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Dear Dev’s: A week after the patch we’re wondering about the tuner?

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  • Nuckles37 wrote: »
    Nuckles37 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Nuckles37 wrote: »
    The last patch had zero gameplay changes (except to fix a couple of bugs) according to the notes. The last time they made changes to the gameplay was a month and a half ago which is beyond ridiculous considering how bad the game is currently.
    This is where everyone assumes if we made changes it would be what they are after.

    The post you had written before that documented the analysis from LG regarding scoring being down had a lot of comments around stifling defense. Other players were still saying at the time that penalties were far too high and others felt that they were learning how to adapt and having a lot of success on defense.

    Right now, some players want us to roll back the changes to low relative speed hits from behind that were easily stumbling players and knocking them off the puck. This would only make it harder for offensive players that get space and beat their man to retain control of the puck like it was before. Personally, I liked the way the game played then and thought offense had to work a bit harder to move the puck but I also think that defense can work harder now to stay goal side in good position so that the puck has to move through them on the way to the net.

    Were you hoping we would turn off incidental stick on stick and body contact in general instead rather than focus on isolated areas where the defense shouldn't have as much of advantage (i.e. when beat)?

    With all the things that need adjusting in this game, yes, I think turning off the incidental contact is the easiest and most effective short-term fix for this game. Skating into someone (without hitting, poking, or stick lifting) is the safest and most effective way to take the puck away and that's a problem. I can't see EA spending the time needed to properly balance the gameplay for NHL 19 since I imagine most of the focus is on NHL 20 right now. And this is just a guess for me, for all I know it could make almost no difference, I'm sure you guys can easily test this at the studio.

    Keep in mind my opinions are mostly about EASHL 6's where there are 10 skaters being controlled at once, not HUT/VS where it's two skaters being controlled at once. I only play defense in 6's, and have done so since NHL 09, and I find the overall offense/defense (and goaltending) balance in this game to be pretty...unbalanced to put it nicely. It feels like the game doesn't reward good play, and 90% of games are decided by random bounces. And I'm not alone in thinking this, a lot of people in LG feel the same way. A shocking number of people who used to play EASHL/club religiously in their spare time don't even touch it anymore because it's just not enjoyable.

    Turning defenders into holograms doesn't solve anything except reverting this game back to dark ages.

    The game does not appropriately reward good play, you are correct, but skating into the other teams defenders isn't good play, and should also not be rewarded by letting you keep the puck. Pass it or chip it to open space, pick a big player build and try to power your way through, pick a dangler and go around them, or just throw a puck on net.

    I agree 6's feels crowded. That isn't because defenders actually impact play now, it's because it is actually crowded. With server lag and the lack of fidelity in controls, it will always feel croweded, they need a slightly bigger ice surface, or slightly smaller player scale. Or play 3's, at least that still has a little bit of fun in it.

    The problem isn't the puck carrier skating directly into defenders and losing the puck, it's that the puck carrier has lower speed (due to the speed penalty while having the puck) so that defenders can catch them quickly, and the defending team playing the trap can easily surround the puck carrier when they try to enter the offensive zone.

    Like I said, a lot the aspects of this game need to be adjusted/balanced, and I can guarantee EA won't put the time into fixing it for NHL 19 this late after the release. But it's something I feel like they should test as a short-term fix to make this game somewhat enjoyable, and maybe only implement it for 6's if possible.

    But what you are describing is what happens in real life. That's what the trap does, it makes it difficult to enter the offensive zone or cross the neutral zone. It sucks, everyone hates watching teams trap in real life, but they do it because it works. Especially if you don't know how to beat it. Trapping at the blue line can be beaten by dumping the puck in while they are standing flat-footed. You can try to get 1 on 1 with a defender and deke around him, you can try to bait players to your side and pass off to an open man, you can try to power your way through with a big power forward, you can skate up to the blue line, stop, then pass back to a player with a full head of steam cruising through the neutral zone. There are actual legitimate strategies to get around it.

    As far as being caught from behind, that's also a thing that happens. Ron Hainsey isn't ever going to catch Connor on a breakaway, but you better believe Kris Letang could catch up to someone on a breakaway against. If you are getting caught up to, you have to adapt. Fire off a shot and hope you snipe it or the goalie flubs it. Peel away and look for a pass. Protect the puck with your body and try to draw a penalty.

    Your issues should all be solved by different strategies, not making the other team go away. Adding in the incidental stick contact so that a defender's body positioning actually matters is the greates stride made on the defensive side of the game. More so than the skating and moreso than the defensive skill stick. Changing it back would be a terrible mistake.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Please don't ever turn off the incidental stick on stick or stick on leg contact again. That's been one of the best changes in this series. (Assuming I understand what you are talking about, where a puck carrier will lose a puck when trying to drag it through a defender).
    Ya, it was just to gauge where Nuckles stood when he referred to game balance. Since I knew from his post a while back that he felt that defense was overly favored this year, I wanted to be clear when he was in a thread where everyone at a high level wanted us to tune the game, that not everyone was aligned.

    Many want the tuning rolled back where it was easier for defenders to knock players off the puck from behind and he is looking to nerf defenders further.

    Just an interesting example of what I see often where on the surface it sometimes feels like everyone is in alignment but it isn't the case when you get into the details.

    Thanks for the reply, and I'm happy to see we are on the same page on this. I see your point, and it must be difficult to try and decide if a player's complaint is valid, or if it means they need to adjust their playstyle or any other number of possible scenarios.
  • Nxckles
    92 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    But what you are describing is what happens in real life. That's what the trap does, it makes it difficult to enter the offensive zone or cross the neutral zone. It sucks, everyone hates watching teams trap in real life, but they do it because it works. Especially if you don't know how to beat it. Trapping at the blue line can be beaten by dumping the puck in while they are standing flat-footed. You can try to get 1 on 1 with a defender and deke around him, you can try to bait players to your side and pass off to an open man, you can try to power your way through with a big power forward, you can skate up to the blue line, stop, then pass back to a player with a full head of steam cruising through the neutral zone. There are actual legitimate strategies to get around it.

    As far as being caught from behind, that's also a thing that happens. Ron Hainsey isn't ever going to catch Connor on a breakaway, but you better believe Kris Letang could catch up to someone on a breakaway against. If you are getting caught up to, you have to adapt. Fire off a shot and hope you snipe it or the goalie flubs it. Peel away and look for a pass. Protect the puck with your body and try to draw a penalty.

    Your issues should all be solved by different strategies, not making the other team go away. Adding in the incidental stick contact so that a defender's body positioning actually matters is the greates stride made on the defensive side of the game. More so than the skating and moreso than the defensive skill stick. Changing it back would be a terrible mistake.

    Dump and chase isn't as effective as you'd hope in this game in 6's, defenders can easily turn around and skate at full speed pretty quickly to get the puck. 1-on-1 dekes don't really work because of incidental contact and deking in general not being very good in this game. Big power forward doesn't work because you can skate into their stick and they lose the puck because of incidental contact and they are slow. Pass back is pretty much the only effective way to beat the trap in 6's against a decent team, but it doesn't work as often as you'd like when you have 5 guys sitting on the blue line and able to reach full speed pretty quickly.

    This topic has been beaten to death and is a frustrating part of the game in a 6's league filled with very competent players.

    Speed needs to bumped up a decent amount and acceleration lowered (when not moving/standing still). Kind of unrelated, but pivoting speed needs a bit of a bump as well in my opinion, it feels kind of a bit slow.
    Post edited by Nxckles on
  • OvenMitts91
    69 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    The issue wasn’t the bumps from behind, it was the fact that when you beat someone with speed and got bumped from behind the puck defied physics and went backward or completely stopped in its tracks.
    Post edited by OvenMitts91 on
  • The issue wasn’t the bumps from behind, it was the fact that when you beat someone with speed and got bumped from behind the puck defied physics and went backward or completely stopped in its tracks.

    At least I’m not the only one who thought this.
  • Why is it that we had quite a few tuners when the game came out but when gotten one in almost two months which the most of the community despises. We want NHL 19 with a few tweaks like the bump from behind, not to have NHL 18 again.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    Why is it that we had quite a few tuners when the game came out but when gotten one in almost two months which the most of the community despises. We want NHL 19 with a few tweaks like the bump from behind, not to have NHL 18 again.

    It is always interesting to align on what few tweaks you would keep. Looking at it the other way though, in terms of what would occur if we rolled back the changes from the tuning we did, how many of these would you want to execute, which would essentially be rolling back a line in the tuner?

    - AI players aggression should be turned back up in Online VS and HUT
    - AI should perform more defensive actions in Online VS and HUT
    - AI goalie should react quicker to passes
    - AI goalie should be able to react quicker to get back on a second pass on give and gos
    - AI goalie passing should have more assist, possibly passing to players in the slot if you aim behind the net
    - Bumps at low relative speed from behind should have a bigger effect on players
    - You should be able to get away with stick lifting through a players body without a call
    - Loose puck deke success rate should be turned back down
    - Players should drop their sticks sometimes
    - AI goalies should come out of the puck to play the puck more often when the opposition is near
    - AI players should put the puck over the glass more often in EASHL
    - Poke checks should need to get less of a piece of the player to cause them to trip
    - Pokechecks should be less accurate when poking to ideal angles
    - User goalie transitions to hug post should be less consistent
    - Player stamina should decrease slower so that you can play most games with your 1st and 2nd line only
    - Decrease the speed of forehand stick lift faceoff wins
    - Increase injury lengths in EASHL

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    Why is it that we had quite a few tuners when the game came out but when gotten one in almost two months which the most of the community despises. We want NHL 19 with a few tweaks like the bump from behind, not to have NHL 18 again.

    It is always interesting to align on what few tweaks you would keep. Looking at it the other way though, in terms of what would occur if we rolled back the changes from the tuning we did, how many of these would you want to execute, which would essentially be rolling back a line in the tuner?

    - AI players aggression should be turned back up in Online VS and HUT
    - AI should perform more defensive actions in Online VS and HUT
    - AI goalie should react quicker to passes
    - AI goalie should be able to react quicker to get back on a second pass on give and gos
    - AI goalie passing should have more assist, possibly passing to players in the slot if you aim behind the net
    - Bumps at low relative speed from behind should have a bigger effect on players
    - You should be able to get away with stick lifting through a players body without a call
    - Loose puck deke success rate should be turned back down
    - Players should drop their sticks sometimes
    - AI goalies should come out of the puck to play the puck more often when the opposition is near
    - AI players should put the puck over the glass more often in EASHL
    - Poke checks should need to get less of a piece of the player to cause them to trip
    - Pokechecks should be less accurate when poking to ideal angles
    - User goalie transitions to hug post should be less consistent
    - Player stamina should decrease slower so that you can play most games with your 1st and 2nd line only
    - Decrease the speed of forehand stick lift faceoff wins
    - Increase injury lengths in EASHL

    Something about goalies stopping the same abused breawakay move and short side snipes. Maybe there was a negative affect on the goalie change.

    The bump from behind was only because you can beat the defender in open ice and he just just to stick his arms out to knock off the puck. Along the boards should be different because if you watch NHL games, dman essentiality throw/push forwards to the boards if they’re next to them to help get them to go off balence.

    Before the hitting change, players who skate with arms up chasing people for taps from behind in hopes of losing the puck. You don’t see this in the real world NHL.
  • johnny2fingaz
    322 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Personally, I liked the way the game played then and thought offense had to work a bit harder to move the puck
  • Where is this special place EA is getting their feedback from? I can't find it at all.

    Across these forums, reddit, youtube, I'm seeing nothing but unhappy customers.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Where is this special place EA is getting their feedback from? I can't find it at all.

    Across these forums, reddit, youtube, I'm seeing nothing but unhappy customers.

    I didn't realize there were happy people anywhere on the internet.
  • RichardDick
    74 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    Why is it that we had quite a few tuners when the game came out but when gotten one in almost two months which the most of the community despises. We want NHL 19 with a few tweaks like the bump from behind, not to have NHL 18 again.

    It is always interesting to align on what few tweaks you would keep. Looking at it the other way though, in terms of what would occur if we rolled back the changes from the tuning we did, how many of these would you want to execute, which would essentially be rolling back a line in the tuner?

    - AI players aggression should be turned back up in Online VS and HUT - Don’t care
    - AI should perform more defensive actions in Online VS and HUT - Don’t care
    - AI goalie should react quicker to passes - Don’t care
    - AI goalie should be able to react quicker to get back on a second pass on give and gos - Don’t care
    - AI goalie passing should have more assist, possibly passing to players in the slot if you aim behind the net - Don’t care


    - Bumps at low relative speed from behind should have a bigger effect on players - Whatever the tuning change on this was, it went too far. The tuning in the beta discouraged hogging the puck and made you pass in order to succeed. Like many have said, the only problem with the bumps from behind was that the puck was not reacting properly.


    - You should be able to get away with stick lifting through a players body without a call - The stick lift animation is atrocious to begin with. It’s unrealistic. I’m not sure how to fix it. It’s pretty broken so I almost never use it.


    - Loose puck deke success rate should be turned back down - Yes Please



    - Players should drop their sticks sometimes - Not in EASHL


    - AI goalies should come out of the puck to play the puck more often when the opposition is near - Don’t care


    - AI players should put the puck over the glass more often in EASHL - This should be based on inputs only, not tuned to happen more or less often


    - Poke checks should need to get less of a piece of the player to cause them to trip - A tripping penalty should only occur when a stick goes between the legs or someone dives at your feet. Other than that just make poles less effective from obviously bad position. There is no reason for a player to fall down from a stick shaft touching the side of their leg


    - Pokechecks should be less accurate when poking to ideal angles - Pokes should be more accurate from ideal angles and should never cause a penalty


    - User goalie transitions to hug post should be less consistent - You’re kidding right?


    - Player stamina should decrease slower so that you can play most games with your 1st and 2nd line only - No


    - Decrease the speed of forehand stick lift faceoff wins - Ambivalent


    - Increase injury lengths in EASHL - No, they are fine

    Replying as a full time EASHL Defenseman.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2018
    Replying as a full time EASHL Defenseman.
    Based on a couple of your responses, I think you may have missed what was meant by those statements.

    Those were written based on the changes that would happen if we rolled back the tuners. So overall it seems you are in agreement with what we have done in the tuners except for a couple changes — you want it to be easier to push players off the puck from behind at low relative speeds again and for it to be harder for offensive players to do loose puck dekes. You would also want us to go even further with the more lenient pokecheck changes, so wouldn’t want those rolled back either — which all don’t surprise me coming from a defenseman
  • RichardDick
    74 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Replying as a full time EASHL Defenseman.
    Based on a couple of your responses, I think you may have missed what was meant by those statements.

    Those were written based on the changes that would happen if we rolled back the tuners. So overall it seems you are in agreement with what we have done in the tuners except for a couple changes — you want it to be easier to push players off the puck from behind at low relative speeds again and for it to be harder for offensive players to do loose puck dekes. You would also want us to go even further with the more lenient pokecheck changes, so wouldn’t want those rolled back either — which all don’t surprise me coming from a defenseman
    Just to be clear, I would take the beta tuner over what we have now, all flaws included. I still do rather well with the trash tools we currently have on defense.

    Right now, the game just doesn’t look or play like actual hockey. The beta had flaws but it rewarded playing hockey, not the current “Dangle, Snipe, Celly.”

    The game has catered to offense for years making defenseman play like mobile pylons to be effective. Not in the beta.

    Puck carriers are still more agile than a defenseman without the puck. The tools to deal with players in front of the net are novel at best (they only work when the forward isn’t moving). Hitting in it’s current state is terrible. It’s basically all or nothing. Poke checking in hockey is almost constant in close. Sticks are constantly hitting legs, skates and sticks yet players manage stay on their feet. Even when you make a perfect poke, half the time the puck goes 2 feet and the forward picks it right back up.

    Call my response biased all you want. I just want a balanced game in terms of offense/defense. Based on almost all the posts recently I’m not alone.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    EpiCxOwNeD wrote: »
    Why is it that we had quite a few tuners when the game came out but when gotten one in almost two months which the most of the community despises. We want NHL 19 with a few tweaks like the bump from behind, not to have NHL 18 again.

    It is always interesting to align on what few tweaks you would keep. Looking at it the other way though, in terms of what would occur if we rolled back the changes from the tuning we did, how many of these would you want to execute, which would essentially be rolling back a line in the tuner?

    - AI players aggression should be turned back up in Online VS and HUT
    - AI should perform more defensive actions in Online VS and HUT
    - AI goalie should react quicker to passes
    - AI goalie should be able to react quicker to get back on a second pass on give and gos
    - AI goalie passing should have more assist, possibly passing to players in the slot if you aim behind the net
    - Bumps at low relative speed from behind should have a bigger effect on players
    - You should be able to get away with stick lifting through a players body without a call
    - Loose puck deke success rate should be turned back down
    - Players should drop their sticks sometimes
    - AI goalies should come out of the puck to play the puck more often when the opposition is near
    - AI players should put the puck over the glass more often in EASHL
    - Poke checks should need to get less of a piece of the player to cause them to trip
    - Pokechecks should be less accurate when poking to ideal angles
    - User goalie transitions to hug post should be less consistent
    - Player stamina should decrease slower so that you can play most games with your 1st and 2nd line only
    - Decrease the speed of forehand stick lift faceoff wins
    - Increase injury lengths in EASHL

    Eashl-
    AI defense seems overly aggressive. Passing so precise. Stick work is very good. They have the ability to take over 3s games eashl. We wont even match with a club using AI.
  • Idk if this would be possible but can the AI goalies be tuned to learn tendencies in shooters? Either in-game or across all online gameplay, so that players are forced to change and adapt how they attempt to score?
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    It is always interesting to align on what few tweaks you would keep. Looking at it the other way though, in terms of what would occur if we rolled back the changes from the tuning we did, how many of these would you want to execute, which would essentially be rolling back a line in the tuner?

    - AI players aggression should be turned back up in Online VS and HUT
    YES
    - AI should perform more defensive actions in Online VS and HUT
    YES
    - AI goalie should react quicker to passes
    Just a little bit
    - AI goalie should be able to react quicker to get back on a second pass on give and gos
    Just a little bit or no
    - AI goalie passing should have more assist, possibly passing to players in the slot if you aim behind the net
    No
    - Bumps at low relative speed from behind should have a bigger effect on players
    It's more complicated than a simple yes or no.

    The problem with the 1.00 tuner was you'd have a defender beat and they'd nudge you from behind and you'd lose the puck, but the puck physics is broken (and has been for this entire console generation), so the puck would end up behind you where the defender gets it, instead of the puck continuing it's forward momemtum as it should. If you puck physics were correct, you'd still be between the defender and the puck and likely regain it.

    The problem with the current tuner is that raggers abuse it. They turn away from you at low speed, making themselves nearly invincible. You usually don't have enough momemtum to hit them hard enough to jar the puck free.

    Ideally, you'd fix the puck physics and restore the 1.00 tuner behavior for low speed hits from behind. I don't know how practical messing with the physics mid-year is though.
    - You should be able to get away with stick lifting through a players body without a call
    NO
    - Loose puck deke success rate should be turned back down
    No
    - Players should drop their sticks sometimes
    ABSOLUTELY NOT
    - AI goalies should come out of the puck to play the puck more often when the opposition is near
    No opinion
    - AI players should put the puck over the glass more often in EASHL
    NO!!! Especially not in EASHL 3s where it means a penalty shot.
    - Poke checks should need to get less of a piece of the player to cause them to trip
    No, tripping for poke checks is just right now.
    - Pokechecks should be less accurate when poking to ideal angles
    No
    - User goalie transitions to hug post should be less consistent
    Don't care... I don't generally play with user goalies
    - Player stamina should decrease slower so that you can play most games with your 1st and 2nd line only
    NO
    - Decrease the speed of forehand stick lift faceoff wins
    No opinion
    - Increase injury lengths in EASHL
    No

    I'm speaking as an EASHL 3s and HUT player.
  • Sgt_Kelso
    1325 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    NHLDev wrote: »
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Where is this special place EA is getting their feedback from? I can't find it at all.

    Across these forums, reddit, youtube, I'm seeing nothing but unhappy customers.

    I didn't realize there were happy people anywhere on the internet.

    I think you're joking, but if you read this forum around beta and release there were a lot of happy players hoping that the game wouldn't be tuned to heck... and guess what happened? You reap what you sow kinda. It's no use being salty about it, since EA blew all on its own.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    ExSnake01 wrote: »
    Where is this special place EA is getting their feedback from? I can't find it at all.

    Across these forums, reddit, youtube, I'm seeing nothing but unhappy customers.

    I didn't realize there were happy people anywhere on the internet.

    Lmao.... Gotta give you credit. That was funny
  • I wouldn't even bother coming here as often as Ben does. He has my respect. He opens himself up to the firing squad coming here. And it's twice as annoying when people twist his words to fit into their own agenda. It's sad really, the fact that he has to say the same thing over and over but worded differently because people can't grasp the premise of what he is trying to say.
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