EA Forums - Banner

And just like that...the optimism faded

Replies

  • Here's an example of what I'm experiencing after the patch/tuner:

    dPFzaiN.gif

    During the BETA and before the patch/tuner, the D-man would've received the pass, planted his skates and then shifted towards the left while keeping the puck inside the zone. Now often times the d-man receives it correctly and then spins to turn around bringing the puck out of the zone. Worse still is that I'm holding LT to make the player face the net. But he still spins around like a merry-go-round.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    One thing I would like to see in the future (if it isn't already there in the game) is to have contested shots or passes be less accurate. If I have my stick out and I'm using it to cover your shot or passing lane, making it CONTESTED, it should be less accurate just like in real life as the player is trying to get around my screen.

    The accuracy of shots and passes should not change unless the player is getting bumped or the stick of the defender actually intercepts the pass/shot.

    My shot accuracy shouldn't go down just because your stick out..... your stick needs to make CONTACT and not just be CONTESTED.
  • Play the ai in hut challenges on all star and superstar and they contest shots and passes like it’s nothing lol. Funny that no matter what position you’re in the ai can get out of it.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Maybe we should try reverse psychology next year. If they release a perfectly tuned beta let’s just all say it’s awful so they don’t change anything?

    In all the years of them releasing a beta this gen I’ve never seen so much positive reaction. The wholesale changes to the tuner literally make no sense whatsoever. Isn’t the whole point of a beta to gauge community feedback and adjust accordingly, or not adjust at all if it’s well received?

    That is actually why we didn't change much at all from the Beta other than places where we got feedback where things could be improved. The two key areas were pokechecking vs tripping penalties and player differentiation in skating.

    For pokes and tripping, we held our ground in the overall direction and only added in the changes that were already complete for the Day 0 patch before we got feedback from Beta and hoped they would make up the delta in the cases that people called out as undeserved trips -- needing to get a slightly bigger piece of the player to cause a trip by shrinking in the collision volumes a bit so that just a hair of contact wouldn't trip anymore and fixing a few bugs where getting puck first wasn't negating the trip from happening. Other than that, the tripping logic is the same as it was.

    For skating, we increased the range in the impact agility has on players so that worse skaters weren't as agile as the best skaters. This change happened during the Beta and it wasn't until we added the other attempted change in the 1.2 patch that people started to call out the difference in pivoting. In our testing, that last change in 1.2 actually didn't really work and didn't have an impact so we started to look at what else people may feel. From what we can tell, it was the consistency changes for vision control that would have changed and possibly had an impact on what people were doing on the controller from muscle memory to work around those inconsistencies that created the biggest change for them. Those consistency changes were great for the game though as it meant more reliability in pivot directions and what way you wanted your player to turn to, etc.. If it meant that people had to relearn a few pieces that they were taking advantage of, it was worth it, since overall things were more consistent.

    In that time, players have adapted to the game and are better at using the stick mechanics and skating and players have moved up the ranks to play better and better competition. That in a lot of cases has a bigger impact on players perception of how the game plays than any of the changes in the tuner that are dialing things in.

    For modes where players are able to switch players, we made further changes to coincide with the big changes we made this year to defensive ai in non player locked games. When we launched the Beta, we already had defensive actions muted for the ai but skill zone was still getting called out. We waited on this one for a while to see if people were adapting and to see what the skill gap looked like in competitive play. We decided to make a few more tuning changes around this direction to see if we could improve things further and increase the skill gap further for playing defense in those games.

    The last change we made that has met some contention was based on feedback that defenders weren't punished enough for getting beat and still able to push players off the puck from behind at low relative speeds when they actually weren't able to catch up and get that leverage. We waited a while on this one as overall the game was behaving as intended and if we did anything, we wanted to make an isolated change to try and fix that issue when we did agree with the cases of players getting shoved off the puck too easily from behind at low relative speeds. The previous tuning was a bit extreme and it made sense to try this change to fine tune it to remove those cases. Even though people will say players can protect the puck all day, it still has to do with limiting relative speed of the collision and defenders having to be smarter about where and how they commit.

    Well, hitting is severely gimped and stick lifts are useless.

    As for skating, it was the pivot speed that was too fast, not the turning speed. Sure, you tuned it, but now we have so much less agility. It's as if you are trying to emulate TPS.

    As for hitting from behind, it was the AI that was way too overpowered in that situation for the most part. The AI is still too powerful on physical contact in all situations. It's as if it isn't bound by the same rules and tunings as humans. They need very little momentum to smack you around.

    Also, while hitting from behind was OP, this should not apply to all situations. Now, it affects hits from the side, on an angle, and we now have people entering the O zone while backskating.....
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Maybe we should try reverse psychology next year. If they release a perfectly tuned beta let’s just all say it’s awful so they don’t change anything?

    In all the years of them releasing a beta this gen I’ve never seen so much positive reaction. The wholesale changes to the tuner literally make no sense whatsoever. Isn’t the whole point of a beta to gauge community feedback and adjust accordingly, or not adjust at all if it’s well received?

    That is actually why we didn't change much at all from the Beta other than places where we got feedback where things could be improved. The two key areas were pokechecking vs tripping penalties and player differentiation in skating.

    For pokes and tripping, we held our ground in the overall direction and only added in the changes that were already complete for the Day 0 patch before we got feedback from Beta and hoped they would make up the delta in the cases that people called out as undeserved trips -- needing to get a slightly bigger piece of the player to cause a trip by shrinking in the collision volumes a bit so that just a hair of contact wouldn't trip anymore and fixing a few bugs where getting puck first wasn't negating the trip from happening. Other than that, the tripping logic is the same as it was.

    For skating, we increased the range in the impact agility has on players so that worse skaters weren't as agile as the best skaters. This change happened during the Beta and it wasn't until we added the other attempted change in the 1.2 patch that people started to call out the difference in pivoting. In our testing, that last change in 1.2 actually didn't really work and didn't have an impact so we started to look at what else people may feel. From what we can tell, it was the consistency changes for vision control that would have changed and possibly had an impact on what people were doing on the controller from muscle memory to work around those inconsistencies that created the biggest change for them. Those consistency changes were great for the game though as it meant more reliability in pivot directions and what way you wanted your player to turn to, etc.. If it meant that people had to relearn a few pieces that they were taking advantage of, it was worth it, since overall things were more consistent.

    In that time, players have adapted to the game and are better at using the stick mechanics and skating and players have moved up the ranks to play better and better competition. That in a lot of cases has a bigger impact on players perception of how the game plays than any of the changes in the tuner that are dialing things in.

    For modes where players are able to switch players, we made further changes to coincide with the big changes we made this year to defensive ai in non player locked games. When we launched the Beta, we already had defensive actions muted for the ai but skill zone was still getting called out. We waited on this one for a while to see if people were adapting and to see what the skill gap looked like in competitive play. We decided to make a few more tuning changes around this direction to see if we could improve things further and increase the skill gap further for playing defense in those games.

    The last change we made that has met some contention was based on feedback that defenders weren't punished enough for getting beat and still able to push players off the puck from behind at low relative speeds when they actually weren't able to catch up and get that leverage. We waited a while on this one as overall the game was behaving as intended and if we did anything, we wanted to make an isolated change to try and fix that issue when we did agree with the cases of players getting shoved off the puck too easily from behind at low relative speeds. The previous tuning was a bit extreme and it made sense to try this change to fine tune it to remove those cases. Even though people will say players can protect the puck all day, it still has to do with limiting relative speed of the collision and defenders having to be smarter about where and how they commit.

    Well, hitting is severely gimped and stick lifts are useless.

    As for skating, it was the pivot speed that was too fast, not the turning speed. Sure, you tuned it, but now we have so much less agility. It's as if you are trying to emulate TPS.

    As for hitting from behind, it was the AI that was way too overpowered in that situation for the most part. The AI is still too powerful on physical contact in all situations. It's as if it isn't bound by the same rules and tunings as humans. They need very little momentum to smack you around.

    Also, while hitting from behind was OP, this should not apply to all situations. Now, it affects hits from the side, on an angle, and we now have people entering the O zone while backskating.....

    Played 6s last night as an OFD for my first time since the beta. I honestly didn’t feel that much difference in skating, maybe that’s because I was using a class that is supposed to be proficient at it? Anyway, my physical play was what you’d expect from an OFD (I run heavy hitter 2 as well) but I didn’t see myself getting caught because of failed hitting that much.

    I usually play pretty passively as that’s how I was taught back in the 09-11 competitive years where every button seemed to be the penalty button and hitting did nothing on gliding opponents. Most of the complaints I’ve heard are from low speed hitting and if TWD and DFD can’t make low-speed impacts to at least delay the attacker from passing/shooting then that’s a huge step backwards.

    Only thing I thought needed fixing was bumps from behind. Didn’t see much of those last night so that’s a positive for me.
  • Havent played this sorry game in well over a week now and magically all of my anger problems have subsided. EA has really outdone themselves this time around - I won't be back this year and most likely the next.
  • TheMajjam
    727 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    One thing I would like to see in the future (if it isn't already there in the game) is to have contested shots or passes be less accurate. If I have my stick out and I'm using it to cover your shot or passing lane, making it CONTESTED, it should be less accurate just like in real life as the player is trying to get around my screen.

    The accuracy of shots and passes should not change unless the player is getting bumped or the stick of the defender actually intercepts the pass/shot.

    My shot accuracy shouldn't go down just because your stick out..... your stick needs to make CONTACT and not just be CONTESTED.

    I would advocate maybe more automatic actions to either hinder and/or stop passes and shots. Right now, the DSS is useless. It doesn't deter passes, shots, or even players for that matter. Poke check is more effective in breaking up passes than the Defenseless Skill Penalty Stick.
  • EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    The game a quick 180 from what we liked from the beta.

    The speed is an example. Many people feel that speed is slower than it was the beta and launch. In my opinion, I feel like it was faster. It feels like my puck moving defensemen drags cinderblocks across the ice.

    Puck pick ups are terrible now and seem to be glued to an offensive players stick (see the other different thread about this)

    I just feel like any optimism about this game went down into the gutter. Just the forums or any social media about this game and see how negative it is (maybe it was before, not too sure). Any thing good EA had going for this game they seemed to throw it away for the whiners who couldn’t adapt.

    Here I am, waiting for legends on create-a-Team........ it’s like the simplest thing they promised but had yet to provide
  • GramerProfesur
    537 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    You can’t actually believe what you wrote, @NHLDev .”Differentiation In skating” you just slashed it across the board, the fastest skaters are now slower and the slower skaters are now immobile. If the goal was differentiating skating based on attributes that did not happen. If there was a true “difference” between player types the fastest skaters would remain fast and agile and be easier to manage than lower ranked players

    I’m tired of being spoon fed this logic, anyone who truly believes they have developed a strategy of differentiating players in skating, hitting, and poke checking BASED ON ATTRIBUTES ALONE is fooling themselves. They don’t know how to do it so they just nerf it across the board so only certain players or player classes online are useable. Gaudreau hitting as well as Chara? Decrease hitting across the board, Chara struggle to rub people out and Gaudreau can’t hit anyone without charging! Ovechkin can poke as well as Bergeron? Increase puck control so neither player is effective at poke checking and you have to use a higher ranked player to even have a chance! It’s ridiculous how something so basic is difficult for this team.

    Beta: Blake Wheeler is average skater and a McDavid is overpowered (compared to his colleagues)

    Tuner: Wheeler is immobile but McDavid is good/average (compared to real life)

    I’d rather have the former....
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    @NHLDev

    As far as I can tell, the changes affected players pivoting in that now there are a lot more 360° spins when trying to stop and move into a new direction (just as was the problem with NHL 18). I agree with the view that players with less skating ability needed to be differentiated from players with higher skating ability, but something went askew at some point. It's especially noticeable when your d-man receives the puck at the blue line and instead of staying facing the net, he'll now sometimes spin around and cross the puck back out causing an offside.

    The other issue that affects users that try to play defensively is that DSS is now almost as much of a liability as poking or stick lifting from bad angles. I had a game last night where I was just had my stick out straight in front of me trying to knock the puck off my opponent as he was weaving left and right trying to get me to move out of position. I didn't budge, but he continued and skated into my blade and went down like a sack of potatoes. 2 Minutes for tripping... Other times when I accidently poke out of position or try to stick lift and miss, I'll accept that as those are my fault. But I don't understand why DSS needed to be tweaked to make it the way it is now, almost on par with poking?

    If anything DSS needed a buff to allow it to create MORE incidental contact and knock the puck off a stick so players would want to use it more instead of the poke check, hitting or stick lifting.

    Where I would once dominate defensively and not allow my opponents any chances, now I have to play a cat and mouse game with him. Keeping my body within range, but not really capable of doing anything for fear or getting called. Because if I put out my stick, he'll just knick it with his skates and go down. If I poke, he goes down. If I hit him near the boards, I get a boarding penalty. If I try to stick lift him, he's weaving left and right and I'll catch his hand instead of the puck. So all I can do is wait and watch as he dances like a ballerina in the corner, hoping that when he does finally pass the puck, it won't go through 3 of my players for an easy one-t goal for him.

    One thing I would like to see in the future (if it isn't already there in the game) is to have contested shots or passes be less accurate. If I have my stick out and I'm using it to cover your shot or passing lane, making it CONTESTED, it should be less accurate just like in real life as the player is trying to get around my screen.

    For the skating, it should actually be more reliable so that is unfortunate to hear you are having more issues after the changes. It is possible that something you are doing on the controller now is asking for the player to turn towards the blueline rather than in towards the net and that same action before was more commonly turning inside -- but that also means that if a player wanted to turn the other way they couldn't in the past which was part of our consistency changes to make sure we interpreted directions on the left stick and rolls more reliably so that players had more fine control over the directions they wanted to go so they wouldn't turn into a defender or pivot a way they didn't intend. I just jumped into practice to try it out over the course of 20+ passes to left and right handed players at the point and could only recreate the turn towards the blueline if I manually aimed to that lower hemisphere on that near side on the left stick asking for that turn direction. I am not sure if it was different with the puckup that was played for you but since you are saying it happens often, I assume it is more of a muscle memory thing for what you are doing on the left stick that is somehow carrying over in the way you roll to move to the left after passing down towards that point at the angle. I am also surprised to hear you are pressing the left trigger there as your player never goes into the backskate at all. We did a lot to ensure even if you press the left trigger a few frames late, it was responsive enough to exit mid forward pivot and transition that into backskating -- also asking for backskating with the puck without holding A would always pivot through the net so he wouldn't pivot away from the net with LT held as well. That actually brings up the point that maybe not all people know that if you hold A before you ask for a pivot, he can use a protect puck pivot and will turn the opposite way. This is something that we added this year and works quite reliably. This can be handy when you recognize the side a defensive threat is on and want to pivot the opposite way and can be used creatively to control pivot directions, etc.

    When it comes to the defensive actions and control, most of this sounds like skill gap to me and I know you are an experienced player with the game but there are plenty of players that go through games holding teams to very low scoring chance totals and goals against without taking penalties.

    The defensive skill stick if anything this year in the tuning only got more forgiving as we decreased the collision volumes used for tripping which means it requires a bigger piece of the player to cause a trip. During the Beta, it took less contact to cause a trip and now it takes a bigger piece of the player to cause it.

    DSS should be a liability at bad angles if used incorrectly but we have specific conditions for it to promote players showing the control they have. For starters, you can press your RS first before asking to extend your stick to blend to the position and angle you want directly so that you don't just go straight at the puck like a pokecheck would. Also, if you go outside in on one leg, you won't trip them but inside out it will. This allows you to try and reach manually with more lenience but if you do it carelessly and go through both legs, it will cause a trip. If you do go through that one leg outside in, it won't cause a trip but it will also negate your ability to get stick or puck contact as you physically shouldn't be able to get that stick there. Also, aside from having manual control to pull the stick away if you feel you are going to trip a player, as soon as you let go of it, it won't trip them as the blend out of the state can't cause a trip either. If you get stick/puck first, you also won't trip them as you can only trip an active puck carrier (keep in mind that a player in the middle of a loose puck deke is considered an active puck carrier as well though). This means you can be pretty aggressive with it if you are confident you will disrupt the stick /puck with your stick first.

    As for the contested puck. We made a lot of improvements over the last few years for sticks and body to disrupt shots properly on both wristshots and slapshots as well as puck receptions in how we handle the incidental contact but we don't hinder shots just from a player being close by. That is actually a calculation that was there prior to NHL 13 but it is something I had removed as I didn't think it was accurate. It is true that players feel pressure at times when contested but that usually results in them rushing a shot or having to deke over quickly before shooting and we handle those conditions properly on the shot model side in our physical factors as you get more accuracy if you are settled rather than if you rush a shot or move the puck quickly before shooting. So in my eyes, we handle this better rather than just assuming the player should feel pressured. There is obviously the side that a player could psychologically fear more by being on the ice about to get hit than from the comfort of their couch at home but overall, it is better to handle these things by what we read through the controller and what physically happens than to assume something of the player. It just means the defender has to actually disrupt the play and/or force something on the puck carrier rather than just being in the vicinity and us possibly getting that contextually wrong at times.
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Here's an example of what I'm experiencing after the patch/tuner:

    During the BETA and before the patch/tuner, the D-man would've received the pass, planted his skates and then shifted towards the left while keeping the puck inside the zone. Now often times the d-man receives it correctly and then spins to turn around bringing the puck out of the zone. Worse still is that I'm holding LT to make the player face the net. But he still spins around like a merry-go-round.

    Just replied to this in my previous replay to you but tried to do it myself a few times and think that the times it can still happen are if the puck reception is such that it turns your player that way so based on the puck position after he finishes the reception (pulling that puck back to neutral), it can find the quickest way from the puck to where you are requesting to go as turning away from the net. This wouldn't be new after the tuner as it has to do with the puck's relative position in a given pickup more than it does the changes to pivot direction based on the left stick. Pre and Post tuner in this cases, you are better to roll through the top half of your left stick if you want to take the longer path to that direction.

    We could definitely do something contextually with the blueline there to force a pivot direction but it is still probably better to give players full control as there may be cases where they think they have room to turn that long way rather than being forced to turn into an incoming defender and where they want to protect it and are asking to go that way for a reason. It is something we can keep an eye on though.
  • No one asked for changes to the skating. We all loved it. This is such a waste of time and energy trying to debate.

    See ya in NHL 20.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    @NHLDev



    One thing I would like to see in the future (if it isn't already there in the game) is to have contested shots or passes be less accurate. If I have my stick out and I'm using it to cover your shot or passing lane, making it CONTESTED, it should be less accurate just like in real life as the player is trying to get around my screen.

    I love this idea!!! Like real life.
  • I'm not seeing the logic in calling it a skills gap or control input issues when a lot of what we are complaining about is comparing the movement and inputs of our guy now vs. our same builds and control inputs a few weeks ago. We all got worse at skating and started holding the controller upside down?
  • barrett098 wrote: »
    Bring back the beta build! It baffles my mind how they made it so much worse than it was in beta (gameplay). Most predicted it would happen too. Or maybe they sabotaged it on purpose to hype up NHL 20?

    ^ This, bring back beta build. Best game in years and now the tuners have destroyed the game.


  • jiajji
    329 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    jrago73 wrote: »
    I'm not seeing the logic in calling it a skills gap or control input issues when a lot of what we are complaining about is comparing the movement and inputs of our guy now vs. our same builds and control inputs a few weeks ago. We all got worse at skating and started holding the controller upside down?


    The get good meme.

    I'm not complaining about losing to people who are better or because I'm not capable of the same cheese play.

    I'm not pleased that I have to engage in the cheese in order to compete.

    Big difference

    I'm not going argue because a developer flat out said they enjoyed/wanted this game to play this way, but suggesting the reason I think its lame is because of a skill gap misses the mark.

  • NHLDev wrote: »

    In that time, players have adapted to the game and are better at using the stick mechanics and skating and players have moved up the ranks to play better and better competition. That in a lot of cases has a bigger impact on players perception of how the game plays than any of the changes in the tuner that are dialing things in.

    I hope this comment doesn't get lost in the shuffle. It's the main reason why we hear a lot of 'beta was better' on the forums, reddit, etc.

    The beta was 'better' because you faced competition still learning how to master the game.

    After a couple of months, you end up playing against people who've gotten VERY good at the mechanics.. and then you start to hear 'beta was better!'



    Uh, what? No. Absolutely no.

    The beta was better because skating was better, hitting was better, stick lifts worked (too well I may add), you couldn't rag the puck and had to cycle it around. Actually made this game look and play like hockey for once.

    We felt we had control. Skating was explosive and crisp. We felt we had predictable outcomes within a given situation. Most of all, it was fun because it was fresh and different. Every position could make a difference and playing them felt rewarding. Defense mattered. Goalies could make a difference and the better ones stood out.

    Now? It is basically back to NHL 18 without being able to spam poke checks and stick lifts are pretty much completely ruined.

    The beta was better because simply put, it was better. It didn't feel clunky like 15, 16, 17 and 18. More importantly, it didn't have TPS. It didn't have protective bubbles around players. All it needed was minor tweaks, such as:

    - Stick lifts were way too OP and spammable. Needed to be toned down.

    - Poke checks needed to be a little more forgiving. Kind of like now, so good job there.

    - Nudges from behind creating stumbles need a minor tweak. AI is too powerful on nudges from behind, and btw they still are. Now hitting is nerfed at slow speeds or within close quarters. At low speeds a Dangler can shrug off Enforcers..... Gimme a break.

    - 360 spins were too OP (it has been tuned now btw, good job on that).

    Off the top of my head, pretty much all it needed. Of course, now it got patched and became a dumpster fire trying to imitate TPS. Now, it is simply danglers running everywhere like headless chickens because hitting has become practically useless. It has become extremely hard to check someone with the same class as your player. You can pretty much hit anything smaller than your class, provided you can catch them. So basically your danglers have replaced those 5 foot 8 builds that people loved to run in NHL 14. Yay! Good times......
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    In that time, players have adapted to the game and are better at using the stick mechanics and skating and players have moved up the ranks to play better and better competition. That in a lot of cases has a bigger impact on players perception of how the game plays than any of the changes in the tuner that are dialing things in.

    I hope this comment doesn't get lost in the shuffle. It's the main reason why we hear a lot of 'beta was better' on the forums, reddit, etc.

    The beta was 'better' because you faced competition still learning how to master the game.

    After a couple of months, you end up playing against people who've gotten VERY good at the mechanics.. and then you start to hear 'beta was better!'



    Uh, what? No. Absolutely no.

    The beta was better because skating was better, hitting was better, stick lifts worked (too well I may add), you couldn't rag the puck and had to cycle it around. Actually made this game look and play like hockey for once.

    We felt we had control. Skating was explosive and crisp. We felt we had predictable outcomes within a given situation. Most of all, it was fun because it was fresh and different. Every position could make a difference and playing them felt rewarding. Defense mattered. Goalies could make a difference and the better ones stood out.

    Now? It is basically back to NHL 18 without being able to spam poke checks and stick lifts are pretty much completely ruined.

    The beta was better because simply put, it was better. It didn't feel clunky like 15, 16, 17 and 18. More importantly, it didn't have TPS. It didn't have protective bubbles around players. All it needed was minor tweaks, such as:

    - Stick lifts were way too OP and spammable. Needed to be toned down.

    - Poke checks needed to be a little more forgiving. Kind of like now, so good job there.

    - Nudges from behind creating stumbles need a minor tweak. AI is too powerful on nudges from behind, and btw they still are. Now hitting is nerfed at slow speeds or within close quarters. At low speeds a Dangler can shrug off Enforcers..... Gimme a break.

    - 360 spins were too OP (it has been tuned now btw, good job on that).

    Off the top of my head, pretty much all it needed. Of course, now it got patched and became a dumpster fire trying to imitate TPS. Now, it is simply danglers running everywhere like headless chickens because hitting has become practically useless. It has become extremely hard to check someone with the same class as your player. You can pretty much hit anything smaller than your class, provided you can catch them. So basically your danglers have replaced those 5 foot 8 builds that people loved to run in NHL 14. Yay! Good times......

    You make valid points, but I still feel that players generally favor the beta because the skill gap was far less.

    As the game's users become more familiar - skill gap closes and people begin facing tougher competition, making all of the things you've mentioned become far more pronounced - especially in times when those mechanics don't work to your favor.

    When they didn't work to your favor in the beta, it was "that's new and neat - feels different and more realistic'


    But, when you're tasked with accomplishing the same mechanics in a far more and increasingly competitive setting - they are 'clunky', 'OP'(if executed efficiently by your opponent), and 'broken'.

  • NHLDev wrote: »

    In that time, players have adapted to the game and are better at using the stick mechanics and skating and players have moved up the ranks to play better and better competition. That in a lot of cases has a bigger impact on players perception of how the game plays than any of the changes in the tuner that are dialing things in.

    I hope this comment doesn't get lost in the shuffle. It's the main reason why we hear a lot of 'beta was better' on the forums, reddit, etc.

    The beta was 'better' because you faced competition still learning how to master the game.

    After a couple of months, you end up playing against people who've gotten VERY good at the mechanics.. and then you start to hear 'beta was better!'



    Uh, what? No. Absolutely no.

    The beta was better because skating was better, hitting was better, stick lifts worked (too well I may add), you couldn't rag the puck and had to cycle it around. Actually made this game look and play like hockey for once.

    We felt we had control. Skating was explosive and crisp. We felt we had predictable outcomes within a given situation. Most of all, it was fun because it was fresh and different. Every position could make a difference and playing them felt rewarding. Defense mattered. Goalies could make a difference and the better ones stood out.

    Now? It is basically back to NHL 18 without being able to spam poke checks and stick lifts are pretty much completely ruined.

    The beta was better because simply put, it was better. It didn't feel clunky like 15, 16, 17 and 18. More importantly, it didn't have TPS. It didn't have protective bubbles around players. All it needed was minor tweaks, such as:

    - Stick lifts were way too OP and spammable. Needed to be toned down.

    - Poke checks needed to be a little more forgiving. Kind of like now, so good job there.

    - Nudges from behind creating stumbles need a minor tweak. AI is too powerful on nudges from behind, and btw they still are. Now hitting is nerfed at slow speeds or within close quarters. At low speeds a Dangler can shrug off Enforcers..... Gimme a break.

    - 360 spins were too OP (it has been tuned now btw, good job on that).

    Off the top of my head, pretty much all it needed. Of course, now it got patched and became a dumpster fire trying to imitate TPS. Now, it is simply danglers running everywhere like headless chickens because hitting has become practically useless. It has become extremely hard to check someone with the same class as your player. You can pretty much hit anything smaller than your class, provided you can catch them. So basically your danglers have replaced those 5 foot 8 builds that people loved to run in NHL 14. Yay! Good times......

    You make valid points, but I still feel that players generally favor the beta because the skill gap was far less.

    As the game's users become more familiar - skill gap closes and people begin facing tougher competition, making all of the things you've mentioned become far more pronounced - especially in times when those mechanics don't work to your favor.

    When they didn't work to your favor in the beta, it was "that's new and neat - feels different and more realistic'


    But, when you're tasked with accomplishing the same mechanics in a far more and increasingly competitive setting - they are 'clunky', 'OP'(if executed efficiently by your opponent), and 'broken'.

    This theory completely dismisses the fact that people complaining of the gameplay are benefiting from it in the same way as other people just as it suggests that a month ago we were all equal.

    "Skill gap" theory doesn't make sense.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »

    In that time, players have adapted to the game and are better at using the stick mechanics and skating and players have moved up the ranks to play better and better competition. That in a lot of cases has a bigger impact on players perception of how the game plays than any of the changes in the tuner that are dialing things in.

    I hope this comment doesn't get lost in the shuffle. It's the main reason why we hear a lot of 'beta was better' on the forums, reddit, etc.

    The beta was 'better' because you faced competition still learning how to master the game.

    After a couple of months, you end up playing against people who've gotten VERY good at the mechanics.. and then you start to hear 'beta was better!'



    Uh, what? No. Absolutely no.

    The beta was better because skating was better, hitting was better, stick lifts worked (too well I may add), you couldn't rag the puck and had to cycle it around. Actually made this game look and play like hockey for once.

    We felt we had control. Skating was explosive and crisp. We felt we had predictable outcomes within a given situation. Most of all, it was fun because it was fresh and different. Every position could make a difference and playing them felt rewarding. Defense mattered. Goalies could make a difference and the better ones stood out.

    Now? It is basically back to NHL 18 without being able to spam poke checks and stick lifts are pretty much completely ruined.

    The beta was better because simply put, it was better. It didn't feel clunky like 15, 16, 17 and 18. More importantly, it didn't have TPS. It didn't have protective bubbles around players. All it needed was minor tweaks, such as:

    - Stick lifts were way too OP and spammable. Needed to be toned down.

    - Poke checks needed to be a little more forgiving. Kind of like now, so good job there.

    - Nudges from behind creating stumbles need a minor tweak. AI is too powerful on nudges from behind, and btw they still are. Now hitting is nerfed at slow speeds or within close quarters. At low speeds a Dangler can shrug off Enforcers..... Gimme a break.

    - 360 spins were too OP (it has been tuned now btw, good job on that).

    Off the top of my head, pretty much all it needed. Of course, now it got patched and became a dumpster fire trying to imitate TPS. Now, it is simply danglers running everywhere like headless chickens because hitting has become practically useless. It has become extremely hard to check someone with the same class as your player. You can pretty much hit anything smaller than your class, provided you can catch them. So basically your danglers have replaced those 5 foot 8 builds that people loved to run in NHL 14. Yay! Good times......

    You make valid points, but I still feel that players generally favor the beta because the skill gap was far less.

    As the game's users become more familiar - skill gap closes and people begin facing tougher competition, making all of the things you've mentioned become far more pronounced - especially in times when those mechanics don't work to your favor.

    When they didn't work to your favor in the beta, it was "that's new and neat - feels different and more realistic'


    But, when you're tasked with accomplishing the same mechanics in a far more and increasingly competitive setting - they are 'clunky', 'OP'(if executed efficiently by your opponent), and 'broken'.

    There is logic to what you are saying, and I get it. However, I cannot really agree.

    I mean, 17 and 18 beta we did not have this at all. Those who knew the usual tactics could clearly see them and of course, the usual cheese worked.

    In 19, I saw those same tactics. They simply didn't work, at least, not anywhere near as well as 17 and 18. Players trying to wiggle in the corners were getting destroyed, or at the very least, were losing puck possession. Anyone who had a clue how to play D was successful for the most part. It forced players to move the puck around to generate space. It was actually hard to find time and space. Back skating would get you destroyed in the beta. 2 tuners later? It is OP.....

    Release day was a little different, maybe due to servers or whatever. Players were trying to wiggle around in the corner with the same tactics since, what, NHL 10? They failed for the most part. Again, D mattered.

    Fast forward to 2 tuners, all the wigglers have success for the most part. Same play, same D (with a few less tools, mostly stick lifts) and what do we have? Success for the wigglers.

    Far as I know there aren't a ton of horrible players who look forward to playing the beta. The ones who consistently buy, play, and sign up for the beta are the same ones every year, more or less. To say the talent pool is incredibly smaller in the beta, while possible, is highly unlikely to me.

    Body checking pretty much only works with momentum. Actually boarders on charging and it should be, imo. When you try for a low speed hit, you clearly see your player initiate the hit, but the puck carrier simply does not react and not even in the slightest way. What happened to the promised "if we hit just a shoulder, we will now see players react to it" ? In fact, hitting at low speeds has become so incredibly bad and worthless that we are seeing the Dangler class being used like never before.

    Furthermore, during the beta, nothing, and I mean nothing felt like NHL 18. Now? Every single game feels exactly like NHL 18. This has nothing to do with players who all of a sudden have, every single one of them, caught onto the game mechanics within the same time frame. It is tuning my friend. Nothing but tuning to absolutely favor forwards just like this game has done for 10+ years.

    Last but not least, I have played this game for many years. Every single year, beta or release, the game always felt the same, always played the same. Except the NHL 16 debacle where players would bobble almost every pass reception. Again, they all felt the same.

    19 actually felt different. It looked different. It played different. I was like, "OMG, they finally listened. They finally made a game where every position matters. Everyone has fun and plays their position".

    Now 19 gives me the exact same disgusted feeling that 14-18 gave me, and still do. This is not because the better players crept out 2 months after the beta. It is the tuning and the mentality behind the making of this game.

    Oh, and btw, I remember 0 complaints during the beta and first week of release about puck pickups. Almost everyone agreed how so much better they were. Funny story, those complaints are creeping right back as of the last tuner. Nothing to do with skill gap.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!