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NHL 20 Gameplay Discussion

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  • @EA_Aljo

    So what I'm taking from all of this is again EA saying that the game plays how they intended and that everything we see with our own eyes is wrong. You're basically blaming all of us for these problems.

    Just one question though.... If these are our mistakes and we're imagining all of this, then what is the cause for things getting worse every year and MORE people complaining about it, as well as some that used to vehemently say it didn't exist being converted to now believe the exact opposite. I think it's unfair and a bit of a slap to our faces for you to place the blame on us. We don't make the game, and SOMETHING is going on for people to think this is happening so wouldn't it be on you guys to figure out what is causing people to think that and fix the gameplay so that it feels more "organic" as you put it, and NOT point the blame at your customers?

    You say these things don't exist, and I believe you that they're not programmed in, BUT if that's the case, then there's some serious fundamental flaws to your game code, engine etc, and we give you guys plenty of feedback and info on what we don't like, what we want, and what works. Instead of telling us we are wrong...I implore you to dig deep into your game and yourselves, swallow your pride a bit because guess what? (the customers are supposed to always be right) and make the game play in a way that feels rewarding and natural and most of all... Like actual hockey. That is all we want. I have spoken!

    All due respect, sir.
  • I have been playing the nhl series since 98 and can honestly say this game is getting worse and worse as the years go on. They was on the right path with live the life Now be a pro is so boring it’s a pointless Meade now they only seem to focus on CHEL. For years things haven’t changed like line changes at the worse time, defenceman trying to skate out of the slot with the puck instead of just trying to clear it, the penalties are really bad, goalies still are really bad rebound control has hardly improved. If things don’t improve I’m sure I’m not the only one I won’t purchase future games.

    Trying playing in 6s leagues. It is essentially be a pro but with other actual people. Very organized, full sim league, 32 NHL teams, 3 lines 17 players
    9 Fwds 6D 2G.

    LeagueGaming.com is a good one.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    While I appreciate your response, I somehow get the feeling either I did not express myself clearly enough, or maybe the is some misinterpretation.

    I have stated very clearly I do not believe in ice tilt or any form of DDA. I have stated though that there is something going on, somewhere there is something going on that gives people the perception of ice tilt. I am by no means saying it's in the game, but rather maybe it's somewhere in how the servers are set up, or how connection is different for 2 opponents, whatever. I am by no means saying it is intentional and added into the game purposefully.

    Also, I am not at all talking about how some opponents are downright terrible on D and therefore get obliterated on the scoreboard. That is just common sense and why I didn't talk about it. But since you play the game almost daily, I fail to understand how you have never noticed how one team has very good AI that can literally swarm their opponent while on the other team the AI is passive and does not affect the outcome all that much.

    Also, you mean to tell me you have never been in games where one AI goalie can literally stop 42 shots in a game, including 7-10 cross crease one-timers, while on the other side the AI goalie lets in a weak wrister, unscreened from 45 feet out? I have literally seen in a game where the opponent was a 2 way forward that barely crossed our blue line and he just flung a really weak back handed shot on net and our AI goalie let it sail right by his five hole completely unscreened. I mean, you know, really?? How is that a decent play in any regard, and how is that goal merited in any way? Yes I have been on the other end too where a garbage shot ended up being a goal as well. Still, it leaves the same sour taste in my mouth. Many times I see goals that my team scores and I shake my head telling myself how garbage that was and completely undeserved as a goal.

    And when I say games feel forced and not organic, I am not talking about forcing plays, or constantly tapping your stick and calling for horrible passes from the AI. What I mean is, too many rebound saves go straight to an opponent's stick, or how many successful poke checks yet again go straight to an opponent's stick. Sometimes you will make a somewhat bad pass to a teammate, so instead of picking up the pass it will hit his skates and the puck will deflect to, yes, you guessed it, an opponent's stick. I get it, games are 4 minute periods and we want the game to flow and whatnot. But it doesn't feel organic. It feels fake and cheapens the experience. There are times where physics seem to go out the window for the sake of game flow.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Bad match making, or just people with poor internet or WiFi etc seem to be the cause of most people's perception of DDA/ice tilt, imo.

    If you guys were able to more efficiently deal with cheaters/booters, and move back to p2p, it would probably alleviate a lot of the DDA talk. With servers, there's always someone with the connection advantage, which is what causes the feeling of ice tilt.

    We've been on dedicated servers for about a year now. The ice tilt theory started long before that. Dedicated servers have been a big improvement for most. Especially when you consider IP booting doesn't happen now. Also, WiFi wouldn't make a difference when it comes to P2P vs. dedicated. WiFi is not a stable connection in general so moving to a wired connection would most likely make a big difference.

    I play on a wired connection. Not the fastest, but it's solid. Games always feel the same. There certainly are ones I lost that I shouldn't have, but I can see why every goal happens and where I gave them the chance to score. Whether it be taking a bad penalty or just giving them a shot on net, it was my fault for letting it happen. I recognize how and why they scored and try to watch for patterns in their play. I adjust my strategies accordingly. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. One thing I'm absolutely sure of is that it's my fault and not the game feeling sluggish. Some guys are definitely better at defending and cutting off your lanes. That's going to make you feel more trapped and not give you as much open ice to get up to speed. I also tend to pass a lot so that helps create space and let my players generate more speed. I think it's more about how you play than there being actual sluggishness. Unless you're on a bad connection, but that is normally noticeable lag.

    So you're suggesting both parties are playing 2 different games? My connection is solid, opponent is poor. Maybe they're twice the distance from the server as I am.

    Are you saying that I'm reacting to something they haven't done yet? Or they're playing in the past? Because I was always under the impression that the server has to sync all players so that everyone is seeing the same thing at the same time.

    Please explain to me how that's possible with 2 connections a second apart in latency. Please explain how a slower connection can see the same thing as the faster connection at the same time? Because it doesn't make any sense if they're independant of each other.

    I'm not saying both parties are playing different games. A slower connection doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be sluggish. Unless it's significantly slow and doesn't quite or barely meets the requirements to play which I believe is about 10 MBPS. Distance from the server can make a difference with latency, but you're going to notice if that's the issue as your network performance should show high ping times.

    If you're talking about the "fat man" lag that has been mentioned over the years, I know that's something that has been looked in to and the move to dedicated servers has helped in many cases. It's just not easy to determine why some games for you may feel sluggish. It's never, ever an issue of the game purposely generating sluggish play to make it easier for one player than the other.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Yes, the bad connection doesn’t affect AI. It only make the input delay worst.

    What I found out is that if you have too many synergies activated the AI behaviour changes. They start making more mistakes, don’t intercept puck right in front of them, etc... There’s some weird programming also, like when the AI defenseman go up and leave his player alone in the slot and other little things like that. But really try having a team with no synergies or not many (like under 4) vs a team with 8-9 activated and you will see what I am talking about. It seems like when you have too many activated, the game engine have trouble processing all the boosts during the game. So the Human and the AI have delays in their reactions and miss some puck and all. And there’s also not a lot of difference between attributes, the gap need to be really big to make a difference. This explains why the low overall teams play as good as high overall, they make it that way so that you can’t buy a winning team, it becomes all about thumb skills and/or who is the best glitcher (lol).

    More activated synergies does not force a team to play worse. If low overall teams played as good as high overall teams, there'd be no desire to use high rated players. If someone with a low rating team is beating a high rated one, that's due to a difference in skill. I've lost to weaker teams myself for being outplayed. I've also beat teams that were rated higher than mine. A skilled player with a stacked team is going to be a heck of a challenge.

    So player skill can make 85 speed faster than 99 speed?

    That's not what I said. What I was saying is higher player ratings don't guarantee wins. Someone with a lower-rated team can beat a higher rated one with better user skill. If you're seeing faster players being outskated, we need to see video of it.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , could you please explain, why godlike AI players, especially Malone, Rhodes, Bates or Peters are occurring in EASHL Drop-In game? Have you ever played against these cheaters? Really nice competition when they are winning games and scoring hat tricks for guys who don't even know how to skate. You destroyed the whole Drop-In game! And then we should not think of the DDA/ice tilt being present in the game!

    Are you saying the AI players in EASHL are now cheaters? How often are you seeing them get hatties? Are there just 2 human D and 3 AI forwards? They can be pretty deadly when going against an opposing team that doesn't know how to defend against AI players. You can't play them the same as you can human players. So, if you play a very high-pressure style of play against them, you're going to leave open lanes for them to exploit. Regardless, the AI players are not boosted. They react to the strategies that are set for them as well as what the human-controlled players are doing.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , could you please explain, why godlike AI players, especially Malone, Rhodes, Bates or Peters are occurring in EASHL Drop-In game? Have you ever played against these cheaters? Really nice competition when they are winning games and scoring hat tricks for guys who don't even know how to skate. You destroyed the whole Drop-In game! And then we should not think of the DDA/ice tilt being present in the game!

    Are you saying the AI players in EASHL are now cheaters? How often are you seeing them get hatties? Are there just 2 human D and 3 AI forwards? They can be pretty deadly when going against an opposing team that doesn't know how to defend against AI players. You can't play them the same as you can human players. So, if you play a very high-pressure style of play against them, you're going to leave open lanes for them to exploit. Regardless, the AI players are not boosted. They react to the strategies that are set for them as well as what the human-controlled players are doing.

    I think what he's saying is that ai in general in drop ins, chel etc needs to be dumbed down to encourage people in a mode made for full human teams to actually find a full team instead of being ok with having ai because as your said the ai can be deadly. Shouldn't be the case. If you play with ai, you should be at a disadvantage.... Not an advantage over a team of 6 who wants to play the mode the way it's meant to be played.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    SpillGal wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    If it was DDA, then it wouldn't be this bad. Remember, the idea of DDA is to offer a level playing field for players of all skill levels.
    This is where I think you are too kind to EA. The idea of DDA is not to offer a level playing field. It is to push players towards spending money.

    The traditional player are spending $60 every year. The guys they are hunting for are spending thousands. This is what the game is made for. This is the reason for them spending $$$ on researching and patenting their system. It's not about staying true to the sport or creating an even playing-field. Doing so wouldn't make a dime more. It would be a waste of time... Right?

    I mean, look at what's going on. Go check out FIFA's forum or Madden's. Or even better, go browse both of them. Users are calling them out on the exact same things.

    I am not able to perform the mental gymnastics required, to look at this as a misfortunate coincidence. When all of the games from the most experienced sports game developer in the world, starts to fail in the same ways... AND the very same developer have researched how a certain pattern of wins and losses, will make players more likely to open their wallets.... AND they are raking in on said players... I am no longer able to defend what used to be my favorite game.

    I think EA are cannibalising their own game in the hunt for their white whale. I also think they are making a terrible mistake and will most likely lose their standing as the best sports game developer in the world. And I think these words ain't worth anything to them, since their busy hunting short-time profits.
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Suffice it to say I don't need to be helped. I want to play this videogame on my own merits and skill. I want to be given the tools to use the skills and knowledge I've gained over the years. Especially if I chose to play this game's competitive modes.
    This is all we want!

    It's not that I think DDA is a "good thing" but the idea of a game dynamically adjusting its difficulty sounds like a technological advancement that would benefit videogamers. How often have you played a game and found that the "regular" difficulty was too easy, but turn it one notch up and it's impossibly difficult? Having the game adjust itself in real time depending on how good (or bad) you're doing in your current section of the game would be something great to have.

    Whether NHL used DDA? I'm not convinced... I just think (as I always have) that the game is programmed very poorly and without any consideration for the actual MAJOR SPORT it's trying to represent. Just look at the E-sport seen for Chel. This is the only E-sport where they try to play it as little as possible to actual hockey. Check out the top players and all you see is LT abuse, ballerina dancing with the puck, no passing, no actual set plays. Nothing like hockey.

    Compare it to something like the Formula One E-sport scene. They set the damage models to realistic, they disable assists of any kind. On the race track, they obey the rules of the sport. You don't see them driving BACKWARDS even though they CAN. You don't see them cutting corners and smashing into other cars to take them out. They play as close as possible to recreate an actual F1 Race.

    Even NBA 2K, at the highest level of the e-sport scene, teams will actually play basketball, not NBA JAM.

    This game is a train wreck. It's NOT in a good place gameplay wise. Nothing makes any sense as it pertains to actual hockey. If you try to play it like the sport you're actually punished. it pays more to know what is exploitable in the game and abuse the heck out of it.

    That's not DDA at work. That's just how this game is made. Everybody wants profit, but it pays to understand what your audience is and what they want.

    When Codemasters decided to make F1 for the "casual fan", they forgot that the player that actually plays F1 wants something that is authentic and as realistic as possible. They don't want something that plays like Mario Kart. They don't even want soething Forza or Gran Turismo which is sim-cade. Codies also knew that they would only have a limited audience because F1 is a niche game. At most they have like 2 million people they can reach with this game and they're fine with it. F1 will NEVER sell over 4-5 million copies. Ever.

    EA needs to understand that NHL needs to cater to people that want Hockey. There may not be 10 million of us, but the 1 or 2 million that are here, we'll buy the game if you make it like we want it, not how people who don't necessarily know the sport would like it.

    I think you underestimate the appeal of hockey as a video game to a lot of people. I don't watch any soccer, basketball, baseball or football but I play all of those games because sports games are fun typically. I stopped playing Madden because it was the same thing every year and I personally don't have enough interest in the sport. I'll still play baseball though, because it's a quality game even though I suck at it. I grinded away at NBA and I had a blast doing so, however playing online is a complete mess because their servers are brutal and I didn't want to have to relearn a whole different scheme of timing that'll change night to night based on the servers. I refuse to play Fifa because it's a poor emulation of the sport but I absolutely love the gameplay of PES. I'd play PES religiously if it had sliders and if the AI wasn't prone to every third game of just literally standing behind players. It's mostly a good game but the mechanics of the AI being awful randomly makes me rage like no other so I told myself I had to stop playing it. But the thing that made me love it is how close it is as a simulation to the sport. They do 90% of the things right, it just needs polishing. With baseball I just get bored of the repetitiveness of the sport and that's the only reason why I go in and out with that game. I'm not a huge baseball guy but the fact that they do a great job of emulating the sport has had me dropping 90 bucks on it every few years.

    Hockey, in my biased opinion, has it all. It has the scoring, it has the hitting, it has the tactical side to it and there's so many ways to play it that aren't repetitive. That's IF you emulate the sport. Hell, even in real life just look at the radical differences between the West and the East Conferences. Two completely different ways of playing the game of hockey. EA should be doing everything within its power to emulate this because the sport lends itself to such a wide audience, it's just that some people refuse to give it a chance. It's one of the few sports where you have people in the states saying, "Screw it, let's watch a game here" and then they get hooked or they wonder why they haven't watched it earlier. I'd say hockey is the sport with the highest intensity out of the major leagues from the aspect of scoring, emotion, exciting plays, etc. It has so much appeal, but people don't generally give it a go. But people WILL give it a go with something like a video game. I've gotten into watching soccer more often because I played a video game. You learn about the players, the teams and it can help cement your favourite team. When I was young I liked Chelsea for soccer because they had a nice blue to them. They're now my favourite team (before the bandwagon win of the Premier League). Video games can invest you heavily into sports if you're a fan of sports.

    When EA was making the best sports game of the year consecutively, I guarantee you they were pulling in lots of people who would have never given the sport a chance. Games like NHL 94 are a cult classic in the sports world. They just need to do a better job at pushing the game towards being game of the year and they need to trend in the direction that Konami did with PES, and that's trying to emulate a real sport. People are tired of the FIFA's, the NHL's, the Maddens, the Tiger Woods/Rory McIlroy golf and they're gravitating more towards PES, [insert somebody who wants to make a more realistic hockey game here], The Golf Club (I absolutely recommend this game if you're into golf). People want realism, they just need the popularity to go along with it. When NHL 09-14 was evolving, everybody was asking for more realistic movements like straddling the blue line as a defender, more lifelike goalies, etc. and they were constantly adding that in. Since 15 they've basically worked on skating and shooting. Hitting has regressed (can't even hip check properly), the goalies have only seen minor improvements, the AI has gotten WAY worse and the game that went from about making plays to win has turned into "how can I enhance my individual skills so I better the team, but not the teammates around me". From NHL 07-14 I was in the top 100 every year for VS (back when win/loss ratio mattered), and if I saw a kid trying to dangle and play individualistic I'd eat him alive and I'd revel in doing so. Now if I see it, I know I'm playing against a "good player" because they can manipulate the game to their advantage better. Hockey IQ isn't necessary in this game. It has a 25% impact on your win/loss ratio and I say that with a 16-1 record right now in VS (with the one loss being a guy that ragged the puck after he scored 1 goal on a poor connection game while none of my grade A chances went in because of fatman lag, causing a 1-0 loss). I consider myself an elite thinker of the game, and it's hardly necessary to be elite at this game. You don't defend with intelligence like a real NHL player would in this game, you don't attack with good passing plays going east/west (it's a north/south game largely), you don't cycle to open up lanes and to tire the defense out. It's absolutely nothing like the sport of hockey. They need to aim that direction and set their sails and they'll eventually see it IN their sales.

    See what I did there? ;)
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Bad match making, or just people with poor internet or WiFi etc seem to be the cause of most people's perception of DDA/ice tilt, imo.

    If you guys were able to more efficiently deal with cheaters/booters, and move back to p2p, it would probably alleviate a lot of the DDA talk. With servers, there's always someone with the connection advantage, which is what causes the feeling of ice tilt.

    I would like to agree with that but the EA Online producer has stated right here that lag does not affect AI in any way whatsoever. So that to me is not the explanation and to be honest, I remember just as much talk of ice-tilt back when HUT was P2P as well.

    They're dead wrong. Absolutely dead wrong. I could prove that the AI plays way differently in games with better connections vs bad ones.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    I agree, people force plays way too much in this game as opposed to staying patient, but one thing you don't take into consideration is that this game severely hinders patient play. In years past you could throw it along the boards behind the net to move the puck around and spread the play. This year, 9/10 times if you do this, guess who is getting it? The opponent's AI. You can't cycle at all in this game because the AI is so awful at knowing where to go so they're never in a proper position to support the patient game. Show me one elite player who plays in tournaments that plays patient hockey (and I'm not talking about the taking 10 resets to enter the zone, I'm talking about once you're officially set up). These guys don't cycle. They stand still with the puck and pretend to attack the net until somebody bites. If you want to call that patient, then so be it, I call it awful. I call it manipulation of poor defensive mechanics. The only time you'll see a team cycle is in EASHL.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    SpillGal wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    If it was DDA, then it wouldn't be this bad. Remember, the idea of DDA is to offer a level playing field for players of all skill levels.
    This is where I think you are too kind to EA. The idea of DDA is not to offer a level playing field. It is to push players towards spending money.

    The traditional player are spending $60 every year. The guys they are hunting for are spending thousands. This is what the game is made for. This is the reason for them spending $$$ on researching and patenting their system. It's not about staying true to the sport or creating an even playing-field. Doing so wouldn't make a dime more. It would be a waste of time... Right?

    I mean, look at what's going on. Go check out FIFA's forum or Madden's. Or even better, go browse both of them. Users are calling them out on the exact same things.

    I am not able to perform the mental gymnastics required, to look at this as a misfortunate coincidence. When all of the games from the most experienced sports game developer in the world, starts to fail in the same ways... AND the very same developer have researched how a certain pattern of wins and losses, will make players more likely to open their wallets.... AND they are raking in on said players... I am no longer able to defend what used to be my favorite game.

    I think EA are cannibalising their own game in the hunt for their white whale. I also think they are making a terrible mistake and will most likely lose their standing as the best sports game developer in the world. And I think these words ain't worth anything to them, since their busy hunting short-time profits.
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Suffice it to say I don't need to be helped. I want to play this videogame on my own merits and skill. I want to be given the tools to use the skills and knowledge I've gained over the years. Especially if I chose to play this game's competitive modes.
    This is all we want!

    It's not that I think DDA is a "good thing" but the idea of a game dynamically adjusting its difficulty sounds like a technological advancement that would benefit videogamers. How often have you played a game and found that the "regular" difficulty was too easy, but turn it one notch up and it's impossibly difficult? Having the game adjust itself in real time depending on how good (or bad) you're doing in your current section of the game would be something great to have.

    Whether NHL used DDA? I'm not convinced... I just think (as I always have) that the game is programmed very poorly and without any consideration for the actual MAJOR SPORT it's trying to represent. Just look at the E-sport seen for Chel. This is the only E-sport where they try to play it as little as possible to actual hockey. Check out the top players and all you see is LT abuse, ballerina dancing with the puck, no passing, no actual set plays. Nothing like hockey.

    Compare it to something like the Formula One E-sport scene. They set the damage models to realistic, they disable assists of any kind. On the race track, they obey the rules of the sport. You don't see them driving BACKWARDS even though they CAN. You don't see them cutting corners and smashing into other cars to take them out. They play as close as possible to recreate an actual F1 Race.

    Even NBA 2K, at the highest level of the e-sport scene, teams will actually play basketball, not NBA JAM.

    This game is a train wreck. It's NOT in a good place gameplay wise. Nothing makes any sense as it pertains to actual hockey. If you try to play it like the sport you're actually punished. it pays more to know what is exploitable in the game and abuse the heck out of it.

    That's not DDA at work. That's just how this game is made. Everybody wants profit, but it pays to understand what your audience is and what they want.

    When Codemasters decided to make F1 for the "casual fan", they forgot that the player that actually plays F1 wants something that is authentic and as realistic as possible. They don't want something that plays like Mario Kart. They don't even want soething Forza or Gran Turismo which is sim-cade. Codies also knew that they would only have a limited audience because F1 is a niche game. At most they have like 2 million people they can reach with this game and they're fine with it. F1 will NEVER sell over 4-5 million copies. Ever.

    EA needs to understand that NHL needs to cater to people that want Hockey. There may not be 10 million of us, but the 1 or 2 million that are here, we'll buy the game if you make it like we want it, not how people who don't necessarily know the sport would like it.

    I think you underestimate the appeal of hockey as a video game to a lot of people. I don't watch any soccer, basketball, baseball or football but I play all of those games because sports games are fun typically. I stopped playing Madden because it was the same thing every year and I personally don't have enough interest in the sport. I'll still play baseball though, because it's a quality game even though I suck at it. I grinded away at NBA and I had a blast doing so, however playing online is a complete mess because their servers are brutal and I didn't want to have to relearn a whole different scheme of timing that'll change night to night based on the servers. I refuse to play Fifa because it's a poor emulation of the sport but I absolutely love the gameplay of PES. I'd play PES religiously if it had sliders and if the AI wasn't prone to every third game of just literally standing behind players. It's mostly a good game but the mechanics of the AI being awful randomly makes me rage like no other so I told myself I had to stop playing it. But the thing that made me love it is how close it is as a simulation to the sport. They do 90% of the things right, it just needs polishing. With baseball I just get bored of the repetitiveness of the sport and that's the only reason why I go in and out with that game. I'm not a huge baseball guy but the fact that they do a great job of emulating the sport has had me dropping 90 bucks on it every few years.

    Hockey, in my biased opinion, has it all. It has the scoring, it has the hitting, it has the tactical side to it and there's so many ways to play it that aren't repetitive. That's IF you emulate the sport. Hell, even in real life just look at the radical differences between the West and the East Conferences. Two completely different ways of playing the game of hockey. EA should be doing everything within its power to emulate this because the sport lends itself to such a wide audience, it's just that some people refuse to give it a chance. It's one of the few sports where you have people in the states saying, "Screw it, let's watch a game here" and then they get hooked or they wonder why they haven't watched it earlier. I'd say hockey is the sport with the highest intensity out of the major leagues from the aspect of scoring, emotion, exciting plays, etc. It has so much appeal, but people don't generally give it a go. But people WILL give it a go with something like a video game. I've gotten into watching soccer more often because I played a video game. You learn about the players, the teams and it can help cement your favourite team. When I was young I liked Chelsea for soccer because they had a nice blue to them. They're now my favourite team (before the bandwagon win of the Premier League). Video games can invest you heavily into sports if you're a fan of sports.

    When EA was making the best sports game of the year consecutively, I guarantee you they were pulling in lots of people who would have never given the sport a chance. Games like NHL 94 are a cult classic in the sports world. They just need to do a better job at pushing the game towards being game of the year and they need to trend in the direction that Konami did with PES, and that's trying to emulate a real sport. People are tired of the FIFA's, the NHL's, the Maddens, the Tiger Woods/Rory McIlroy golf and they're gravitating more towards PES, [insert somebody who wants to make a more realistic hockey game here], The Golf Club (I absolutely recommend this game if you're into golf). People want realism, they just need the popularity to go along with it. When NHL 09-14 was evolving, everybody was asking for more realistic movements like straddling the blue line as a defender, more lifelike goalies, etc. and they were constantly adding that in. Since 15 they've basically worked on skating and shooting. Hitting has regressed (can't even hip check properly), the goalies have only seen minor improvements, the AI has gotten WAY worse and the game that went from about making plays to win has turned into "how can I enhance my individual skills so I better the team, but not the teammates around me". From NHL 07-14 I was in the top 100 every year for VS (back when win/loss ratio mattered), and if I saw a kid trying to dangle and play individualistic I'd eat him alive and I'd revel in doing so. Now if I see it, I know I'm playing against a "good player" because they can manipulate the game to their advantage better. Hockey IQ isn't necessary in this game. It has a 25% impact on your win/loss ratio and I say that with a 16-1 record right now in VS (with the one loss being a guy that ragged the puck after he scored 1 goal on a poor connection game while none of my grade A chances went in because of fatman lag, causing a 1-0 loss). I consider myself an elite thinker of the game, and it's hardly necessary to be elite at this game. You don't defend with intelligence like a real NHL player would in this game, you don't attack with good passing plays going east/west (it's a north/south game largely), you don't cycle to open up lanes and to tire the defense out. It's absolutely nothing like the sport of hockey. They need to aim that direction and set their sails and they'll eventually see it IN their sales.

    See what I did there? ;)

    This brought a tear to my eye... :wink:

    But you essentially nail it. And for me, the big reason I do not like this game all that much anymore, is there is someone that is absolutely adamant about which direction this game is going. I won't mention any names, but whether it be the lead producer or a tie-wearring exec, someone is deciding where this game is heading. Then, coincidentally, whichever "suggestions from the community" that are implemented are only the ones that would seamlessly fit in with the pre-made decision of where the game is going.

    I want more hockey. I want what I see on tv to be possible in this game. So yea, things like moving the puck around to tire out the other team when I'm on the PP. I do not want either goalie bailing out horrible D by making 8 saves-of-the-year within a single game. I want player position to be rewarded on either end of the ice. I do not want the possibility of hogging the puck and yet having very good results in a team-based sport. I want every game to have identical AI that supports its team, but will not be a deciding factor. I want skill and hockey IQ to be the utmost factor in the number of wins you can squeak out rather than having the better mechanic abusing deciding game outcomes. There is no abusing weak mechanics in real life and this game should strive as much as possible to emulate that.

    I'm also getting very tired of the small team, small budget syndrome while expecting me to pay $80 US for a copy every single year. If you want a AAA payment from me, then I expect a AAA effort and product in return. Sadly, EA is content with its 1 million units sold and sees no interest in adding alot more resources especially when HUT generates even more revenue than the number of copies sold.
    I am even more incredibly tired of having that feeling that most of this game isn't polished but just has the "meh, good enough for now and we'll get back to it later" feeling to it and seeing that the "get back to it later" never happens because someone is too busy adding in playable mascots and chewable mouth-guards while allowing us to choose which parka we want to wear, but we will not see it on the ice because instead we will have a black or grey hoodie instead.

    Whatever. This will not change anything about where this game is going. We are still going to have gimped D and its tools and severely gimped goalies. All that matters is scoring goals, selling cards, and clowning out a drop in mode with incredibly useless and very poorly implemented additions. The last thing that matters is trying to replicate this sport as much as possible to its real life counterpart.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    @EA_Aljo

    So what I'm taking from all of this is again EA saying that the game plays how they intended and that everything we see with our own eyes is wrong. You're basically blaming all of us for these problems.

    Just one question though.... If these are our mistakes and we're imagining all of this, then what is the cause for things getting worse every year and MORE people complaining about it, as well as some that used to vehemently say it didn't exist being converted to now believe the exact opposite. I think it's unfair and a bit of a slap to our faces for you to place the blame on us. We don't make the game, and SOMETHING is going on for people to think this is happening so wouldn't it be on you guys to figure out what is causing people to think that and fix the gameplay so that it feels more "organic" as you put it, and NOT point the blame at your customers?

    You say these things don't exist, and I believe you that they're not programmed in, BUT if that's the case, then there's some serious fundamental flaws to your game code, engine etc, and we give you guys plenty of feedback and info on what we don't like, what we want, and what works. Instead of telling us we are wrong...I implore you to dig deep into your game and yourselves, swallow your pride a bit because guess what? (the customers are supposed to always be right) and make the game play in a way that feels rewarding and natural and most of all... Like actual hockey. That is all we want. I have spoken!

    All due respect, sir.

    I'm not saying the game is perfect and never experiences any issues. What I'm saying is that there is no ice tilt or DDA affecting the outcome of games. None whatsoever. You guys are welcome to your theories on this, but it's been said for a very long time now, across multiple channels, from multiple official sources that there is no ice tilt or DDA. If something magical was at play forcing an outcome that you didn't have control over, we wouldn't see leaderboards with players that have a very high win/loss record. You will consistently see top players year after year because they have honed their skills and are earning their high rank.

    You guys have given us a ton of great feedback and changes have been made from it. Although, no matter how good the game is, people will always find fault. We're never going to please everyone. All we can do is continue to listen and incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. We all want the best hockey game possible, but what determines that? The crowd here is a hardcore, passionate gathering of hockey enthusiasts. It's a lot different than the more casual fan that loves the game as well. Then you have offline vs online players. Both groups are important and have different needs they want to be met when it comes to a good hockey game. Satisfying everyone is a daunting task.

    We definitely appreciate all the constructive feedback. It helps more than you know. Hopefully, a lot of it is evident with the changes that have been made. Especially when it comes to gameplay. I know a lot of the complaints also stem from issues with the AI. All I can tell you is that it's noted and the studio is always trying to make them perform more realistically. It's no easy feat making them think like humans in a sport as dynamic as hockey. Especially with how much more complex the game has become over the years.

    So, please keep the constructive commentary coming. As always, video also greatly helps. We'll keep doing all we can to listen and act on your feedback. In the end, we're all lovers of this sport and want as good a representation of it as possible in video game form.
  • Ampereturn
    96 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , could you please explain, why godlike AI players, especially Malone, Rhodes, Bates or Peters are occurring in EASHL Drop-In game? Have you ever played against these cheaters? Really nice competition when they are winning games and scoring hat tricks for guys who don't even know how to skate. You destroyed the whole Drop-In game! And then we should not think of the DDA/ice tilt being present in the game!

    Are you saying the AI players in EASHL are now cheaters? How often are you seeing them get hatties? Are there just 2 human D and 3 AI forwards? They can be pretty deadly when going against an opposing team that doesn't know how to defend against AI players. You can't play them the same as you can human players. So, if you play a very high-pressure style of play against them, you're going to leave open lanes for them to exploit. Regardless, the AI players are not boosted. They react to the strategies that are set for them as well as what the human-controlled players are doing.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , yes, I'm saying, that they are like "cheaters", because "you can't play them the same as you can human players." They have superhuman abilities and that is completely wrong. Please, tell me what kind of competition is it when players of the losing team are disconnecting, because they cannot beat us, they are replaced by AI players with superhuman abilities scoring hat tricks and make miracle comeback? Players without skills are rewarded. Why??? This is Drop-In game, in most cases we are playing together as a team for the first time. The philosophy behind that is completely wrong. If you play with AI, you should be at a disadvantage, not an advantage. This kind of AI players should be toned-down, otherwise I suggest at least 4 human players on each side (not 2) to play 6v6 Drop-in game. Please, consider this. Thank you in advance!
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    @HoodHoppers

    Well, here's what I feel is WRONG with this game.

    #1 - Offense:



    Right off the bat, 1st goal what do you see? Does Backlund wiggle and rotate in place on a 360° axis at his skates like a table-top hockey figurine? No. His upper body certainly does rotate and then he extends his stick on the backhand to tuck it past Holtby. His skates keep going in the same direction the entire time. (I'll get to the defensive and goaltending aspects of these replays later on). 2nd clip: Pastarnak gloves down a flip pass near the boards, then dekes the pants off the d-man with a nifty little toe-drag, then brings it back to his forehand, bats the puck back and forth a bit, then tucks it around Talbot. Does he skate backwards? Does he hold the puck behind his back? Does he wiggle back and forth like he's on a swivel? No. His body obeys the laws of physics as his skates stay mostly planted and moving in the same direction while his UPPER BODY does the movements to get around his opponents. 3rd clip: Niskanen (#2 Washington) bobbles the puck when his teammate bumps into his skate. Stamkos (#91 Tampa) recovers and sends the puck to Point (#21 Tampa) on the boards. Point then passes to Palat (#18 Tampa) in front of the net, but he's in bad position to score so he one-time passes to the slot to Stamkos who spots Kucherov (#86 Tampa) all alone at the bottom of the face-off circle who one times it into an open net.

    In every instance, the goals come off EFFORT, SKILL, and KNOWLEDGE. Here's how goals are scored in this game:





    Take your pick as to which you hate the most. But just to be fair, here's one I scored:



    No excuse. It's not even a difficult play. Goals like this are scored WAY too often in this game for there to be talk of "skill" and "accountability". What fault does the user have if his 91 ovr rated goalie can't make a save a 5 year old could? And the excuse that "it's 4 minute periods" doesn't cut it. If people can score 20+ goals on the AI in 2 minute periods. Then they can sure has heck score 2-3 goals in 4 minute periods if offense was the result of skill rather than just because... A good passing play that rewards the offense with a nice goal by pulling the defense and the goalie out of position? Awesome! Scoring goals "because he glided" or "because Crosby took a shot from the slot"? Yeah, not so much.

    #2 - Defense:

    Let's get back to the Top 10 Goals collection. On the 1st goal by Backlund. The d-man has 2 choices, he either goes for the puck or he stays in position and tries to prevent the easy incursion to the net. He chose poorly and tried to swipe at the puck, now he's stuck getting back into position. He can't wiggle his stick. He can't negate the effects of physics which his lunge forced his body to go one way. But you also see something else that's interesting: he uses his stick to try to contain Backlund, but the forward just uses his superior strength and positioning to just push the stick with his legs and score. No tripping. No loss of puck and exchange of possession on the play. On the Boston goal, Reider first tries to squeeze the flip pass on the boards, but he misses (in this game the puck would've hit the defenseman and he would've gotten instant possession). Then he tries to poke the puck, but whiffs and... Well would you look at that... He doesn't go for the skates. He doesn't cause an instant tripping penalty! Whould've thunk? Then Benning (#83 Oilers) gets his pants served to him for breakfast (no "heat-seaking" body checks here). Skip a little bit forwards to the 5th goal, and the Tampa defense played this horribly (i mean they're basically 4 on 1 against Giroux), but the interesting thing is that before Giroux tucks the puck past the goalie, McDonagh uses his stick (DSS) to try to block his path, but doesn't cause a tripping (as in this game). Giroux simply uses his momentum to push the stick out of the way and continue on his way to scoring.

    The main thing to pull out of this is that defense in this game is all backwards. Poke checks and wild stick swings (yes, like the "wiggle stick") should be more of a liability. And the DSS feature shouldn't be causing any tripping penalties. At the same time proper positioning should be rewarded while bad positioning (always running at the puck handler) should be severely punished. In 1v1 game modes, the AI should be in position. I don't care if they don't tie up the players or hit him or try to steal the puck. At the very least they should be there so what when I switch to THAT player, I can do something about it. And while we're at it, player switching... *sigh*

    D-men need to have BETTER tools to play proper positional defense. Acting like a dog chasing a car after the puck carrier should be a recipe for disaster. DSS needs to have a reason to be favoured over poke checking and stick lifting, while also not be abusable (wiggle stick). If the "elite" are so up and arms over "skillzoning" then give players an actual FUNCTIONING player switching mechanic that allows me to switch to the CORRECT player and not the one that's 5 meters behind the play. Lastly, puck possession switching on incidental contact needs to go. I can accept that there could be some disruption on incidental contact, the the outright switching of possession? C'mon...

    #3 - Goalies:

    Whooooooo, Boy!



    I'm not gonna go save by save, but in every instance what you see is the goalies throwing limbs when they need to make saves. Rarely... Very rarely will you just see a goalie tuck in his limbs like they always do in EA's NHL series (NHL 20 is the WORST of the bunch so far). The Darling save(s) against Detroit in the clip is the perfect example of an NHL caliber goalie at work. That's what this game needs. Scoring on a goalie needs to be more than just "well I took a shot with Ovechkin from the slot" or flicking up past the blue line. Being a goalie is not only the toughest position to play in Hockey, it's also the most rewarding when you are highly skilled at it. A really good goalie will complement an already good team. He can even help keep a mediocre team in the game longer than they should. The reverse however; a really BAD goalie can sink even the most elite of teams. That's not how goaltending works in this game. Tell me what's the point of having a 91 ovr rated Pekka Rinne if he's going to allow goals like this:



    Now if you keep screwing up and allowing 2 on 1s, 3 on 1s or breakaways all game, then absolutely your goalie should let in a few goals eventually. But he still should be making saves on most of them. Otherwise what's the point of getting the best rated goalie if he's going to allow just as many muffins fly by him than a 64 rated Bronze CHL scrub? As for the new "threat assessment" engine? I think it needs to be reworked or just plain removed because goalies played a heck of a lot better WITHOUT it in years prior. Here's how "threat assessment" for a goalie in real life works: Follow the shooter. Always.... That's it. You don't care who's open on the side. The goalies job is to stop the shot first and foremost. It's the defense's job to take care of everything else. If they don't? Then the goalie is left to try to react to make a save and if they score, well the defense should've been covering their man, eh? Having a good goalie on your team should absolutely mean he should be making saves on random shots unscreened. He's not rated 91 ovr simply because of his good looks (or I should hope not). I shouldn't have to be scrambling to block EVERY with my d-men that my opponents take simply because "the goalies gotta get sniped sometimes".

    It's stuff like THAT, that makes people say "ice-tilt" even though there isn't. If I get beat on a good play, then it's on me. I need to play better. If I get beat on a random shot because I did everything right defensively and my opponent has no other choice but to "flick up" and he scores? That's the kinda stuff that turns me off of this game. There's just no skill involved. It's a bunch of random occurances queued up in a random sequence over and over again. Some games your teammates obey you. Sometimes they're inhaling Valium pills. Some games your Goalie stops every shot from a team made up of every Legend in the game. And Sometimes your goalie can't stop a muffin from the blue line by Cody Ceci.

    That's not hockey. That's the lottery...
  • Ampereturn wrote: »
    This kind of AI players should be toned-down, otherwise I suggest at least 4 human players on each side (not 2) to play 6v6 Drop-in game. Please, consider this. Thank you in advance!

    While I don't necessarily agree that AI players should be "toned down" if they're replacing human players that quit out, at the very least the bolded part I agree with and is something many of us have asked for a long time now. And if it's too much to ask that the game end if there's not enough human players available to play the rest of the game, then at least have a prompt to both teams advising them that there aren't enough players left and that they can either A. Continue to play, but stats and win/loss record doesn't count or B. Quit game, win/loss record counts, but stats (goals and assists) don't.

    If anything, I would take this opportunity to once again ask EA to consider implementing a type of VIP system like 2K uses so that if you are kicked out, at the very least the AI replacing your avatar PLAYS LIKE YOU DO. So if you're a bad player, then the AI is bad.
  • If there is no DDS, then the code is really really messed up.
    I played 2 games against this guy in OVP. Ping was 20-25ms. First I lost 3-2 even thou I had shots 2:1. Nothing went in. Lost only 6CR so he was clearly better.
    Then the second match. Every shot goes in, his AI constantly wanders out of position, mine is suddenly aggressive and always on the puck. So EA whats going on? This win was decided 100% by game and not skill.
    ssxg8ci8cgaa.jpeg
  • Players need to keep drop in as randoms, it's only fair. It's pathetic seeing the same "top ranked " teams in drop in only receiving that title because you play against crap every game. We know who you are..
  • i wouldn't put too much into the messages from community managers. They aren't developers that actually know the ins and outs of how the game functions. Even then the devs are likely divided up into many pieces where they work in a silo just on their piece of the game.

    there were comments made earlier about slower skaters not being able to catch faster skaters but we all know thats not true. It's been proven and acknowledged by actual Devs in the past that AI will out skate a human to the puck in various situations because of programming.

    There is no DD or Tilt or anything like that. there's just bad AI programming. I don't care to dive deep into this conversation for 100th time. there are many factors that affect the outcome of what the AI does but even then i think there is some kind of randomization of what you will get from them.

    But if you don't think there is serious issues with the AI then you have never played this game. I could give 1000s of examples but i'll leave this one. 1/10 breakaways I see AI do some sweet dangle and tuck or even just snipe of the goalie. The other 9/10 ? total disaster. skate in and then shoot from 10 feet and miss the net by a mile (or put it straight into his chest). Even worse I bet about 1/3 of the time they just skate in and crash into the goalie and lose the puck. Or my favorite seem confused, crash into goalie and lose puck but somehow score and it counts.

    I won't even start on how stupid the AI goalies are.

    Here's my biggest AI pet peeve. How come a game that has been around for 25+ years, based on the sport of hockey where a hockey net is pretty much the most important "prop" on the "field" and yet EA's AI seems to have no awareness that its even there or how to "avoid" or "deal with" it ??? I love watching AI skaters (or hell even goalies) just go straight behind the net but somehow get caught up on it, stuck around it, pass pucks into it, etc...

    Sometimes it feels like this game is a summer project for kids that want to get into game development. Every year little tiny tweaks, usually full of bugs/issues, and only have enough time to deal with a few bugs after release. Besides that it's "tuning". Even that is something that happens once or twice a year. That sounds like something someone could do with their free time when they aren't doing their actual job 40 hours a week.

    The only way to avoid most of the disaster that this game has become is to play pure 6v6 online with good people. Even then it has its issues but so much better.

  • i wouldn't put too much into the messages from community managers. They aren't developers that actually know the ins and outs of how the game functions. Even then the devs are likely divided up into many pieces where they work in a silo just on their piece of the game.

    there were comments made earlier about slower skaters not being able to catch faster skaters but we all know thats not true. It's been proven and acknowledged by actual Devs in the past that AI will out skate a human to the puck in various situations because of programming.

    There is no DD or Tilt or anything like that. there's just bad AI programming. I don't care to dive deep into this conversation for 100th time. there are many factors that affect the outcome of what the AI does but even then i think there is some kind of randomization of what you will get from them.

    But if you don't think there is serious issues with the AI then you have never played this game. I could give 1000s of examples but i'll leave this one. 1/10 breakaways I see AI do some sweet dangle and tuck or even just snipe of the goalie. The other 9/10 ? total disaster. skate in and then shoot from 10 feet and miss the net by a mile (or put it straight into his chest). Even worse I bet about 1/3 of the time they just skate in and crash into the goalie and lose the puck. Or my favorite seem confused, crash into goalie and lose puck but somehow score and it counts.

    I won't even start on how stupid the AI goalies are.

    Here's my biggest AI pet peeve. How come a game that has been around for 25+ years, based on the sport of hockey where a hockey net is pretty much the most important "prop" on the "field" and yet EA's AI seems to have no awareness that its even there or how to "avoid" or "deal with" it ??? I love watching AI skaters (or hell even goalies) just go straight behind the net but somehow get caught up on it, stuck around it, pass pucks into it, etc...

    Sometimes it feels like this game is a summer project for kids that want to get into game development. Every year little tiny tweaks, usually full of bugs/issues, and only have enough time to deal with a few bugs after release. Besides that it's "tuning". Even that is something that happens once or twice a year. That sounds like something someone could do with their free time when they aren't doing their actual job 40 hours a week.

    The only way to avoid most of the disaster that this game has become is to play pure 6v6 online with good people. Even then it has its issues but so much better.

    Fully agree with that. Thank you!
  • 5 years of next gen with a development team of 200+ and this is what we get.
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