More fun defending rebounds
Ok. Why does my player's stick move away from the puck just as I'm about to pick it up? OT goal too. Fun times.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr_iBoJYqmM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr_iBoJYqmM 0
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I’d say that a rage-worthy moment right there. EA programming at its finest.
Would be better to understand the actual force on the stick on stick contact and how much it physically prevents the other stick from moving (or not) but right now we handle it black and white that if there is contact, it is contact. In a lot of cases, it helps to reward good body position but there are cases like this one that can be weak for sure.
Thank you for the explanation. Still a pretty hard pill to swallow, but at least I can understand the mechanisms at play.
Is it safe to say there's more forgiveness for players that already have possession of the puck compared to being in a puck pick-up? There's plenty of stick-on-stick contact during games where the puck carrier doesn't immediately give up on the puck when he loses control ( if he does at all ).
Is that something frostbite would handle better?
These “pickup windows” are borderline game-breaking. It’s not like he’s getting stick-lifted, he has good body position and realistically when it comes to playing on a controller, you are expecting to pick that puck up. It’s not like real-life where I know my stick was hit and resort to using my skate to pick the puck up...I have to rely on your animation to grab me the puck so these situations need work desperately. These are the goals that will end all 6 players’ nights. This has been the EASHL experience for four straight years now, and it’s the reason the club community is almost gone.
These situations seemed to have occurred ever since TPS, if not, at least since the introduction of “seamless” puck pickups so will there ever be a remedy to this situation? What other scenarios are you seeing that make these pickups act like this? I know you guysa are smart guys, so I know there’s a logical reason for these to act like this, I just want to know what those are so our community could possibly suggest compromises.
At the end of the day, your beta played great and losses didn’t stop teams from playing. 1.03 has reintroduced the 1-loss your off mentality and it’s obviously not a sustainable trend when it comes to keeping your game alive. It’s been a problem since the next-gen and I hope it gets solved soon as this game has been missing a strong community since NHL 12 really...
If your saying outcome is not ideal what can you say about these goals - these are some real bad rebounds from the boards and in... can this be addressed somehow ?
lol
There are conditions where if a defenders stick goes through body geometry first , we don't register the stick on stick contact that follows though as the stick wouldn't have physically been able to get there. That could be happening at times you don't see stick on stick registering puck loss. Hard to say without seeing the scenario though.
He also doesn't actually give up the puck, it looks that way due to the animation blend. He is blending into skating which in this case, the animation happens to have his stick out to the side but if he were to solve a new pickup, it would blend from that state. I have seen just as many people speak to times that a puck carrier lose the puck and picks it right back up. As we look at plays in slow motion though and dissect the animations and translate that into player intention like we would real world players, it is possible for them to look more like they have given up or don't care as there aren't always animations that match each context and it takes solving a new pickup to go after the puck again in this case. If he was turning the other direction, it may have looked more on point as the skating animation would have had the stick in a different position.
Thanks again. I think I get the mechanics. It's just hard to reconcile the above clip where at the slightest incidental contact my player completely gives up on trying to get that puck with other situations where players are able to drag their stick though a defenders stick or even get poked checked and seemingly never lose control of the puck.
And frankly any loss of control where the puck carrier instantaneously regains control is ( from a player perspective, not mechanically ) essentially no loss of control.
Take this clip for example. The puck carrier drags his stick right through mine with no loss of control at all. I suppose it's possible my stick blade touched his foot briefly just before the start of the clip but as a player I have no control over that. I put myself in position where I know he needs to drag that puck though me or my stick to get to his forehand, but when he does it there's no impact. I don't even necessarily expect the puck to go flying away there, but there should at least be some kind of momentary puck loss. Make the offensive player regain control and buy some time for my backcheckers. But it's like I'm not even there. This kind of thing happens multiple times per game.
Or this one where I poke right though his stick and the puck. Nothing.
Yes, I believe in those cases, it is because you hit the skate first and the leg first so it doesn't allow the future contact for the blackout frames after that contact, simulating that your stick would have been blocked/pushed away by the skate or leg and you would have to reach again to get the puck.
You are able to get away with those levels of contact without causing a trip with the current logic as well as you would need to get more of the leg with a poke and/or with the DSS, outside inwards won't cause a trip on one leg and from the front, just getting blade on a single skate won't trip either but it will block your ability to get to the stick or puck if you hit that geometry first.
For your first clip. I think that’s what a lot people take slashes. Why can that happen without a consequence but a stick lift from the position is a penalty.
Second clip- Typical. Ever have a good poke check where the puck barley ever moves away from the player with possession?
There’s no such thing as defense in this series.
What's causing this? Is this an attribute thing or just a bug in detecting contact?
I believe defense exists in it's purest form ever in this series. DSS and the changes to skating allow you to contain players with far more success than in previous years.
Sure, there are things that happen that make it seem like Defense is crippled - but I believe this is attributed to player ratings and individual attributes on certain ratings. I don't feel player attributes are being considered when bringing up some 'issues' people see in this game.
I think that although in some cases the game 'looks' like it's doing a bad thing - it's simply a visual hiccup but the actual gameplay plays out the way it's supposed to. Some wonky animations during defending scenarios are good examples.
But lets be honest, thats boring compared to crushing some dude or well placed poke that leads to a break away (only because the rest of the opposing team that is rushing to get into the play is out of position defensively on the turnover). Just need a happy medium
but there's too much inconsistency on defense. if you skate right into me and i choose to poke you, you should always lose the puck (unless some nasty deke moves the puck and stick out of the way) and it should never be a trip...ever. or at least, like in this video, the stick on stick contact should disrupt it a little bit.
So in cases like the ones in the video where it doesn’t cause a trip but there is still body contact with the stick first before the puck carriers stick or puck, we ignore the future contact for those frames and you don’t get incidental stick on stick puck loss or puck collisions with that defensive stick that “wouldn’t have been able to get there”.
The second one is slight leg contact with the shaft and obviously these videos were posted because it is more subtle than other cases but the rule is black and white right now that if you touch geo first it hits that logic.
The problem with the kind of play in the first clip is that I'm not using DSS or poke-checking there. The offensive player pulls his stick right through mine with no loss of control because he skated into my stick with his foot first. He's essentially rewarded for skating directly at me while I have no control over where my stick blade is in that situation. That's a far cry from the kind of plays people were complaining about earlier in the year where an out-of-position defender could gain the advantage of incidental contact by just ghosting his stick through the offensive player. I'm sure it's not an easy distinction to make from a coding perspective, but from a player perspective it's night and day.
There's also plays like this one from last night or the night before ( pre latest patch ). My partner goes for a ( probably unwise but that's beside the point ) hit on the puck carrier. The first point of contact is stick-on-stick but again there is no loss of control. At least not until their feet get caught up, but the offensive player is able to easily recover. Is there no loss of control on the incidental contact there because the defending player was in a hitting animation?
In general I just think it becomes frustrating as a defender never really knowing if the incidental contact is going to be successful or not. Ideally we shouldn't need to go into a frame-by-frame replay to figure out why a puck came loose or didn't. It should look and feel organic.
I said it previously in a post on another thread, but I'm really starting to wonder if it would be better if sticks and legs behaved as solid objects. I know we've been told that it's "not fun" to play that way and I know it would probably be a massive amount of work, but the current state of band-aids on top of band-aids all trying to deal with the fact that they don't behave as solid objects is becoming frustrating.
Stick lift in its entirety makes no sense....to the degree that Ive remapped the elite controller to avoid it. Some things are beyond tuners.
When you heard of people from EA reference sticks being live as not being fun was in reference to what we already have on right now. Before NHL 13, incidental stick contact didn't cause puck loss and players could just skate right through players all the time.
To make body position matter as we started to fix the balance between offense and defense, we turned it on and have since added new logic around it based on some of the things we have discussed to try and improve it. I get that you see those as band aids to having the stick fully in physics but they are good overall for game balance.
Adding in the stick to physics at all times, wouldn't cause problems with 'fun' in terms of puck loss, etc., it would cause problems with simply moving your player around as the intricate pieces of how you could relax a wrist/arm to allow yourself to drag your stick through, etc. is really hard to simulate and get right. Ultimately, we would like to have that but until we have a system that could properly handle all those subtle pieces, it is better to wait to add in.