Bottom line there are too many tripping penalties called. It’s not realistic to the game. Why don’t they call a holding on every play in madden or passing interference. The hitting in the Beta is better but the skating is still very sluggish and tripping penalties are going to prevent me from buying the next copy of this game and I’m not spamming. A light touch can’t make someone go down like they were shot
Bottom line there are too many tripping penalties called. It’s not realistic to the game.
The way the animations play out, the realism factor can be debated.
However, the number of tripping penalties directly correlates with how careless you are with the poke checking mechanic. Tripping is a check and balance on the tool so that it's not abused.
Really need to fix the stick tripping issues...maybe if someone from EA would actually watch a hockey game, maybe they might understand that sticks don't cause trips nearly as much as they think they do.
And they don't if you do it right. If you learned to utilize the mechanic correctly, you wouldn't take so many tripping calls. It's a case of user error.
Exactly.
People think EA literally believes that the blade of a stick touching a skate causes a trip in real life.
What people need to understand is that the trip on a poke check is there to maintain balance. They don't want people spamming the poke check and introducing penalties was likely the only way stop that without making significant changes to poke check that may or may not have gimped the mechanic altogether.
Why risk gimping a mechanic that works well when you can simply introduce a penalty for abuse.
It may not 'look' real when you guys slip in to instant replay and analyze every polygon of stick/player contact - but in the context of a free and fast-flowing game, EA nailed what they were going for: balance.
There are other ways to penalize a "bad" poke that would improve overall game flow.
For example, say you are using your DSS to angle towards a player trying to cut alongside you. Your stick touches his outside leg. In real life, your stick would either just stop there or may bounce back towards you. The player continues on his path because his leg blocks and absorbs the contact.
How about instead of getting a tripping penalty, our stick just bounces back the opposite way? It would take your stick out of the play for one second or so and it is fair as it was a very low success rate move in the first place.
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
September 19th @ 2am PST - Tuner 1.01
Poke checks now need to get a slightly larger piece of the player to cause them to trip
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
September 19th @ 2am PST - Tuner 1.01
Poke checks now need to get a slightly larger piece of the player to cause them to trip
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
It isn't really relevant to what I am suggesting though. I am talking no penalties so this is not the same thing. Penalize stick positioning, or use of that said stick instead of tripping up a player.
Case in point, 1.03 does nothing to what I am suggesting. My suggestion has nothing to do with any tuner.
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
September 19th @ 2am PST - Tuner 1.01
Poke checks now need to get a slightly larger piece of the player to cause them to trip
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
It isn't really relevant to what I am suggesting though. I am talking no penalties so this is not the same thing. Penalize stick positioning, or use of that said stick instead of tripping up a player.
Case in point, 1.03 does nothing to what I am suggesting. My suggestion has nothing to do with any tuner.
If you only 'penalize' poke check abusers by deflecting their sticks and making them ineffective,, there's a chance then that the poke check mechanic gets spammed even more so that the users gets the desirable outcome.
If players are only getting their sticks rendered ineffective - they will spam the input until it becomes effective. Then a meta is born where defenders just need to spam and swing DSS until they get what they want.
Without the potential for going down a player when abusing poke check hanging over the heads of players, I believe that spamming it would become the new norm resulting in unrealistic defense.
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
September 19th @ 2am PST - Tuner 1.01
Poke checks now need to get a slightly larger piece of the player to cause them to trip
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
It isn't really relevant to what I am suggesting though. I am talking no penalties so this is not the same thing. Penalize stick positioning, or use of that said stick instead of tripping up a player.
Case in point, 1.03 does nothing to what I am suggesting. My suggestion has nothing to do with any tuner.
If you only 'penalize' poke check abusers by deflecting their sticks and making them ineffective,, there's a chance then that the poke check mechanic gets spammed even more so that the users gets the desirable outcome.
If players are only getting their sticks rendered ineffective - they will spam the input until it becomes effective. Then a meta is born where defenders just need to spam and swing DSS until they get what they want.
Without the potential for going down a player when abusing poke check hanging over the heads of players, I believe that spamming it would become the new norm resulting in unrealistic defense.
All I am saying is there are surely other options available instead of penalties all the time. Sure, it would require time and resources, but hey, with the power of consoles now, we are at that point. Things don't need to be as black and white as they were 10 years ago. The flow of the game is important too.
While I can appreciate the desire to keep spamming down I believer a better solution would be a small pie success rate, a small pie penalty range, and a large pie for ineffectiveness. An outstretched poke should take time, and leave the player a little off balance (most of the time). I think if done right this can deter spam while not providing the ridiculous amount of penalties it does not. Being on the pp or pk almost all of the game is annoying.
I guess what I’m saying is the punishment feels pretty stiff for the crime. Definitely altering the flow of the game negatively.
That said, if I have to trade the current behavior of stick lift, for the poke...I’d make that deal in a heartbeat. Living with a umm precise! Poke is feasible. Not being able to battle for the puck with checks and stick lifts..not so much!
All Comments pertain to 6v6 drop in unless otherwise stated..
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
September 19th @ 2am PST - Tuner 1.01
Poke checks now need to get a slightly larger piece of the player to cause them to trip
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
It isn't really relevant to what I am suggesting though. I am talking no penalties so this is not the same thing. Penalize stick positioning, or use of that said stick instead of tripping up a player.
Case in point, 1.03 does nothing to what I am suggesting. My suggestion has nothing to do with any tuner.
If you only 'penalize' poke check abusers by deflecting their sticks and making them ineffective,, there's a chance then that the poke check mechanic gets spammed even more so that the users gets the desirable outcome.
If players are only getting their sticks rendered ineffective - they will spam the input until it becomes effective. Then a meta is born where defenders just need to spam and swing DSS until they get what they want.
Without the potential for going down a player when abusing poke check hanging over the heads of players, I believe that spamming it would become the new norm resulting in unrealistic defense.
All I am saying is there are surely other options available instead of penalties all the time. Sure, it would require time and resources, but hey, with the power of consoles now, we are at that point. Things don't need to be as black and white as they were 10 years ago. The flow of the game is important too.
We do have those mechanics and we reward the manual play with the DSS even more as well as it shows control.
With DSS, we don't trigger the actual physical response with the stick but we have penalty mechanics that replicate that intent. It would be great if we could handle it in physics perfectly but that is a bigger feat that will take some breakthroughs to get right without taking away some control that is currently there that shouldn't be lost.
If you use DSS and you sweep outside to in on one leg, the shaft of the stick won't cause a penalty. It will negate the future contact after that collision for stick on stick or stick on puck since the stick couldn't have physically got there but because we also are also looking at it that way, we don't trigger a trip either.
If you swipe right through both legs, showing no control, you will get a trip and if you swipe inside out on the single leg it will cause a trip. But if you are showing control, trying to take a lane away and reach in to put pressure on the puck carrier, you have way more control over the scenario and won't be taking penalties if you stay controlled.
If the player cuts in on you and has the full angle, you do have to let go of DSS as if to mimic, releasing tension on your stick and not holding to take their legs out and on the blend out, any contact with the stick and legs that happen shouldn't cause a trip either as again, it replicates that you weren't firm and holding with intent to impede the player.
As Kid mentions, the poke also got more lenient in later tuners to ensure you needed a bit more contact before it would be a trip using some of the same principles but because it is a more aggressive mechanic, we didn't give it the same leniency that we did with the DSS as you are making a more forceful play towards the puck and more likely to impact a stride.
There are pieces that could be more realistic for sure but we are taking a lot of the pieces you mention into account to balance the mechanics, reward manual defense and give players tools they can learn the pros and cons of as they make choices in how they want to defend per scenario.
I can steal one of Kid's clips from the other thread where it shows one example of this:
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
September 19th @ 2am PST - Tuner 1.01
Poke checks now need to get a slightly larger piece of the player to cause them to trip
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
It isn't really relevant to what I am suggesting though. I am talking no penalties so this is not the same thing. Penalize stick positioning, or use of that said stick instead of tripping up a player.
Case in point, 1.03 does nothing to what I am suggesting. My suggestion has nothing to do with any tuner.
If you only 'penalize' poke check abusers by deflecting their sticks and making them ineffective,, there's a chance then that the poke check mechanic gets spammed even more so that the users gets the desirable outcome.
If players are only getting their sticks rendered ineffective - they will spam the input until it becomes effective. Then a meta is born where defenders just need to spam and swing DSS until they get what they want.
Without the potential for going down a player when abusing poke check hanging over the heads of players, I believe that spamming it would become the new norm resulting in unrealistic defense.
All I am saying is there are surely other options available instead of penalties all the time. Sure, it would require time and resources, but hey, with the power of consoles now, we are at that point. Things don't need to be as black and white as they were 10 years ago. The flow of the game is important too.
We do have those mechanics and we reward the manual play with the DSS even more as well as it shows control.
With DSS, we don't trigger the actual physical response with the stick but we have penalty mechanics that replicate that intent. It would be great if we could handle it in physics perfectly but that is a bigger feat that will take some breakthroughs to get right without taking away some control that is currently there that shouldn't be lost.
If you use DSS and you sweep outside to in on one leg, the shaft of the stick won't cause a penalty. It will negate the future contact after that collision for stick on stick or stick on puck since the stick couldn't have physically got there but because we also are also looking at it that way, we don't trigger a trip either.
If you swipe right through both legs, showing no control, you will get a trip and if you swipe inside out on the single leg it will cause a trip. But if you are showing control, trying to take a lane away and reach in to put pressure on the puck carrier, you have way more control over the scenario and won't be taking penalties if you stay controlled.
If the player cuts in on you and has the full angle, you do have to let go of DSS as if to mimic, releasing tension on your stick and not holding to take their legs out and on the blend out, any contact with the stick and legs that happen shouldn't cause a trip either as again, it replicates that you weren't firm and holding with intent to impede the player.
As Kid mentions, the poke also got more lenient in later tuners to ensure you needed a bit more contact before it would be a trip using some of the same principles but because it is a more aggressive mechanic, we didn't give it the same leniency that we did with the DSS as you are making a more forceful play towards the puck and more likely to impact a stride.
There are pieces that could be more realistic for sure but we are taking a lot of the pieces you mention into account to balance the mechanics, reward manual defense and give players tools they can learn the pros and cons of as they make choices in how they want to defend per scenario.
I can steal one of Kid's clips from the other thread where it shows one example of this:
Ok, thanks for the insight. Pretty much coincides with what I am talking about.
However, I think it would be more organic and keep the flow of the game up if the attacker, in the clip you provided, could just push the defender's stick out of the way with his leg using momentum. If the defender does not pull his stick back, then he can't use it for the time it takes for the stick to go backwards from the momentum, to the time it takes to swing it back into a position that it becomes useful. There is no tripping penalty, but the defender is "penalized" for a short time for not pulling his stick back. There are times where carriers curl and cut their way into your stick faster than you can react and blend out of your DSS positioning.
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
September 19th @ 2am PST - Tuner 1.01
Poke checks now need to get a slightly larger piece of the player to cause them to trip
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
It isn't really relevant to what I am suggesting though. I am talking no penalties so this is not the same thing. Penalize stick positioning, or use of that said stick instead of tripping up a player.
Case in point, 1.03 does nothing to what I am suggesting. My suggestion has nothing to do with any tuner.
If you only 'penalize' poke check abusers by deflecting their sticks and making them ineffective,, there's a chance then that the poke check mechanic gets spammed even more so that the users gets the desirable outcome.
If players are only getting their sticks rendered ineffective - they will spam the input until it becomes effective. Then a meta is born where defenders just need to spam and swing DSS until they get what they want.
Without the potential for going down a player when abusing poke check hanging over the heads of players, I believe that spamming it would become the new norm resulting in unrealistic defense.
To be clear, I am not talking about poke checks. I am talking strictly about the DSS being held out and a carrier cuts into it. It should just push your stick out of the way and negate it. Until you pull your stick back, that carrier's body is holding your stick out of angle rendering it useless with his body.
Replies
The way the animations play out, the realism factor can be debated.
However, the number of tripping penalties directly correlates with how careless you are with the poke checking mechanic. Tripping is a check and balance on the tool so that it's not abused.
There are other ways to penalize a "bad" poke that would improve overall game flow.
For example, say you are using your DSS to angle towards a player trying to cut alongside you. Your stick touches his outside leg. In real life, your stick would either just stop there or may bounce back towards you. The player continues on his path because his leg blocks and absorbs the contact.
How about instead of getting a tripping penalty, our stick just bounces back the opposite way? It would take your stick out of the play for one second or so and it is fair as it was a very low success rate move in the first place.
If your DSS is already in front of you and a carrier cuts very close to you, his legs should just push your stick out of the way because you have poor body positioning in the first place. Again, there is no need to have a tripping call because a carrier bullied his way through the shaft of your stick.
This was somewhat addressed in 1.02. But of course, this improvement has been rolled back for now.
I say 'somewhat' because I am unsure if the wording on this intends to include DSS or if it's referring to just the static poke check.
It isn't really relevant to what I am suggesting though. I am talking no penalties so this is not the same thing. Penalize stick positioning, or use of that said stick instead of tripping up a player.
Case in point, 1.03 does nothing to what I am suggesting. My suggestion has nothing to do with any tuner.
If you only 'penalize' poke check abusers by deflecting their sticks and making them ineffective,, there's a chance then that the poke check mechanic gets spammed even more so that the users gets the desirable outcome.
If players are only getting their sticks rendered ineffective - they will spam the input until it becomes effective. Then a meta is born where defenders just need to spam and swing DSS until they get what they want.
Without the potential for going down a player when abusing poke check hanging over the heads of players, I believe that spamming it would become the new norm resulting in unrealistic defense.
All I am saying is there are surely other options available instead of penalties all the time. Sure, it would require time and resources, but hey, with the power of consoles now, we are at that point. Things don't need to be as black and white as they were 10 years ago. The flow of the game is important too.
I guess what I’m saying is the punishment feels pretty stiff for the crime. Definitely altering the flow of the game negatively.
That said, if I have to trade the current behavior of stick lift, for the poke...I’d make that deal in a heartbeat. Living with a umm precise! Poke is feasible. Not being able to battle for the puck with checks and stick lifts..not so much!
We do have those mechanics and we reward the manual play with the DSS even more as well as it shows control.
With DSS, we don't trigger the actual physical response with the stick but we have penalty mechanics that replicate that intent. It would be great if we could handle it in physics perfectly but that is a bigger feat that will take some breakthroughs to get right without taking away some control that is currently there that shouldn't be lost.
If you use DSS and you sweep outside to in on one leg, the shaft of the stick won't cause a penalty. It will negate the future contact after that collision for stick on stick or stick on puck since the stick couldn't have physically got there but because we also are also looking at it that way, we don't trigger a trip either.
If you swipe right through both legs, showing no control, you will get a trip and if you swipe inside out on the single leg it will cause a trip. But if you are showing control, trying to take a lane away and reach in to put pressure on the puck carrier, you have way more control over the scenario and won't be taking penalties if you stay controlled.
If the player cuts in on you and has the full angle, you do have to let go of DSS as if to mimic, releasing tension on your stick and not holding to take their legs out and on the blend out, any contact with the stick and legs that happen shouldn't cause a trip either as again, it replicates that you weren't firm and holding with intent to impede the player.
As Kid mentions, the poke also got more lenient in later tuners to ensure you needed a bit more contact before it would be a trip using some of the same principles but because it is a more aggressive mechanic, we didn't give it the same leniency that we did with the DSS as you are making a more forceful play towards the puck and more likely to impact a stride.
There are pieces that could be more realistic for sure but we are taking a lot of the pieces you mention into account to balance the mechanics, reward manual defense and give players tools they can learn the pros and cons of as they make choices in how they want to defend per scenario.
I can steal one of Kid's clips from the other thread where it shows one example of this:
Ok, thanks for the insight. Pretty much coincides with what I am talking about.
However, I think it would be more organic and keep the flow of the game up if the attacker, in the clip you provided, could just push the defender's stick out of the way with his leg using momentum. If the defender does not pull his stick back, then he can't use it for the time it takes for the stick to go backwards from the momentum, to the time it takes to swing it back into a position that it becomes useful. There is no tripping penalty, but the defender is "penalized" for a short time for not pulling his stick back. There are times where carriers curl and cut their way into your stick faster than you can react and blend out of your DSS positioning.
Does that make sense?
To be clear, I am not talking about poke checks. I am talking strictly about the DSS being held out and a carrier cuts into it. It should just push your stick out of the way and negate it. Until you pull your stick back, that carrier's body is holding your stick out of angle rendering it useless with his body.
Has nothing to do with poke spamming.