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And just like that...the optimism faded

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  • OvenMitts91
    64 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Again - skating and responsiveness has nothing to do with your opponent. You seem to be implying that by playing better competition people are all of a sudden getting shaky fingers and having anxiety attacks mid game which is causing their skater to feel more clunky. I’d even make the argument that the beta was more competitive - it’s largely populated by die hards who will buy the game every year no matter what.

    And again, the mechanics didn’t materially change all that much from 18-19 aside from being able to actually move during the beta. Hockey is still hockey, the button layout is the same, and hockey IQ doesn’t magically go from non-existent/average to elite after a month of playing a slightly different game relative to last year that is largely cut and paste. If there are people that go from average to elite in a one month window they are massive outliers and wouldn’t materially change how the player universe is constructed overall. The pool of competitive/high end players is basically the same now vs the beta, and most of the top players have been playing the NHL series for years. Competition is largely a controlled variable here so that argument has no merit whatsoever.
  • I actually had fun winning and losing on the beta. When our team lost in the beta, I felt it was completely deserved. When we won, I felt it was completely deserved.

    But most of all, I loved watching puck taggers get absolutely destroyed. Faced an elite lg NHL team and they got absolutely smoked by a team that was meh because they didn't pass.

    Then we played an AHL team that had good passing, our team was completely average (sadly just low iq) and we got worked. It was great though, watching a team that should have destroyed a low level team even though I was a member of it.

    Good teamwork resulted in getting to good areas and they scored in those good areas. The way the game should have played out.

    They didn't skate into us, they played patient and they utilized high iq plays and timing.

    I enjoyed playing knowing I didn't have a chance, but at least my teammates were going to learn something from getting owned by a smarter team.
  • Again - skating and responsiveness has nothing to do with your opponent. You seem to be implying that by playing better competition people are all of a sudden getting shaky fingers and having anxiety attacks mid game which is causing their skater to feel more clunky. I’d even make the argument that the beta was more competitive - it’s largely populated by die hards who will buy the game every year no matter what.

    And again, the mechanics didn’t materially change all that much from 18-19 aside from being able to actually move during the beta. Hockey is still hockey, the button layout is the same, and hockey IQ doesn’t magically go from non-existent/average to elite after a month of playing a slightly different game relative to last year that is largely cut and paste. If there are people that go from average to elite in a one month window they are massive outliers and wouldn’t materially change how competitive the player universe is constructed overall. The pool of competitive/high end players is basically the same now vs the beta, and most of the top players have been playing the NHL series for years. Competition is largely a controlled variable here so that argument has no merit whatsoever.

    Completely agree. In the beta, my player would turn and react when and how I wanted. It was fun and responsive, even as a DD.

    Now, somewhere between 18 and the 19 beta. Starting to see weird pivots, and sluggish ones. Player seems like he is tired and heavier. I dunno. This whole tuning to better differentiate classes is not working for me. Why would I use DD or en Enforcer now? They skate like beer league heroes while smaller classes skater like AHLers.
  • I actually had fun winning and losing on the beta. When our team lost in the beta, I felt it was completely deserved. When we won, I felt it was completely deserved.

    But most of all, I loved watching puck taggers get absolutely destroyed. Faced an elite lg NHL team and they got absolutely smoked by a team that was meh because they didn't pass.

    Then we played an AHL team that had good passing, our team was completely average (sadly just low iq) and we got worked. It was great though, watching a team that should have destroyed a low level team even though I was a member of it.

    Good teamwork resulted in getting to good areas and they scored in those good areas. The way the game should have played out.

    They didn't skate into us, they played patient and they utilized high iq plays and timing.

    I enjoyed playing knowing I didn't have a chance, but at least my teammates were going to learn something from getting owned by a smarter team.

    I agree. When you went after a puck carrier, you could tell by their reaction on the screen. They were thinking "crap, someone is coming after me". Now? Pfft, you can see them remain super clam, and just curl the stick back, expose their back to you, and shrug off the hit. It is literally like night and day. It has brought back the puck hogging gameplay and mentality.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63276046

    Penalty. 2 minutes for slashing. Replay shows I got stick. I guess it's my "skill gap"...

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63203199

    Goal. I poked directly at the puck but for some reason it automatically vears away from the puck allowing it to go through for a one-t goal from behind the net. That's my "skill gap" also...

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63276325

    Last night during our LG game. Our Right D-man skates back towards the blue line while receiving the puck off the face-off. He wants to move to the right, but instead of his player shifting his weight and moving in that direction, he spins around and brings the puck over the line. Offsides. He wasn't rolling the thumstick. He was simply holding right. I guess his "skill gap" sucks too...



    This is a highlight of my stream yesterday. It's about 20 minutes long, so strap in, but I go into detail on every shot, counting those that were just "shots" vs. those that were actually scoring chances. The end result of the game has nothing to do with skill gap. It has to do with the game having too many random occurrences at the worst possible times. Parental Caution is Advised: there are some naughty words in that clip. It's not me directing it at anyone in particular, it's just me being exasperated at the game. If you're the type who's easily offended, I apologize in advance. But if you can look past the tone of what is being said and actually pay attention to the details, you'll see why this game went from one of my most anticipated and potentially beloved game in my current library to a game I'm contemplating deleting forever from my xbox and retiring from LG (I don't give 2 damns about being "banned" for 2 seasons).
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    Again - skating and responsiveness has nothing to do with your opponent. You seem to be implying that by playing better competition people are all of a sudden getting shaky fingers and having anxiety attacks mid game which is causing their skater to feel more clunky. I’d even make the argument that the beta was more competitive - it’s largely populated by die hards who will buy the game every year no matter what.

    And again, the mechanics didn’t materially change all that much from 18-19 aside from being able to actually move during the beta. Hockey is still hockey, the button layout is the same, and hockey IQ doesn’t magically go from non-existent/average to elite after a month of playing a slightly different game relative to last year that is largely cut and paste. If there are people that go from average to elite in a one month window they are massive outliers and wouldn’t materially change how the player universe is constructed overall. The pool of competitive/high end players is basically the same now vs the beta, and most of the top players have been playing the NHL series for years. Competition is largely a controlled variable here so that argument has no merit whatsoever.

    That isn't really what I am implying. The better your competition though, the more clogged things get and the less free you can play. There is more puck loss, and plays are grinded out as opposed to free flowing quick breakouts where speed isn't hindered. And that is where skill gap really comes into play.

    You are right that the game is still an EA Hockey product so it isn't night and day different if you look at it that way but there wouldn't be so many threads about different mechanics and how slight tuning can change things drastically if they didn't make a difference. NHL 18 to 19 was a big difference with quite a few core mechanics changes that people were getting used to in the Beta. People always want to win but the level of that in the Beta vs what it would be today is vastly different. People aren't logging on as much now to just get immersed in the new hockey product and try things out as much as they are chasing leaderboard rank. This also leads to people getting stuck in routines chasing things they think will lead to their highest chance of success which makes games a bit more stale at times to play for you and your opponents and that frustration can ramp up a lot relative to what mindset people are in at the beginning of a Beta. I even find I run into that myself so can definitely see why people can think the game got slower or that a tuner changed something that wasn't actually changed. It is human nature to recognize these patterns or changes we think we feel and try to attribute them to something you know changed. There is a big human factor outside the game itself that contributes to these things both psychologically and what people are doing with their thumbs on any given day.

    I am not saying that is all it is but it can be a big factor that people aren't considering at least.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63276046

    Penalty. 2 minutes for slashing. Replay shows I got stick. I guess it's my "skill gap"...

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63203199

    Goal. I poked directly at the puck but for some reason it automatically vears away from the puck allowing it to go through for a one-t goal from behind the net. That's my "skill gap" also...

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63276325

    Last night during our LG game. Our Right D-man skates back towards the blue line while receiving the puck off the face-off. He wants to move to the right, but instead of his player shifting his weight and moving in that direction, he spins around and brings the puck over the line. Offsides. He wasn't rolling the thumstick. He was simply holding right. I guess his "skill gap" sucks too...



    This is a highlight of my stream yesterday. It's about 20 minutes long, so strap in, but I go into detail on every shot, counting those that were just "shots" vs. those that were actually scoring chances. The end result of the game has nothing to do with skill gap. It has to do with the game having too many random occurrences at the worst possible times. Parental Caution is Advised: there are some naughty words in that clip. It's not me directing it at anyone in particular, it's just me being exasperated at the game. If you're the type who's easily offended, I apologize in advance. But if you can look past the tone of what is being said and actually pay attention to the details, you'll see why this game went from one of my most anticipated and potentially beloved game in my current library to a game I'm contemplating deleting forever from my xbox and retiring from LG (I don't give 2 damns about being "banned" for 2 seasons).

    I watched your rant video, completely on it. I even thought maybe a couple of your "scoring chances" weren't ones I'd consider one myself, but I also thought the no look one-t to top shelf that got stopped easily was one of them as well.

    I'm also not asking for every scoring chance to be a goal, but maybe half of those great saves should allow a goal. Your goal obviously should not have went in. A defender should allow that shot and keep his stick out of the way. There's no threat.

    Also, that poke check one has happened to me too. My guy will move his stick away from the puck on the poke check which would have disrupted the pass. It's annoying.

    But yeah, skill gap for sure. Obviously a skilled person with all the knowledge for the game would have prevented that slapshot from going in.
  • LeFury_27
    203 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    Great to see cheese goals are back.

    Goals going in that no NHL Goalie would ever let in. Are you forgetting that NHL goalies are some of the greatest athletes in the world?

    On release before these tuners that ruined the game you would see 1200+ in online versus on ps4, now 500...

    Beta tuner was so much better, and the numbers speak for themselves.
  • @VeNOM2099

    The types of goals from your twitch video happen far too often. This one happened against my team last night in EASHL.



    No screen, no puck movement. The goalie is set and waiting for the shot and basically moves out of the way when the puck gets to him. It would be one thing if it was a perfect shot but there's no reason for that shot to ever go in from there.

    When these types of goals go in it doesn't feel like a "skill gap" it just feels like random luck deciding the game.

    And then there's sequences like this



    The opponent's goalie makes a solid save on a good scoring chance and on the rush the other way my partner plays the two-on-one solidly, knocking the puck off the other guy's stick twice only for the loose puck to bounce to the other team and get swept in though the goalie's pad.

    "Skill gap"


  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Again - skating and responsiveness has nothing to do with your opponent. You seem to be implying that by playing better competition people are all of a sudden getting shaky fingers and having anxiety attacks mid game which is causing their skater to feel more clunky. I’d even make the argument that the beta was more competitive - it’s largely populated by die hards who will buy the game every year no matter what.

    And again, the mechanics didn’t materially change all that much from 18-19 aside from being able to actually move during the beta. Hockey is still hockey, the button layout is the same, and hockey IQ doesn’t magically go from non-existent/average to elite after a month of playing a slightly different game relative to last year that is largely cut and paste. If there are people that go from average to elite in a one month window they are massive outliers and wouldn’t materially change how the player universe is constructed overall. The pool of competitive/high end players is basically the same now vs the beta, and most of the top players have been playing the NHL series for years. Competition is largely a controlled variable here so that argument has no merit whatsoever.

    That isn't really what I am implying. The better your competition though, the more clogged things get and the less free you can play. There is more puck loss, and plays are grinded out as opposed to free flowing quick breakouts where speed isn't hindered. And that is where skill gap really comes into play.

    You are right that the game is still an EA Hockey product so it isn't night and day different if you look at it that way but there wouldn't be so many threads about different mechanics and how slight tuning can change things drastically if they didn't make a difference. NHL 18 to 19 was a big difference with quite a few core mechanics changes that people were getting used to in the Beta. People always want to win but the level of that in the Beta vs what it would be today is vastly different. People aren't logging on as much now to just get immersed in the new hockey product and try things out as much as they are chasing leaderboard rank. This also leads to people getting stuck in routines chasing things they think will lead to their highest chance of success which makes games a bit more stale at times to play for you and your opponents and that frustration can ramp up a lot relative to what mindset people are in at the beginning of a Beta. I even find I run into that myself so can definitely see why people can think the game got slower or that a tuner changed something that wasn't actually changed. It is human nature to recognize these patterns or changes we think we feel and try to attribute them to something you know changed. There is a big human factor outside the game itself that contributes to these things both psychologically and what people are doing with their thumbs on any given day.

    I am not saying that is all it is but it can be a big factor that people aren't considering at least.

    This makes sense, I'll admit. But it does not change the fact that this game has reverted as much as possible to NHL 18. I see it, I feel it. Reason why is I feel exactly the same way 18 made me feel. It wasn't like that 3 weeks ago.

    Puck ragging was rare, now it is all we see. Selfish players are back, and that is due to you guys reverting back with your tuners.

    You can explain it all you want Ben, and I appreciate that you do. I am grateful that we even get a chance to interact with an actual producer and not some (no offense here) low lever programmer. However, the reality of it is, you took this great promise, new skating and all, and in the end, I feel like I am playing the same game I have been for years. It is a shame that I feel that way when a short awhile ago, I simply didn't. Maybe in the end, this game just isn't for me. I am not part of the majority that enjoy it it would seem.
  • OvenMitts91
    64 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Again - skating and responsiveness has nothing to do with your opponent. You seem to be implying that by playing better competition people are all of a sudden getting shaky fingers and having anxiety attacks mid game which is causing their skater to feel more clunky. I’d even make the argument that the beta was more competitive - it’s largely populated by die hards who will buy the game every year no matter what.

    And again, the mechanics didn’t materially change all that much from 18-19 aside from being able to actually move during the beta. Hockey is still hockey, the button layout is the same, and hockey IQ doesn’t magically go from non-existent/average to elite after a month of playing a slightly different game relative to last year that is largely cut and paste. If there are people that go from average to elite in a one month window they are massive outliers and wouldn’t materially change how the player universe is constructed overall. The pool of competitive/high end players is basically the same now vs the beta, and most of the top players have been playing the NHL series for years. Competition is largely a controlled variable here so that argument has no merit whatsoever.

    That isn't really what I am implying. The better your competition though, the more clogged things get and the less free you can play. There is more puck loss, and plays are grinded out as opposed to free flowing quick breakouts where speed isn't hindered. And that is where skill gap really comes into play.

    You are right that the game is still an EA Hockey product so it isn't night and day different if you look at it that way but there wouldn't be so many threads about different mechanics and how slight tuning can change things drastically if they didn't make a difference. NHL 18 to 19 was a big difference with quite a few core mechanics changes that people were getting used to in the Beta. People always want to win but the level of that in the Beta vs what it would be today is vastly different. People aren't logging on as much now to just get immersed in the new hockey product and try things out as much as they are chasing leaderboard rank. This also leads to people getting stuck in routines chasing things they think will lead to their highest chance of success which makes games a bit more stale at times to play for you and your opponents and that frustration can ramp up a lot relative to what mindset people are in at the beginning of a Beta. I even find I run into that myself so can definitely see why people can think the game got slower or that a tuner changed something that wasn't actually changed. It is human nature to recognize these patterns or changes we think we feel and try to attribute them to something you know changed. There is a big human factor outside the game itself that contributes to these things both psychologically and what people are doing with their thumbs on any given day.

    I am not saying that is all it is but it can be a big factor that people aren't considering at least.

    I get what you are saying and appreciate you coming on here to chat through with us. That said- I think we’re talking about two different issues. Creating space and open ice vs what you can do once you’re in open ice.

    During the beta and current state I don’t/didn’t have any issues creating space or open ice for myself. There are certain players that lock down a bit better on defense but that is a separate issue from...

    ...once I’m in space my player is way less mobile and the options/creativity (and therefore fun) are limited. In the beta the skating afforded better players more options and creativity to play offense. Now my players can’t skate so I’m better served zipping the puck around and setting up a one timer, twirling in the corner waiting for a one timer, or taking a cheese cross grain wrist shot. This is contrary to me wanting to try cool stuff/plays with the puck during the beta because the skating engine (finally!) supported advanced playmaking and creativity again. Again, nothing to do with competition, just the fact that the game now (again) rewards cheese and repetitive boring tactics, whereas during the beta the skating let us be way more dynamic and inventive on offense.
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63276046

    Penalty. 2 minutes for slashing. Replay shows I got stick. I guess it's my "skill gap"...

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63203199

    Goal. I poked directly at the puck but for some reason it automatically vears away from the puck allowing it to go through for a one-t goal from behind the net. That's my "skill gap" also...

    https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/venom3o99/video/63276325

    Last night during our LG game. Our Right D-man skates back towards the blue line while receiving the puck off the face-off. He wants to move to the right, but instead of his player shifting his weight and moving in that direction, he spins around and brings the puck over the line. Offsides. He wasn't rolling the thumstick. He was simply holding right. I guess his "skill gap" sucks too...



    This is a highlight of my stream yesterday. It's about 20 minutes long, so strap in, but I go into detail on every shot, counting those that were just "shots" vs. those that were actually scoring chances. The end result of the game has nothing to do with skill gap. It has to do with the game having too many random occurrences at the worst possible times. Parental Caution is Advised: there are some naughty words in that clip. It's not me directing it at anyone in particular, it's just me being exasperated at the game. If you're the type who's easily offended, I apologize in advance. But if you can look past the tone of what is being said and actually pay attention to the details, you'll see why this game went from one of my most anticipated and potentially beloved game in my current library to a game I'm contemplating deleting forever from my xbox and retiring from LG (I don't give 2 damns about being "banned" for 2 seasons).

    This is excellent. It is so much better to see video than what people say as it puts it all into perspective. As I have said to you before when watching your streams, you always have quite a bit of bias when you play. Even before the replay analysis of your own shots, it is proven by those final minutes of the period where you are essentially saying "oh here it is, he is going to score" yet all of the plays turned out as expected. You were right that you got lucky with your goal though as it handcuffed the goalie and he could have picked a much more reliable save but I will address that below as it is something we can improve in the future.

    Here are some specific things to address some of your callouts:

    - The slashing call is probably that we are looking at stick contact on the frame you start to blend into the action and the game probably recognized some slight stick on glove or leg contact contact before you went into the full lift action. It is something we can look into to make sure we don't consider the blend in frames as part of detecting the slash. Since we tuned up the detection of slashing after launch, it is probably something that wasn't as obvious before.

    - For the pokecheck, you were trying to poke the possessed puck and not the pass. We no longer update the puck location when it changes it's destination after you initiate the poke. This means your player will continue to poke towards where the puck was going when you first pressed it. The relative speed change on the pass is higher too. It looks like a near miss in replay but that wouldn't be an easy correction anyways for a player that wasn't anticipating hitting the pass and was thinking of poking the puck off the stick. If you waited for the pass to be released before poking, as long as the relative speed wasn't too high relative to your players ability from their stick checking rating, it would have possibly got that puck.

    - During your analysis for the game and your scoring chances, it was quite eye opening. The best chances were probably the one timers but it was interesting how they were often cross body and sometimes as the player was moving away from the net. Those are going to yield less power and in some cases less accuracy as well which gives the goalie more time to get over and also just have the puck hit him when he is trying to take away the bottom of the net before reacting to the actual puck. I wouldn't expect those to score. Some of the shots were against the grain and the goalie had to fight them off. He was even late on them in some cases but still got a piece of them because they were close enough to his body and even being late he could get that piece. The goal you scored, you are correct that it is a weak goal. It handcuffed him but to me it looks like our save volume for that save is just too wide. He is meant to use that save if the puck is more interior to that shoulder/up near the collar bone. I have flagged that save to look at since the puck was delivered further out and he doesn't have x/y error on unscreened shots anymore so it isn't error that is causing that in this case and probably just that the save volume makes the goalie think that save would be adequate for that puck location when he needs to react quickly. Thanks for showing it.
  • LeFury_27
    203 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    I agree with OvenMitts91 100%.

    I don't understand why the change to the skating, that was the whole selling point of NHL 19.

    The game has changed so much it feels like NHL 18.1.

    I also start to wonder why those "elite players" want goalies dumbed down like NHL 18. Is it because they know every cheese goal that exists and they are the only goals they attempt to score?
    Beta tuner removed cheese goals for the first time and now they are back in the game.

    This is the last time I will ever buy an NHL game. Sell players the game on skating then revert to the previous game and bring back cheese goals. Way to go eh? Hard to believe full release is somehow worse than beta. :/
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    @VeNOM2099

    The types of goals from your twitch video happen far too often. This one happened against my team last night in EASHL.

    No screen, no puck movement. The goalie is set and waiting for the shot and basically moves out of the way when the puck gets to him. It would be one thing if it was a perfect shot but there's no reason for that shot to ever go in from there.

    When these types of goals go in it doesn't feel like a "skill gap" it just feels like random luck deciding the game.

    And then there's sequences like this

    The opponent's goalie makes a solid save on a good scoring chance and on the rush the other way my partner plays the two-on-one solidly, knocking the puck off the other guy's stick twice only for the loose puck to bounce to the other team and get swept in though the goalie's pad.

    "Skill gap"


    Thanks for posting these. The first one the goalie was just late and we could definitely make EASHL ai goalies better but its a fine line. We could also tighten in the space that the goalie feels confident making that particular tight body save so that pucks near the edge he is more likely to try and use his glove but with the tuning/goalie attributes in that case, he would still be late regardless of the save chosen as that calculation is the same but maybe he would get a piece of it with his glove and it would at least look better. But we see goalies try to get their body over all the time and just arrive slightly late so I wouldn't argue that it isn't realistic. The biggest subjective piece here is should he ever be that late on a shot at the speed from that distance. If we bring down the max delay he can have though, that impacts goalies across the board and would mean you would see less goals from good scoring areas as well -- maybe that's a good thing -- but again, its a very fine line when we are talking the goalie being late in this case by one frame. A couple mph slower shot and/or taken from a couple feet further out and he makes the save.

    The second one is the real weak one. I have seen a couple cases where with a loose puck that is close to him, he doesn't drop ahead of time so is more vulnerable if the puck gets to him quickly. If we had him recognize that threat more often on the loose puck and just go down early, it would prevent that goal. I think some of the tuning was around him dropping too early on other loose pucks and making him vulnerable in other ways but I would prefer to have him stop the shot you posted.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Thanks for posting these. The first one the goalie was just late and we could definitely make EASHL ai goalies better but its a fine line. We could also tighten in the space that the goalie feels confident making that particular tight body save so that pucks near the edge he is more likely to try and use his glove but with the tuning/goalie attributes in that case, he would still be late regardless of the save chosen as that calculation is the same but maybe he would get a piece of it with his glove and it would at least look better. But we see goalies try to get their body over all the time and just arrive slightly late so I wouldn't argue that it isn't realistic. The biggest subjective piece here is should he ever be that late on a shot at the speed from that distance. If we bring down the max delay he can have though, that impacts goalies across the board and would mean you would see less goals from good scoring areas as well -- maybe that's a good thing -- but again, its a very fine line when we are talking the goalie being late in this case by one frame. A couple mph slower shot and/or taken from a couple feet further out and he makes the save.

    As always your responses are very appreciated. I guess I just don't see this play the same way you do.

    IMO, that's a terrible goal. An unscreened shot from well above the circle on a goalie that's set and waiting. The shooter didn't pick a corner or go bar-down. He shot it about six inches inside the post and about the same below the crossbar.

    That's a shot I should be fine giving up. I should hope my opponents take that shot all day long, because the goalie should have no trouble making that save. Instead he made himself as small as possible and let the puck go by as a result.

  • Just out of curiosity.......

    I think it has become painfully clear that 19, and I am guessing almost every year after that, the game will resemble 18. I mean, it has been that way since 14, and 19 has morphed into 18.

    Which lead me to this question:

    Why are there Gamechangers? What differences do they bring? I would like to think that they are more than just a marketing ploy to make us think we actually do have a voice, but sadly, I see no significant changes, other than CHEL and 900 dressup items.
  • The whole reason NHL 19 had so much optimism is because of the NHL 19 beta. The way it felt, the smoothness to the skating, no more cheese goals. Fast, dynamic hockey. The skating was the whole reason everyone was so excited about NHL 19.

    The whole feel of NHL 19 was different, and now 3 tuners later you've managed to revert to NHL 18, to a game that wasn't that great. NHL 19 was so much different and unique than all the previous games. So now you have managed to bring back a stale boring game of hockey.

    It's upsetting and frustrating, because this game had so much going for it and so much hype. Now for some reason you decided to break what wasn't broken. (Besides stick lifts).
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    The whole reason NHL 19 had so much optimism is because of the NHL 19 beta. The way it felt, the smoothness to the skating, no more cheese goals. Fast, dynamic hockey. The skating was the whole reason everyone was so excited about NHL 19.

    The whole feel of NHL 19 was different, and now 3 tuners later you've managed to revert to NHL 18, to a game that wasn't that great. NHL 19 was so much different and unique than all the previous games. So now you have managed to bring back a stale boring game of hockey.

    It's upsetting and frustrating, because this game had so much going for it and so much hype. Now for some reason you decided to break what wasn't broken. (Besides stick lifts).

    And why don't you go back to it? Hey if all of what you're saying is correct and it's all in our heads, then by all means we will eat our words.

    Go back to the beta format, change it so it has the poke checks there are now, stick lifts now and let us evaluate.

    It's literally the only move you SHOULD make. You see everybody agreeing with these type of posts? It's for good reason. They're the most liked posts on the forum. I don't know why you'd even take so long after reading the abundance of them to just go make the change.

    Go do it now. We might like your game again.
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    As always your responses are very appreciated. I guess I just don't see this play the same way you do.

    IMO, that's a terrible goal. An unscreened shot from well above the circle on a goalie that's set and waiting. The shooter didn't pick a corner or go bar-down. He shot it about six inches inside the post and about the same below the crossbar.

    That's a shot I should be fine giving up. I should hope my opponents take that shot all day long, because the goalie should have no trouble making that save. Instead he made himself as small as possible and let the puck go by as a result.

    I don't disagree. That is why I went into detail about what could be improved and the corresponding things we need to think about. I don't think anything that I wrote should imply that I think it is a good goal. It is just a product of the current tuning which could be updated but would also have other impacts on things.

    Do you feel you are seeing that goal go in often?

    In a quick test with 2 on 1 rushes in practice mode I took 25 similar shots just now and didn't score. I then took a few others from slightly closer (near top of the circle or closer) and went 1 for 10. One of the misses I took with Boeser from closer in at the top of the circles, the goalie was just late on it but it hit crossbar and went out of play. I would expect that shot to still be able to beat the goalie but the accuracy of the shot will have an impact as well. The shot that went in actually beat the goalie under the arm pit going off the inside of his blocker before squeaking in as he was just a bit late sealing that gap.

    So if you are seeing it at a higher rate, it could be that it is players with high slapshot power in EASHL vs the EASHL ai goalies attributes that is making the difference.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    @NHLDev

    Thanks for answering. I'll try to be brief.
    This is excellent. It is so much better to see video than what people say as it puts it all into perspective. As I have said to you before when watching your streams, you always have quite a bit of bias when you play. Even before the replay analysis of your own shots, it is proven by those final minutes of the period where you are essentially saying "oh here it is, he is going to score" yet all of the plays turned out as expected. You were right that you got lucky with your goal though as it handcuffed the goalie and he could have picked a much more reliable save but I will address that below as it is something we can improve in the future.

    It's not "bias". If I walked down a certain street, and nearly every time I pass in front of it someone throws a rock at me. The next time I pass by that house I'm gonna be expecting anther rock to be thrown at me. That's not bias, that's just simple deduction through experience. This game has taught me that certain things lead to a certain expected outcome. So when I said "oh, here it comes!" it was more just me stealing myself against the inevitable in order to foil that outcome.


    - The slashing call is probably that we are looking at stick contact on the frame you start to blend into the action and the game probably recognized some slight stick on glove or leg contact contact before you went into the full lift action. It is something we can look into to make sure we don't consider the blend in frames as part of detecting the slash. Since we tuned up the detection of slashing after launch, it is probably something that wasn't as obvious before.

    I had many more of them. But my allotted space was getting rather full of clips. The issue (for me anyways) isn't so much that stick lifting cause more penalties (they should) but that the skating is mostly of the "weaving back and forth" variety which leads to many unnecessary calls. We've had this talk before, about lateral acceleration being one of the highest cause for gameplay issues from users. This is one more of them to add to the pile. Perhaps it's finally time to lower it in the next tuner and see how that affects gameplay?
    - For the pokecheck, you were trying to poke the possessed puck and not the pass. We no longer update the puck location when it changes it's destination after you initiate the poke. This means your player will continue to poke towards where the puck was going when you first pressed it. The relative speed change on the pass is higher too. It looks like a near miss in replay but that wouldn't be an easy correction anyways for a player that wasn't anticipating hitting the pass and was thinking of poking the puck off the stick. If you waited for the pass to be released before poking, as long as the relative speed wasn't too high relative to your players ability from their stick checking rating, it would have possibly got that puck.

    It wasn't poke check, it was a DSS attempt. I was actually just trying to hold out my stick in one direction (the puck's) and hope it was at least going to disrupt the pass attempt. What I wasn't expecting was for the stick to veer away like that. I didn't sweep the stick. Nor did I change my skater's direction as I was homing in on the player with the puck. To tell you the truth when I saw it happen live, I was thinking that the stick phased through the ice and I was going to be a lot more LIVID than I was. LOL!
    - During your analysis for the game and your scoring chances, it was quite eye opening. The best chances were probably the one timers but it was interesting how they were often cross body and sometimes as the player was moving away from the net. Those are going to yield less power and in some cases less accuracy as well which gives the goalie more time to get over and also just have the puck hit him when he is trying to take away the bottom of the net before reacting to the actual puck. I wouldn't expect those to score. Some of the shots were against the grain and the goalie had to fight them off. He was even late on them in some cases but still got a piece of them because they were close enough to his body and even being late he could get that piece. The goal you scored, you are correct that it is a weak goal. It handcuffed him but to me it looks like our save volume for that save is just too wide. He is meant to use that save if the puck is more interior to that shoulder/up near the collar bone. I have flagged that save to look at since the puck was delivered further out and he doesn't have x/y error on unscreened shots anymore so it isn't error that is causing that in this case and probably just that the save volume makes the goalie think that save would be adequate for that puck location when he needs to react quickly. Thanks for showing it.

    As I said during the highlight; I wasn't expecting every scoring chance to be a goal. Sometimes the goalie CAN make a save on even the best shot or setup. I'm ok with that. My issue came with the fact that a simple shot from very far away, goalie unscreened, has almost just as much of a chance of beating the goalie than one of those scoring chances. It turns the game from something requiring knowledge and skill to absolute chaos where every player just b-lines it directly to the puck handler, mashing poke check, stick lift, big hit, whatever works to usurp the puck because GOD FORGIVE if you give your opponent a chance to shoot on the net! The user shouldn't be praying that every little shot directed at their goalie might be a goal.

    That's what creates so much animosity from the user base. Hockey is simply a sport where you try to limit the chances to score and you funnel the play to allow your goalie to stop the easy shots. This game is more about limiting ANY type of shot good or bad. There are thousands of players better than me, but they all experience the same thing, the same amount of stress in their game against random opponents because anything WILL happen. And it doesn't matter that they're more skilled, or they know all the best ways to score, or they have the best players on their team.

    I don't want to win all my games. I just want to play HOCKEY. Something I could do early on in the game's life. Now even playing against someone like my opponent in that highlight, an average player with little hockey knowledge or skill at the game. It's a nerve wracking experience. It's an unsatisfying experience because I couldn't play hockey. I just did whatever and I won.
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