What I don't understand is the impression that you give off is that hitting is balanced the way it is now, but then you agree with somebody openly saying that the hitting physics were better from previous tunings of the game. You can't have one without the other.
Did you like the hitting from the beta which simulated realistic angling of players into the boards, or are you content with the balance now of players bouncing off of checks and ricocheting around defenders?
I was agreeing that it was a well written post. And I think his post has a lot of merit.
If I didn't think the tuning before was going to create a solid hockey experience, we wouldn't have released it. I think it was playing great but that doesn't mean that I think it is playing horribly now. The tuning isn't night and day like some claim. We learn more as we watch people play though. That is why I explain the changes and what we were trying to achieve.
I like puck carriers being more accountable and I like encouraging a team game of hockey but I also agreed that players were getting bumped off the puck too easily on low relative speed hits from behind.
I don't agree when people say they can't hit now. The changes are fairly isolated but players are also looking for ways to abuse the changes as well, so we are always keeping up with that side too.
Should their be some more situations where you should see more of a reaction from players as they get pushed from behind such as having to brace/dip their shoulders? Yes, definitely. In those situations should they lose the puck though? Not necessarily in the way our game was handling it anyways. So we tune around the outcomes and the balance. In future, maybe we would have more stumbles where players keep the puck but without those, we tuned it so the threshold to go from incidental contact to stumble was higher from the back at those low relative speeds.
We have some tuning at the office that may be better but we will continue to play with it and see. Hard to say if we will release a tuner or not but we are looking at it.
Just curious, do you guys find that when tuning the game that sometimes you fix something but something else gets messed up? Kind of unintended consequences. I used to tinker with sliders to the point of madness because of that and I’m just wondering if that is a challenge you guys face when tuning the game.
Just curious, do you guys find that when tuning the game that sometimes you fix something but something else gets messed up? Kind of unintended consequences. I used to tinker with sliders to the point of madness because of that and I’m just wondering if that is a challenge you guys face when tuning the game.
It’s always a fine balance and gets tougher the closer you get to your intentions as you are always trading one thing for the other as you dial things in.
I wouldn’t say they are unintended but you hope to preserve something that is working and to be able to isolate on something else you want to fix but tuning one thing will always impact others the more organic the system is.
Just curious, do you guys find that when tuning the game that sometimes you fix something but something else gets messed up? Kind of unintended consequences. I used to tinker with sliders to the point of madness because of that and I’m just wondering if that is a challenge you guys face when tuning the game.
It’s always a fine balance and gets tougher the closer you get to your intentions as you are always trading one thing for the other as you dial things in.
I wouldn’t say they are unintended but you hope to preserve something that is working and to be able to isolate on something else you want to fix but tuning one thing will always impact others the more organic the system is.
...and very good answer too!
This might be the reason why there are sometimes posts like
"(A) feels worse after tuner"
"We didn't change the (A), just (B) and (C)”
And add some lag to the soup and ”conspiracy theories” are ready to kick in.
Just curious, do you guys find that when tuning the game that sometimes you fix something but something else gets messed up? Kind of unintended consequences. I used to tinker with sliders to the point of madness because of that and I’m just wondering if that is a challenge you guys face when tuning the game.
It’s always a fine balance and gets tougher the closer you get to your intentions as you are always trading one thing for the other as you dial things in.
I wouldn’t say they are unintended but you hope to preserve something that is working and to be able to isolate on something else you want to fix but tuning one thing will always impact others the more organic the system is.
Why not just go back to Beta tuner and retune things that have caused changes. The only way to improve the game now is to start at beta tuner, that was the best version of NHL19. Now if you improve things from the game where it is now it still won't be as good as Beta Tuner. Please please please bring back Beta tuner. Again I say it was the best version of NHL19 hands down.
Just curious, do you guys find that when tuning the game that sometimes you fix something but something else gets messed up? Kind of unintended consequences. I used to tinker with sliders to the point of madness because of that and I’m just wondering if that is a challenge you guys face when tuning the game.
It’s always a fine balance and gets tougher the closer you get to your intentions as you are always trading one thing for the other as you dial things in.
I wouldn’t say they are unintended but you hope to preserve something that is working and to be able to isolate on something else you want to fix but tuning one thing will always impact others the more organic the system is.
Why not just go back to Beta tuner and retune things that have caused changes. The only way to improve the game now is to start at beta tuner, that was the best version of NHL19. Now if you improve things from the game where it is now it still won't be as good as Beta Tuner. Please please please bring back Beta tuner. Again I say it was the best version of NHL19 hands down.
I agree. Might be better to go back to stage one and try again. I think the unintended consequences have taken a toll and it’s snowballed. The Beta with the Beta tuner was fantastic
They said they won't bring it back because of PRIDE! Please someone who makes changes give me a good reason on why you won't listen to the community? Is anyone out there??!!
We listen to everything. The problem is that you actually don't all agree as much as you think you do. At the highest level you do -- the glory days of the beta were better -- but in the details, there are a lot of pieces people are asking for us to retain and/or are aligned were good ideas that when you look at the actual changes that were in the tuner sets, doesn't align with rolling things back.
We can however consider more improvements moving forward and we are. Some of which may require tweaking existing changes or revisiting what we did and looking at other options to get best of both world scenarios, if possible.
People don't want weak rebound goals or players bumped off the puck from behind on breakaways at low relative speeds but they also want the goalie to challenge shooters more and for players to not be able to hold on to the puck as easy when hit at low relative speeds. Players don't want the ai to play a big role in the outcome of games and want more user controlled defense but they also don't want to see players dancing in the corners where you probably use teammate support in real life to shut those players down easier.
We are listening. Balancing a game when there are multiple opinions isn't easy. But we are listening and actively looking at options in case there are ways to get better results across the board.
I won’t address everything because you obviously are reading all the feedback. I’m an old school hockey sim guy. Been playing the series since it’s inception on SEGA Genesis. I’m a pretty harsh critic because I’m looking for the best offline experience possible but this applies to offline and online....
I can say flat out that what impressed this cynic the most when I played the Beta besides the new skating was that when a player bumped, not checked, the puck carrier along the boards he slightly lost his balance and the puck went lose. The contact, reaction, and animation were fantastic and it stood out to me as just as impressive as the skating. It was something the series was missing. Between that and the skating I thought the series may finally be heading in the right direction.
In my opinion you didn’t need to stop opposing players from catching people on breakaway and knocking them off the puck from behind, you needed to stop making it so easy for them to catch you in the first place. In the games current state physical contact is so unrealistic. Along the boards now defenders who make light contact now just bounce off and the puck carrier continues as if the contact never happened. In open ice it’s even worse. Guys just rag the puck and contact does nothing. You guys were very proud of the New skating and rightfully so but you also touted the physics changes and they were good. Just because people complained doesn’t mean it should have been changed. The game was stale and you guys made some much needed changes but with change comes adjustment on the gamers part. I know you see it as subjective but I’m telling you the game took a major step back with the tuners and does resemble last years game much more than the innovative features you showcased in the Beta. Maybe they weren’t perfect but the direction was right. The Beta should have been built upon instead it went into rewind
Regardless of feedback and opinions, I want version 1.01 to come back, with a slight nerf to bumps from behind and a slight nerf to stick lifts.
Now, almost everything is nerfed except for north-south hits. Pretty boring puck-hogging gameplay we have seen for the last 6 years. 19 was fun, now it's yawn.
They said they won't bring it back because of PRIDE! Please someone who makes changes give me a good reason on why you won't listen to the community? Is anyone out there??!!
We listen to everything. The problem is that you actually don't all agree as much as you think you do. At the highest level you do -- the glory days of the beta were better -- but in the details, there are a lot of pieces people are asking for us to retain and/or are aligned were good ideas that when you look at the actual changes that were in the tuner sets, doesn't align with rolling things back.
We can however consider more improvements moving forward and we are. Some of which may require tweaking existing changes or revisiting what we did and looking at other options to get best of both world scenarios, if possible.
People don't want weak rebound goals or players bumped off the puck from behind on breakaways at low relative speeds but they also want the goalie to challenge shooters more and for players to not be able to hold on to the puck as easy when hit at low relative speeds. Players don't want the ai to play a big role in the outcome of games and want more user controlled defense but they also don't want to see players dancing in the corners where you probably use teammate support in real life to shut those players down easier.
We are listening. Balancing a game when there are multiple opinions isn't easy. But we are listening and actively looking at options in case there are ways to get better results across the board.
What does any of this have to do with our players turning like an aircraft carrier? The skaters ALL felt great in the beta. They all suck now. What's the problem? You guys are on a fast track to having no customers soon. Is that the main goal??? I just don't get it.
I do think (only my opinion,no fact to it) the series is going to close it's doors.Sorry,company's who do not put effort into their games end up closing shop on that game! The writing in my opinion is on the wall.
I do think (only my opinion,no fact to it) the series is going to close it's doors.Sorry,company's who do not put effort into their games end up closing shop on that game! The writing in my opinion is on the wall.
I don’t see that just yet. Sales have been on a decline for a few years and they are running out of gimmicks to push but the new skating engine was a step in the right direction, HUT makes them crazy money which is why it’s the only mode they really care about, and next gen consoles are around the corner with frostbite probably making its debut then. They cannot continue to ignore the hardcore hockey sim fans and they cannot struggle through the release of the next gen consoles....another NHL 15 type release would be disastrous.
I do think (only my opinion,no fact to it) the series is going to close it's doors.Sorry,company's who do not put effort into their games end up closing shop on that game! The writing in my opinion is on the wall.
I don’t see that just yet. Sales have been on a decline for a few years and they are running out of gimmicks to push but the new skating engine was a step in the right direction, HUT makes them crazy money which is why it’s the only mode they really care about, and next gen consoles are around the corner with frostbite probably making its debut then. They cannot continue to ignore the hardcore hockey sim fans and they cannot struggle through the release of the next gen consoles....another NHL 15 type release would be disastrous.
If HUT is the only mode they care about, why were there huge updates to EASHL and GM? Next gen consoles are not exactly around the corner either.
What do the hardcore hockey fans want? It's not hardcore sim gameplay. People keep asking for the gameplay from the previous games. That's more casual than what we have now.
EASHL got a new game mode, Ones, that every sane person hates, was not requested by anyone and was a waste of developmental time. And screwed up drop ins with the outdoor pond hockey thing. Some people thought that was a good idea. Even if it was well done (it wasnt) 5 mins in that wears off and you are left with the same old thing. Expression lipstick on a pig would come to mind but this is more like smearing something gross and smelly on a pig. Again waste of time.
I guess on some small level hockey bags are part of EASHL... a complete disaster. who the heck wants to waste time arbitrarily opening 1000s of hockey bags? Just give the rewards. another waste of time that made the game worse.
The interface/UI changes are horrible.
Half the players can't get into games thanks to DRE and the ones that stayed can't play games consistently thanks to all the problems with searching and other teams dropping players.
was there some other ground breaking change?
oh yep I'll give credit where it is due. New player build system is way better than old one. but really should have been done 4 years ago.
I do agree with you that they don't only care about HUT. That's just silly. I think they care about making a good game, but EA just keeps proving year after year they are unable to produce a fully functioning game that is enjoyable for the masses. Overall it's a failure almost every year. It would be like Ford building cars that while technically you could drive them, they have no windows one year, the next they fixed the windows but forgot to make the cars that go faster than 10mph and on and on.
There were little issues here and there in previous gen but current gen has been a complete disaster with major problems every single year.
EASHL got a new game mode, Ones, that every sane person hates, was not requested by anyone and was a waste of developmental time. And screwed up drop ins with the outdoor pond hockey thing. Some people thought that was a good idea. Even if it was well done (it wasnt) 5 mins in that wears off and you are left with the same old thing. Expression lipstick on a pig would come to mind but this is more like smearing something gross and smelly on a pig. Again waste of time.
I guess on some small level hockey bags are part of EASHL... a complete disaster. who the heck wants to waste time arbitrarily opening 1000s of hockey bags? Just give the rewards. another waste of time that made the game worse.
The interface/UI changes are horrible.
Half the players can't get into games thanks to DRE and the ones that stayed can't play games consistently thanks to all the problems with searching and other teams dropping players.
was there some other ground breaking change?
oh yep I'll give credit where it is due. New player build system is way better than old one. but really should have been done 4 years ago.
I do agree with you that they don't only care about HUT. That's just silly. I think they care about making a good game, but EA just keeps proving year after year they are unable to produce a fully functioning game that is enjoyable for the masses. Overall it's a failure almost every year. It would be like Ford building cars that while technically you could drive them, they have no windows one year, the next they fixed the windows but forgot to make the cars that go faster than 10mph and on and on.
There were little issues here and there in previous gen but current gen has been a complete disaster with major problems every single year.
Most of what you're talking about is subjective. Yeah, I didn't see a bunch of requests for Ones, but it's obvious that its popular.
I don't mind the UI changes. I'd like to see it streamlined more, but it's minor.
I agree opening hockey bags is annoying. It doesn't ruin my fun with the game though.
I play on Xbox and haven't had any DRE's. It's unfortunate for the PS4 guys though. I'd be frustrated for sure.
So, for me, I have a fully functioning game. Which is why I have so few complaints about it.
Beta tuner wasn't perfect. However I liked it better when there were no cheese goals (like skating in over the blue line and firing in a wrist shot unscreened and goes in) I had enough of that in prior generations. I feel the two biggest things that need help are stick lifts need a buff (not as strong as before, but more useful than now) and no more long shots going in. If that brings down scoring- so be it.
Beta tuner wasn't perfect. However I liked it better when there were no cheese goals (like skating in over the blue line and firing in a wrist shot unscreened and goes in) I had enough of that in prior generations. I feel the two biggest things that need help are stick lifts need a buff (not as strong as before, but more useful than now) and no more long shots going in. If that brings down scoring- so be it.
There were cheese goals. Tuners resolved them. Stick lifts work very well when you use them right. Long shots can be defended. They're a valid way to score in the real world as well.
This is what I mean when I say this community doesn't want a hardcore sim game. People complain that the stick lift is too hard and shots from far out shouldn't go in. Both of those are viable in real hockey.
Beta tuner wasn't perfect. However I liked it better when there were no cheese goals (like skating in over the blue line and firing in a wrist shot unscreened and goes in) I had enough of that in prior generations. I feel the two biggest things that need help are stick lifts need a buff (not as strong as before, but more useful than now) and no more long shots going in. If that brings down scoring- so be it.
There were cheese goals. Tuners resolved them. Stick lifts work very well when you use them right. Long shots can be defended. They're a valid way to score in the real world as well.
This is what I mean when I say this community doesn't want a hardcore sim game. People complain that the stick lift is too hard and shots from far out shouldn't go in. Both of those are viable in real hockey.
Please provide a video of you doing stick lifts consistently without penalties.
Stick lifts are practically useless now as they generate way too many penalties.
Beta tuner wasn't perfect. However I liked it better when there were no cheese goals (like skating in over the blue line and firing in a wrist shot unscreened and goes in) I had enough of that in prior generations. I feel the two biggest things that need help are stick lifts need a buff (not as strong as before, but more useful than now) and no more long shots going in. If that brings down scoring- so be it.
There were cheese goals. Tuners resolved them. Stick lifts work very well when you use them right. Long shots can be defended. They're a valid way to score in the real world as well.
This is what I mean when I say this community doesn't want a hardcore sim game. People complain that the stick lift is too hard and shots from far out shouldn't go in. Both of those are viable in real hockey.
cheese goals still work perfectly, tuners made them worse. stick lifts are now horrible and almost instant penalty in almost all situations.
stick lift is not anything close to real life. stick lifting/checking is basically a non stop thing and would almost never cause any penalties in real life. Hooking, slashing and high sticking is in no way related to stick lifting and checking. They are intentional actions taken by hockey players hoping they do it "light enough" that they get away with it. Same as cross checking. Well high sticking is something that just happens by accident when someone is wild with their stick, never as a result of someone trying to "stick lift". this is an area where EA has been a complete failure. And this is why everyone is crying to have the hitting back that they had in Beta.
I would take all of the issues that were in the beta over the game we have now. Sticklifting and pokecheck weren't ideal, but if we have to go back to the way that was to get the rest of the old gameplay back, I'd do it. Nothing in the beta was worse than the best parts of the latest patch/tuner combo.
In the beta, sticklifting was too forgiving, pokechecking was not forgiving enough, and bumping into people was OP. But all of that is preferable to NHL 18. Please, if even just for a weekend restore the original tuning/patch and get feedback from the community to see if we'd prefer it the current way or the old way.
Replies
I wouldn’t say they are unintended but you hope to preserve something that is working and to be able to isolate on something else you want to fix but tuning one thing will always impact others the more organic the system is.
This might be the reason why there are sometimes posts like
"(A) feels worse after tuner"
"We didn't change the (A), just (B) and (C)”
And add some lag to the soup and ”conspiracy theories” are ready to kick in.
Why not just go back to Beta tuner and retune things that have caused changes. The only way to improve the game now is to start at beta tuner, that was the best version of NHL19. Now if you improve things from the game where it is now it still won't be as good as Beta Tuner. Please please please bring back Beta tuner. Again I say it was the best version of NHL19 hands down.
I agree. Might be better to go back to stage one and try again. I think the unintended consequences have taken a toll and it’s snowballed. The Beta with the Beta tuner was fantastic
Excellent post sir well said
Now, almost everything is nerfed except for north-south hits. Pretty boring puck-hogging gameplay we have seen for the last 6 years. 19 was fun, now it's yawn.
What does any of this have to do with our players turning like an aircraft carrier? The skaters ALL felt great in the beta. They all suck now. What's the problem? You guys are on a fast track to having no customers soon. Is that the main goal??? I just don't get it.
I don’t see that just yet. Sales have been on a decline for a few years and they are running out of gimmicks to push but the new skating engine was a step in the right direction, HUT makes them crazy money which is why it’s the only mode they really care about, and next gen consoles are around the corner with frostbite probably making its debut then. They cannot continue to ignore the hardcore hockey sim fans and they cannot struggle through the release of the next gen consoles....another NHL 15 type release would be disastrous.
If HUT is the only mode they care about, why were there huge updates to EASHL and GM? Next gen consoles are not exactly around the corner either.
What do the hardcore hockey fans want? It's not hardcore sim gameplay. People keep asking for the gameplay from the previous games. That's more casual than what we have now.
EASHL got a new game mode, Ones, that every sane person hates, was not requested by anyone and was a waste of developmental time. And screwed up drop ins with the outdoor pond hockey thing. Some people thought that was a good idea. Even if it was well done (it wasnt) 5 mins in that wears off and you are left with the same old thing. Expression lipstick on a pig would come to mind but this is more like smearing something gross and smelly on a pig. Again waste of time.
I guess on some small level hockey bags are part of EASHL... a complete disaster. who the heck wants to waste time arbitrarily opening 1000s of hockey bags? Just give the rewards. another waste of time that made the game worse.
The interface/UI changes are horrible.
Half the players can't get into games thanks to DRE and the ones that stayed can't play games consistently thanks to all the problems with searching and other teams dropping players.
was there some other ground breaking change?
oh yep I'll give credit where it is due. New player build system is way better than old one. but really should have been done 4 years ago.
I do agree with you that they don't only care about HUT. That's just silly. I think they care about making a good game, but EA just keeps proving year after year they are unable to produce a fully functioning game that is enjoyable for the masses. Overall it's a failure almost every year. It would be like Ford building cars that while technically you could drive them, they have no windows one year, the next they fixed the windows but forgot to make the cars that go faster than 10mph and on and on.
There were little issues here and there in previous gen but current gen has been a complete disaster with major problems every single year.
Most of what you're talking about is subjective. Yeah, I didn't see a bunch of requests for Ones, but it's obvious that its popular.
I don't mind the UI changes. I'd like to see it streamlined more, but it's minor.
I agree opening hockey bags is annoying. It doesn't ruin my fun with the game though.
I play on Xbox and haven't had any DRE's. It's unfortunate for the PS4 guys though. I'd be frustrated for sure.
So, for me, I have a fully functioning game. Which is why I have so few complaints about it.
There were cheese goals. Tuners resolved them. Stick lifts work very well when you use them right. Long shots can be defended. They're a valid way to score in the real world as well.
This is what I mean when I say this community doesn't want a hardcore sim game. People complain that the stick lift is too hard and shots from far out shouldn't go in. Both of those are viable in real hockey.
Please provide a video of you doing stick lifts consistently without penalties.
Stick lifts are practically useless now as they generate way too many penalties.
cheese goals still work perfectly, tuners made them worse. stick lifts are now horrible and almost instant penalty in almost all situations.
stick lift is not anything close to real life. stick lifting/checking is basically a non stop thing and would almost never cause any penalties in real life. Hooking, slashing and high sticking is in no way related to stick lifting and checking. They are intentional actions taken by hockey players hoping they do it "light enough" that they get away with it. Same as cross checking. Well high sticking is something that just happens by accident when someone is wild with their stick, never as a result of someone trying to "stick lift". this is an area where EA has been a complete failure. And this is why everyone is crying to have the hitting back that they had in Beta.
In the beta, sticklifting was too forgiving, pokechecking was not forgiving enough, and bumping into people was OP. But all of that is preferable to NHL 18. Please, if even just for a weekend restore the original tuning/patch and get feedback from the community to see if we'd prefer it the current way or the old way.