” for you as it thinks you’re always out of position.

    Obviously it’s just a theory, but what do you DDA guys think about this? This would explain “DDA” in every game mode requiring an internet connection right? Any amount of delay fatman lag to straight-up choppiness could be enough to cause faulty inputs which in-turn makes your AI act inappropriately due to the faulty data it’s receiving.

    I see the AI reading the input of the controller when the defender is right behind you. Skate to the right, immediately the AI mirrors your movement..skate to the left..same thing. Try and deke right then left, and the AI is still behind you. It definitely seems like the AI is reading the controller inputs. I see this "mirror" affect quite often.
  • Steven5470 wrote: »
    I’ll take a stab at this theory as to why your AI seems to have trouble when experiencing lag. This is all based on theory so by no means is it correct, but due to the extensive time played offline and based on information from other EA games, I feel as if this theory is at least an educated guess.

    So, knowing that the Madden PC community has found that every object in Madden is essentially teathered to the ball in some sort of way, I feel like NHL has the same sort of coding.

    When playing offline NHL, do you notice that the AI team “anticipates” your passes by reading your controller input and somewhat naturally but unnaturally steps up to pick that pass off? If you haven’t, take a bit to play offline and pay close attention when you’re retrieving a puck. If you gain possession, curl your stick and hold LS towards a teammate for a second or two, you’ll notice the AI forechecker will drift into that passing lane magically. I don’t mind the feature, I think it makes you think more as a human which is always fun, but this fact sets up my theory so I needed to explain the situation.

    Another teathering example is in the defensive zone. We’ve all noticed our AI, especially when covering the left-right point, randomly come over to our side and leave the weak-side Dman open right? That’s because the AI is seeing your location, determining that you’re out of position (according to the AI, not real-world hockey) and therefore comes over to “cover” for you.

    So knowing how much input the AI is reading-in when it comes to user position, user input, is it any surprise that when you’re lagging you’re sending delayed inputs which messes up your AI’s logic? I feel like this is the most realistic and logical explanation for these “DDA” experiences. Your AI is being given faulty information (your inputs) to make decisions because of your lag, therefore your AI is constantly “covering” for you as it thinks you’re always out of position.

    Obviously it’s just a theory, but what do you DDA guys think about this? This would explain “DDA” in every game mode requiring an internet connection right? Any amount of delay fatman lag to straight-up choppiness could be enough to cause faulty inputs which in-turn makes your AI act inappropriately due to the faulty data it’s receiving.

    I see the AI reading the input of the controller when the defender is right behind you. Skate to the right, immediately the AI mirrors your movement..skate to the left..same thing. Try and deke right then left, and the AI is still behind you. It definitely seems like the AI is reading the controller inputs. I see this "mirror" affect quite often.

    Honestly you can't deny it.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »
    Fatboyee wrote: »
    There is no doubt theres logic in this game that is unrelated to network connection that artificially increases control latency to call it whatever u want ( tilt/DDA/momentum ) occurring during versus online.

    Absolutely, 100% untrue. Provide evidence. Seriously - to say there's "no doubt" is an absolute fabrication. You have no clue whatsoever as to what you're talking about. This is NOT a personal attack. I am just pointing out that you're making a claim without any proof. None. That's not an attack (for the mods out there) I am just challenging you to provide EVIDENCE for your claims.

    Absolutely 100% something is wrong....I don’t know what it is but something happens that a large amount of users are experiencing and that alone is more evidence that something is up than there is evidence that something isn’t. The Devs have issued blanket denials on DDA and I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt on that. The ridiculous P2P connection EA uses was thought to be the culprit but the Dev has indicated that connectivity issues do not affect AI play.....they need to figure out what the problem is because it destroys the gaming experience win or lose. To say people don’t know what they are talking about is pretty ridiculous when so many describe the same thing, again win or lose.

    It's not evidence because you think something is forcing you to win that isn't related to your own skill. Yes, the devs have denied DDA exists. That's because it doesn't exist. They're being honest with you, but you refuse to believe them because you need a reason for why you keep win and lose games, but will not accept that it's due to how you play.

    You guys act like the AI players are supposed to behave exactly like their strategies dictate. They are good at that, but since most humans control their team by pulling players out of position, it doesn't let the AI really react to the strategies that are set for them. Just like one bad human on an EASHL club and lose a game for their team, the same goes when you have 4 AI skaters trying to work around the human controlled skater that is chasing for hits and flying all over the ice without worrying about positioning.

    You don't know what you're talking about. You even admitted it. You say you don't know what it is. If you knew what you were talking about you'd have proof that DDA exists. As it is now, it's something you assume is in the game because you don't like how the game plays. Have you even tried switching up your play? Have you tried using different strategies or do you just do the same thing you do every time and expect it to work and then blame DDA when it doesn't?

    No offense but do you read the posts? I said I accept their statement DDA doesn’t exist but something is affecting gameplay at times period. You insult everyone when you suggest they don’t know what they are talking about. Of course I know the difference between AI being pulled out of position and wandering. When am opppnent comes down on a 2 on 2 and your AI defenseman last minute collapses into you leaving the man open for the money one timer that’s not failing on my part or skill on the opponents part.....when a loose puck is coming around the points to a point man in your end and Your AI teammates skates out of the zone not leaving that guy alone to pick up the puck that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part....when your AI teammates skates away from a guy camped in front of the net just before a pass for an easy tip in that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part.....when your AI teammate skates into effectively taking you out of the play that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part.....when my goalie gives up 4 goals on 5 shots because he barely moved to make an easy save that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part....
    Believe it or not many of us have played and watched hockey for many many years we also have played this series for many many years, we know the difference between bad play, lag, and something affecting gameplay. While everyone is entitled to post their opinion, you have quoted several people and post virtually the same thing every time. Now it’s to the point you tell people they don’t know what they are talking about...how is that anyway contributing or constructive to the conversation?
  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    jake19ny wrote: »

    No offense but do you read the posts? I said I accept their statement DDA doesn’t exist but something is affecting gameplay at times period. You insult everyone when you suggest they don’t know what they are talking about. Of course I know the difference between AI being pulled out of position and wandering. When am opppnent comes down on a 2 on 2 and your AI defenseman last minute collapses into you leaving the man open for the money one timer that’s not failing on my part or skill on the opponents part.....when a loose puck is coming around the points to a point man in your end and Your AI teammates skates out of the zone not leaving that guy alone to pick up the puck that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part....when your AI teammates skates away from a guy camped in front of the net just before a pass for an easy tip in that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part.....when your AI teammate skates into effectively taking you out of the play that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part.....when my goalie gives up 4 goals on 5 shots because he barely moved to make an easy save that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part....

    Believe it or not many of us have played and watched hockey for many many years we also have played this series for many many years, we know the difference between bad play, lag, and something affecting gameplay. While everyone is entitled to post their opinion, you have quoted several people and post virtually the same thing every time. Now it’s to the point you tell people they don’t know what they are talking about...how is that anyway contributing or constructive to the conversation?

    It wasn't my intent to be insulting. Apologies for that.

    Yes, I've seen AI players do things that baffles me. It's very frustrating at times, but I also understand they're computers. They're not humans. They're not going to be perfect. I give them a certain amount of leeway. Everyone has to deal with them. They never will be perfect either. That's the nature of AI. It's artificial intelligence. I don't think there's anything going on that makes them perform better or worse based on some kind of pre-determined winner, momentum, ice tilt, DDA, whatever. I'm not saying you believe this since you pointed out you don't, but it's the feeling of many people here.
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Sinbin wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    No offense but do you read the posts? I said I accept their statement DDA doesn’t exist but something is affecting gameplay at times period. You insult everyone when you suggest they don’t know what they are talking about. Of course I know the difference between AI being pulled out of position and wandering. When am opppnent comes down on a 2 on 2 and your AI defenseman last minute collapses into you leaving the man open for the money one timer that’s not failing on my part or skill on the opponents part.....when a loose puck is coming around the points to a point man in your end and Your AI teammates skates out of the zone not leaving that guy alone to pick up the puck that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part....when your AI teammates skates away from a guy camped in front of the net just before a pass for an easy tip in that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part.....when your AI teammate skates into effectively taking you out of the play that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part.....when my goalie gives up 4 goals on 5 shots because he barely moved to make an easy save that’s not failing on my part or skill on my opponents part....

    Believe it or not many of us have played and watched hockey for many many years we also have played this series for many many years, we know the difference between bad play, lag, and something affecting gameplay. While everyone is entitled to post their opinion, you have quoted several people and post virtually the same thing every time. Now it’s to the point you tell people they don’t know what they are talking about...how is that anyway contributing or constructive to the conversation?

    It wasn't my intent to be insulting. Apologies for that.

    Yes, I've seen AI players do things that baffles me. It's very frustrating at times, but I also understand they're computers. They're not humans. They're not going to be perfect. I give them a certain amount of leeway. Everyone has to deal with them. They never will be perfect either. That's the nature of AI. It's artificial intelligence. I don't think there's anything going on that makes them perform better or worse based on some kind of pre-determined winner, momentum, ice tilt, DDA, whatever. I'm not saying you believe this since you pointed out you don't, but it's the feeling of many people here.

    I’m not going to lie I did believe in DDA and I understand why people would think it’s in the game. The Dev was good enough to join the conversation and try and clear things up. He says it’s not in the game and I believe him. I also believe people are experiencing strange things in some games and I believe my own experiences. I still think P2P connections is responsible for a lot of it. I think if EA used dedicated servers for HUT and I think they need to have a better match up system. I think they need to match people not only on ranking but on team make-up. A 90 overall team shouldn’t be matched up against a team full of conmons and Silvers regardless of skill. MLB the Show has a really good matchup system and reward tiers in their RS and as a result most of the match ups are good competitive games. Those 2 things would end a lot of debate.

    AI is another issue and I get what you are saying but losing a game because of a bad AI play that really shouldn’t happen is brutal....let me rephrase that losing a lot of games because of a bad AI play is really brutal.
    Post edited by jake19ny on
  • All player attributes and abilities are coded in the game. Higher rated players perform better than lower rates ones.

    Synergies upgrade attributes.

    In the past the game used hot/cold streaks for individual players and for the whole team. When this was in effect your team performed poorly, same thing with goalie performance - fatigue.

    There was once a momentum meter in the game that affected the way you players performed based on the things you did or did.not do...


    If the game engine previously had factors in it that caused your team to perform well or poorly, why is it so difficult to believe it could exist in this version of the game in some forms or another?

    What more proof do need?

  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    jake19ny wrote: »

    I’m not going to lie I did believe in DDA and I understand why people would think it’s in the game. The Dev was good enough to join the conversation and try and clear things up. He says it’s not in the game and I believe him. I also believe people are experiencing strange things in some games and I believe my own experiences. I still think P2P connections is responsible for a lot of it. I think if EA used dedicated servers for HUT and I think they need to have a better match up system. I think they need to match people not only on ranking but on team make-up. A 90 overall team shouldn’t be matched up against a team full of conmons and Silvers regardless of skill. MLB the Show has a really good matchup system and reward tiers in their RS and as a result most of the match ups are good competitive games. Those 2 things would end a lot of debate.

    AI is another issue and I get what you are saying but losing a game because of a bad AI play that really shouldn’t happen is brutal....let me rephrase that losing a lot of games because of a bad AI play is really brutal.

    I'm never matching up against teams full of commons and silvers. If you want a better chance at matching up with someone in your division, cancel the search after 15 - 20 seconds and try again. MLB probably has a bigger pool of people playing as well.

    I feel like strange things in some games is subjective. I have seen people complain that a puck bouncing and deflecting off players and ending up in the net is strange or unrealistic. You can see the same thing happen in real games. Yeah, glitchy stuff happens now and then. It's software. It's bound to occur. Almost on a daily basis in EASHL games I hear people complaining that something is the game's fault when it's clearly their own, but they can't be accountable for their actions. Especially when it comes to tripping or charging. They almost always say they were in perfect position or that shouldn't have been a charge. Both of those are in your control, but it's incredibly common for someone to push the blame off on the game and claim it's broken.

    What I find interesting about the bad AI play is that you can put a full team of AI players out there and they will play fantastic. The moment you put that human element in, all of a sudden people complain they're bad. The one factor there making the difference is the human. Again, there is no accountability. The human will say their AI are terrible, but if they end up in the box and it's all AI, they'll play very well. The human automatically thinks they're the best player out there when in many cases it's them that is causing the poor play.
  • I still believe that we have way too many sliders in this game. IMO, the combination of sliders plus player ratings creates this "dynamic" difficulty. I believe the choice to have a shot accuracy slider or any slider affecting the player, was poor.

    We look at players like Kane or Crosby or any of the top stars and view their ratings. We look at those and think they should perform great in game. Start the game, and they perform half of how good they should be. Why? Because the sliders wash out the ratings.

    PKane has a great puck control. But if you put the puck control slider real low, that's also going to affect PKane's ability in the game, making someone think the game is purposely being fixed in the AI favor.

    A player with a high speed rating is slowing down because the game speed slider has been reduced...now, we think defenders can easily catch anyone.

    Sliders should only be for non-player related things like audio or crowd reaction or cameras. For years I've been asking what is the "balanced" setting so the game is based solely off the player ratings and for years I don't get a solid response. I think it's because there is no balance in this game. And this no balance creates that "dynamic" feel.

    Hockey games of the past used to rely solely on player ratings. Whether it was a text game or an old Apple IIGS Hockey game. Either way, the players performed how they should. It should be like that now, or at least give us a balanced slider preset.
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Sinbin wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    I’m not going to lie I did believe in DDA and I understand why people would think it’s in the game. The Dev was good enough to join the conversation and try and clear things up. He says it’s not in the game and I believe him. I also believe people are experiencing strange things in some games and I believe my own experiences. I still think P2P connections is responsible for a lot of it. I think if EA used dedicated servers for HUT and I think they need to have a better match up system. I think they need to match people not only on ranking but on team make-up. A 90 overall team shouldn’t be matched up against a team full of conmons and Silvers regardless of skill. MLB the Show has a really good matchup system and reward tiers in their RS and as a result most of the match ups are good competitive games. Those 2 things would end a lot of debate.

    AI is another issue and I get what you are saying but losing a game because of a bad AI play that really shouldn’t happen is brutal....let me rephrase that losing a lot of games because of a bad AI play is really brutal.

    I'm never matching up against teams full of commons and silvers. If you want a better chance at matching up with someone in your division, cancel the search after 15 - 20 seconds and try again. MLB probably has a bigger pool of people playing as well.

    I feel like strange things in some games is subjective. I have seen people complain that a puck bouncing and deflecting off players and ending up in the net is strange or unrealistic. You can see the same thing happen in real games. Yeah, glitchy stuff happens now and then. It's software. It's bound to occur. Almost on a daily basis in EASHL games I hear people complaining that something is the game's fault when it's clearly their own, but they can't be accountable for their actions. Especially when it comes to tripping or charging. They almost always say they were in perfect position or that shouldn't have been a charge. Both of those are in your control, but it's incredibly common for someone to push the blame off on the game and claim it's broken.

    What I find interesting about the bad AI play is that you can put a full team of AI players out there and they will play fantastic. The moment you put that human element in, all of a sudden people complain they're bad. The one factor there making the difference is the human. Again, there is no accountability. The human will say their AI are terrible, but if they end up in the box and it's all AI, they'll play very well. The human automatically thinks they're the best player out there when in many cases it's them that is causing the poor play.

    I’ve only been matched up with teams like that a handful of times I was using an extreme example. I just think they should match teams better but you are right MLB has a bigger pool of people online but EA could definitely take a cue from their tier system for matchups. I also agree with you that the AI in this game plays very well in all modes except HUT which is why I believe the P2P connection has to have something to do with it. It would definitely explain why some games they are excellent and others inept. I can assure you some of the head scratching things the AI does are totally out of user control. A bad position or blown coverage happening here or there in a game is one thing but having the AI seem lost and clueless a whole game while other games they play amazing leads me to believe their is an issue. Because it happens sometimes and not always and people usually have a good connection to their WiFi when it does it makes them think the game is predetermined when really it’s their connection to their opponent that’s jacking it up. No excuse for EA not to have dedicated servers to a mode that is designed to generate them extra revenue. Until that day comes these debates will rage on.
  • Sinbin wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    I’m not going to lie I did believe in DDA and I understand why people would think it’s in the game. The Dev was good enough to join the conversation and try and clear things up. He says it’s not in the game and I believe him. I also believe people are experiencing strange things in some games and I believe my own experiences. I still think P2P connections is responsible for a lot of it. I think if EA used dedicated servers for HUT and I think they need to have a better match up system. I think they need to match people not only on ranking but on team make-up. A 90 overall team shouldn’t be matched up against a team full of conmons and Silvers regardless of skill. MLB the Show has a really good matchup system and reward tiers in their RS and as a result most of the match ups are good competitive games. Those 2 things would end a lot of debate.

    AI is another issue and I get what you are saying but losing a game because of a bad AI play that really shouldn’t happen is brutal....let me rephrase that losing a lot of games because of a bad AI play is really brutal.

    I'm never matching up against teams full of commons and silvers. If you want a better chance at matching up with someone in your division, cancel the search after 15 - 20 seconds and try again. MLB probably has a bigger pool of people playing as well.

    I feel like strange things in some games is subjective. I have seen people complain that a puck bouncing and deflecting off players and ending up in the net is strange or unrealistic. You can see the same thing happen in real games. Yeah, glitchy stuff happens now and then. It's software. It's bound to occur. Almost on a daily basis in EASHL games I hear people complaining that something is the game's fault when it's clearly their own, but they can't be accountable for their actions. Especially when it comes to tripping or charging. They almost always say they were in perfect position or that shouldn't have been a charge. Both of those are in your control, but it's incredibly common for someone to push the blame off on the game and claim it's broken.

    What I find interesting about the bad AI play is that you can put a full team of AI players out there and they will play fantastic. The moment you put that human element in, all of a sudden people complain they're bad. The one factor there making the difference is the human. Again, there is no accountability. The human will say their AI are terrible, but if they end up in the box and it's all AI, they'll play very well. The human automatically thinks they're the best player out there when in many cases it's them that is causing the poor play.

    I actually got a good chuckle out of this, thank you! To think that every human complaining about AI issues is simply “puck chasing” or “out of position” is nothing short of preposterous.

    Again, weak-side wings randomly leaving their position to come to the strong side because you’re not where the AI thinks you should be (despite being between the puck and the net and definitely in-position) is a fault of the game. That’s not to say people don’t puck chase, but to simplify the argument to “AI is perfect, you’re out of position” is either willingly obtuse or naive.

    I’ll give you this though, the AI opponents offline play very structured together. The problem I feel is that they don’t know how to adapt to any positioning that’s not 100% what they expect. Play offline for five minutes locked as a wing and you’ll see your opposite winger chase the puck more than any human could dream of simply because you’re not doing exactly what the computer expects.

    Being a former hockey player and now a hockey coach, it’s maddening to watch as there’s no “perfect position” on every play. This isn’t football, this is hockey. The game is full of read and react instances and it’s too big of a chore/headache to watch AI players let someone on the backdoor get wide open due to me playing an angle that is correct and good positioning, but not 100% what the CPU wants me to do which gives my opponent a scoring chance.

    This is why I don’t play 1v1 online. It’s a laughable excuse for hockey. The AI are not even remotely dynamic enough to truly play “realistic” hockey because they can’t read plays the way I do. They’re easily exploitable, and now that hitting has been removed from the game for the “elite” players who haven’t touched an ice surface before, this fact becomes even more noticeable.

    If you want a good experience without playing 6v6, the only way to do it is offline with sliders because 1.03+ vanilla is nothing short of a danglefest roller-hockey game.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    j0rtsu67 wrote: »
    It would be interesting to hear @NHLDev's opinion on this one.

    I spoke to our lead Gameplay engineer who has also been a lead Online engineer for some perspective before jumping into this one and confirmed that the delay that a player may experience due to different network conditions in either a P2P game or a Server based game will not impact the ai on either side. The game is running at a set update that has to remain in sync.



    I understand how the game has to remain in sync, but when you are lagging, are you not in sync? How can you lag, but not your AI? How can the AI interact properly with you if you yourself are lagging?

    Sorry, but maybe your response is clear for you, but for us dweebs that don't work in the industry, it isn't very clear. At least, not to me. I would appreciate some elaboration, if possible.

    Agreed. Never understood the lag argument where it can make your AI play worse. Has anyone had laggy/delay input games where your AI plays great? Because I have.

  • jake19ny wrote: »

    I’ve only been matched up with teams like that a handful of times I was using an extreme example. I just think they should match teams better but you are right MLB has a bigger pool of people online but EA could definitely take a cue from their tier system for matchups. I also agree with you that the AI in this game plays very well in all modes except HUT which is why I believe the P2P connection has to have something to do with it. It would definitely explain why some games they are excellent and others inept. I can assure you some of the head scratching things the AI does are totally out of user control. A bad position or blown coverage happening here or there in a game is one thing but having the AI seem lost and clueless a whole game while other games they play amazing leads me to believe their is an issue. Because it happens sometimes and not always and people usually have a good connection to their WiFi when it does it makes them think the game is predetermined when really it’s their connection to their opponent that’s jacking it up. No excuse for EA not to have dedicated servers to a mode that is designed to generate them extra revenue. Until that day comes these debates will rage on.

    The problem with dedicated servers is that it can mean it's a worse connection for many due to the distance. The good thing about P2P is that you typically get someone in your region so it provides a better connection than one much farther away. Just something to consider when it comes to dedicated servers. They also are very expensive. I don't know for sure, but I would be willing to bet that EA isn't the only company to use a P2P connection with head to head games.

    You never really have a good connection when it's wireless. Sure, it's table enough for general internet usage, but it's just not good for gaming. Especially when dealing with a puck zooming around the ice where 12 players are playing for control of it. A bad connection isn't going to change the AI's behavior. It's going to make the game much harder to play of course, but they don't get dumb just because the connection is bad. I think the issue is more that not every game is the same. Look at real sports. Teams don't normally play exactly the same every game. They win and lose according to how they and their opponents are playing. That's in the simplest of terms. There's a ton of real world variables going on. Just like you can't expect a real team to play exactly the same way every time, you can't expect the video game to play the same way. There's just too much to account for, but people rarely admit they are part of the problem.
  • jake19ny
    688 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Sinbin wrote: »
    jake19ny wrote: »

    I’ve only been matched up with teams like that a handful of times I was using an extreme example. I just think they should match teams better but you are right MLB has a bigger pool of people online but EA could definitely take a cue from their tier system for matchups. I also agree with you that the AI in this game plays very well in all modes except HUT which is why I believe the P2P connection has to have something to do with it. It would definitely explain why some games they are excellent and others inept. I can assure you some of the head scratching things the AI does are totally out of user control. A bad position or blown coverage happening here or there in a game is one thing but having the AI seem lost and clueless a whole game while other games they play amazing leads me to believe their is an issue. Because it happens sometimes and not always and people usually have a good connection to their WiFi when it does it makes them think the game is predetermined when really it’s their connection to their opponent that’s jacking it up. No excuse for EA not to have dedicated servers to a mode that is designed to generate them extra revenue. Until that day comes these debates will rage on.

    The problem with dedicated servers is that it can mean it's a worse connection for many due to the distance. The good thing about P2P is that you typically get someone in your region so it provides a better connection than one much farther away. Just something to consider when it comes to dedicated servers. They also are very expensive. I don't know for sure, but I would be willing to bet that EA isn't the only company to use a P2P connection with head to head games.

    You never really have a good connection when it's wireless. Sure, it's table enough for general internet usage, but it's just not good for gaming. Especially when dealing with a puck zooming around the ice where 12 players are playing for control of it. A bad connection isn't going to change the AI's behavior. It's going to make the game much harder to play of course, but they don't get dumb just because the connection is bad. I think the issue is more that not every game is the same. Look at real sports. Teams don't normally play exactly the same every game. They win and lose according to how they and their opponents are playing. That's in the simplest of terms. There's a ton of real world variables going on. Just like you can't expect a real team to play exactly the same way every time, you can't expect the video game to play the same way. There's just too much to account for, but people rarely admit they are part of the problem.

    If your right and the AI plays different game to game or differently based on how you or your opponent are playing then that would mean that there is a mechanism, hot and cold, or momentum swing built into the Al which is pretty much what EA denies. Even if it’s not designed to choose winners or losers but rather to capture the ups and downs that real teams experience in real hockey it would be something affecting outcomes of games out of the users control. How exactly would the game decide how many times and when the AI would not play well in online matchups? Again I’m not saying I believe that’s happrning I’m just saying based on your answer it would mean that during an online matchup, that for all intensive purpose is supposed to be fairly even outside of human player skill and build of the teams, something else plays a roll in how that game goes.
    Bottom line is games should be decided based on who plays better not by who’s AI plays better.
    Post edited by jake19ny on
  • I really believe, that there is some kind of bonus for worse players. Every time I add better playe I have more trouble scoring
  • Played a game yesterday and my opponent was the home team. After 5 minutes of a good game where it looked like anyone could win I scored to go up 1-0. My opponent paused the game and when it finally started up my team was obviously so much slower and I had occasional skipping. I lost 3-2 in OT and I have no doubt when he paused he was setting up something to download or playing a video in the background. He clearly knew how to take advantage of the P2P connection. So frustrating
  • headup81
    99 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    20 pages to explain why the game plays like it has DDA but it’s most definitely not DDA. What’s that saying? If it’s smells like poop, tastes like poop etc. You guys are incredible.
  • headup81 wrote: »
    20 pages to explain why the game plays like it has DDA but it’s most definitely not DDA. What’s that saying? If it’s smells like poop, tastes like poop etc. You guys are incredible.

    We are in a loop.
  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    jake19ny wrote: »
    If your right and the AI plays different game to game or differently based on how you or your opponent are playing then that would mean that there is a mechanism, hot and cold, or momentum swing built into the Al which is pretty much what EA denies. Even if it’s not designed to choose winners or losers but rather to capture the ups and downs that real teams experience in real hockey it would be something affecting outcomes of games out of the users control. How exactly would the game decide how many times and when the AI would not play well in online matchups? Again I’m not saying I believe that’s happrning I’m just saying based on your answer it would mean that during an online matchup, that for all intensive purpose is supposed to be fairly even outside of human player skill and build of the teams, something else plays a roll in how that game goes.

    Bottom line is games should be decided based on who plays better not by who’s AI plays better.

    How does that prove there is some kind of mechanic forcing momentum? I'm saying how you play with keeping your players in good position makes a big difference. EA has repeatedly stated there is no momentum, ice tilt, catch up logic, etc. People just refuse to believe they could be the ones at fault. Skill is the deciding factor in most games. If you win more than you lose, you're more skilled than the majority of your opponents. Yes, we all will take losses to those we deem not as skilled, but you did something to give them a chance to score. That's your fault. Not the game.

  • Sinbin
    1331 posts Member
    Kirja1982 wrote: »
    I really believe, that there is some kind of bonus for worse players. Every time I add better playe I have more trouble scoring

    That would mean every game you win it's because the computer thinks your team is worse and scripts the outcome or are you saying it only happens against you and not against your opponents?
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