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NHL 20 Gameplay Discussion

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  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    5 years of next gen with a development team of 200+ and this is what we get.

    there is no chance they have a dev team of 200+ ... not unless they are simultaneously working on many other games at the same time.

    "Ramjagsingh leads a team of about 250 people in Burnaby who work only on the NHL game with an average age in the low 30s."

    Source: https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/stu-cowan-designing-nhl-video-games-for-a-living-sure-looks-like-fun

    Edit: Oops... shouldn't have doubted @Taste-D-Rainbow . He's a smart cookie! ;)

    I mean, we can argue that maybe 250 aren't just "devs", but as they so often like to point out, it's not just the Devs working on this game. There's an art department (probably devided into many parts like 3D models, 2D textures, Animations, etc). There's probably an online department, a physics department as well. There's obviously a Research & Marketing department that tells the rest what "the people" want... Still they ALL make the game as a team. You don't see the Art Department at The Coalition touting "Yeah, Gears 5 is good because of our textures! We're only 10 in our department, so the game is made by a small team!" LOL

    Whether there are 200 or 150 or even just 30 people dedicated to pure coding, they're all part of the same team of 250 (or more) people that work on this game every year. That's no "small team".

    I wasn't questioning Taste. I'm questioning what Rammer and EA is saying. I have friends in the industry, been around gaming for decades, etc... Dedicated teams of 250+ are for AAA titles with budgets near 100million USD, expectations of revenue in the 100s of millions over a 2-3 year period. At this point I would doubt NHL has more than 30-50 million in sales each year. FIFA probably has close to a billion.

    If you told me FIFA team a team that large, I would be a bit surprised since that is an annually released game with very little change from year to year. BUT the revenue would justify it. FIFA has to have a revenue 10-20 times that of NHL.

    Even then it is possible that EA could justify a larger team and less profits to deliver an "EA Sports label product".

    But my point was based on the product we see and the things we hear like "this is niche product without much demand, unlike FIFA, as such they have very limited resources. They have to pick a few things to work on...blah blah blah". Supposedly this is why they only release one or two minor patches each year and many game breaking bugs/features last years.

    Yeah maybe they have 150 artists (interns) working on various colored mouthguards and baseball hats. But there is no way they have a "development team" anything close to the size of traditional AAA title teams. If they do... sorry thats just SAD.

    There's a lot that goes into creating games but usually smaller titles like this have tricks to do more with less. EA is considered by most to be a "profits at all cost" type company and as such I would think they would expect the NHL team to do just that.

    This is why its so frustrating to see the things they have done. Time wasted on things that bring no real value or even worse backfire and end up being a negative. Sure that may not be taking away from gameplay dev time but its sure taking a slice of budget that could have been better spent elsewhere.

    Agree, but I want to touch up a bit on the bold part.

    I do not understand why they went the route of this outdoor rink fiasco knowing full well having 12 different jerseys/parkas or whatever would be absolutely confusing in a 6v6 setting. I also do not get the 2 different modes for 3s, then Ones, etc...

    IMO it would have been logical to instead have other 6v6 modes with different tunings. IE, a tuner for more realism and a tuner for as it is, or maybe even a tuner for more arcade. You still end up with different modes, such as now, but at least those modes would tailor a specific crowd instead of this "let's try to please everyone with one single tuner" mentality.

    I don't know anymore. Seems resources could have been spent more wisely imo and this CHEL stuff is ridiculous, confusing, and very poorly implemented.

    Like I said before, they lack direction. They don't know who to cater to so they try and please everyone yet end up satisfying nobody

    Yea, I know. And that's the biggest issue I have with this game.

    Seems the more casual a player you are, the more you enjoy the game. However, one would think that after 6 years (should have been done by now honestly) EA would go and say "Hey for all you fellow hardcore hockey fans, here is a (tuner, game mode, league, whatever you want to insert) for you guys to enjoy".

    BOOM. Instant satisfaction boost of at least 60% by your user base (if done correctly). Alot of your clients would be like "Wow, EA! You finally listened! Thank-you!"

    No, instead I get face masks, baseball caps and a bajillion parkas to wear on some random pond to hopefully satisfy the hockey purist in me. What a joke. It's basically like saying that whoever is a true hockey fan does not have his place in an EA hockey game with the words "NHL" in it. This isn't Backyard Hockey 2019, no??

    You don't have to play drop-ins. The more hardcore players are probably in 6s where you don't have any of the casual gear. There were many requests for an outdoor rink. There were also requests for more customization. Not everyone is happy about it, but seeing as how a very high number of people use the casual gear in drop-ins, it seems to be pretty popular. It would be nice to have an outdoor setting for club games. I'd like that as well. Regardless, there is a way for hardcore players to play together in club games.

    What would you change to make the game satisfy the hardcore crowd better?

    this game in no way caters to the casual player. its likely the most difficult sports game for a casual player to pick up and be any good at it. Its the primary reason drop in is a nightmare and has gone from NHLs best feature to its worst.

    The game is less forgiving than ever except in one way, goalies are complete garbage.

    "good" teams completely dominate mediocre to bad teams more than ever.

    I've played 1000s of club games over the years but its a poorly implemented system. Its what lead to many people spending much more time in drop in until EA destroyed drop in and turned it into the laughing stock of video gaming world.

    Club is still a total mess. The matchmaking is a mess, no good controls over who and how you play in club, there's no "practice" capabilities, there's no lobby/community system for "public club", the list of faults goes on and on.

    Other than 3rd party league communities, there's no way to meet people in this game yet club is essentially where a group would get together and compete in anything other than clown hockey on ice surfaces where you can't see anything in a game full of trolls and just down right awful hockey players.

    100s of suggestions as to how to improve things are sent out every year in 100s of threads. The only ones I ever see get into the game are usually the worst ones or EA goes it's own route, deviating from the suggestions and poorly implements them.

    I kind of agree. But, with the deke system being simplified, and goalies being as bad as they are, and the pre-made cookie cutter classes in EASHL, this game is actually more casual friendly than in the past. It is indeed a hard game to play, but I think NBA2K is harder to pickup for a casual than NHL.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    5 years of next gen with a development team of 200+ and this is what we get.

    there is no chance they have a dev team of 200+ ... not unless they are simultaneously working on many other games at the same time.

    "Ramjagsingh leads a team of about 250 people in Burnaby who work only on the NHL game with an average age in the low 30s."

    Source: https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/stu-cowan-designing-nhl-video-games-for-a-living-sure-looks-like-fun

    Edit: Oops... shouldn't have doubted @Taste-D-Rainbow . He's a smart cookie! ;)

    I mean, we can argue that maybe 250 aren't just "devs", but as they so often like to point out, it's not just the Devs working on this game. There's an art department (probably devided into many parts like 3D models, 2D textures, Animations, etc). There's probably an online department, a physics department as well. There's obviously a Research & Marketing department that tells the rest what "the people" want... Still they ALL make the game as a team. You don't see the Art Department at The Coalition touting "Yeah, Gears 5 is good because of our textures! We're only 10 in our department, so the game is made by a small team!" LOL

    Whether there are 200 or 150 or even just 30 people dedicated to pure coding, they're all part of the same team of 250 (or more) people that work on this game every year. That's no "small team".

    I wasn't questioning Taste. I'm questioning what Rammer and EA is saying. I have friends in the industry, been around gaming for decades, etc... Dedicated teams of 250+ are for AAA titles with budgets near 100million USD, expectations of revenue in the 100s of millions over a 2-3 year period. At this point I would doubt NHL has more than 30-50 million in sales each year. FIFA probably has close to a billion.

    If you told me FIFA team a team that large, I would be a bit surprised since that is an annually released game with very little change from year to year. BUT the revenue would justify it. FIFA has to have a revenue 10-20 times that of NHL.

    Even then it is possible that EA could justify a larger team and less profits to deliver an "EA Sports label product".

    But my point was based on the product we see and the things we hear like "this is niche product without much demand, unlike FIFA, as such they have very limited resources. They have to pick a few things to work on...blah blah blah". Supposedly this is why they only release one or two minor patches each year and many game breaking bugs/features last years.

    Yeah maybe they have 150 artists (interns) working on various colored mouthguards and baseball hats. But there is no way they have a "development team" anything close to the size of traditional AAA title teams. If they do... sorry thats just SAD.

    There's a lot that goes into creating games but usually smaller titles like this have tricks to do more with less. EA is considered by most to be a "profits at all cost" type company and as such I would think they would expect the NHL team to do just that.

    This is why its so frustrating to see the things they have done. Time wasted on things that bring no real value or even worse backfire and end up being a negative. Sure that may not be taking away from gameplay dev time but its sure taking a slice of budget that could have been better spent elsewhere.

    Agree, but I want to touch up a bit on the bold part.

    I do not understand why they went the route of this outdoor rink fiasco knowing full well having 12 different jerseys/parkas or whatever would be absolutely confusing in a 6v6 setting. I also do not get the 2 different modes for 3s, then Ones, etc...

    IMO it would have been logical to instead have other 6v6 modes with different tunings. IE, a tuner for more realism and a tuner for as it is, or maybe even a tuner for more arcade. You still end up with different modes, such as now, but at least those modes would tailor a specific crowd instead of this "let's try to please everyone with one single tuner" mentality.

    I don't know anymore. Seems resources could have been spent more wisely imo and this CHEL stuff is ridiculous, confusing, and very poorly implemented.

    Like I said before, they lack direction. They don't know who to cater to so they try and please everyone yet end up satisfying nobody

    Yea, I know. And that's the biggest issue I have with this game.

    Seems the more casual a player you are, the more you enjoy the game. However, one would think that after 6 years (should have been done by now honestly) EA would go and say "Hey for all you fellow hardcore hockey fans, here is a (tuner, game mode, league, whatever you want to insert) for you guys to enjoy".

    BOOM. Instant satisfaction boost of at least 60% by your user base (if done correctly). Alot of your clients would be like "Wow, EA! You finally listened! Thank-you!"

    No, instead I get face masks, baseball caps and a bajillion parkas to wear on some random pond to hopefully satisfy the hockey purist in me. What a joke. It's basically like saying that whoever is a true hockey fan does not have his place in an EA hockey game with the words "NHL" in it. This isn't Backyard Hockey 2019, no??

    You don't have to play drop-ins. The more hardcore players are probably in 6s where you don't have any of the casual gear. There were many requests for an outdoor rink. There were also requests for more customization. Not everyone is happy about it, but seeing as how a very high number of people use the casual gear in drop-ins, it seems to be pretty popular. It would be nice to have an outdoor setting for club games. I'd like that as well. Regardless, there is a way for hardcore players to play together in club games.

    What would you change to make the game satisfy the hardcore crowd better?

    this game in no way caters to the casual player. its likely the most difficult sports game for a casual player to pick up and be any good at it. Its the primary reason drop in is a nightmare and has gone from NHLs best feature to its worst.

    The game is less forgiving than ever except in one way, goalies are complete garbage.

    "good" teams completely dominate mediocre to bad teams more than ever.

    I've played 1000s of club games over the years but its a poorly implemented system. Its what lead to many people spending much more time in drop in until EA destroyed drop in and turned it into the laughing stock of video gaming world.

    Club is still a total mess. The matchmaking is a mess, no good controls over who and how you play in club, there's no "practice" capabilities, there's no lobby/community system for "public club", the list of faults goes on and on.

    Other than 3rd party league communities, there's no way to meet people in this game yet club is essentially where a group would get together and compete in anything other than clown hockey on ice surfaces where you can't see anything in a game full of trolls and just down right awful hockey players.

    100s of suggestions as to how to improve things are sent out every year in 100s of threads. The only ones I ever see get into the game are usually the worst ones or EA goes it's own route, deviating from the suggestions and poorly implements them.

    I kind of agree. But, with the deke system being simplified, and goalies being as bad as they are, and the pre-made cookie cutter classes in EASHL, this game is actually more casual friendly than in the past. It is indeed a hard game to play, but I think NBA2K is harder to pickup for a casual than NHL.

    its all about context. it may be easy to pick up a controller, and figure out how do i skate, how do i pass, how do i shoot. But how to translate that into what do i do when? in NBA2K i may not be good at all the little things but I can dribble up and shoot baskets and at least be competitive the first time i ever played. in NHL the average noob could probably join 100 straight games of EASHL and never successfully score a goal or win a game if it wasn't for the fact that almost 95% of the drop in players are just as terrible as they are.

    the deke system may be simplified but its not even useful to the average noob. they dont even know it exist let alone why would you use it. to be honest the deke system is mostly unnecessary anyway. watch elite 6s players and you won't see many "dekes". most people do it because its fun. its usually more efficient/effective to do something else.

    plain and simple there needs to be a way to separate casual players from competitive. And that's not drop in or club. there should be solo or group hockey of various levels of competitiveness. groups of "mediocre" players shouldn't be scared of club because its so poorly implemented that every other game they get matched with a team of super stars that light them up for 15 goals. Good "solo" players shouldn't have to sit around waiting for the right "club" game to become available for them to play a game of 6s hockey that isn't a complete joke.

    instead of deleting the lobby system they should have found ways to improve it.

    the architecture of how the actual gameplay is delivered needs a complete overhaul.

  • I wasn't questioning Taste. I'm questioning what Rammer and EA is saying. I have friends in the industry, been around gaming for decades, etc... Dedicated teams of 250+ are for AAA titles with budgets near 100million USD, expectations of revenue in the 100s of millions over a 2-3 year period. At this point I would doubt NHL has more than 30-50 million in sales each year. FIFA probably has close to a billion.

    If you told me FIFA team a team that large, I would be a bit surprised since that is an annually released game with very little change from year to year. BUT the revenue would justify it. FIFA has to have a revenue 10-20 times that of NHL.

    Even then it is possible that EA could justify a larger team and less profits to deliver an "EA Sports label product".

    But my point was based on the product we see and the things we hear like "this is niche product without much demand, unlike FIFA, as such they have very limited resources. They have to pick a few things to work on...blah blah blah". Supposedly this is why they only release one or two minor patches each year and many game breaking bugs/features last years.

    Yeah maybe they have 150 artists (interns) working on various colored mouthguards and baseball hats. But there is no way they have a "development team" anything close to the size of traditional AAA title teams. If they do... sorry thats just SAD.

    There's a lot that goes into creating games but usually smaller titles like this have tricks to do more with less. EA is considered by most to be a "profits at all cost" type company and as such I would think they would expect the NHL team to do just that.

    This is why its so frustrating to see the things they have done. Time wasted on things that bring no real value or even worse backfire and end up being a negative. Sure that may not be taking away from gameplay dev time but its sure taking a slice of budget that could have been better spent elsewhere.

    To be fair, I think that even if they were 1000 people working on this game, the end results would be the same. It's not their number or the "quality" of their work that's the problem, IMO, but their vision of what hockey is or should be. I have all the faith in the world towards Ben and (most of) his team's talent. I have little faith in the direction they're taking (or being told to take) this franchise in.

    Think of EA's NHL over the past decade. Sure things have changed, better console hardware brought better visuals, better sounding arenas, better animations. But if you look at the "core" of the NHL games they remain the same since NHL 07. And it will never change, not this year, not next and not even in 5 years.
  • You can't just say people are using the custom clothes so they must like it. People have to use the custom clothes because they have to play those modes. They have to play those modes because you can't find matchups in club 6's (xbox Anyway) due to a busted matchmaker (2 years now) and a population that is spread is too thin playing 8 different game modes. A lack of options does not mean what's left over is "enjoyed". Enable voting for traditional vs. outside rinks for dropins then come back and tell us how loved it is based on what is chosen.

    As for how we got here in the first place its yet another instance of EA hearing what they want instead of what's being said. People essentially wanted a winter classic game option for dropins and EA turned it into an entire involuntary circus that also includes outdoor rinks. The people weren't asking for individual clothing for every player, they weren't asking for voice lines or pre game dance routines or music you can't turn off and the one clear and nearly universal piece of feedback is that we dang sure don't want shadows stretched out over half of the rink yet those are still there for some reason too.

    The way EA interprets feedback I half expect dropins to be a black screen next year where you can't see the game because "players didn't enjoy the differences in lighting levels on the rink".
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    @HoodHoppers

    Well, here's what I feel is WRONG with this game.

    #1 - Offense:



    Right off the bat, 1st goal what do you see? Does Backlund wiggle and rotate in place on a 360° axis at his skates like a table-top hockey figurine? No. His upper body certainly does rotate and then he extends his stick on the backhand to tuck it past Holtby. His skates keep going in the same direction the entire time. (I'll get to the defensive and goaltending aspects of these replays later on). 2nd clip: Pastarnak gloves down a flip pass near the boards, then dekes the pants off the d-man with a nifty little toe-drag, then brings it back to his forehand, bats the puck back and forth a bit, then tucks it around Talbot. Does he skate backwards? Does he hold the puck behind his back? Does he wiggle back and forth like he's on a swivel? No. His body obeys the laws of physics as his skates stay mostly planted and moving in the same direction while his UPPER BODY does the movements to get around his opponents. 3rd clip: Niskanen (#2 Washington) bobbles the puck when his teammate bumps into his skate. Stamkos (#91 Tampa) recovers and sends the puck to Point (#21 Tampa) on the boards. Point then passes to Palat (#18 Tampa) in front of the net, but he's in bad position to score so he one-time passes to the slot to Stamkos who spots Kucherov (#86 Tampa) all alone at the bottom of the face-off circle who one times it into an open net.

    In every instance, the goals come off EFFORT, SKILL, and KNOWLEDGE. Here's how goals are scored in this game:





    Take your pick as to which you hate the most. But just to be fair, here's one I scored:



    No excuse. It's not even a difficult play. Goals like this are scored WAY too often in this game for there to be talk of "skill" and "accountability". What fault does the user have if his 91 ovr rated goalie can't make a save a 5 year old could? And the excuse that "it's 4 minute periods" doesn't cut it. If people can score 20+ goals on the AI in 2 minute periods. Then they can sure has heck score 2-3 goals in 4 minute periods if offense was the result of skill rather than just because... A good passing play that rewards the offense with a nice goal by pulling the defense and the goalie out of position? Awesome! Scoring goals "because he glided" or "because Crosby took a shot from the slot"? Yeah, not so much.

    #2 - Defense:

    Let's get back to the Top 10 Goals collection. On the 1st goal by Backlund. The d-man has 2 choices, he either goes for the puck or he stays in position and tries to prevent the easy incursion to the net. He chose poorly and tried to swipe at the puck, now he's stuck getting back into position. He can't wiggle his stick. He can't negate the effects of physics which his lunge forced his body to go one way. But you also see something else that's interesting: he uses his stick to try to contain Backlund, but the forward just uses his superior strength and positioning to just push the stick with his legs and score. No tripping. No loss of puck and exchange of possession on the play. On the Boston goal, Reider first tries to squeeze the flip pass on the boards, but he misses (in this game the puck would've hit the defenseman and he would've gotten instant possession). Then he tries to poke the puck, but whiffs and... Well would you look at that... He doesn't go for the skates. He doesn't cause an instant tripping penalty! Whould've thunk? Then Benning (#83 Oilers) gets his pants served to him for breakfast (no "heat-seaking" body checks here). Skip a little bit forwards to the 5th goal, and the Tampa defense played this horribly (i mean they're basically 4 on 1 against Giroux), but the interesting thing is that before Giroux tucks the puck past the goalie, McDonagh uses his stick (DSS) to try to block his path, but doesn't cause a tripping (as in this game). Giroux simply uses his momentum to push the stick out of the way and continue on his way to scoring.

    The main thing to pull out of this is that defense in this game is all backwards. Poke checks and wild stick swings (yes, like the "wiggle stick") should be more of a liability. And the DSS feature shouldn't be causing any tripping penalties. At the same time proper positioning should be rewarded while bad positioning (always running at the puck handler) should be severely punished. In 1v1 game modes, the AI should be in position. I don't care if they don't tie up the players or hit him or try to steal the puck. At the very least they should be there so what when I switch to THAT player, I can do something about it. And while we're at it, player switching... *sigh*

    D-men need to have BETTER tools to play proper positional defense. Acting like a dog chasing a car after the puck carrier should be a recipe for disaster. DSS needs to have a reason to be favoured over poke checking and stick lifting, while also not be abusable (wiggle stick). If the "elite" are so up and arms over "skillzoning" then give players an actual FUNCTIONING player switching mechanic that allows me to switch to the CORRECT player and not the one that's 5 meters behind the play. Lastly, puck possession switching on incidental contact needs to go. I can accept that there could be some disruption on incidental contact, the the outright switching of possession? C'mon...

    #3 - Goalies:

    Whooooooo, Boy!



    I'm not gonna go save by save, but in every instance what you see is the goalies throwing limbs when they need to make saves. Rarely... Very rarely will you just see a goalie tuck in his limbs like they always do in EA's NHL series (NHL 20 is the WORST of the bunch so far). The Darling save(s) against Detroit in the clip is the perfect example of an NHL caliber goalie at work. That's what this game needs. Scoring on a goalie needs to be more than just "well I took a shot with Ovechkin from the slot" or flicking up past the blue line. Being a goalie is not only the toughest position to play in Hockey, it's also the most rewarding when you are highly skilled at it. A really good goalie will complement an already good team. He can even help keep a mediocre team in the game longer than they should. The reverse however; a really BAD goalie can sink even the most elite of teams. That's not how goaltending works in this game. Tell me what's the point of having a 91 ovr rated Pekka Rinne if he's going to allow goals like this:



    Now if you keep screwing up and allowing 2 on 1s, 3 on 1s or breakaways all game, then absolutely your goalie should let in a few goals eventually. But he still should be making saves on most of them. Otherwise what's the point of getting the best rated goalie if he's going to allow just as many muffins fly by him than a 64 rated Bronze CHL scrub? As for the new "threat assessment" engine? I think it needs to be reworked or just plain removed because goalies played a heck of a lot better WITHOUT it in years prior. Here's how "threat assessment" for a goalie in real life works: Follow the shooter. Always.... That's it. You don't care who's open on the side. The goalies job is to stop the shot first and foremost. It's the defense's job to take care of everything else. If they don't? Then the goalie is left to try to react to make a save and if they score, well the defense should've been covering their man, eh? Having a good goalie on your team should absolutely mean he should be making saves on random shots unscreened. He's not rated 91 ovr simply because of his good looks (or I should hope not). I shouldn't have to be scrambling to block EVERY with my d-men that my opponents take simply because "the goalies gotta get sniped sometimes".

    It's stuff like THAT, that makes people say "ice-tilt" even though there isn't. If I get beat on a good play, then it's on me. I need to play better. If I get beat on a random shot because I did everything right defensively and my opponent has no other choice but to "flick up" and he scores? That's the kinda stuff that turns me off of this game. There's just no skill involved. It's a bunch of random occurances queued up in a random sequence over and over again. Some games your teammates obey you. Sometimes they're inhaling Valium pills. Some games your Goalie stops every shot from a team made up of every Legend in the game. And Sometimes your goalie can't stop a muffin from the blue line by Cody Ceci.

    That's not hockey. That's the lottery...

    @VeNOM2099
    @EA_Aljo

    This is a magnificent post.

    A few things here I want to reiterate.

    1. Skating ballerinas. This is a no brainer. This does not happen in hockey ever. If you try it, you get crushed and/or get dispossessed. In the top 10 goal video, you see nothing of the sort. In fact, I challenge anyone in the world to show me video of anyone (Major Junior and above) ever scoring a goal where they s-turn and 360 pivot all the way down the ice let alone turn backwards and go through a team. The fact this is one of the main go-to moves by a lot of the "top" players should ring alarm bells. You see it constantly. This is something that needs to be completely removed. I couldn't care less what kind of "players" that hurts. The fact of the matter is that is not hockey. There is no superior skill or hockey IQ that contributes to that. It is simply a manipulation of a game that struggles with physics.

    2. When it comes to defense, Venom is on point. To play defense in this game well you have to almost do the opposite of hockey. You can't poke check without getting a penalty 95% of the time. You can't stick check because there is no button for it. You can't play contain because Ballerina Bobby will do 15 s-cut pivots and lose you because the offence has more control. The best defense? Is to, literally, turn off auto back skate (abandoning backwards entirely and strafe) and stand still between the puck and the net. Correct me if I am mistaken but isn't one of the fundamental lessons you learn as a young guy playing hockey is to not stand still? That is a death sentence. Further, you can intercept a hard pass CLEANLY without facing the play. Again, when was anyone ever rewarded for not facing the play on defense?

    3. You get punished for doing the right thing and rewarded for doing the wrong. Get beat flat footed in the neutral zone? No big deal, you can use this magical "hustle button" to get back in the play. It is rubbish. When you are beat, you are beat. Do I really need to find video of this? You demolish a ballerina and he is laying on the ice? He will get the puck back. You lunge when you should have played contain? The puck will probably hit you and you get an interception when you should have been gathering your jock strap after getting beat. It makes no sense. The true "skill" in this game is to learn how to manipulate it.

    4. There is no ice-tilt/scripting. I agree and discourage the conspirators from pushing this. However, if something isn't terribly wrong with this game explain how I (a guy who has played for 28 years, was a second team all American, skated with professionals, coached kids all the way up through amateur players) can outshoot someone 35-8, pass at 80%, possess the puck for 80% of the time, and lose 4-2 because some kid (or even an adult) skates in reverse the whole game and loops until he finally gets 1 inch to shoot high short side while I try real hockey plays and meet an absurd amount of resistance for it?
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    its all about context. it may be easy to pick up a controller, and figure out how do i skate, how do i pass, how do i shoot. But how to translate that into what do i do when? in NBA2K i may not be good at all the little things but I can dribble up and shoot baskets and at least be competitive the first time i ever played. in NHL the average noob could probably join 100 straight games of EASHL and never successfully score a goal or win a game if it wasn't for the fact that almost 95% of the drop in players are just as terrible as they are.

    the deke system may be simplified but its not even useful to the average noob. they dont even know it exist let alone why would you use it. to be honest the deke system is mostly unnecessary anyway. watch elite 6s players and you won't see many "dekes". most people do it because its fun. its usually more efficient/effective to do something else.

    plain and simple there needs to be a way to separate casual players from competitive. And that's not drop in or club. there should be solo or group hockey of various levels of competitiveness. groups of "mediocre" players shouldn't be scared of club because its so poorly implemented that every other game they get matched with a team of super stars that light them up for 15 goals. Good "solo" players shouldn't have to sit around waiting for the right "club" game to become available for them to play a game of 6s hockey that isn't a complete joke.

    instead of deleting the lobby system they should have found ways to improve it.

    the architecture of how the actual gameplay is delivered needs a complete overhaul.

    No...

    I've played the NBA 2K series for a good while now. And I can tell you that right off the bat, if you join the EASHL equivalent in that game, your first game you will get posterized and humiliated without ever touching the ball, let alone "take a shot" or make a pass. If you somehow get lucky and do get a shot off, 95% of the time, since you don't know how to play, you don't know that you have to properly time your shot release to even have a chance of it going in.

    Compare that to EA's NHL, where even the most basic newbie can hold on to the puck, twirl around without losing it and take a random shot that has just as much chance of going past the goalie (if not more) than a well executed attack.

    The NHL series has always been about catering to the casuals. NBA 2K you can play for months and you'll barely even start to learn how to hold your own, never mind scoring jays on a regular basis. It's the difference between a difficult well crafted gameplay experience and... well... Whatever EA put out there.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    To be fair, I think that even if they were 1000 people working on this game, the end results would be the same. It's not their number or the "quality" of their work that's the problem, IMO, but their vision of what hockey is or should be. I have all the faith in the world towards Ben and (most of) his team's talent. I have little faith in the direction they're taking (or being told to take) this franchise in.

    Think of EA's NHL over the past decade. Sure things have changed, better console hardware brought better visuals, better sounding arenas, better animations. But if you look at the "core" of the NHL games they remain the same since NHL 07. And it will never change, not this year, not next and not even in 5 years.

    The direction of this franchise has taken a major turn for the worse over for a few years now. Look at all the basic requests for improvement that have been made, and look at what EA decided to give us. We asked for improved AI and we got mascots. Asked for AI to improve again, and we got more mascots you can play in 3's. How long have we been asking for roster share, more realistic player separation, better franchise, more offline modes, etc..etc..etc..

    Asked for outdoor arena for Winter Classic, and we get Snoop Dog. Asked for All Star Tournament (that has been in the NHL for years now) and we got Chel. Next year, instead of improved AI, we'll probably get Baby Yoda as a celebrity skater.

    EA seems to cater to the "I just want to have fun and only win" crowd. The crowd that doesn't have to work for a win. The participation trophy generation.

    It is frustrating when you see the AI make such blatant illogical decisions in every game. Decisions so blatant you wonder how it got past testing. Then, frustration kicks in when EA says they are happy with the game play. I wish they released the game they were playing, because I'm not sure what they are happy about.

  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    5 years of next gen with a development team of 200+ and this is what we get.

    there is no chance they have a dev team of 200+ ... not unless they are simultaneously working on many other games at the same time.

    "Ramjagsingh leads a team of about 250 people in Burnaby who work only on the NHL game with an average age in the low 30s."

    Source: https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/stu-cowan-designing-nhl-video-games-for-a-living-sure-looks-like-fun

    Edit: Oops... shouldn't have doubted @Taste-D-Rainbow . He's a smart cookie! ;)

    I mean, we can argue that maybe 250 aren't just "devs", but as they so often like to point out, it's not just the Devs working on this game. There's an art department (probably devided into many parts like 3D models, 2D textures, Animations, etc). There's probably an online department, a physics department as well. There's obviously a Research & Marketing department that tells the rest what "the people" want... Still they ALL make the game as a team. You don't see the Art Department at The Coalition touting "Yeah, Gears 5 is good because of our textures! We're only 10 in our department, so the game is made by a small team!" LOL

    Whether there are 200 or 150 or even just 30 people dedicated to pure coding, they're all part of the same team of 250 (or more) people that work on this game every year. That's no "small team".

    I wasn't questioning Taste. I'm questioning what Rammer and EA is saying. I have friends in the industry, been around gaming for decades, etc... Dedicated teams of 250+ are for AAA titles with budgets near 100million USD, expectations of revenue in the 100s of millions over a 2-3 year period. At this point I would doubt NHL has more than 30-50 million in sales each year. FIFA probably has close to a billion.

    If you told me FIFA team a team that large, I would be a bit surprised since that is an annually released game with very little change from year to year. BUT the revenue would justify it. FIFA has to have a revenue 10-20 times that of NHL.

    Even then it is possible that EA could justify a larger team and less profits to deliver an "EA Sports label product".

    But my point was based on the product we see and the things we hear like "this is niche product without much demand, unlike FIFA, as such they have very limited resources. They have to pick a few things to work on...blah blah blah". Supposedly this is why they only release one or two minor patches each year and many game breaking bugs/features last years.

    Yeah maybe they have 150 artists (interns) working on various colored mouthguards and baseball hats. But there is no way they have a "development team" anything close to the size of traditional AAA title teams. If they do... sorry thats just SAD.

    There's a lot that goes into creating games but usually smaller titles like this have tricks to do more with less. EA is considered by most to be a "profits at all cost" type company and as such I would think they would expect the NHL team to do just that.

    This is why its so frustrating to see the things they have done. Time wasted on things that bring no real value or even worse backfire and end up being a negative. Sure that may not be taking away from gameplay dev time but its sure taking a slice of budget that could have been better spent elsewhere.

    Agree, but I want to touch up a bit on the bold part.

    I do not understand why they went the route of this outdoor rink fiasco knowing full well having 12 different jerseys/parkas or whatever would be absolutely confusing in a 6v6 setting. I also do not get the 2 different modes for 3s, then Ones, etc...

    IMO it would have been logical to instead have other 6v6 modes with different tunings. IE, a tuner for more realism and a tuner for as it is, or maybe even a tuner for more arcade. You still end up with different modes, such as now, but at least those modes would tailor a specific crowd instead of this "let's try to please everyone with one single tuner" mentality.

    I don't know anymore. Seems resources could have been spent more wisely imo and this CHEL stuff is ridiculous, confusing, and very poorly implemented.

    Like I said before, they lack direction. They don't know who to cater to so they try and please everyone yet end up satisfying nobody

    Yea, I know. And that's the biggest issue I have with this game.

    Seems the more casual a player you are, the more you enjoy the game. However, one would think that after 6 years (should have been done by now honestly) EA would go and say "Hey for all you fellow hardcore hockey fans, here is a (tuner, game mode, league, whatever you want to insert) for you guys to enjoy".

    BOOM. Instant satisfaction boost of at least 60% by your user base (if done correctly). Alot of your clients would be like "Wow, EA! You finally listened! Thank-you!"

    No, instead I get face masks, baseball caps and a bajillion parkas to wear on some random pond to hopefully satisfy the hockey purist in me. What a joke. It's basically like saying that whoever is a true hockey fan does not have his place in an EA hockey game with the words "NHL" in it. This isn't Backyard Hockey 2019, no??

    You don't have to play drop-ins. The more hardcore players are probably in 6s where you don't have any of the casual gear. There were many requests for an outdoor rink. There were also requests for more customization. Not everyone is happy about it, but seeing as how a very high number of people use the casual gear in drop-ins, it seems to be pretty popular. It would be nice to have an outdoor setting for club games. I'd like that as well. Regardless, there is a way for hardcore players to play together in club games.

    What would you change to make the game satisfy the hardcore crowd better?

    I play club very regularly, but I also play a decent amount of dropins. The dropin portion is horrible and much better suited for a Ones scenario, not a team scenario. When it comes to LG, which I no longer play, it is sometimes a struggle to find club games which is when I will usually dropin.

    As for what would I change? Easy question to answer actually. Go back to the exact same settings and tuning of the first day of the NHL 19 beta. This would also fix LT abuse as it was extremely hard to hog the puck during those first few days. That would be an excellent starting point to actually bringing this game to resemble more its real-life counterpart. Next up would be to polish and clean up the AI intelligence. AI goalies right now are just horrible and the D AI has extreme difficulties navigating near its net.
    Need to tune the pass interceptions. Right now it is ridiculous how so many players are cleanly picking off passes with their backs to the play. The new puck pickup animations, imo, are hindering and what is causing so many clean interceptions.

    Also, when I choose LD in EASHL and my RD bails on me, the replacing AI always jacks my LD position as his default path on the breakout. Alot of times he actually hinders me and goes into my skating path. It is extremely evident and you can replicate this in mere seconds in any single EASHL game. Whether the AI replaces a bailed human, or is there from the start, he jacks my position.The only way he won't jack it on the breakout is if I am ahead of him and breaking out very aggressively, which I strongly advise not to do. Jacks my position as well in my zone, but not as aggressively. Been exactly like this since NHL 14.

    That is what I suggest right off the top of my head to getting this game more in tune to how I want it to play.

    As for the many requests for an outdoor rink, you are correct in saying many people requested it. Sadly, it was more along the lines of a club format in a Winter Classic setting. Not a casual Levi's jeans/parka setting in some farm or in the mountains with backup alarms and helicopters in the background.

    You make some great points. The feedback is definitely appreciated.

    LT shouldn't be overused as it previously was. I haven't noticed it as much since the change went in place recently. I know many of you don't believe it, but 19 was reverted almost back to the beta. What you have to consider is that over time, people were getting better at the new mechanics. This helped with the feeling the beta was a lot different than 19 after the tuner that reverted the beta settings.

    We'll have to wait and see what's in store for the AI as and pick-ups. I know the dev team is quite aware of the feedback on both of those.

    It would be good to see a more hardcore, outdoor setting. I'll agree with you there, but on the other hand, the casual gear has been pretty popular. The hardcore crowd makes up a pretty small part of the playerbase and are heavily listened to, but we also can't have a game that only caters to casual or hardcore. Hence, club games being for the more hardcore and drop-ins being for more casual players. Hopefully, we'll see something more akin to the Winter Classic for club games in the future. I know I'd prefer that as well to the drop-in atmosphere. However, I can definitely see the appeal with more casual players as it's pretty popular in games these days to be able to customize your look and try to stand out.

    There have been complaints about drop-ins for years. Regardless of the setting, the gameplay has always been very different than club games. That's not something we have a lot of control over. It's a good way for newer and more casual players to learn the game and get used to playing with others. I know when EASHL first released, I was pretty bad transitioning from playing as the whole team to just one position. It took time to learn proper positioning and how to patrol your area of the ice. Learning simple things like when to hit and poke, how to manage your energy, building chemistry with teammates, etc. We all start somewhere. Of course, the other issue would be the trolls. Sadly, they will most likely always be a problem no matter the game.

    I'll have to keep an eye out for the AI D man. I play RD usually and often sometimes with an AI LD. I haven't noticed them on my side or out of position much in general. Are you saying when you breakout and are ahead of them, they come over to the left side of the ice and leave the right side undefended?

    Thanks again for all the feedback.
  • I haven't seen anyone on here or reddit have anything positive to say about the gear and the options (or lack thereof) for the 6's drop in. The bulk of that crowd does not like what you did to them. Most of us are club players, but don't always have our clubs available...hence drop in. Even online people complain about the rinks and lack of teams to pick from. Sorry, you guys are missing the mark on this one.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    5 years of next gen with a development team of 200+ and this is what we get.

    there is no chance they have a dev team of 200+ ... not unless they are simultaneously working on many other games at the same time.

    "Ramjagsingh leads a team of about 250 people in Burnaby who work only on the NHL game with an average age in the low 30s."

    Source: https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/stu-cowan-designing-nhl-video-games-for-a-living-sure-looks-like-fun

    Edit: Oops... shouldn't have doubted @Taste-D-Rainbow . He's a smart cookie! ;)

    I mean, we can argue that maybe 250 aren't just "devs", but as they so often like to point out, it's not just the Devs working on this game. There's an art department (probably devided into many parts like 3D models, 2D textures, Animations, etc). There's probably an online department, a physics department as well. There's obviously a Research & Marketing department that tells the rest what "the people" want... Still they ALL make the game as a team. You don't see the Art Department at The Coalition touting "Yeah, Gears 5 is good because of our textures! We're only 10 in our department, so the game is made by a small team!" LOL

    Whether there are 200 or 150 or even just 30 people dedicated to pure coding, they're all part of the same team of 250 (or more) people that work on this game every year. That's no "small team".

    I wasn't questioning Taste. I'm questioning what Rammer and EA is saying. I have friends in the industry, been around gaming for decades, etc... Dedicated teams of 250+ are for AAA titles with budgets near 100million USD, expectations of revenue in the 100s of millions over a 2-3 year period. At this point I would doubt NHL has more than 30-50 million in sales each year. FIFA probably has close to a billion.

    If you told me FIFA team a team that large, I would be a bit surprised since that is an annually released game with very little change from year to year. BUT the revenue would justify it. FIFA has to have a revenue 10-20 times that of NHL.

    Even then it is possible that EA could justify a larger team and less profits to deliver an "EA Sports label product".

    But my point was based on the product we see and the things we hear like "this is niche product without much demand, unlike FIFA, as such they have very limited resources. They have to pick a few things to work on...blah blah blah". Supposedly this is why they only release one or two minor patches each year and many game breaking bugs/features last years.

    Yeah maybe they have 150 artists (interns) working on various colored mouthguards and baseball hats. But there is no way they have a "development team" anything close to the size of traditional AAA title teams. If they do... sorry thats just SAD.

    There's a lot that goes into creating games but usually smaller titles like this have tricks to do more with less. EA is considered by most to be a "profits at all cost" type company and as such I would think they would expect the NHL team to do just that.

    This is why its so frustrating to see the things they have done. Time wasted on things that bring no real value or even worse backfire and end up being a negative. Sure that may not be taking away from gameplay dev time but its sure taking a slice of budget that could have been better spent elsewhere.

    Agree, but I want to touch up a bit on the bold part.

    I do not understand why they went the route of this outdoor rink fiasco knowing full well having 12 different jerseys/parkas or whatever would be absolutely confusing in a 6v6 setting. I also do not get the 2 different modes for 3s, then Ones, etc...

    IMO it would have been logical to instead have other 6v6 modes with different tunings. IE, a tuner for more realism and a tuner for as it is, or maybe even a tuner for more arcade. You still end up with different modes, such as now, but at least those modes would tailor a specific crowd instead of this "let's try to please everyone with one single tuner" mentality.

    I don't know anymore. Seems resources could have been spent more wisely imo and this CHEL stuff is ridiculous, confusing, and very poorly implemented.

    Like I said before, they lack direction. They don't know who to cater to so they try and please everyone yet end up satisfying nobody

    Yea, I know. And that's the biggest issue I have with this game.

    Seems the more casual a player you are, the more you enjoy the game. However, one would think that after 6 years (should have been done by now honestly) EA would go and say "Hey for all you fellow hardcore hockey fans, here is a (tuner, game mode, league, whatever you want to insert) for you guys to enjoy".

    BOOM. Instant satisfaction boost of at least 60% by your user base (if done correctly). Alot of your clients would be like "Wow, EA! You finally listened! Thank-you!"

    No, instead I get face masks, baseball caps and a bajillion parkas to wear on some random pond to hopefully satisfy the hockey purist in me. What a joke. It's basically like saying that whoever is a true hockey fan does not have his place in an EA hockey game with the words "NHL" in it. This isn't Backyard Hockey 2019, no??

    You don't have to play drop-ins. The more hardcore players are probably in 6s where you don't have any of the casual gear. There were many requests for an outdoor rink. There were also requests for more customization. Not everyone is happy about it, but seeing as how a very high number of people use the casual gear in drop-ins, it seems to be pretty popular. It would be nice to have an outdoor setting for club games. I'd like that as well. Regardless, there is a way for hardcore players to play together in club games.

    What would you change to make the game satisfy the hardcore crowd better?

    this game in no way caters to the casual player. its likely the most difficult sports game for a casual player to pick up and be any good at it. Its the primary reason drop in is a nightmare and has gone from NHLs best feature to its worst.

    The game is less forgiving than ever except in one way, goalies are complete garbage.

    "good" teams completely dominate mediocre to bad teams more than ever.

    I've played 1000s of club games over the years but its a poorly implemented system. Its what lead to many people spending much more time in drop in until EA destroyed drop in and turned it into the laughing stock of video gaming world.

    Club is still a total mess. The matchmaking is a mess, no good controls over who and how you play in club, there's no "practice" capabilities, there's no lobby/community system for "public club", the list of faults goes on and on.

    Other than 3rd party league communities, there's no way to meet people in this game yet club is essentially where a group would get together and compete in anything other than clown hockey on ice surfaces where you can't see anything in a game full of trolls and just down right awful hockey players.

    100s of suggestions as to how to improve things are sent out every year in 100s of threads. The only ones I ever see get into the game are usually the worst ones or EA goes it's own route, deviating from the suggestions and poorly implements them.

    I think there are ways the game helps casual players. At least for offline modes. There are also simplistic controls for those that aren't ready for the skill stick setting. They can play offline and get the controls down before moving online. It's definitely a complex game to learn, but that's not just controls. You need to learn the game of hockey. How it plays, how it flows, etc. So much of it just comes with experience. Most of us have been playing this game for a very long time. It's hard to remember when things weren't just muscle memory and instinct.

    I can't agree that goalies are garbage. If they were, we wouldn't get complaints that one team's goalie plays lights out and the other lets in beach balls from the blue line. I think you see a lot less bad goals than in previous years, but bad goals are also a part of hockey. They're going to happen. I'm not saying goalies are perfect by any means, but they're far from garbage. In my own games, I hear people complain how we just got "EA'd" when it was a pretty decent play that caused the goal and was more the result of a combination of good offense beating the defense. It's just rare someone actually admits to legitimately getting beat. It's a lot easier to blame the AI, ice tilt, etc. One thing that does bug me about goalies is the occasional occurrence where they have a hard time covering the puck. I know that's something the dev team knows about so hopefully we'll see it improved.

    Shouldn't good teams be dominating bad teams? Doesn't that also go against the ice tilt theory?

    I met the club I've been with for 10 years in drop-ins. I've also met a number of people by playing drop-ins since the change to outdoor rinks in 19. It's the same way I met people when we had the old lobby system. I think things could be improved for public clubs, but you're still able to accomplish the same thing as the old system. What would you add to public clubs to make them more friendly for communication?

    What issues are you seeing with matchmaking?
  • Ampereturn
    96 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , could you please explain, why godlike AI players, especially Malone, Rhodes, Bates or Peters are occurring in EASHL Drop-In game? Have you ever played against these cheaters? Really nice competition when they are winning games and scoring hat tricks for guys who don't even know how to skate. You destroyed the whole Drop-In game! And then we should not think of the DDA/ice tilt being present in the game!

    Are you saying the AI players in EASHL are now cheaters? How often are you seeing them get hatties? Are there just 2 human D and 3 AI forwards? They can be pretty deadly when going against an opposing team that doesn't know how to defend against AI players. You can't play them the same as you can human players. So, if you play a very high-pressure style of play against them, you're going to leave open lanes for them to exploit. Regardless, the AI players are not boosted. They react to the strategies that are set for them as well as what the human-controlled players are doing.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , yes, I'm saying, that they are like "cheaters", because "you can't play them the same as you can human players." They have superhuman abilities and that is completely wrong. Please, tell me what kind of competition is it when players of the losing team are disconnecting, because they cannot beat us, they are replaced by AI players with superhuman abilities scoring hat tricks and make miracle comeback? Players without skills are rewarded. Why??? This is Drop-In game, in most cases we are playing together as a team for the first time. The philosophy behind that is completely wrong. If you play with AI, you should be at a disadvantage, not an advantage. This kind of AI players should be toned-down, otherwise I suggest at least 4 human players on each side (not 2) to play 6v6 Drop-in game. Please, consider this. Thank you in advance!

    The AI players don't have superhuman abilities, but they can react faster than humans at times. You definitely have to play them differently. They look for open lanes for passes and shots. If you chase them, as many people do in drop-ins, that's just going to open up lanes for them to make quick passes to. Which of course generates excellent scoring chances. When you have guys on your side that know how to shut down AI players, they are most certainly beatable.

    @EA_Aljo, thank you for your response.

    Here we are again. "They can react faster than humans at times". I'm just wondering, why my player cannot react faster at times. If I do not have the same abilities as they have, they are definitely cheaters as I said. I do not chase them, I know how to play them and they are as you said beatable. But, are you sure that this is good idea for random drop-in game? Are you sure, that in random match you have guys on you side that know how to shut them down? Just one who doesn't know and we lost for sure! I think, you still don't understand, that you are rewarding players who quit the game and punishing players who decided to stay and basically already won.
    Now, I will share my experience from the last game, that was really funny. Our team: G, C, LD so 3 players. Other side: full, 6 players P3 and above. They played very well, but they couldn't stop Bates (LW) and Malone (RW). Their goalie had no chance (human). He was sniped several times, that was surgical. Bates scored 5 and Malone 3. We won 8:1, I was a goalie, watching it with a smile on my face and I recorded credit +20. We did not have to use any skills. What to say, job well done. Thank you!
  • straitrypien
    23 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    There is no defence and if you use the poke check it’s a trip to the penalty box.

    Technically you're not supposed to use poke checking for defense. Not in the context everyone seems to be wanting to use it, in any case. This game series has taught players that this is the way it's supposed to be used, because REAL defense is actually much more simple and, by proxy, a lot more "boring" as real defense is 95% positioning. If you're gonna just mash poke check because you want the puck back then you SHOULD be getting called for that. I'm more ticked off that the EA devs thought nerfing the DSS in this same manner was a good idea...

    What do you mean you're technically not suppose to use poke check for defense? You literally can not use the poke check button any other time than playing defense.... also glitchers are not penalized for spamming glitch goals so why limit the poke checks? I use the poke check and complain about the absurd amount of penalties it brings but I also didnt complain about being poke checked before they decided to turn it into a penalty button. EA destroyed this NHL "simulator". I still manage to keep a positive record but a good chunk of my losses DO NOT COME FROM BEING OUT PLAYED. They come from glitchers who cant deke to save their life and would throw a breakaway away just to try and wait for a one-timer.... I wonder why.

    [Socair - edited for profanity]
    Post edited by Socair on
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    jrago73 wrote: »
    You can't just say people are using the custom clothes so they must like it. People have to use the custom clothes because they have to play those modes. They have to play those modes because you can't find matchups in club 6's (xbox Anyway) due to a busted matchmaker (2 years now) and a population that is spread is too thin playing 8 different game modes. A lack of options does not mean what's left over is "enjoyed". Enable voting for traditional vs. outside rinks for dropins then come back and tell us how loved it is based on what is chosen.

    As for how we got here in the first place its yet another instance of EA hearing what they want instead of what's being said. People essentially wanted a winter classic game option for dropins and EA turned it into an entire involuntary circus that also includes outdoor rinks. The people weren't asking for individual clothing for every player, they weren't asking for voice lines or pre game dance routines or music you can't turn off and the one clear and nearly universal piece of feedback is that we dang sure don't want shadows stretched out over half of the rink yet those are still there for some reason too.

    The way EA interprets feedback I half expect dropins to be a black screen next year where you can't see the game because "players didn't enjoy the differences in lighting levels on the rink".

    I'm not basing what I said purely on people using the cosmetic gear. We hear from people through a variety of channels. However, it also makes sense that due to the high number of people using it, it's quite possible they're enjoying it. The hardcore crowd here may not feel the same. You also probably have friends that feel the same as you. Which is kind of why you're friends. You guys have things in common. Regardless, you're not forced to use the masks and more creative equipment.

    I definitely get that you weren't asking for the outdoor setting and the festival atmosphere that came with it. You also don't have to use the more exaggerated pre-game animations. Personally, my player just kind of stands there, but my friends like the more fun introductions. Again though, you have to consider there's a wider audience beyond these forums. I truly hope a more authentic, Winter Classic type setting gets added to the game to satisfy those that don't like the current setting.
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , could you please explain, why godlike AI players, especially Malone, Rhodes, Bates or Peters are occurring in EASHL Drop-In game? Have you ever played against these cheaters? Really nice competition when they are winning games and scoring hat tricks for guys who don't even know how to skate. You destroyed the whole Drop-In game! And then we should not think of the DDA/ice tilt being present in the game!

    Are you saying the AI players in EASHL are now cheaters? How often are you seeing them get hatties? Are there just 2 human D and 3 AI forwards? They can be pretty deadly when going against an opposing team that doesn't know how to defend against AI players. You can't play them the same as you can human players. So, if you play a very high-pressure style of play against them, you're going to leave open lanes for them to exploit. Regardless, the AI players are not boosted. They react to the strategies that are set for them as well as what the human-controlled players are doing.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , yes, I'm saying, that they are like "cheaters", because "you can't play them the same as you can human players." They have superhuman abilities and that is completely wrong. Please, tell me what kind of competition is it when players of the losing team are disconnecting, because they cannot beat us, they are replaced by AI players with superhuman abilities scoring hat tricks and make miracle comeback? Players without skills are rewarded. Why??? This is Drop-In game, in most cases we are playing together as a team for the first time. The philosophy behind that is completely wrong. If you play with AI, you should be at a disadvantage, not an advantage. This kind of AI players should be toned-down, otherwise I suggest at least 4 human players on each side (not 2) to play 6v6 Drop-in game. Please, consider this. Thank you in advance!

    The AI players don't have superhuman abilities, but they can react faster than humans at times. You definitely have to play them differently. They look for open lanes for passes and shots. If you chase them, as many people do in drop-ins, that's just going to open up lanes for them to make quick passes to. Which of course generates excellent scoring chances. When you have guys on your side that know how to shut down AI players, they are most certainly beatable.

    @EA_Aljo, thank you for your response.

    Here we are again. "They can react faster than humans at times". I'm just wondering, why my player cannot react faster at times. If I do not have the same abilities as they have, they are definitely cheaters as I said. I do not chase them, I know how to play them and they are as you said beatable. But, are you sure that this is good idea for random drop-in game? Are you sure, that in random match you have guys on you side that know how to shut them down? Just one who doesn't know and we lost for sure! I think, you still don't understand, that you are rewarding players who quit the game and punishing players who decided to stay and basically already won.
    Now, I will share my experience from the last game, that was really funny. Our team: G, C, LD so 3 players. Other side: full, 6 players P3 and above. They played very well, but they couldn't stop Bates (LW) and Malone (RW). Their goalie had no chance (human). He was sniped several times, that was surgical. Bates scored 5 and Malone 3. We won 8:1, I was a goalie, watching it with a smile on my face and I recorded credit +20. We did not have to use any skills. What to say, job well done. Thank you!

    When I say they react faster, it's because most people don't think to string together one-touch passes. They don't see the series of open lanes as well. It's most definitely not impossible though. While it feels like the computer has superhuman reaction time, people are capable of this also. So, it's not that the computers have boosted abilities and reaction times, but most people don't have the same vision that they do. The computer uses the same functionality as the rest of us, but they also play a lot differently. They don't force as many passes, they use their teammates, they try to pull you out of position so they can generate more scoring chances. Most people go for a more run and gun style of play instead of working to set up good plays. Then, we get the complaints that this game doesn't play like hockey because you can't cycle the puck and work it around. You most definitely can, but many people get frustrated with attempting that so they look for the easy ways to score.

    Bates and Malone aren't untouchable. If the other team let them rack up that many goals, they weren't defending well. If you give them the time and space they need to score, they'll take advantage of that. Putting up 8 goals means they were given said time and space.
  • Kmahrle83
    367 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , could you please explain, why godlike AI players, especially Malone, Rhodes, Bates or Peters are occurring in EASHL Drop-In game? Have you ever played against these cheaters? Really nice competition when they are winning games and scoring hat tricks for guys who don't even know how to skate. You destroyed the whole Drop-In game! And then we should not think of the DDA/ice tilt being present in the game!

    Are you saying the AI players in EASHL are now cheaters? How often are you seeing them get hatties? Are there just 2 human D and 3 AI forwards? They can be pretty deadly when going against an opposing team that doesn't know how to defend against AI players. You can't play them the same as you can human players. So, if you play a very high-pressure style of play against them, you're going to leave open lanes for them to exploit. Regardless, the AI players are not boosted. They react to the strategies that are set for them as well as what the human-controlled players are doing.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , yes, I'm saying, that they are like "cheaters", because "you can't play them the same as you can human players." They have superhuman abilities and that is completely wrong. Please, tell me what kind of competition is it when players of the losing team are disconnecting, because they cannot beat us, they are replaced by AI players with superhuman abilities scoring hat tricks and make miracle comeback? Players without skills are rewarded. Why??? This is Drop-In game, in most cases we are playing together as a team for the first time. The philosophy behind that is completely wrong. If you play with AI, you should be at a disadvantage, not an advantage. This kind of AI players should be toned-down, otherwise I suggest at least 4 human players on each side (not 2) to play 6v6 Drop-in game. Please, consider this. Thank you in advance!

    The AI players don't have superhuman abilities, but they can react faster than humans at times. You definitely have to play them differently. They look for open lanes for passes and shots. If you chase them, as many people do in drop-ins, that's just going to open up lanes for them to make quick passes to. Which of course generates excellent scoring chances. When you have guys on your side that know how to shut down AI players, they are most certainly beatable.

    @EA_Aljo, thank you for your response.

    Here we are again. "They can react faster than humans at times". I'm just wondering, why my player cannot react faster at times. If I do not have the same abilities as they have, they are definitely cheaters as I said. I do not chase them, I know how to play them and they are as you said beatable. But, are you sure that this is good idea for random drop-in game? Are you sure, that in random match you have guys on you side that know how to shut them down? Just one who doesn't know and we lost for sure! I think, you still don't understand, that you are rewarding players who quit the game and punishing players who decided to stay and basically already won.
    Now, I will share my experience from the last game, that was really funny. Our team: G, C, LD so 3 players. Other side: full, 6 players P3 and above. They played very well, but they couldn't stop Bates (LW) and Malone (RW). Their goalie had no chance (human). He was sniped several times, that was surgical. Bates scored 5 and Malone 3. We won 8:1, I was a goalie, watching it with a smile on my face and I recorded credit +20. We did not have to use any skills. What to say, job well done. Thank you!

    When I say they react faster, it's because most people don't think to string together one-touch passes. They don't see the series of open lanes as well. It's most definitely not impossible though. While it feels like the computer has superhuman reaction time, people are capable of this also. So, it's not that the computers have boosted abilities and reaction times, but most people don't have the same vision that they do. The computer uses the same functionality as the rest of us, but they also play a lot differently. They don't force as many passes, they use their teammates, they try to pull you out of position so they can generate more scoring chances. Most people go for a more run and gun style of play instead of working to set up good plays. Then, we get the complaints that this game doesn't play like hockey because you can't cycle the puck and work it around. You most definitely can, but many people get frustrated with attempting that so they look for the easy ways to score.

    Bates and Malone aren't untouchable. If the other team let them rack up that many goals, they weren't defending well. If you give them the time and space they need to score, they'll take advantage of that. Putting up 8 goals means they were given said time and space.

    No, putting up 8 goals using the same strategy over and over is crap because no matter how well you defend he's still gonna get off a shot here and there, and you have NO control over whether the goalie stops it or not. The problem isn't them getting shots off. The problem is that they can take the same cheap shot all game and be successful because the goalie isn't programmed right. You can't literally hold them to 0 shots all the time but if they take 4 shots and score on 3 if them, that's not my failure to play defence... That's eas failure to program goalies that don't let the same weak stuff in over and over.

    You can say it's our fault all you want (which is clearly your answer for everything) but in a full game you can't stop every shot but when they can score 3 goals in 4 weak attempts because there goalie can't stop it, HOW is that on me for playing bad d. The defense job is to minimize chances. The goalies job is to stop those minimal chances. Problem is, the goalies are made of pudding.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    5 years of next gen with a development team of 200+ and this is what we get.

    there is no chance they have a dev team of 200+ ... not unless they are simultaneously working on many other games at the same time.

    "Ramjagsingh leads a team of about 250 people in Burnaby who work only on the NHL game with an average age in the low 30s."

    Source: https://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/stu-cowan-designing-nhl-video-games-for-a-living-sure-looks-like-fun

    Edit: Oops... shouldn't have doubted @Taste-D-Rainbow . He's a smart cookie! ;)

    I mean, we can argue that maybe 250 aren't just "devs", but as they so often like to point out, it's not just the Devs working on this game. There's an art department (probably devided into many parts like 3D models, 2D textures, Animations, etc). There's probably an online department, a physics department as well. There's obviously a Research & Marketing department that tells the rest what "the people" want... Still they ALL make the game as a team. You don't see the Art Department at The Coalition touting "Yeah, Gears 5 is good because of our textures! We're only 10 in our department, so the game is made by a small team!" LOL

    Whether there are 200 or 150 or even just 30 people dedicated to pure coding, they're all part of the same team of 250 (or more) people that work on this game every year. That's no "small team".

    I wasn't questioning Taste. I'm questioning what Rammer and EA is saying. I have friends in the industry, been around gaming for decades, etc... Dedicated teams of 250+ are for AAA titles with budgets near 100million USD, expectations of revenue in the 100s of millions over a 2-3 year period. At this point I would doubt NHL has more than 30-50 million in sales each year. FIFA probably has close to a billion.

    If you told me FIFA team a team that large, I would be a bit surprised since that is an annually released game with very little change from year to year. BUT the revenue would justify it. FIFA has to have a revenue 10-20 times that of NHL.

    Even then it is possible that EA could justify a larger team and less profits to deliver an "EA Sports label product".

    But my point was based on the product we see and the things we hear like "this is niche product without much demand, unlike FIFA, as such they have very limited resources. They have to pick a few things to work on...blah blah blah". Supposedly this is why they only release one or two minor patches each year and many game breaking bugs/features last years.

    Yeah maybe they have 150 artists (interns) working on various colored mouthguards and baseball hats. But there is no way they have a "development team" anything close to the size of traditional AAA title teams. If they do... sorry thats just SAD.

    There's a lot that goes into creating games but usually smaller titles like this have tricks to do more with less. EA is considered by most to be a "profits at all cost" type company and as such I would think they would expect the NHL team to do just that.

    This is why its so frustrating to see the things they have done. Time wasted on things that bring no real value or even worse backfire and end up being a negative. Sure that may not be taking away from gameplay dev time but its sure taking a slice of budget that could have been better spent elsewhere.

    Agree, but I want to touch up a bit on the bold part.

    I do not understand why they went the route of this outdoor rink fiasco knowing full well having 12 different jerseys/parkas or whatever would be absolutely confusing in a 6v6 setting. I also do not get the 2 different modes for 3s, then Ones, etc...

    IMO it would have been logical to instead have other 6v6 modes with different tunings. IE, a tuner for more realism and a tuner for as it is, or maybe even a tuner for more arcade. You still end up with different modes, such as now, but at least those modes would tailor a specific crowd instead of this "let's try to please everyone with one single tuner" mentality.

    I don't know anymore. Seems resources could have been spent more wisely imo and this CHEL stuff is ridiculous, confusing, and very poorly implemented.

    Like I said before, they lack direction. They don't know who to cater to so they try and please everyone yet end up satisfying nobody

    Yea, I know. And that's the biggest issue I have with this game.

    Seems the more casual a player you are, the more you enjoy the game. However, one would think that after 6 years (should have been done by now honestly) EA would go and say "Hey for all you fellow hardcore hockey fans, here is a (tuner, game mode, league, whatever you want to insert) for you guys to enjoy".

    BOOM. Instant satisfaction boost of at least 60% by your user base (if done correctly). Alot of your clients would be like "Wow, EA! You finally listened! Thank-you!"

    No, instead I get face masks, baseball caps and a bajillion parkas to wear on some random pond to hopefully satisfy the hockey purist in me. What a joke. It's basically like saying that whoever is a true hockey fan does not have his place in an EA hockey game with the words "NHL" in it. This isn't Backyard Hockey 2019, no??

    You don't have to play drop-ins. The more hardcore players are probably in 6s where you don't have any of the casual gear. There were many requests for an outdoor rink. There were also requests for more customization. Not everyone is happy about it, but seeing as how a very high number of people use the casual gear in drop-ins, it seems to be pretty popular. It would be nice to have an outdoor setting for club games. I'd like that as well. Regardless, there is a way for hardcore players to play together in club games.

    What would you change to make the game satisfy the hardcore crowd better?

    I play club very regularly, but I also play a decent amount of dropins. The dropin portion is horrible and much better suited for a Ones scenario, not a team scenario. When it comes to LG, which I no longer play, it is sometimes a struggle to find club games which is when I will usually dropin.

    As for what would I change? Easy question to answer actually. Go back to the exact same settings and tuning of the first day of the NHL 19 beta. This would also fix LT abuse as it was extremely hard to hog the puck during those first few days. That would be an excellent starting point to actually bringing this game to resemble more its real-life counterpart. Next up would be to polish and clean up the AI intelligence. AI goalies right now are just horrible and the D AI has extreme difficulties navigating near its net.
    Need to tune the pass interceptions. Right now it is ridiculous how so many players are cleanly picking off passes with their backs to the play. The new puck pickup animations, imo, are hindering and what is causing so many clean interceptions.

    Also, when I choose LD in EASHL and my RD bails on me, the replacing AI always jacks my LD position as his default path on the breakout. Alot of times he actually hinders me and goes into my skating path. It is extremely evident and you can replicate this in mere seconds in any single EASHL game. Whether the AI replaces a bailed human, or is there from the start, he jacks my position.The only way he won't jack it on the breakout is if I am ahead of him and breaking out very aggressively, which I strongly advise not to do. Jacks my position as well in my zone, but not as aggressively. Been exactly like this since NHL 14.

    That is what I suggest right off the top of my head to getting this game more in tune to how I want it to play.

    As for the many requests for an outdoor rink, you are correct in saying many people requested it. Sadly, it was more along the lines of a club format in a Winter Classic setting. Not a casual Levi's jeans/parka setting in some farm or in the mountains with backup alarms and helicopters in the background.

    You make some great points. The feedback is definitely appreciated.

    LT shouldn't be overused as it previously was. I haven't noticed it as much since the change went in place recently. I know many of you don't believe it, but 19 was reverted almost back to the beta. What you have to consider is that over time, people were getting better at the new mechanics. This helped with the feeling the beta was a lot different than 19 after the tuner that reverted the beta settings.

    We'll have to wait and see what's in store for the AI as and pick-ups. I know the dev team is quite aware of the feedback on both of those.

    It would be good to see a more hardcore, outdoor setting. I'll agree with you there, but on the other hand, the casual gear has been pretty popular. The hardcore crowd makes up a pretty small part of the playerbase and are heavily listened to, but we also can't have a game that only caters to casual or hardcore. Hence, club games being for the more hardcore and drop-ins being for more casual players. Hopefully, we'll see something more akin to the Winter Classic for club games in the future. I know I'd prefer that as well to the drop-in atmosphere. However, I can definitely see the appeal with more casual players as it's pretty popular in games these days to be able to customize your look and try to stand out.

    There have been complaints about drop-ins for years. Regardless of the setting, the gameplay has always been very different than club games. That's not something we have a lot of control over. It's a good way for newer and more casual players to learn the game and get used to playing with others. I know when EASHL first released, I was pretty bad transitioning from playing as the whole team to just one position. It took time to learn proper positioning and how to patrol your area of the ice. Learning simple things like when to hit and poke, how to manage your energy, building chemistry with teammates, etc. We all start somewhere. Of course, the other issue would be the trolls. Sadly, they will most likely always be a problem no matter the game.

    I'll have to keep an eye out for the AI D man. I play RD usually and often sometimes with an AI LD. I haven't noticed them on my side or out of position much in general. Are you saying when you breakout and are ahead of them, they come over to the left side of the ice and leave the right side undefended?

    Thanks again for all the feedback.

    You are correct when you say the rollback in 19 was very close to the beta settings. However, the AI goalies were clearly never returned to their effectiveness. The AI goalies were far superior during the beta, and clearly still are even after another release, NHL 20. Also, a change during the beta that was never returned to its original state is the skating tuned to player class. I know, it was a necessary change seeing how Enforcers were almost as agile as Snipers, I still dislike the feeling of RPM after this change. I find myself sometimes getting caught up in an unwanted or quirky quarter pivot at weird times. It has basically made RPM feel more like TPS, although RPM is still far superior over TPS. I remember having 0 issues with weird or unwanted pivots during the beta and in fact, it was one of the things that stood out the most for me at that time.

    I am not requesting a more hardcore setting for outdoor games per say. Rather, I would rather a more hardcore realistic tuner that is catered to people who wish to play a much more sim-oriented style of play. With the current tuner it is impossible to please everyone. Purists find it too arcade and the arcade players find it too sim. Clearly the solution is to make a tuner for the arcade players and a tuner for the sim players. Would have made more sense to fracture the community that way instead of introducing two different 3s modes, at least, in my opinion. At this point with all the modes available the community is too fractured to take a hit with 2 clearly distinct tunings/play styles. Maybe cross platform would come in at some point and alleviate all this.

    You are also correct when you say dropins are basically a school yard where newer players can come in and get to learn the ins and outs. I am not disputing that. I have no problems if I have a bad player on my team so long as he is trying and using some common sense. But when I see my RD who decides he is the next Ovechkin and this, from the very first faceoff, that is where I will not tolerate it and will move on to another game. If you pick a position, I fully expect you to play to the best of your abilities (regardless of best player or scrub) and respect your position so that I can concentrate on what I need to do for my position.
    I also understand your point about player customization and how usually players love that stuff. My point was that it makes 0 sense to have 12 players on the ice all deciding what they want to wear. So to fix that, last year we had team black vs team white Adidas. This year it is team grey vs team black Adidas. There was some discussion here about separating lights from darks since the 19 beta, yet we have not seen that fix yet. In the end, I couldn't care if my team had some Calgary, Phoenix and L.A jerseys on their players so long as they are all white. Just like in a beer league. I would be fine with that, but that option has yet to arrive. If resources were put in to get to that fix asap, it would make sense to have and add all this customization. It is severely lacking in 6s dropins.

    As for the AI D man jacking my position...

    I have a tendency in dropins to be the last player into the offensive zone. I will usually cross the blue line at least 1-2 full seconds after the puck is deep in the zone, or if puck possession is very clear. I have seen too many turnovers hence I am cautious. I have no issues stepping up on the attack when the play calls for it, but I am defensive-minded first. My priority is to cut down my goals against way before I rack up points.

    That being said, if the AI D is starting to break out, I am usually slightly behind and working my way up to the offensive zone. That is where the AI jacks my position. It seems he will put a priority over filling in the "void" I have created by entering the zone cautiously. In fact, this priority seems more important than playing his own position and filling in his own "void" by not being where he should be. Alot of times I will enter the zone and be near the blue line, pretty much shoulder to shoulder with my AI D partner and this could last a good 3-4 seconds before he realizes this and will scoot over to his side.

    In my experience over the years it is so evident and intrusive that I will purposely choose RD as my position when I want to play LD and I will do this only if I am 100% guaranteed to have an AI D man. By doing so, the AI D is jacking my position on RD leaving me the freedom I need on LD. He won't even attempt at any point to "take back his position" on LD and will be content to fill in on RD.
    When going back to our defensive zone, he will attempt to take over on my side but will react more quickly than in the offensive zone and take back his position on his side, but will always attempt to jack my position first.

    In either case, I have seen this with the default strategies and with people messing around and spamming strats. Either way it seems to change nothing in how the AI acts on D.

    I doubt I am one of the very few that this would happen to. But if need be, and I really mean, if need be, then I will post a short video that shows this. But as I said, it is painfully obvious, at least, on my screen. I would extremely hate to have to record and post the video, but for the sake of improving the game, then I will post it if this is required.
  • I doubt I am one of the very few that this would happen to. But if need be, and I really mean, if need be, then I will post a short video that shows this. But as I said, it is painfully obvious, at least, on my screen. I would extremely hate to have to record and post the video, but for the sake of improving the game, then I will post it if this is required.

    I play also as a LD and see that AI error way too often.
  • Greyinsi wrote: »
    I doubt I am one of the very few that this would happen to. But if need be, and I really mean, if need be, then I will post a short video that shows this. But as I said, it is painfully obvious, at least, on my screen. I would extremely hate to have to record and post the video, but for the sake of improving the game, then I will post it if this is required.

    I play also as a LD and see that AI error way too often.

    Knew I wasn't crazy...yet lol. Getting there, but haven't arrived yet :smiley:
  • EA_Aljo
    3229 posts EA Community Manager
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's been stated time and time again. There is no DDA or ice tilt. None whatsoever. Games are won and lost based on how the humans holding the controllers are playing as well as the ratings of the players on the ice and the strategies being used. This has been mentioned by game developers and community managers. It's also been discussed with other games that have Ultimate Team. In the end, games are not determined by a script that chooses one side to win when they don't deserve it. If that were the case, it would happen when you win as well.

    We play our own game. It would be incredibly frustrating to not feel like you're controlling the outcome. Not to mention it goes against what we want with fair competition. While player ratings help, in the end, more often than not, the player(s) with more skill are going to win. Not always. There are of course times when one team gets dominated but still pulls out the victory. That happens in the real world as well.

    Ok, I am not going to argue or point fingers. However, I feel the need to point out that way too often, or actually,almost every single game, the AI does not play equal on both teams. There is always a team with better AI and it is mostly evident on the goalies. How one goalie will consistently stand on his head and make absolutely amazing saves whereas the other goalie seemingly struggles with routine saves. It does seem fair though in a way as sometimes I have the all-star AI, other times I have the peewee AI.

    To be clear, I will admit I am one of the people that absolutely does not believe in ice-tilt or DDA in any way. That being said, there is absolutely something going on that makes people feel like there is DDA or some form of tilt. I think that enough people complain about it that it warrants a good looking into and see if you guys can find whatever it is that gives players that perception. In my opinion, it is not people that can't accept losing or will not take accountability for their skill. Too many times, things don't feel organic and feel forced.

    Take into account I base all of this solely on EASHL as this is all I play. But I have seen many people in HUT and/or VS where you can clearly see the AI outplaying the AI on the other team. Certainly does not look balanced when you see the AI stepping up on one team while the AI on the other team seems like its wandering around and not sure where to go or what to do on the ice.

    Goalies, and AI players for that matter, are the same on both ends of the ice in EASHL. HUT is a different story as ratings are involved. Regardless, it's not like both teams are taking the exact same shots or are setting up the same plays. There are different strategies involved as well. One thing that never happens would be the game choosing one goalie to play out of his mind and the other like a beer leaguer. Goalies are identical in EASHL, but the guys playing in front of them may not be. One side is probably defending better and not allowing as many quality shots. I've been in plenty of close games. Which means 2 well-matched teams are playing each other. I've also played in blowouts where one team is heavily outmatched. Either way, it's about how the humans are playing and most definitely not the game deciding the outcome for you.

    I get that people can believe there's a mechanism in place for making games more even, but you're talking about 2 very mismatched teams based on what? Why would the game decide to have one team's AI play so much better than the other? It really doesn't make any sense to have that in the game. Especially not EASHL. There's a very heavy amount of confirmation bias. I see it every time I play, which is mostly daily. Whether it's good friends of mine or drop-ins, people are constantly blaming the game when it's quite clear they're own play is at fault. They say that wasn't offside, that wasn't a charge, that wasn't a trip, that shot shouldn't have gone in, etc. What doesn't change is the AI. They're the same every time but will play differently based on how the humans are playing and what strategies you're using. The human-controlled players make a big difference as they could be calling for bad passes, not getting open, playing way out of position, etc. That's going to affect the AI players.

    When you see one team's defense stepping up, think about what's involved. For one, the carrier is most likely in a good position to be hit. The AI aren't chasing for hits. They choose to do so when it's a good option. A lot of times the carrier could negate that play by passing, changing direction, dekeing or dumping the puck. So many would rather play a run and gun offense instead of make smarter plays involving their teammates. They carry the puck right into traffic. You also will see defense step up more when you make the defensive pressure strategy more aggressive.

    Organic vs forced is a good way to put it. A lot of people force plays instead of being patient and looking to set up good breakouts as well as scoring chances. Forwards take off for the neutral zone as soon as there's a turnover and defenders force passes to them or they call for them from the AI when there's no open lane. In the offensive zone they force passes to the slot for one-timers and abandon their defense who are wide open. Some guys insist on trying to deke their way to glory by forcing themselves through multiple defenders. My point is, you can try to force the game to behave how you want it to or you can slow down the play and pull your opponents out of position with good passing which leads to good scoring chances. That feels a lot more organic, but the lack of patience many people have leads to bad decisions that frequently end up being blamed on the game instead of themselves.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , could you please explain, why godlike AI players, especially Malone, Rhodes, Bates or Peters are occurring in EASHL Drop-In game? Have you ever played against these cheaters? Really nice competition when they are winning games and scoring hat tricks for guys who don't even know how to skate. You destroyed the whole Drop-In game! And then we should not think of the DDA/ice tilt being present in the game!

    Are you saying the AI players in EASHL are now cheaters? How often are you seeing them get hatties? Are there just 2 human D and 3 AI forwards? They can be pretty deadly when going against an opposing team that doesn't know how to defend against AI players. You can't play them the same as you can human players. So, if you play a very high-pressure style of play against them, you're going to leave open lanes for them to exploit. Regardless, the AI players are not boosted. They react to the strategies that are set for them as well as what the human-controlled players are doing.

    Dear @EA_Aljo , yes, I'm saying, that they are like "cheaters", because "you can't play them the same as you can human players." They have superhuman abilities and that is completely wrong. Please, tell me what kind of competition is it when players of the losing team are disconnecting, because they cannot beat us, they are replaced by AI players with superhuman abilities scoring hat tricks and make miracle comeback? Players without skills are rewarded. Why??? This is Drop-In game, in most cases we are playing together as a team for the first time. The philosophy behind that is completely wrong. If you play with AI, you should be at a disadvantage, not an advantage. This kind of AI players should be toned-down, otherwise I suggest at least 4 human players on each side (not 2) to play 6v6 Drop-in game. Please, consider this. Thank you in advance!

    The AI players don't have superhuman abilities, but they can react faster than humans at times. You definitely have to play them differently. They look for open lanes for passes and shots. If you chase them, as many people do in drop-ins, that's just going to open up lanes for them to make quick passes to. Which of course generates excellent scoring chances. When you have guys on your side that know how to shut down AI players, they are most certainly beatable.

    @EA_Aljo, thank you for your response.

    Here we are again. "They can react faster than humans at times". I'm just wondering, why my player cannot react faster at times. If I do not have the same abilities as they have, they are definitely cheaters as I said. I do not chase them, I know how to play them and they are as you said beatable. But, are you sure that this is good idea for random drop-in game? Are you sure, that in random match you have guys on you side that know how to shut them down? Just one who doesn't know and we lost for sure! I think, you still don't understand, that you are rewarding players who quit the game and punishing players who decided to stay and basically already won.
    Now, I will share my experience from the last game, that was really funny. Our team: G, C, LD so 3 players. Other side: full, 6 players P3 and above. They played very well, but they couldn't stop Bates (LW) and Malone (RW). Their goalie had no chance (human). He was sniped several times, that was surgical. Bates scored 5 and Malone 3. We won 8:1, I was a goalie, watching it with a smile on my face and I recorded credit +20. We did not have to use any skills. What to say, job well done. Thank you!

    When I say they react faster, it's because most people don't think to string together one-touch passes. They don't see the series of open lanes as well. It's most definitely not impossible though. While it feels like the computer has superhuman reaction time, people are capable of this also. So, it's not that the computers have boosted abilities and reaction times, but most people don't have the same vision that they do. The computer uses the same functionality as the rest of us, but they also play a lot differently. They don't force as many passes, they use their teammates, they try to pull you out of position so they can generate more scoring chances. Most people go for a more run and gun style of play instead of working to set up good plays. Then, we get the complaints that this game doesn't play like hockey because you can't cycle the puck and work it around. You most definitely can, but many people get frustrated with attempting that so they look for the easy ways to score.

    Bates and Malone aren't untouchable. If the other team let them rack up that many goals, they weren't defending well. If you give them the time and space they need to score, they'll take advantage of that. Putting up 8 goals means they were given said time and space.

    No, putting up 8 goals using the same strategy over and over is crap because no matter how well you defend he's still gonna get off a shot here and there, and you have NO control over whether the goalie stops it or not. The problem isn't them getting shots off. The problem is that they can take the same cheap shot all game and be successful because the goalie isn't programmed right. You can't literally hold them to 0 shots all the time but if they take 4 shots and score on 3 if them, that's not my failure to play defence... That's eas failure to program goalies that don't let the same weak stuff in over and over.

    You can say it's our fault all you want (which is clearly your answer for everything) but in a full game you can't stop every shot but when they can score 3 goals in 4 weak attempts because there goalie can't stop it, HOW is that on me for playing bad d. The defense job is to minimize chances. The goalies job is to stop those minimal chances. Problem is, the goalies are made of pudding.

    I'm not saying it's always the fault of the player and the game is perfect. I've said that a number of times. Apologies if that's how it came across.

    What are you considering weak attempts? Letting the carrier get to the slot where they can snipe the short side isn't exactly a weak attempt.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    There is no defence and if you use the poke check it’s a trip to the penalty box.

    Technically you're not supposed to use poke checking for defense. Not in the context everyone seems to be wanting to use it, in any case. This game series has taught players that this is the way it's supposed to be used, because REAL defense is actually much more simple and, by proxy, a lot more "boring" as real defense is 95% positioning. If you're gonna just mash poke check because you want the puck back then you SHOULD be getting called for that. I'm more ticked off that the EA devs thought nerfing the DSS in this same manner was a good idea...

    What do you mean you're technically not suppose to use poke check for defense? You literally can not use the poke check button any other time than playing defense.... also glitchers are not penalized for spamming glitch goals so why limit the poke checks? I use the poke check and complain about the absurd amount of penalties it brings but I also didnt complain about being poke checked before they decided to turn it into a penalty button. EA destroyed this NHL "simulator". I still manage to keep a positive record but a good chunk of my losses DO NOT COME FROM BEING OUT PLAYED. They come from glitchers who cant deke to save their life and would throw a breakaway away just to try and wait for a one-timer.... I wonder why.

    [Socair - edited for profanity]

    What I mean is that people will just mash RB or the A button the second they lose the puck or they think they will. I mean that people will chase you if you have the puck and they'll constantly be hitting poke check at you 15 million times in order to get the puck back. That's not how you use your stick unless you enjoy sitting in the Sin Bin all game long. Poke check is a tool used to break up a play, not get possession of the puck back like in THIS videogame.

    I used to be an assistant coach. I was in charge of the Goalies and I'd help the head coach with the Defense on our 17/18 youth team. What he preached was good positioning and containment. Knowing how to play without the puck. Using your stick to take away lanes and herd the opponent towards the boards, not give up the middle. Letting the goalie see easy shots so he can make routine saves. The entire philosophy of defense is to let the puck come to you, not the other way around.

    Poke checking is used in very, very specific situations, like loose pucks and board scrums. If a player tries to poke away the puck when another player has possession most times he'll miss and get burned. There is no "machine-gunning" of the poke check; if you lunge and miss, you don't recover fast enough and the opponent is already in another zip code with the puck. Although where I do agree with you is that it won't result in a tripping penalty. Most tripping penalties happen because a player is holding the other player's stick or body in a way that causes him to fall or stumble, with his stick.

    If you poke or swipe your stick at another player's legs, like shown in the top 10 clips I posted above, he'll just push your twig aside with his legs and continue going. You really have to dig in and wedge your stick between his legs or hold him to trip him.
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