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And just like that...the optimism faded

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  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    If you played 1.0 tuner and 1.03 you would realize that they both feel like different games.

    1.0 Feels Fast, smooth and like a whole new NHL game.

    1.03 Has a lot of sluggishness in the skating and feels exactly like NHL 18 with new skating.'

    Anyone who disputes this is obviously lying, it doesn't even feel like the same game lmao.

    The changes we made to skating were during the Beta and are in the 1.0 tuner. We haven't tuned skating since then in any of the tuners. If you are currently rolling back to 1.0 with the current game, it means you are playing with all of the patches applied still and therefore the only differences are the tuner changes.

    When you play offline, what Game Preset are you on and what is game style set to?

    Which tuner did you modify agility to better reflect attributes?

    The tuner we put out during the Beta. Which carried over as 1.00

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    If you played 1.0 tuner and 1.03 you would realize that they both feel like different games.

    1.0 Feels Fast, smooth and like a whole new NHL game.

    1.03 Has a lot of sluggishness in the skating and feels exactly like NHL 18 with new skating.'

    Anyone who disputes this is obviously lying, it doesn't even feel like the same game lmao.

    The changes we made to skating were during the Beta and are in the 1.0 tuner. We haven't tuned skating since then in any of the tuners. If you are currently rolling back to 1.0 with the current game, it means you are playing with all of the patches applied still and therefore the only differences are the tuner changes.

    When you play offline, what Game Preset are you on and what is game style set to?

    Was release week with, or without, the tweak to agility?
    All Comments pertain to 6v6 drop in unless otherwise stated..
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    Was release week with, or without, the tweak to agility?
    With

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    If you played 1.0 tuner and 1.03 you would realize that they both feel like different games.

    1.0 Feels Fast, smooth and like a whole new NHL game.

    1.03 Has a lot of sluggishness in the skating and feels exactly like NHL 18 with new skating.'

    Anyone who disputes this is obviously lying, it doesn't even feel like the same game lmao.

    The changes we made to skating were during the Beta and are in the 1.0 tuner. We haven't tuned skating since then in any of the tuners. If you are currently rolling back to 1.0 with the current game, it means you are playing with all of the patches applied still and therefore the only differences are the tuner changes.

    When you play offline, what Game Preset are you on and what is game style set to?

    Which tuner did you modify agility to better reflect attributes?

    The tuner we put out during the Beta. Which carried over as 1.00

    Something I don't understand. What, in the tuning of 1.03, caused the return of the bubble around puck carriers? Is it only the nudge from behind fix?
  • LeFury_27
    203 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    I play gamestyle 3/4 and allstar difficulty offline.

    However I'm wondering why it's so hard to knock a player off the puck in the corner. If you do it right it's almost impossible to knock them off. It's easy to rag the puck until the other player gets frustrated and moves out of position setting you up for easy 1T or short side goal.

    I've also noticed when trying to pick up pucks you do a circle around it again and completely miss it, I did not see that problem with beta tuner.
  • HoodHoppers
    1416 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    If you played 1.0 tuner and 1.03 you would realize that they both feel like different games.

    1.0 Feels Fast, smooth and like a whole new NHL game.

    1.03 Has a lot of sluggishness in the skating and feels exactly like NHL 18 with new skating.'

    Anyone who disputes this is obviously lying, it doesn't even feel like the same game lmao.

    The changes we made to skating were during the Beta and are in the 1.0 tuner. We haven't tuned skating since then in any of the tuners. If you are currently rolling back to 1.0 with the current game, it means you are playing with all of the patches applied still and therefore the only differences are the tuner changes.

    When you play offline, what Game Preset are you on and what is game style set to?

    Which tuner did you modify agility to better reflect attributes?

    The tuner we put out during the Beta. Which carried over as 1.00

    Edit: patch 1.2 you made adjustments to pivoting to reflect attributes more.
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited November 2018
    Something I don't understand. What, in the tuning of 1.03, caused the return of the bubble around puck carriers? Is it only the nudge from behind fix?
    Yes. I get the bubble analogy and that is why we tried to tune the game in the way we originally did.

    With the incidental contact changes and unique limb tension improvements this year in the new physics system, it already gave us more believable incidental collisions but I wanted more hits to equal a reaction above incidental, crossing into stumble and thought that players losing possession and reacquiring it was fairly realistic. We listened to what people had to say about the easy bumps and sat on our previous tuning for a while considering the pros and cons and seeing how things played out as people adapted to the new gameplay. We saw more and more videos posted and experienced cases first hand of players getting bumped off the puck from behind on breakaways and it was enough evidence that the previous tuning was a bit too far.

    The changes we made in the latest tuning were the following:
    - Increased the low end threshold for a low relative speed hit from behind to trigger a stumble.
    - Increased the distance a puck needed to be from the stick to trigger incidental puck loss just from an animation

    The first one was specific to hits from behind as that is what the highest tolerance is as you are pushing a player towards their center of mass. All player ratings, size differences and relative speed of the collision still weigh in. So a big player can still push a small player off the puck with less relative speed relying on their strength but in general, it was to raise that threshold so that we weren't getting weak bumps off the puck when we wouldn't see that in the real world.

    The second is there for anytime the stick gets more than 'x' distance from the puck. So that we don't see cases where the puck is glued to the stick. There were some cases where we were trying to go a bit far with this and the puck would come free just when an elbow was pushed from the unique limb tensions and thus the stick was moved further than where it expects to be in the animation by a few more inches and the puck would come free. To make it more about needing a collision to cause this, we increased that tolerance so that incidental puck loss from that condition wasn't so harsh.

    You still see players getting pushed off pucks, they just aren't as weak as they were so a player that gets beat can't just turn and shove a player that is passed them and cause a stumble or chasing a player on a breakaway where you don't have that relative speed advantage or a big size advantage can't easily cause a reaction.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Something I don't understand. What, in the tuning of 1.03, caused the return of the bubble around puck carriers? Is it only the nudge from behind fix?
    Yes. I get the bubble analogy and that is why we tried to tune the game in the way we originally did.

    With the incidental contact changes and unique limb tension improvements this year in the new physics system, it already gave us more believable incidental collisions but I wanted more hits to equal a reaction above incidental, crossing into stumble and thought that players losing possession and reacquiring it was fairly realistic. We listened to what people had to say about the easy bumps and sat on our previous tuning for a while considering the pros and cons and seeing how things played out as people adapted to the new gameplay. We saw more and more videos posted and experienced cases first hand of players getting bumped off the puck from behind on breakaways and it was enough evidence that the previous tuning was a bit too far.

    The changes we made in the latest tuning were the following:
    - Increased the low end threshold for a low relative speed hit from behind to trigger a stumble.
    - Increased the distance a puck needed to be from the stick to trigger incidental puck loss just from an animation

    The first one was specific to hits from behind as that is what the highest tolerance is as you are pushing a player towards their center of mass. All player ratings, size differences and relative speed of the collision still weigh in. So a big player can still push a small player off the puck with less relative speed relying on their strength but in general, it was to raise that threshold so that we weren't getting weak bumps off the puck when we wouldn't see that in the real world.

    The second is there for anytime the stick gets more than 'x' distance from the puck. So that we don't see cases where the puck is glued to the stick. There were some cases where we were trying to go a bit far with this and the puck would come free just when an elbow was pushed from the unique limb tensions and thus the stick was moved further than where it expects to be in the animation by a few more inches and the puck would come free. To make it more about needing a collision to cause this, we increased that tolerance so that incidental puck loss from that condition wasn't so harsh.

    You still see players getting pushed off pucks, they just aren't as weak as they were so a player that gets beat can't just turn and shove a player that is passed them and cause a stumble or chasing a player on a breakaway where you don't have that relative speed advantage or a big size advantage can't easily cause a reaction.

    Well, if I may, it is this exact specific part of the tuning that has me royally mad at the game right now. This is what is completely killing my fun, killing the cycling of the puck and team play, and promoting hogging.

    I fully agree that the nudges from behind were unrealistic and certainly needed fixing, just like stick lifts in the beta. However, from what I gather, and if I understood correctly, you are simply saying that the only way to fix hits from behind, is to tune hits as a complete package. Am I wrong?

    I find it incredibly frustrating that we have reverted back to NHL 18's tactics of protecting the puck. It simply negates body checks to the point they look broken. You clearly see your playing thrashing the carrier, yet the carrier carries on as if you were never there. Not even the slightest reaction in any way, shape, or form. Can you tell me that this is what I have to expect for the rest of the year? Is this pretty much what we can consider the "final" build?

    And if I may, the original tuning promoted team play, which is the basics of hockey. One simply couldn't hog all game long which was fun, different, and refreshing. Now? D men in the offensive zone are completely ignored, never included in the play. In the defensive zone, we basically feel impotent for the most part. Incredibly boring, stale, predictable and overly played over the years.
  • The problem is now with the new tuner when you try to push someone off in the corner who is ragging the puck it is just simply impossible. I have been doing it all day today and it feels unrealistic and just plain stupid.

    One extreme to the other, too easy to a player push off the puck and now too hard against a player who knows what they are doing. I've already made 3 people rage quit today by doing this, and it's not fun but it works. lol

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    This proves they don’t play there game, why does the left D come over to the right while having some kind of attack? Who can I cycle the puck to?
    Do you happen to have more footage from this game to see how that defender got into that state? Or if you are suggesting it happens often, I would be curious to know what strategies you use so that we can reproduce it.

    Thanks.

    No I don’t have more footage, sorry. My strategies are- 1-2-2 aggr, 1-4, full forecheck, full attack, high pressure, tight point. I see the ai on the opposite team do it all the time. Just play the game against the ai in hut challenge on all star or higher. Thank you for the response, hope that helps.

  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer

    Edit: patch 1.2 you made adjustments to pivoting to reflect attributes more.

    Yep, we tried that but it didn't actually work which is why I don't include it. We knew it was going to be subtle when you are dealing with small percentages over such a small number of frames but wanted to start subtle and try something as worse skaters probably should be slower pivoting than they are currently.

    However, in the end, that change didn't make a difference with the current tuning/math involved within the range of skating attributes we have in the game for the licensed players and EASHL player classes due to how small of a range it was.

    We didn't end up seeing a frame of difference with or without the change. If we tuned it up, it may work better but with the narrative from the community being that skating was fine before, we thought we would leave it as it was 'before' rather than make that tuning work.


  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    I fully agree that the nudges from behind were unrealistic and certainly needed fixing, just like stick lifts in the beta. However, from what I gather, and if I understood correctly, you are simply saying that the only way to fix hits from behind, is to tune hits as a complete package. Am I wrong?

    I find it incredibly frustrating that we have reverted back to NHL 18's tactics of protecting the puck. It simply negates body checks to the point they look broken. You clearly see your playing thrashing the carrier, yet the carrier carries on as if you were never there. Not even the slightest reaction in any way, shape, or form. Can you tell me that this is what I have to expect for the rest of the year? Is this pretty much what we can consider the "final" build?

    And if I may, the original tuning promoted team play, which is the basics of hockey. One simply couldn't hog all game long which was fun, different, and refreshing. Now? D men in the offensive zone are completely ignored, never included in the play. In the defensive zone, we basically feel impotent for the most part. Incredibly boring, stale, predictable and overly played over the years.

    For your first question about it impacting all of hitting, no that isn't the case. We isolated this to low relative speed hits, specifically from behind. Better players were already doing a better job of protecting the puck and keeping relative speed low before the change and after it, they would be even better. As soon as we draw a line in the sand with a tuner, it allows people to attribute everything to that without assuming the other variables that people are changing their player classes and attributes and adjusting their own style of play and then continuing to do that after the tuner as well.

    Is it the final change? I can't guarantee one way or the other. Like everything, we aren't going to flip flop on changes. We take a lot of time before making changes and we will do the same if we decide to tune again. Are there cases now where players could be slightly too strong on the puck? Possibly. We aren't guaranteeing that we got everything perfect but we tested around what we wanted to fix and played out a lot of other scenarios to make sure players were getting rubbed off the puck properly and that we were mostly isolated to the scenarios we wanted to improve before releasing the tuner. And we would do the same if we made further changes/tuning.

    I am glad to hear that you feel our original tuning promoted team play as that is one of our main goals. But another huge one is gameplay balance. If there are pieces of the game that hurt that balance, for example a defender having success nudging someone off the puck too easily after being beat from a position where they shouldn't have that leverage, we want to look at those things and address it. If we have gone too far, we will be taking a look at it but we need to see how people adapt and how things play in a much bigger sample size before making calls. This forum alone is far too small a sample size for us to even take a unanimous opinion from but we do take all the feedback very seriously and into consideration in anything we are looking at and weigh it back against our goals as a gameplay team.

    I appreciate the constructive and well thought out feedback. Thanks.
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    I play gamestyle 3/4 and allstar difficulty offline.

    However I'm wondering why it's so hard to knock a player off the puck in the corner. If you do it right it's almost impossible to knock them off. It's easy to rag the puck until the other player gets frustrated and moves out of position setting you up for easy 1T or short side goal.

    I've also noticed when trying to pick up pucks you do a circle around it again and completely miss it, I did not see that problem with beta tuner.

    Thats all this game has boiled down to is who can rag the best and who can cheese more goals because the goalies are also trash after the last tuner ..
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I fully agree that the nudges from behind were unrealistic and certainly needed fixing, just like stick lifts in the beta. However, from what I gather, and if I understood correctly, you are simply saying that the only way to fix hits from behind, is to tune hits as a complete package. Am I wrong?

    I find it incredibly frustrating that we have reverted back to NHL 18's tactics of protecting the puck. It simply negates body checks to the point they look broken. You clearly see your playing thrashing the carrier, yet the carrier carries on as if you were never there. Not even the slightest reaction in any way, shape, or form. Can you tell me that this is what I have to expect for the rest of the year? Is this pretty much what we can consider the "final" build?

    And if I may, the original tuning promoted team play, which is the basics of hockey. One simply couldn't hog all game long which was fun, different, and refreshing. Now? D men in the offensive zone are completely ignored, never included in the play. In the defensive zone, we basically feel impotent for the most part. Incredibly boring, stale, predictable and overly played over the years.

    For your first question about it impacting all of hitting, no that isn't the case. We isolated this to low relative speed hits, specifically from behind. Better players were already doing a better job of protecting the puck and keeping relative speed low before the change and after it, they would be even better. As soon as we draw a line in the sand with a tuner, it allows people to attribute everything to that without assuming the other variables that people are changing their player classes and attributes and adjusting their own style of play and then continuing to do that after the tuner as well.

    Is it the final change? I can't guarantee one way or the other. Like everything, we aren't going to flip flop on changes. We take a lot of time before making changes and we will do the same if we decide to tune again. Are there cases now where players could be slightly too strong on the puck? Possibly. We aren't guaranteeing that we got everything perfect but we tested around what we wanted to fix and played out a lot of other scenarios to make sure players were getting rubbed off the puck properly and that we were mostly isolated to the scenarios we wanted to improve before releasing the tuner. And we would do the same if we made further changes/tuning.

    I am glad to hear that you feel our original tuning promoted team play as that is one of our main goals. But another huge one is gameplay balance. If there are pieces of the game that hurt that balance, for example a defender having success nudging someone off the puck too easily after being beat from a position where they shouldn't have that leverage, we want to look at those things and address it. If we have gone too far, we will be taking a look at it but we need to see how people adapt and how things play in a much bigger sample size before making calls. This forum alone is far too small a sample size for us to even take a unanimous opinion from but we do take all the feedback very seriously and into consideration in anything we are looking at and weigh it back against our goals as a gameplay team.

    I appreciate the constructive and well thought out feedback. Thanks.

    For the record, holding your stick to the side of your body in an unrealistic manner should not be an effective way to "protect the puck" in this game. I'm not sure why the actual protect the puck feature with A/X was even implemented into the controls as it hardly ever serves as an effective way to protect the puck to begin with. This went from the best game in the last decade to the worst/equivalent to the worst (NHL 18) in a matter of 2 months. I can't fathom where the disconnect is between EA and its NHL base lies but I'd take getting bumped off the puck from behind as opposed to this arcade cheese-fest any day of the week. Keep up the great work!!!!!
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    I play gamestyle 3/4 and allstar difficulty offline.

    However I'm wondering why it's so hard to knock a player off the puck in the corner. If you do it right it's almost impossible to knock them off. It's easy to rag the puck until the other player gets frustrated and moves out of position setting you up for easy 1T or short side goal.

    I've also noticed when trying to pick up pucks you do a circle around it again and completely miss it, I did not see that problem with beta tuner.

    Thats all this game has boiled down to is who can rag the best and who can cheese more goals because the goalies are also trash after the last tuner ..

    lol yeah, very true.

    And I still struggle with understanding why goalies were nerfed in HUT and versus. I mean if people were struggling to score they were doing something wrong. I had no issues with goalies. I Thought finally EA gave goalies an accurate representation of what they are in real life. Some of the greatest athletes in the world. Anyway, here we are. I scored twice today from the blue line with no screen, right through the five-hole off the rush.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited November 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I fully agree that the nudges from behind were unrealistic and certainly needed fixing, just like stick lifts in the beta. However, from what I gather, and if I understood correctly, you are simply saying that the only way to fix hits from behind, is to tune hits as a complete package. Am I wrong?

    I find it incredibly frustrating that we have reverted back to NHL 18's tactics of protecting the puck. It simply negates body checks to the point they look broken. You clearly see your playing thrashing the carrier, yet the carrier carries on as if you were never there. Not even the slightest reaction in any way, shape, or form. Can you tell me that this is what I have to expect for the rest of the year? Is this pretty much what we can consider the "final" build?

    And if I may, the original tuning promoted team play, which is the basics of hockey. One simply couldn't hog all game long which was fun, different, and refreshing. Now? D men in the offensive zone are completely ignored, never included in the play. In the defensive zone, we basically feel impotent for the most part. Incredibly boring, stale, predictable and overly played over the years.

    For your first question about it impacting all of hitting, no that isn't the case. We isolated this to low relative speed hits, specifically from behind. Better players were already doing a better job of protecting the puck and keeping relative speed low before the change and after it, they would be even better. As soon as we draw a line in the sand with a tuner, it allows people to attribute everything to that without assuming the other variables that people are changing their player classes and attributes and adjusting their own style of play and then continuing to do that after the tuner as well.

    Is it the final change? I can't guarantee one way or the other. Like everything, we aren't going to flip flop on changes. We take a lot of time before making changes and we will do the same if we decide to tune again. Are there cases now where players could be slightly too strong on the puck? Possibly. We aren't guaranteeing that we got everything perfect but we tested around what we wanted to fix and played out a lot of other scenarios to make sure players were getting rubbed off the puck properly and that we were mostly isolated to the scenarios we wanted to improve before releasing the tuner. And we would do the same if we made further changes/tuning.

    I am glad to hear that you feel our original tuning promoted team play as that is one of our main goals. But another huge one is gameplay balance. If there are pieces of the game that hurt that balance, for example a defender having success nudging someone off the puck too easily after being beat from a position where they shouldn't have that leverage, we want to look at those things and address it. If we have gone too far, we will be taking a look at it but we need to see how people adapt and how things play in a much bigger sample size before making calls. This forum alone is far too small a sample size for us to even take a unanimous opinion from but we do take all the feedback very seriously and into consideration in anything we are looking at and weigh it back against our goals as a gameplay team.

    I appreciate the constructive and well thought out feedback. Thanks.

    I agree with the first bolded part. Maybe D men were being slightly rewarded for being out of position. I can see where you are coming from, and I guess I have to agree on that one. However, can't there be a happy medium? Before, small nudges were too effective, in a way, and now decent hits are ineffective.
    How about if lower speeds don't nudge the puck loose, but at least hinder skating, or momentum? As it is, it simply cannot be where a skater simply negates the body check as if it never happened, but can we at least slow him down so a team mate can box him in? As much as it was maybe too much on one side, now it's a bit too much on the other side. I mean, you see it in every game. The constant ragging is insane. Watch Twitch streams and it is literally all you see.

    Yea I know you need a large sample size and I know even more this place cannot be the only place to gather feedback. It is a nuthouse at times lol.

    I also thank-you for the constructive feedback. It's always nice to get your feedback and better comprehend the game's intricacies and programming behind it. Even though you probably come in here the same way you would enter a battlefield, meaning head down and running from snipers you still come back to answer questions lol. I appreciate it.
  • LeFury_27 wrote: »
    LeFury_27 wrote: »
    I play gamestyle 3/4 and allstar difficulty offline.

    However I'm wondering why it's so hard to knock a player off the puck in the corner. If you do it right it's almost impossible to knock them off. It's easy to rag the puck until the other player gets frustrated and moves out of position setting you up for easy 1T or short side goal.

    I've also noticed when trying to pick up pucks you do a circle around it again and completely miss it, I did not see that problem with beta tuner.

    Thats all this game has boiled down to is who can rag the best and who can cheese more goals because the goalies are also trash after the last tuner ..

    lol yeah, very true.

    And I still struggle with understanding why goalies were nerfed in HUT and versus. I mean if people were struggling to score they were doing something wrong. I had no issues with goalies. I Thought finally EA gave goalies an accurate representation of what they are in real life. Some of the greatest athletes in the world. Anyway, here we are. I scored twice today from the blue line with no screen, right through the five-hole off the rush.

    Lol ..that's because the elite couldn't score their usual trash cheese goals and cried about it ..bacon uploaded a video and it shows how trash the goalies are now
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    For the record, holding your stick to the side of your body in an unrealistic manner should not be an effective way to "protect the puck" in this game. I'm not sure why the actual protect the puck feature with A/X was even implemented into the controls as it hardly ever serves as an effective way to protect the puck to begin with. This went from the best game in the last decade to the worst/equivalent to the worst (NHL 18) in a matter of 2 months. I can't fathom where the disconnect is between EA and its NHL base lies but I'd take getting bumped off the puck from behind as opposed to this arcade cheese-fest any day of the week. Keep up the great work!!!!!

    Holding the puck out of reach of your opponent due to incidental stick on stick, stick on body and pokechecks is a smart thing to do. You are limiting yourself to gliding though. Protect puck less you move your feet and continue to drive in, so it depends on the scenario.

    If you are gliding you are in more control and balance than when skating but if you roll the puck back to move your center of mass more behind you, you are actually at less balance so we do take that into account.
  • I'm absolutely blown away with all of the video evidence, the testimonials, etc, that they think the game is tuned well now.

    This is the most I've ever seen a forum on board with fixing the skating and the hitting/bubbles and they can't see it.

    I don't get it.

    You see it on the forums.

    It's on reddit.

    It's on Facebook.

    It's on YouTube.

    I'm pulling my hair out reading some of these replies. I'm not trying to troll. I'm not trying to get an advantage for my style of play (this tuning helps me tremendously because I know how to abuse the same system that's been there for the past 5 years). I'm not trying to instigate a fight with ea. I'm just completely lost on how you think-- through all of that media representation-- that the skating and hitting is where you want it.

    We get it. Offline practice mode the game works great. Tough to emulate the goalie complaints, the hitting complaints, the skating complaints, etc. when the game is playing as intended.

    This was the first year in however long that because of the skating, Fatman lag was extremely difficult to notice. I had a game in yellow on the beta and it still played great.

    Now I can't even play--

    You know what? Forget it. I'm not gonna waste any more of my time typing this stuff up. It'll likely get deleted, I'll probably get banned again, and I'll get even more disappointed in the end.
  • I'm taking a break from the forum and the game until puck ragging and cheese goals that should never go in are fixed. I'm so disappointed the game has gone this way. NHL is really the only game I play on PS4 and the whole reason I bought a year of ps plus. So aggravating that the game is ruined and there is no excuse for it.
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