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And just like that...the optimism faded

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  • @KidShowtime1867 if we are in disagreement with that last comment, then we have nothing further to discuss on this forum.

    That's fine, but you need to own up to the fact that some of those goals are the result of your own poor defensive play.

    Again, not attacking you - just providing my opinion on why you are suffering from these goals being scored on you 'all the time'.

    Just for clarification, and may ease some tension or misconception.

    When you say high % shots, what are you referring to exactly? High % in this game, or high % in real life, say NHL caliber players?

    There's no tension on my side lol

    High % shots - come on now - we all know where those come from:

    nvIzUPC.jpg

    This area increases greatly with poor defensive play. So, if you're asking whether or not NHL 19 has a larger area of spots where goals go in more often - that's absolutely true due to the lack of people defending those shots based on the idea that they feel it shouldn't go in.




    You did not answer the question.

    When you specifically say high %, are you referring to real hockey or this game?

    Not trying to sound like a troll, but I am not looking for a hockey lesson. Just clarification on what you mean specifically when using that term.

    The high % scoring areas in NHL 19 are equal to the high % scoring areas in real life.

    I do agree that some shots from some of those areas go in more than others - there's no question about that. Even NHL_Dev has pointed out certain frame adjustments that can be made in those scenarios.

    However - the point still remains that those high % scoring areas can be defended if the skill is there to do so.

    No. The point is those same 2 plays have to be defended because that is all people try to resort to, every single game.

    Again, people mimic what they see as successful and soon enough, always the same stuff to defend.

    So, is it the fault of the game that those two plays are attempted all game, every game?

    Or, is it the fault of users who are incapable of defending those plays?

    Short side goals were VERY difficult when this game released. I remember as such when being open for them and the goalie hugged the post well. It wasn't impossible to score, but it was harder. Realistically, D's will trust their goalie in situations where short side is possible and play the past, but I will most likely play to block the short side.
  • GOW_LIKE_A_BOSS
    536 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    I complained about how annoying it was to so easily get bumped off the puck, but I honestly want it back. I win a lot more now than I did, but defense was easier, lag wasn't a huge deal - because your hitting position didn't have to be perfect - and the game was way more fun.

    Now I just do what I did last year. Circle in the corners and behind the net until I get that one-timer, or just whip shot short side if the pass is covered. Yeah I win more, but the game is much less fun. I don't have to be creative, and defense is extremely aggravating and hard.

    I'd honestly rather have the more unrealistic mechanic from 1.0 that made it easier to knock a guy off the puck. Yeah that wasn't realistic, but that unrealistic mechanic made the game as a whole FAR more realistic.

    Realistically, it should be as easy to separate the puck and puck carrier with your stick in Tuner 1.04 as it was with hits in Tuner 1.00. That would be the most realistic and most fun.
    Post edited by GOW_LIKE_A_BOSS on
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    Here's how I feel about short side goals with no screen, some of you may agree.

    If what you are saying is the top players in NHL 19 (top 200 or so) that scoring was too low for them, I don't understand why bringing back unrealistic short side goals was the way you went.

    You could of tuned goalies on one timers and deflections. I for the life of me do not understand why you would try to get scoring up in this way, it is unrealistic and it creates selfish play.

    A lot of those elite players high up in the rankings play 1-4 trap, yes it's less effective now but it's one of the reasons they struggle to score. They don't open up and because of it all games are low scoring.

    Honestly if you tuned goalies on one timers and deflections and took out short side cheese the game would feel and play a lot better and remove a ton of frustration just by doing that one thing.

    We didn’t make the goalies weaker on short side goals. We made them slower to react to passes they weren’t reading and we changed their ability to recover back against their momentum to reward teams playing the exact style you are recommending.

    As mentioned in another thread, we did make a few changes in terms of how far they challenge a shot when there is a secondary threat due to call outs about weak rebound goals. This could have made it a bit easier to score short side but in our testing, rolling back those changes didn’t really cut down short side shots where the player picked the corner. So the thought is that it is more around players not getting bumped off the puck as easy. In cases where players were beat before they may turn and still shove a player from behind causing puck loss and a lot of those may have led to goals on shots a second later like they may be now.

    Shot percentages are only up 1 percent even in the top 100 and part of that could be coming from a slight increase in one timer goals or breakfast goals from the changes to reacting to passes and recovering against mine run that I mean tokens above. Goals for and goals against are so close at the top level to what they were though that it is most likely the skill gap created on defense by lowering the ai aggression and less ability to still knock a player off the puck when beat. There will always be subjectivity in if we went too far or not with attempts at tuning but those who have adapted on defense or weren’t relying on those things the tuning has minimized aren’t seeing changes in their goals against.

    Player ability in modes like HUT also make a difference. We saw less goals like this earlier as less people had teams filled out with players with good shots and online versus games using standard NHL teams only have so many players that can shoot really well. EASHL games have potential for wide skill gaps with the more human players and various player class choices so there are a lot of factors there that would weigh into different outcomes.

    And none of this is to say we have stopped looking at things. We were playing around with goalie tuning at the end of last week regarding how goalies challenge shooters on the short side. In most cases where it becomes high percentage though, it is their reaction time vs a players ability to get a great shot off and that is why it still comes down to defense not giving good shooters any room.

    What I would really be curious about is goals in 3's as that's going to be your best indicator of the most frequently abused goals in this game.

    Honestly, out of any mode in the game, EASHL 3s is nothing but abusing goals such as the same breakaway move that always works.

    lol yeah, you can do the same move and it works every time. Could swear the game broke and showed the replay over and over. That's why ragging is a good strategy in EASHL 3's cause if ya get tripped it's 100% a goal. lol
  • I complained about how annoying it was to so easily get bumped off the puck, but I honestly want it back. I win a lot more now than I did, but defense was easier, lag wasn't a huge deal - because your hitting position didn't have to be perfect - and the game was way more fun.

    Now I just do what I did last year. Circle in the corners and behind the net until I get that one-timer, or just whip shot short side if the pass is covered. Yeah I win more, but the game is much less fun. I don't have to be creative, and defense is extremely aggravating and hard.

    I'd honestly rather have the more unrealistic mechanic from 1.0 that made it easier to knock a guy off the puck. Yeah that wasn't realistic, but that unrealistic mechanic made the game as a whole FAR more realistic.

    Realistically, it should be as easy to separate the puck and puck carrier with your stick in Tuner 1.04 as it was with hits in Tuner 1.00. That would be the most realistic and most fun.

    THIS. x 1000.

    I also win more often than not, but even the close games are just the boring 2018 battle of who can get more of the same shots off. The whole value of 2019 was that it was different. I don’t blame the players—the game dictates how to be successful and what kind of play will be rewarded, and players will obviously want to win. We need the day 1 tuners back, and fast. Otherwise feels like 2019 is dying.
  • LeFury_27
    203 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    I just played someone in versus, rangers vs calgary. I held him to 7 shots, while I had 34 myself. My best defensive effort I believe in any NHL game. Yet he still scored 2 short side cheese wrist shots with no screen from far out.

    It just shows that you can be a lot more skilled than your opponent and lose because of cheese goals.

    You out play someone that bad, cycle the puck, great passing plays, get robbed by his goalie 10+ times, hold him to 7 shots and somehow he still manages to put 2 goals in that never ever should have went in the net.

    You aren't rewarding players for playing like this intentionally, but you are by making short side so weak. It's easy to play like a troll now. Let those players learn to cycle the puck, make good passing plays or actually get in to a scoring area that would be a threat in the real NHL.

    At this point, why even try one timers or deflections? It's harder to score that way than doing short side goals. Game after game that is proven.

    Anyway, I believe I've made my points, said what I had to a say. Really what most people are asking for is realistic, fun hockey. I'll wait for the next tuner and hope it lives up to our expectations.
    Post edited by LeFury_27 on
  • Sinbin wrote: »

    It is the game's fault for granting such a high success rate of the same repetitive plays. It is also the player's fault for going to these plays, but how can you blame them when they consistently work, and even worse, work with less effort than setting up plays and moving the puck around?

    Simply put, great players know what to do to get those predictable outcomes, or plays, to then go for those consistent goals.

    Here's an even better one. Get a youtube video of a top VS player, and then find me an NHL game that is very similar. You will not find one because this game doesn't reflect that. The end result here is to make forwards score goals and sell HUT packs. It is, in the end, a business.

    Of course a for profit company wants to sell as much as they can. Nobody is forced to buy packs. Over the last few years they have given us more ways to get items for free. They've been doing the opposite of what you're saying and giving us less reasons to spend money. With all the challenges, monthly rewards, Competitive Seasons, etc, it's easier than ever to build a strong team without spending anything extra and not having to spend a huge chunk of time working the market.

    My point has nothing to do with the price of packs, or what you can grind for free. My point is the garbage tuning that promotes selfish plays, and this in all modes. In HUT, it is just an added bonus that some people feel they need to shell out $$$ to be more competitive to counter or reproduce the same garbage selfish plays to get those wins.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    1.0 Tuner skill gap: Players who make good passing plays and cycle the puck will win games.

    1.03 Tuner skill gap: Players who know how to exploit the goalies movement and score short side goals over and over will win games. This more accurately represents real life hockey.

    EA Logic: 1.03 has a bigger skill gap because we said so.

    Okay sure.. :wink:

    I literally just played a guy for 3 full periods and 4 min into over time, he tried scoring short side goals from the same spot about 50 times, it worked twice. I got em in over time though, nice to beat those fake, overly competitive hockey fans who look to abuse everything in game. It's so funny EA thinks that this represents real hockey, it's cringy tbh.

    This is not even close to what hockey is it's a joke of a game after this last twitch streamers tuner

    That’s all the game has turned into. Avoid hits and shoot for the cheese. Anyone who hasn’t noticed that the game got numbed down is oblivious.

    Just goes to show who EA caters to whiners and cheesers

    There’s nothing but negativity about the game since they tuned the game. It’s tell you they've done something wrong. Wether they admit to it or not the game isn’t the same product it was released or even in beta and people noticed.

    Exactly.

    Even the reviews prior to release were saying this was possibly the best NHL game in years, and a return to form. I can attest that the beta absolutely convinced me to buy this game, hands down. I could not believe that I was using EA and "real hockey" in the same sentence. I thought, man, finally, they let go of the last 5 years to finally make a "hockey" game.

    Now, after all this "tuning" all I see are complaints. No one is praising this game and I guarantee had this version been the beta, I would not even have played until the end of the beta. The player base has already considerably dwindled down. The game is 50% off on PSN, already.

    They can say all they want about skill gaps or people adjusting or whatnot, but the truth is, people couldn't adapt and create that skill gap so the game reverted to all the old cheese tactics and suddenly, look at that, players are "adapting".

    LOL. What a joke.
  • TheMajjam wrote: »
    @KidShowtime1867 if we are in disagreement with that last comment, then we have nothing further to discuss on this forum.

    That's fine, but you need to own up to the fact that some of those goals are the result of your own poor defensive play.

    Again, not attacking you - just providing my opinion on why you are suffering from these goals being scored on you 'all the time'.

    Just for clarification, and may ease some tension or misconception.

    When you say high % shots, what are you referring to exactly? High % in this game, or high % in real life, say NHL caliber players?

    There's no tension on my side lol

    High % shots - come on now - we all know where those come from:

    nvIzUPC.jpg

    This area increases greatly with poor defensive play. So, if you're asking whether or not NHL 19 has a larger area of spots where goals go in more often - that's absolutely true due to the lack of people defending those shots based on the idea that they feel it shouldn't go in.




    You did not answer the question.

    When you specifically say high %, are you referring to real hockey or this game?

    Not trying to sound like a troll, but I am not looking for a hockey lesson. Just clarification on what you mean specifically when using that term.

    The high % scoring areas in NHL 19 are equal to the high % scoring areas in real life.

    I do agree that some shots from some of those areas go in more than others - there's no question about that. Even NHL_Dev has pointed out certain frame adjustments that can be made in those scenarios.

    However - the point still remains that those high % scoring areas can be defended if the skill is there to do so.

    No. The point is those same 2 plays have to be defended because that is all people try to resort to, every single game.

    Again, people mimic what they see as successful and soon enough, always the same stuff to defend.

    So, is it the fault of the game that those two plays are attempted all game, every game?

    Or, is it the fault of users who are incapable of defending those plays?

    Short side goals were VERY difficult when this game released. I remember as such when being open for them and the goalie hugged the post well. It wasn't impossible to score, but it was harder. Realistically, D's will trust their goalie in situations where short side is possible and play the past, but I will most likely play to block the short side.

    The devs even stated that goalies were alot better on short side goals. It was one of the selling points. Just like the "Everyone's getting hit" propaganda.

    Promoted Legends in all modes, which has yet to happen. If they can't fix Legends in 2 months, there is some extremely major cause for concern here. I mean, really? 2 months and not yet fixed?

    Everything that was promoted and made this game purchase worthy was for the most part removed.
  • Everything that was promoted and made this game purchase worthy was for the most part removed.

    The legends thing is strange.. but what else was removed from this game?

    New skating engine? Still there. It might be tuned to your displeasure, but it's still there and many people (myself included) have no issues at all adjusting to the changes they've made.

    New Hitting? Still there. Tweaked? Sure. Those who haven't adjusted still don't like the changes, and that's okay - but the new mechanics they implemented are still there, ie: Not removed.

    World of Chel is still there. It wasn't removed. Drop-in Matchmaking is atrocious and I hope they sort that out too - but that's not a subjective issue that needs debate. It's an issue that simply exists and is being worked on - from what I'm understanding.

    So again - aside from the legends thing - what exactly was removed from this game?
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Everything that was promoted and made this game purchase worthy was for the most part removed.

    The legends thing is strange.. but what else was removed from this game?

    New skating engine? Still there. It might be tuned to your displeasure, but it's still there and many people (myself included) have no issues at all adjusting to the changes they've made.

    New Hitting? Still there. Tweaked? Sure. Those who haven't adjusted still don't like the changes, and that's okay - but the new mechanics they implemented are still there, ie: Not removed.

    World of Chel is still there. It wasn't removed. Drop-in Matchmaking is atrocious and I hope they sort that out too - but that's not a subjective issue that needs debate. It's an issue that simply exists and is being worked on - from what I'm understanding.

    So again - aside from the legends thing - what exactly was removed from this game?

    New skating engine, same old tactics. No adjustments needed on my part, just observations on how people play.

    New hitting, same old protective bubbles that weren't there 2 months ago.

    World of Chel, yea, it is still there. Doesn't work very well, and half the customization were removed due to visual mayhem.

    Devs stated short side goals were fixed, now they are not.

    Last but not least, team play and having to move the puck was removed, or should I say, replaced by selfish plays and puck hogging.

    Dude, come on. You know what I am talking about, so why are we getting into this discussion?
  • It's not a new hitting engine lolllll
  • It's not a new hitting engine lolllll

    Shoulder rub edition
  • https://1drv.ms/v/s!At-Fq8zvVjUCbd1yaeXxPJcOtcQ

    For those that are always requesting video evidence of things, please go to this link to view videos of goals scored in my one, and certainly only, game of NHL last night. I am the Hurricanes and he is playing with the Ducks. This guy is the epitome of what we complain about on this thread. Puck ragging clown show who attempts SS glitch every time down the ice, or goes into corners and wiggles around while checks bounce off of his players looking for cross crease one timers. Simply put this guy had no business beating me. For starters he scored 5 goals on his first 5 shots, so sick right? Didnt let it bother me, kept playing down 4-1 because I knew this guy had zero defensive IQ or any IQ for that matter. Tied it up at 4 - he scores another cheeser - tied it up at 5 and ultimately lost to a SS glitch goal. I outshot this guy 27 to 9 (SIX goals on NINE shots) and I tripled his TOA. You can look at my 5 goals and know that I'm not taking shots in poor areas, I move the puck extremely well and I believe on 2 of my goals I actually used manual sauce to alleviate the inevitable intercept.

    This is why folks no longer enjoy your game, EA. This is unacceptable and it's FAR from actual hockey. Listen to the community, go back to beta or 1.0 tuners because if you don't I can assure you next years edition is going to suffer tremendously.

    You should've taken control of this defender, and used DSS to take away the shot:


    S1Ib92g.png


    Instead of switching player control, you just (slowly) tried to hit the puck carrier while your A.I. (stupidly so) decided to cover the spot you just left.

    NXsG3mV.png


    Definitely some wacky A.I. there, but you are still ultimately responsible for letting this shot get off without any contest.

    Also - the link you provided shows only this goal and no others.

    Of course he could of used DSS to try not let that shot happen. Even better one of the 3 defenders should of stepped up for a hit since there was almost no pass option and 2 other defenders in good supporting position. BUT, a wrist shot from beyond the top of the circles (sure down main street) with no pass option for tap in, no screen (didn't even use the defender) should be saved 99.9% of the time unless its a perfect shot. Bottom line is these shots go in way too often in this game which makes it the defacto play players try 100 times/game. Sure you can defend them better but who's perfect? It wasn't as if that guy just backed off to his goalie or ran at him and missed. Goalie has to step out further (with no pass option in a threat area) and go down slower making his body take away most of the net on a shot like that.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    Here's how I feel about short side goals with no screen, some of you may agree.

    If what you are saying is the top players in NHL 19 (top 200 or so) that scoring was too low for them, I don't understand why bringing back unrealistic short side goals was the way you went.

    You could of tuned goalies on one timers and deflections. I for the life of me do not understand why you would try to get scoring up in this way, it is unrealistic and it creates selfish play.

    A lot of those elite players high up in the rankings play 1-4 trap, yes it's less effective now but it's one of the reasons they struggle to score. They don't open up and because of it all games are low scoring.

    Honestly if you tuned goalies on one timers and deflections and took out short side cheese the game would feel and play a lot better and remove a ton of frustration just by doing that one thing.

    We didn’t make the goalies weaker on short side goals. We made them slower to react to passes they weren’t reading and we changed their ability to recover back against their momentum to reward teams playing the exact style you are recommending.

    As mentioned in another thread, we did make a few changes in terms of how far they challenge a shot when there is a secondary threat due to call outs about weak rebound goals. This could have made it a bit easier to score short side but in our testing, rolling back those changes didn’t really cut down short side shots where the player picked the corner. So the thought is that it is more around players not getting bumped off the puck as easy. In cases where players were beat before they may turn and still shove a player from behind causing puck loss and a lot of those may have led to goals on shots a second later like they may be now.

    Shot percentages are only up 1 percent even in the top 100 and part of that could be coming from a slight increase in one timer goals or breakfast goals from the changes to reacting to passes and recovering against mine run that I mean tokens above. Goals for and goals against are so close at the top level to what they were though that it is most likely the skill gap created on defense by lowering the ai aggression and less ability to still knock a player off the puck when beat. There will always be subjectivity in if we went too far or not with attempts at tuning but those who have adapted on defense or weren’t relying on those things the tuning has minimized aren’t seeing changes in their goals against.

    Player ability in modes like HUT also make a difference. We saw less goals like this earlier as less people had teams filled out with players with good shots and online versus games using standard NHL teams only have so many players that can shoot really well. EASHL games have potential for wide skill gaps with the more human players and various player class choices so there are a lot of factors there that would weigh into different outcomes.

    And none of this is to say we have stopped looking at things. We were playing around with goalie tuning at the end of last week regarding how goalies challenge shooters on the short side. In most cases where it becomes high percentage though, it is their reaction time vs a players ability to get a great shot off and that is why it still comes down to defense not giving good shooters any room.

    Goalies should be the strongest possible.
  • For the beta and for about a month the goalies were good and after the whining and crying from the elite cheesers the goalies are trash
  • For the beta and for about a month the goalies were good and after the whining and crying from the elite cheesers the goalies are trash

    The issue is that everyone in the community were complaining the goalies were too good. It wasn't just the "Elites" or "Game Changers". Plenty of people were saying that scoring was too difficult. There were threads in which people were stating it were impossible to score on one timers when in reality, it's probably the easier goal to score in this game.

    There was a month long thread talking about how goalies were making ridiculous saves on multiple occasions in the same game. People were even complaining that games were only 1-0 going into the 3rd and requested more scoring. And all of this can be find right here in the threads. Again, this didn't come directly from the elite players, but the majority of the people on these boards.

    So what did EA do? They listened to this feedback and they adjusted to what the community wanted. When you have the Elites and the casuals all saying the same thing, then of course they are going to adjust.

    And I just want to note, I didn't want these changes either.

  • For the beta and for about a month the goalies were good and after the whining and crying from the elite cheesers the goalies are trash

    The issue is that everyone in the community were complaining the goalies were too good. It wasn't just the "Elites" or "Game Changers". Plenty of people were saying that scoring was too difficult. There were threads in which people were stating it were impossible to score on one timers when in reality, it's probably the easier goal to score in this game.

    There was a month long thread talking about how goalies were making ridiculous saves on multiple occasions in the same game. People were even complaining that games were only 1-0 going into the 3rd and requested more scoring. And all of this can be find right here in the threads. Again, this didn't come directly from the elite players, but the majority of the people on these boards.

    So what did EA do? They listened to this feedback and they adjusted to what the community wanted. When you have the Elites and the casuals all saying the same thing, then of course they are going to adjust.

    And I just want to note, I didn't want these changes either.

    So if the goalies were “too good”, was there a reason to make them beyond terrible like now because every thing short side is goal. Because right now, goalies are such garbage. They can claim the didn’t touch the goalies and say players adapted but that’s false.

    That only thing goalies were a too good on was one timers. As I said before, that on the dman to take that away.
  • If the goalies were too good, what they should of tuned them on is one timers, deflections, shots from the slot and screened shots.

    Instead we now have goalies that let in short side goals from far out, with no screen way too often.

    Anyone just watch the Habs Vs Capitals? How about Holtby and Price, what a game!

    Too bad NHL 19 doesn't give goalies credit for how good they actually are.
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    If the goalies were too good, what they should of tuned them on is one timers, deflections, shots from the slot and screened shots.

    Instead we now have goalies that let in short side goals from far out, with no screen way too often.

    Anyone just watch the Habs Vs Capitals? How about Holtby and Price, what a game!

    Too bad NHL 19 doesn't give goalies credit for how good they actually are.

    First of all, the Sabres Vs Penguins game was a hell of a game as well.

    But anyways, I can pull up plenty of unscreened slapshot and wrist shot snipes on goalies occuring in the real NHL from the top of the circle. I can pull up 2-3 within the last few Sabres games I have watched. Ristolainen had one in OT a week or two ago against Price who is arguably the best goalie in the league.

    That being said, what does too often mean? Are you seeing them occur every game? I witness them every 2-3 games. I see my opponents attempt them quite frequently, but I don't see the far out goals occur as often as some are saying.

    I have see more goals scored since the latest tuner, but I am still getting a few shutouts as well. So maybe I'm just getting lucky with matchmaking?
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    If the goalies were too good, what they should of tuned them on is one timers, deflections, shots from the slot and screened shots.

    Instead we now have goalies that let in short side goals from far out, with no screen way too often.

    Anyone just watch the Habs Vs Capitals? How about Holtby and Price, what a game!

    Too bad NHL 19 doesn't give goalies credit for how good they actually are.

    First of all, the Sabres Vs Penguins game was a hell of a game as well.

    But anyways, I can pull up plenty of unscreened slapshot and wrist shot snipes on goalies occuring in the real NHL from the top of the circle. I can pull up 2-3 within the last few Sabres games I have watched. Ristolainen had one in OT a week or two ago against Price who is arguably the best goalie in the league.

    That being said, what does too often mean? Are you seeing them occur every game? I witness them every 2-3 games. I see my opponents attempt them quite frequently, but I don't see the far out goals occur as often as some are saying.

    I have see more goals scored since the latest tuner, but I am still getting a few shutouts as well. So maybe I'm just getting lucky with matchmaking?

    Every few games is reasonable. But it happening multiple every single game? That’s a problem.
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