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NHL 20 Content Update December 5th

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  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Hmm, saying the game is harder is very subjective without clear examples of what you are talking about. Also, to be fair, yes there is a certain skill required for poke checks. Buuuut, before 19, poke check could easily be machine gunned with little consequence. Next thing you know people are losing their minds in 19. It was an extreme change with basically very little explanation to it, how to use it, and even more importantly, there was no talk about it prior to release. It basically came out of nowhere and was not in the least expected.

    I do not want necessarily a more "sim" game. I want the game to push people to play in a realistic manner, like having to cycle the puck around, implicating the 2 losers also called D men at the blue line, not being able to be a one-man show or at least, not consistently, and I want garbage or low-percentage shots to be saved by the goalie. If on a 2-1 and I am covering the pass as a D man, then I full well expect my AI goalie to read this and focus on the shooter. In all honesty, the first day of the 19 beta felt very cloese to what I would want as a complete 1 year cycle product. It was very very close and required very moderate tweaking. Poke checks and trips were not really an issue because we had other tools on D that were reliable.

    I want a bit more control over my skater and I also want a bit more separation between classes. Also, I would not mind if player classes had different speeds as long as they all have a bit more agility than currently. Playing as an Enforcer is pretty clunky and annoying and in real life bigger players are not that clunky. Heck, Max Pacioretty is by no means a great skater, nor is he an Enforcer so I don't think classes should be that pigeon-holed in EASHL.

    I want ALOT less shot rebounds going straight to the opposing team so consistently and I would like to see goalies control rebounds alot better than now.

    As for human goalies, I would like to see a complete revamp because it is insane how unbelievably slow, clunky, messy and terribly inconsistent. It is 100x worse when compared to its real-life counterpart. 13 year old goalies are incredibly more agile than in this game.

    As for the hardcore mode, I would much rather play "hockey" against the same 8 or 10 people all the time than defend the same garbage goals against almost anyone I play. It is practically always the same 3 plays or areas that people go for. So if I am playing real hockey against 8 people it still has a good chance of being different than defending the same 3 plays from 400 people.

    The game can already play like real hockey. People choose not to though. I have seen many 6s teams play this way. They include their D, they cycle the puck, they try to pull defenders out of position to generate better scoring chances. However, there is a very big lack of patience with people playing this game. Especially when you have AI goalies. Soon as the goalie gets it, you have 3 guys tapping their sticks, calling for the puck and racing for the neutral zone to try and get an odd-man rush. This often results in a goal against when you play a team that waits for easy tap ins from the goalie passing it out.

    That's just one example. My point is, there's a huge amount of people that choose to play a very aggressive, run and gun style of play. That's by choice. Not by necessity. Watch a full team of AI players. They move the puck and try to open up lanes. They use the open ice to their advantage. Something human-controlled teams don't do very often. This game can be played more like a sim, but very often, people choose not to.

    If you know 8 - 10 people that play the same as you, play against them. You have that option.

    Yes. Poke checking is one of the ways the game became harder. There was also a time the "Spider-Man" goalies were introduced and people kinda freaked out then too. Back to the poke check change though, it was drastic. Would you rather a slow process where each tuner keeps upping the possibility of a penalty until it got to where it is today? That doesn't sound very hardcore either. That would be more of a handholding process. I get the change was shocking, but it also had to happen. The poke spam was one of the biggest complaints we had.

    As we discussed before, goalies were reverted back to the beta with the rollback in 19. You have to keep in mind that people get used to the new mechanics and are getting better at the game. They're going to find easier ways to score. By the time the rollback happened, they had a few months to do so.

    I definitely like the idea of more separation between classes. However, when one class is faster than others, it means that class is the one most everyone uses. With speed being the same across the board, you need to rely on your own skill more as well as teamwork. You're going to use your teammates more when you're not able to outskate everyone. In the case of one build having a speed advantage and being chosen by the majority of people, then you get everyone being the same speed which is what we have now, in a sense.

    I also understand wanting more agility and there's no doubt professional hockey players are agile, but we also don't want to push it far beyond realism. What would you do to make them more agile than they are now? People loved the skating of the previous generation, but it was also quite unrealistic. It seems odd the hardcore crowd would want that kind of skating.

    As always, I'm not saying there's no room for improvement or that the game wouldn't benefit from what you're suggesting. I'm just giving another point of view on it. The grass isn't always greener, as they say.

    The game can be played like hockey, but people choose not to.... Isn't that the whole point?? Is that not the whole problem I am talking about?? Hockey is a team sport and the game should enforce that aspect. The simple fact the game allows one-man shows and hogs consistently is the problem in and of itself.

    No, I do not want the game to hold my hand and gradually implement "poke checks" over several years. However, it would not have been hard at all to splatter that info over social media to make people aware of the changes that were coming. No, instead let everyone freak out and then panic and revert back to a tuner in less than a week. I know hockey. I have pretty good hockey IQ. Sadly, not that many do and it shows in dropins. I do not need 5 years to adapt to a game mechanic, but some people seem to just drill ahead full speed and never change anything up then cry that all they do is get penalties. Just this weekend I was in a dropin game and our centerman took 8 tripping penalties. All from behind, all in the offensive zone. You'd think that maybe one would start to analyze and wonder what he is doing wrong, but nope. Just keep smashing your way through and hope it changes....

    And I do not want to argue or insult you in any way, but not you, nor anyone else will convince me goalies got reverted to the beta. They were very very good and it never returned. ALl the same cheese plays were going on and goalies were doing their jobs. On a 2 on 1 I could focus on the pass and knew the goalie could handle the shot. Funny thing once people complained they couldn't score, goalies were reverted back to their garbage ways of 14-18. They are still giving up those garbage goals from 14-18.
  • Treatmentworke66
    977 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    Can someone please explain to me how some little Marty can spam the stick lift ,not even be in proper position and still get a successful lift ,but hardly get a penalty ...this game is disgrace ..
  • EA_Aljo
    3227 posts EA Community Manager
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Hmm, saying the game is harder is very subjective without clear examples of what you are talking about. Also, to be fair, yes there is a certain skill required for poke checks. Buuuut, before 19, poke check could easily be machine gunned with little consequence. Next thing you know people are losing their minds in 19. It was an extreme change with basically very little explanation to it, how to use it, and even more importantly, there was no talk about it prior to release. It basically came out of nowhere and was not in the least expected.

    I do not want necessarily a more "sim" game. I want the game to push people to play in a realistic manner, like having to cycle the puck around, implicating the 2 losers also called D men at the blue line, not being able to be a one-man show or at least, not consistently, and I want garbage or low-percentage shots to be saved by the goalie. If on a 2-1 and I am covering the pass as a D man, then I full well expect my AI goalie to read this and focus on the shooter. In all honesty, the first day of the 19 beta felt very cloese to what I would want as a complete 1 year cycle product. It was very very close and required very moderate tweaking. Poke checks and trips were not really an issue because we had other tools on D that were reliable.

    I want a bit more control over my skater and I also want a bit more separation between classes. Also, I would not mind if player classes had different speeds as long as they all have a bit more agility than currently. Playing as an Enforcer is pretty clunky and annoying and in real life bigger players are not that clunky. Heck, Max Pacioretty is by no means a great skater, nor is he an Enforcer so I don't think classes should be that pigeon-holed in EASHL.

    I want ALOT less shot rebounds going straight to the opposing team so consistently and I would like to see goalies control rebounds alot better than now.

    As for human goalies, I would like to see a complete revamp because it is insane how unbelievably slow, clunky, messy and terribly inconsistent. It is 100x worse when compared to its real-life counterpart. 13 year old goalies are incredibly more agile than in this game.

    As for the hardcore mode, I would much rather play "hockey" against the same 8 or 10 people all the time than defend the same garbage goals against almost anyone I play. It is practically always the same 3 plays or areas that people go for. So if I am playing real hockey against 8 people it still has a good chance of being different than defending the same 3 plays from 400 people.

    The game can already play like real hockey. People choose not to though. I have seen many 6s teams play this way. They include their D, they cycle the puck, they try to pull defenders out of position to generate better scoring chances. However, there is a very big lack of patience with people playing this game. Especially when you have AI goalies. Soon as the goalie gets it, you have 3 guys tapping their sticks, calling for the puck and racing for the neutral zone to try and get an odd-man rush. This often results in a goal against when you play a team that waits for easy tap ins from the goalie passing it out.

    That's just one example. My point is, there's a huge amount of people that choose to play a very aggressive, run and gun style of play. That's by choice. Not by necessity. Watch a full team of AI players. They move the puck and try to open up lanes. They use the open ice to their advantage. Something human-controlled teams don't do very often. This game can be played more like a sim, but very often, people choose not to.

    If you know 8 - 10 people that play the same as you, play against them. You have that option.

    Yes. Poke checking is one of the ways the game became harder. There was also a time the "Spider-Man" goalies were introduced and people kinda freaked out then too. Back to the poke check change though, it was drastic. Would you rather a slow process where each tuner keeps upping the possibility of a penalty until it got to where it is today? That doesn't sound very hardcore either. That would be more of a handholding process. I get the change was shocking, but it also had to happen. The poke spam was one of the biggest complaints we had.

    As we discussed before, goalies were reverted back to the beta with the rollback in 19. You have to keep in mind that people get used to the new mechanics and are getting better at the game. They're going to find easier ways to score. By the time the rollback happened, they had a few months to do so.

    I definitely like the idea of more separation between classes. However, when one class is faster than others, it means that class is the one most everyone uses. With speed being the same across the board, you need to rely on your own skill more as well as teamwork. You're going to use your teammates more when you're not able to outskate everyone. In the case of one build having a speed advantage and being chosen by the majority of people, then you get everyone being the same speed which is what we have now, in a sense.

    I also understand wanting more agility and there's no doubt professional hockey players are agile, but we also don't want to push it far beyond realism. What would you do to make them more agile than they are now? People loved the skating of the previous generation, but it was also quite unrealistic. It seems odd the hardcore crowd would want that kind of skating.

    As always, I'm not saying there's no room for improvement or that the game wouldn't benefit from what you're suggesting. I'm just giving another point of view on it. The grass isn't always greener, as they say.

    i think its partially eas fault people play how they do. They may be casuals that dont fully know hockey and this game does VERY little to educate newcomers on how the sport works and how to play properly

    There's probably more we could do to help educate people how to play, but there are also a ton of resources out there. There are also plenty of people that know how to play and choose not to because they like to play a more aggressive and fast-paced style of play.
  • EA_Aljo
    3227 posts EA Community Manager
    TheMajjam wrote: »

    The way people play is a product of the game's design. This is in no way a game for patient people. Patience and team play, in my humble opinion, are the niche ways to play NHL. In order to get people to change the way they play, the gameplay needs to be tailored in that direction. You forced us D-men to stop poking at pucks by making the poke check a penalty magnet. You forced this even more by making penalties for people that play 3's a penalty shot instead of putting an extra man on the ice like in previous versions. Perhaps you guys should take the time to create two modes of play for 6's play in NHL. One like this where it is possible for one guy to deke through a team. More of an arcade style of play. Then another mode suited more for methodical team play, where passing, positioning, and decisions mean more.

    You choose to stop poking at pucks because you're taking too many penalties. I play defense. Almost exclusively and I'm using the poke check successfully almost all the time. Because I worked at getting it down instead of just blaming the game and not being accountable for my own skill. This is what I'm talking about when people say they want a sim mode. If you can't learn to poke without taking a ton of penalties, a more arcade-style of play where pokes are more forgiving is probably more your speed.

    Threes is an arcade mode. The standard rules don't really apply so penalty shots for penalties is fine. It's not supposed to mimic authentic hockey as it's a very different ruleset. Unless you're talking about penalty shots in EASHL 3s. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware that was the case as I just play 6s and arcade Threes once in a while.

    As far as one guy dekeing through a team goes, isn't it on the team to play good defense and stop them? Passing, positioning and making good decisions in general already contribute to defending well and setting up good scoring chances. Not everyone has the same vision and can see those plays developing. That's not really something we can teach.
  • EA_Aljo
    3227 posts EA Community Manager
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »

    @EA_Aljo

    This.

    People play this game the way they do, because the game allows it. There is nothing to teach the player what is the right way to play. Sure you CAN play a semblance of real hockey, cycle the puck around, look for open players and score goals that are rewarding. But why should any casual or beginner players want to do that if they can just as easily score goals by skating over the blue line or winning a face-off and flicking up? Whether you move the puck to get the defense and the goalie out of position or you just straight up shoot on the goalie without a screen, you can be rewarded.

    Making a game more challenging doesn't mean making it harder or more frustrating. Teaching your player how to play your game by PLAYING IT and overcoming its CHALLENGES is a staple of any Good game.

    If you think that by making a hockey game play like hockey will result in you losing your customers, then maybe you don't really know your customers. People play sports games, because they love the Sports they are trying to represent. They want to play like the athletes play in real life or they want to feel what it's like to be at that level. Whether it's Formula One, or NBA Basketball or Baseball. And just like the casuals may not be interested in playing something more "realistic", the hard-core audience is not interested in playing a dumbed down version either.

    The problem with EA's NHL series is that you shield the casuals from the hardcore experience, but you force the hard-core players into playing the casual experience. Seems fair... :/

    @TheMajjam

    To be fair, this game still doesn't punish people for using the poke check stupidly. I've seen players literally mashing RB while skating away or hitting A to stick lift the minute they lose the puck or going down to block passes when you're on a rush. But if you have position and try to initiate a good poke, you can get punished. If you try to use DSS to contain the player and force him keep the puck to the outside, he can just skate into your stick and cause a tripping penalty against you.

    Literally, the game punishes you for good defensive plays and rewards you for dumb decisions.

    Skating over the blue line and flicking up to score is going to rarely end up with the puck in the back of the net. Sure, it's possible, but if someone is happy rarely scoring on that shot, but continuing to take it, that's on them. It's incredibly rare I go up against someone that just throws shots on net once they cross the blue line. Nothing more than the occasional dump because they don't have any good options. If someone was going to take only that shot, chances are excellent they're not going to win if they're playing someone with a modicum of skill. Either that or someone's defense is so strong that's all they're giving them. That shot is not going to score often at all though. People should learn from that and move on to better ways to score.

    You can play most any game in a way it wasn't intended. We'll never really be able to stop that. The hardcore players can play this game like real hockey. That ability is there, but many choose not to. I don't see how we're shielding the casuals because once in a while a weak goal gets scored.

    I can't agree you're punished for good defense. I see and make good defensive plays in every game. Sure, I make mistakes too. I'm human. I get punished for those though. A missed hit, a bad poke, pinching when I shouldn't be, etc, are all on me. Bad defense gets punished. As far as getting punished for having good positioning on a poke check, it's not good positioning if you're constantly taking penalties. Either you're too close and hitting their skates, you're not in as good positioning as you thought you were or you're not controlling the DSS well enough and are going from inside-out. Part of good positioning is managing the gap between your stick and the puck. If you're letting people skate into you while using DSS, that's on you. I use DSS all the time and it's so incredibly rare someone skates into it. I pull it back when they get too close and use my body to keep them to the outside.

    There is room to make the game more realistic. I won't argue that, but I'm also not going to agree that people's choice to not play more like real hockey is all on us. I don't think we're forcing hardcore players to play casual. Good play is rewarded more often than bad play, but if people lack the patience to play that style of hockey, whether they are hardcore or casual, that's not really something we can control.
  • EA_Aljo
    3227 posts EA Community Manager

    The game can be played like hockey, but people choose not to.... Isn't that the whole point?? Is that not the whole problem I am talking about?? Hockey is a team sport and the game should enforce that aspect. The simple fact the game allows one-man shows and hogs consistently is the problem in and of itself.

    No, I do not want the game to hold my hand and gradually implement "poke checks" over several years. However, it would not have been hard at all to splatter that info over social media to make people aware of the changes that were coming. No, instead let everyone freak out and then panic and revert back to a tuner in less than a week. I know hockey. I have pretty good hockey IQ. Sadly, not that many do and it shows in dropins. I do not need 5 years to adapt to a game mechanic, but some people seem to just drill ahead full speed and never change anything up then cry that all they do is get penalties. Just this weekend I was in a dropin game and our centerman took 8 tripping penalties. All from behind, all in the offensive zone. You'd think that maybe one would start to analyze and wonder what he is doing wrong, but nope. Just keep smashing your way through and hope it changes....

    And I do not want to argue or insult you in any way, but not you, nor anyone else will convince me goalies got reverted to the beta. They were very very good and it never returned. ALl the same cheese plays were going on and goalies were doing their jobs. On a 2 on 1 I could focus on the pass and knew the goalie could handle the shot. Funny thing once people complained they couldn't score, goalies were reverted back to their garbage ways of 14-18. They are still giving up those garbage goals from 14-18.

    How would you want to force people to play more realistically? There is the on-ice trainer that shows a lot of information that can help newer players. Sure, it would be nice if we had a bunch of tutorial videos showing how to play, but that also only goes so far. This is a team sport. Their teammates should be working with them to educate them on better play. In the case of the center that constantly took penalties, did you talk to him? There's not a ton of chatter in drop-ins and frequently people are going to trash them instead of try to help them out. I know I'd get really frustrated with someone constantly going for pokes from behind and at least try to talk to them about it. Sadly, I don't see that happen very often as most people are more quick to insult them.
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    EA_Aljo wrote: »

    The game can be played like hockey, but people choose not to.... Isn't that the whole point?? Is that not the whole problem I am talking about?? Hockey is a team sport and the game should enforce that aspect. The simple fact the game allows one-man shows and hogs consistently is the problem in and of itself.

    No, I do not want the game to hold my hand and gradually implement "poke checks" over several years. However, it would not have been hard at all to splatter that info over social media to make people aware of the changes that were coming. No, instead let everyone freak out and then panic and revert back to a tuner in less than a week. I know hockey. I have pretty good hockey IQ. Sadly, not that many do and it shows in dropins. I do not need 5 years to adapt to a game mechanic, but some people seem to just drill ahead full speed and never change anything up then cry that all they do is get penalties. Just this weekend I was in a dropin game and our centerman took 8 tripping penalties. All from behind, all in the offensive zone. You'd think that maybe one would start to analyze and wonder what he is doing wrong, but nope. Just keep smashing your way through and hope it changes....

    And I do not want to argue or insult you in any way, but not you, nor anyone else will convince me goalies got reverted to the beta. They were very very good and it never returned. ALl the same cheese plays were going on and goalies were doing their jobs. On a 2 on 1 I could focus on the pass and knew the goalie could handle the shot. Funny thing once people complained they couldn't score, goalies were reverted back to their garbage ways of 14-18. They are still giving up those garbage goals from 14-18.

    How would you want to force people to play more realistically? There is the on-ice trainer that shows a lot of information that can help newer players. Sure, it would be nice if we had a bunch of tutorial videos showing how to play, but that also only goes so far. This is a team sport. Their teammates should be working with them to educate them on better play. In the case of the center that constantly took penalties, did you talk to him? There's not a ton of chatter in drop-ins and frequently people are going to trash them instead of try to help them out. I know I'd get really frustrated with someone constantly going for pokes from behind and at least try to talk to them about it. Sadly, I don't see that happen very often as most people are more quick to insult them.

    I guess I will state it again:

    Make puck hogging practically impossible. Force the people to pass the puck or cough it up. Playmakers exist for a reason.

    Do you watch hockey on tv? Ovechkin, McDavid, Toews, Kane, Bergeron, Matthews, Marner, Eichel, GRETZKY, etc... Know what they all have in common? When they see an opposing player barreling towards them, they move the puck. Yup. Even the elites of the NHL move the puck around instead of coughing it up. True story.

    No need for 20 how-to videos. If you simply cannot hog the puck, then you will move it to your team mates. Maybe even some of your team mates are better at moving the puck and getting around certain defenders, well then move the puck to them and make sure you are at least giving them a passing option if they are boxed in afterwards. Danglers are the class to try and hog, yet almost every class can do it consistently.

    Aren't you tired of seeing the #1 tactic being used is actually nothing more than curling your stick behind your back? You find that fun, or amusing? You think that reflects the sport adequately, appropriately, or even logically? It is nothing more than absurd and so repetitive that it is beyond boring.

    I remember thinking back when NHL15 was announced for the PS4... I remember thinking how EASHL was going to be so incredibly awesome, how goaltending would be amazing to play, how more realism would be integrated into the series, board play would be revamped, etc etc.... because the new consoles would offer so many more possibilities that old gen simply couldn't perform..... Holy crap was I wrong and quite honestly, was immensely let down. This whole generation has nothing over old gen except for the new shooting animations from 20 and graphics are nicer. Other than that, it is literally behind in everything else. The PS4 is reported to be what, 20 times more powerful than the PS3? Something like that? So why is this game not reflecting that? It isn't even close....

    And no I did not talk to my centerman because apparently using a mic on a PS4 is asking too much from the majority of people.
    Post edited by WainGretSki on
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Kmahrle83 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Hmm, saying the game is harder is very subjective without clear examples of what you are talking about. Also, to be fair, yes there is a certain skill required for poke checks. Buuuut, before 19, poke check could easily be machine gunned with little consequence. Next thing you know people are losing their minds in 19. It was an extreme change with basically very little explanation to it, how to use it, and even more importantly, there was no talk about it prior to release. It basically came out of nowhere and was not in the least expected.

    I do not want necessarily a more "sim" game. I want the game to push people to play in a realistic manner, like having to cycle the puck around, implicating the 2 losers also called D men at the blue line, not being able to be a one-man show or at least, not consistently, and I want garbage or low-percentage shots to be saved by the goalie. If on a 2-1 and I am covering the pass as a D man, then I full well expect my AI goalie to read this and focus on the shooter. In all honesty, the first day of the 19 beta felt very cloese to what I would want as a complete 1 year cycle product. It was very very close and required very moderate tweaking. Poke checks and trips were not really an issue because we had other tools on D that were reliable.

    I want a bit more control over my skater and I also want a bit more separation between classes. Also, I would not mind if player classes had different speeds as long as they all have a bit more agility than currently. Playing as an Enforcer is pretty clunky and annoying and in real life bigger players are not that clunky. Heck, Max Pacioretty is by no means a great skater, nor is he an Enforcer so I don't think classes should be that pigeon-holed in EASHL.

    I want ALOT less shot rebounds going straight to the opposing team so consistently and I would like to see goalies control rebounds alot better than now.

    As for human goalies, I would like to see a complete revamp because it is insane how unbelievably slow, clunky, messy and terribly inconsistent. It is 100x worse when compared to its real-life counterpart. 13 year old goalies are incredibly more agile than in this game.

    As for the hardcore mode, I would much rather play "hockey" against the same 8 or 10 people all the time than defend the same garbage goals against almost anyone I play. It is practically always the same 3 plays or areas that people go for. So if I am playing real hockey against 8 people it still has a good chance of being different than defending the same 3 plays from 400 people.

    The game can already play like real hockey. People choose not to though. I have seen many 6s teams play this way. They include their D, they cycle the puck, they try to pull defenders out of position to generate better scoring chances. However, there is a very big lack of patience with people playing this game. Especially when you have AI goalies. Soon as the goalie gets it, you have 3 guys tapping their sticks, calling for the puck and racing for the neutral zone to try and get an odd-man rush. This often results in a goal against when you play a team that waits for easy tap ins from the goalie passing it out.

    That's just one example. My point is, there's a huge amount of people that choose to play a very aggressive, run and gun style of play. That's by choice. Not by necessity. Watch a full team of AI players. They move the puck and try to open up lanes. They use the open ice to their advantage. Something human-controlled teams don't do very often. This game can be played more like a sim, but very often, people choose not to.

    If you know 8 - 10 people that play the same as you, play against them. You have that option.

    Yes. Poke checking is one of the ways the game became harder. There was also a time the "Spider-Man" goalies were introduced and people kinda freaked out then too. Back to the poke check change though, it was drastic. Would you rather a slow process where each tuner keeps upping the possibility of a penalty until it got to where it is today? That doesn't sound very hardcore either. That would be more of a handholding process. I get the change was shocking, but it also had to happen. The poke spam was one of the biggest complaints we had.

    As we discussed before, goalies were reverted back to the beta with the rollback in 19. You have to keep in mind that people get used to the new mechanics and are getting better at the game. They're going to find easier ways to score. By the time the rollback happened, they had a few months to do so.

    I definitely like the idea of more separation between classes. However, when one class is faster than others, it means that class is the one most everyone uses. With speed being the same across the board, you need to rely on your own skill more as well as teamwork. You're going to use your teammates more when you're not able to outskate everyone. In the case of one build having a speed advantage and being chosen by the majority of people, then you get everyone being the same speed which is what we have now, in a sense.

    I also understand wanting more agility and there's no doubt professional hockey players are agile, but we also don't want to push it far beyond realism. What would you do to make them more agile than they are now? People loved the skating of the previous generation, but it was also quite unrealistic. It seems odd the hardcore crowd would want that kind of skating.

    As always, I'm not saying there's no room for improvement or that the game wouldn't benefit from what you're suggesting. I'm just giving another point of view on it. The grass isn't always greener, as they say.

    i think its partially eas fault people play how they do. They may be casuals that dont fully know hockey and this game does VERY little to educate newcomers on how the sport works and how to play properly

    There's probably more we could do to help educate people how to play, but there are also a ton of resources out there. There are also plenty of people that know how to play and choose not to because they like to play a more aggressive and fast-paced style of play.

    There's no need to educate people. There's a need to change how the game plays and from there people will learn how to play.

    When you create a video game, regardless of what style it is, you are essentially creating a world from scratch. You set the rules, parameters and dictate how it all ties together. There are actions and reactions based on those rules. If your rules are all over the place, or they are too flexible, then problems occur. That is when people can exploit those said rules and sometimes, even break the rules if a way to do so is found.

    The fact that players can hog the puck and navigate through multiple people without losing the puck is because the "world" EA created allows it. Change the "world" then you will change how players have to play in it.

    L2 abuse is a byproduct of someone abusing a rule in EA's created world. Now they have to find a way to fix it, yet seem to also want to leave it there. Again, change the world, change how people live in it. Pretty simply if you ask me, now find a way to make it happen. You job is to create, find and fix problems. My job is to purchase the product, or not.
  • Wain gave good specifics but the quick and short answer is that you make hockey plays the most effective plays. You can choose a million different ways to promote that playstyle or a million others to discourage selfish plays. Players will do whatever is most effective and EA gets to decide what that is.

    If you gave players an option to equip a stun gun and shoot defenders out of the play your defense for that situation can't be "they don't HAVE to use the stun gun" or "We didn't know they would use it like that". You just take the stun gun away.
  • Are goalie covers EVER going to be fixed? I've seen minutes come off the game clock because the goalie is stuck in a cover animation glitch. It blows me away it's been happening for so long now and it's still not addressed....

    Or are you saving it for "authentic goalie covers" as a new feature for NHL 21? LOL
    Administrator at Xbox-Sports

  • Are goalie covers EVER going to be fixed? I've seen minutes come off the game clock because the goalie is stuck in a cover animation glitch. It blows me away it's been happening for so long now and it's still not addressed....

    Or are you saving it for "authentic goalie covers" as a new feature for NHL 21? LOL

    I've been saying this from day one ,this and the D man stepping up for no reason in my opinion are purposely made to play that way ..... again what bigger threat can there be if the puck is right in front of the goalie and he can't or better yet won't cover it ... again a disgrace of a game
  • BleedBlueBlood
    9 posts Member
    edited January 2020
    The fact it's been happening for so long and it's still not fixed, I honestly think they don't have a clue how to fix it.....


    Oh and since people are still discussing LT, yes the abuse is still in the game. You can still do very unrealistic moves with it. EA may have "toned it down" but it's still there for abuse. Fortunately, we at Xbox-Sports simulate real hockey gameplay and we don't allow this abuse in our league.
    Post edited by BleedBlueBlood on
    Administrator at Xbox-Sports

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    The fact it's been happening for so long and it's still not fixed, I honestly think they don't have a clue how to fix it.....


    Oh and since people are still discussing LT, yes the abuse is still in the game. You can still do very unrealistic moves with it. EA may have "toned it down" but it's still there for abuse. Fortunately, we at Xbox-Sports simulate real hockey gameplay and we don't allow this abuse in our league.

    You are obviously playing on Xbox but are you playing 6v6 with human goalies? We have replicated an Xbox only issue for human goalie covers in cases where they would be non-playable freezes of the puck. The issue is that they get control in the cover and then lose it. In the assets the puck was completely still on the freeze and the xbox handled that zero value different than PS4. We are testing around the change and hoping we can get the fix out to players. As with anything, we can never guarantee a fix until it is delivered to our players but we have been working on this one from the day we heard about it and the fact it was console specific is what made it that much harder to track down.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    The fact it's been happening for so long and it's still not fixed, I honestly think they don't have a clue how to fix it.....


    Oh and since people are still discussing LT, yes the abuse is still in the game. You can still do very unrealistic moves with it. EA may have "toned it down" but it's still there for abuse. Fortunately, we at Xbox-Sports simulate real hockey gameplay and we don't allow this abuse in our league.

    You are obviously playing on Xbox but are you playing 6v6 with human goalies? We have replicated an Xbox only issue for human goalie covers in cases where they would be non-playable freezes of the puck. The issue is that they get control in the cover and then lose it. In the assets the puck was completely still on the freeze and the xbox handled that zero value different than PS4. We are testing around the change and hoping we can get the fix out to players. As with anything, we can never guarantee a fix until it is delivered to our players but we have been working on this one from the day we heard about it and the fact it was console specific is what made it that much harder to track down.

    I am so happy that you responded :)

    Indeed, we play on Xbox and all our games are 6v6 with humans. It's like the goalie is stuck in a cover attempt loop.

    We do instruct all our players on both teams to back away from the goalie so he can try to cover it instead of allowing them to poke at it. That would really suck to be a deciding factor to an important game. Sometimes the goalie will stand up and try to cover it again. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't and loops again.

    We've seen up to 2-3 minutes of game clock time be wasted because of this.

    If you require any help in testing, BleedBlueBlood is my gamertag and I'd be more than willing to help.

    It's probably our biggest gripe in league play right now.

    Thanks again for addressing my concern.

    Administrator at Xbox-Sports

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    The fact it's been happening for so long and it's still not fixed, I honestly think they don't have a clue how to fix it.....


    Oh and since people are still discussing LT, yes the abuse is still in the game. You can still do very unrealistic moves with it. EA may have "toned it down" but it's still there for abuse. Fortunately, we at Xbox-Sports simulate real hockey gameplay and we don't allow this abuse in our league.

    You are obviously playing on Xbox but are you playing 6v6 with human goalies? We have replicated an Xbox only issue for human goalie covers in cases where they would be non-playable freezes of the puck. The issue is that they get control in the cover and then lose it. In the assets the puck was completely still on the freeze and the xbox handled that zero value different than PS4. We are testing around the change and hoping we can get the fix out to players. As with anything, we can never guarantee a fix until it is delivered to our players but we have been working on this one from the day we heard about it and the fact it was console specific is what made it that much harder to track down.

    Will this fix your working also include hut and vs , because it's so frustrating when the goalie just seems to pause for a few seconds before covering the puck ,and also are u working on the D men also just stepping up for no reason
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The fact it's been happening for so long and it's still not fixed, I honestly think they don't have a clue how to fix it.....


    Oh and since people are still discussing LT, yes the abuse is still in the game. You can still do very unrealistic moves with it. EA may have "toned it down" but it's still there for abuse. Fortunately, we at Xbox-Sports simulate real hockey gameplay and we don't allow this abuse in our league.

    You are obviously playing on Xbox but are you playing 6v6 with human goalies? We have replicated an Xbox only issue for human goalie covers in cases where they would be non-playable freezes of the puck. The issue is that they get control in the cover and then lose it. In the assets the puck was completely still on the freeze and the xbox handled that zero value different than PS4. We are testing around the change and hoping we can get the fix out to players. As with anything, we can never guarantee a fix until it is delivered to our players but we have been working on this one from the day we heard about it and the fact it was console specific is what made it that much harder to track down.

    Will this fix your working also include hut and vs , because it's so frustrating when the goalie just seems to pause for a few seconds before covering the puck ,and also are u working on the D men also just stepping up for no reason

    This particular fix is for human goalies on xbox only.

    As for the ai, we are always looking at ways to improve them but nothing to confirm at this time for fixes.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    The fact it's been happening for so long and it's still not fixed, I honestly think they don't have a clue how to fix it.....


    Oh and since people are still discussing LT, yes the abuse is still in the game. You can still do very unrealistic moves with it. EA may have "toned it down" but it's still there for abuse. Fortunately, we at Xbox-Sports simulate real hockey gameplay and we don't allow this abuse in our league.

    You are obviously playing on Xbox but are you playing 6v6 with human goalies? We have replicated an Xbox only issue for human goalie covers in cases where they would be non-playable freezes of the puck. The issue is that they get control in the cover and then lose it. In the assets the puck was completely still on the freeze and the xbox handled that zero value different than PS4. We are testing around the change and hoping we can get the fix out to players. As with anything, we can never guarantee a fix until it is delivered to our players but we have been working on this one from the day we heard about it and the fact it was console specific is what made it that much harder to track down.

    Will this fix your working also include hut and vs , because it's so frustrating when the goalie just seems to pause for a few seconds before covering the puck ,and also are u working on the D men also just stepping up for no reason

    This particular fix is for human goalies on xbox only.

    As for the ai, we are always looking at ways to improve them but nothing to confirm at this time for fixes.

    i would recommend you go look at the AI from about NHL 13-14 or so. There have been some steps forward but there have been tons of HUGE steps backwards.

    at this point I'm just convinced that you guys coded the AI to randomly throughout the game intentionally make a bunch of really bad decisions. 2 on 1s? they will never pass. 2 on 3 with no open guy? sometimes they will just skate into the goalie and turn it over like they were confused. Often they just force a pass right to the other team. The whole bank pass thing? yeah i'm pretty sure they only do that in certain situations , like on a break out or through the neutral zone. if i'm down in the corner and they are at the point and could easily pass it to me off the boards they won't, even when i'm calling for it. instead they will turn and send it D to D even though the other team is sitting right there waiting. breakaway easy goal. they go behind the goal line to retrieve a puck while being chased. do they instantly throw it up the boards to the wide open winger? do they do anything to try and get rid of it? no they just sit there and let the other player come in and take it. every so often they get away, turn and skate right at the net and try to skate through, pass through, etc their own goalie/net...sometimes putting it right in their own goal.

    i could go on and on. most of these things never happened back in the day...short of the incredible lack of awareness that they should avoid their own net/goalie.

    whats really weird about all these problems? the total randomness at which they do it. maybe that do that dumb stuff 2x in a row and then the third time, out of exact same situation, they take it the length of the ice, weave and deke through everyone skate in and do some nasty deke and snipe on the goalie and score (or more likely finish it all off with missing the net).

    on defense they aren't quite so bad except now they seem to be programmed to either crush the offense with amazing speed, acceleration, agility, hitting or just back off and let them do whatever they want. but they are usually maintaining good positioning the entire time. so if the puck carrier is a moron they just turn it over to the AI defense.

    to sum it up? lots of work to do. some of the improvements are over shadowed by all the ways the AI is worse than ever. I didn't even mention goalies as they are so bad at this point they might as well be a tie up goalie target with holes. if the skater AI were improved I could deal with the goalies. If they were better at dumb little things and maybe some randomness rather than doing exactly the same things all the time so the same exact goals didn't go in 100% of the time leading to teams just doing what it took to get as many of those opportunities as possible. Then I'd be ok with it.

    playing with the AI is still about doing as little as possible. Stay out of their way, it seems the more involved humans are the more confused they get. play off them and facilitate, pick up loose pucks, be an outlet for them where you can but dont try and do it all, they just seem befuddled.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Folks,

    The type of game that everyone wants is not possible based on EA's annual patch release model. That is correct...every year when you buy that boxed product, you're buying essentially a huge content patch, with minor game engine adjustments. Then along the way, you'll get a couple of small "fix" patches, until the next major content patch is dropped (e.g. NHL 21).

    The problem here is budget. EA's stock holders are never going to allow EA Sports to provide the budget necessary to sustain a major game engine for years on end. I've suggested a subscription model over 10 years ago, to no avail. I've even suggested two sets of sliders for online team play (arcade, and sim)...nothing. Not because they don't want to, but because they just can't do it due to them being hog-tied from a budget, time, and testing standpoint.

    Because of their limited resources, EA Sports must produce a product that appeals to everyone. The majority of their customers want a fast, arcade-style product, with lots of scoring. These people don't want realistic defensive 6 on 6 grinder games (e.g. 2-1 final scores). They want 12-8 final score outcomes. That's why Austin Matthews is on the cover, as opposed to Nicklas Lidström.

    You all have great ideas for making the perfect hockey game. The only problem is, the wrong company is at the helm. It's not that the employees on the NHL product team are bad, it's just the higher ups who are pulling their strings who either don't give a crap, or who are at the mercy of the stock holders.

    Take NHL from EA Sports for what it is...the only option in the market, and which is C-rate. The sooner you accept it and make your purchasing adjustments, the better you'll feel.

    You're making some pretty wild assumptions here. Especially when it comes to the dev team not being able to make the game they want to make due to higher-ups not caring.

    The idea is to make a game that appeals to as large an audience as possible. Hockey fans come in all forms. Whether it's a game, band, film franchise, hobby, etc, the hardcore crowd always makes up a fraction of that community. If it was made for the purely hardcore, there'd probably way fewer updates which means bugs go unresolved longer and new features would take a lot longer to add. It would probably also be unlicensed and wouldn't have as much support. If you want to play a more hardcore version of the game, you can change the sliders to do so and play offline. For online, we want as even a playing field as possible so that skill is what determines the outcome of most games. I say most because of course there are times, even though you may have more skill than your opponent, it's not exactly impossible for them to win. You could have had a bad game, they could have had a better than normal game. Maybe a couple muffins trickled through. It happens. It does in real hockey as well. If you're truly a skilled player, your record will show it, but that doesn't mean you're going to win every game.

    We also see a lot of requests for more simulation features that contradict themselves. For example, going back to the old card system for EASHL. Boosting stats and not relying on pure skill would be less sim, yet many in the hardcore crowd would like to see that. We still see complaints that tripping is too frequent when this is under your control. There are people that complain passing is broken because their passes don't go where they aim. Then, when seeing video of it, it's clear to see their aim is off. Also, there would be more people using no online assist for passing if they wanted it to be completely skill based.

    Sir,

    I've been watching EA Sports Community Managers on this forum spin their way out of this conversation for over 15 years. I get that it is your job to keep your hockey franchise in a positive light, but please, do not insult my intelligence.

    "The idea is to make a game that appeals to as large an audience as possible. Hockey fans come in all forms. Whether it's a game, band, film franchise, hobby, etc, the hardcore crowd always makes up a fraction of that community."

    Of COURSE the idea is to make a product that appeals to as large an audience as possible. As a business owner, I understand this concept all too well. The fact is, your logic also applies to the real sport of NHL hockey. Indeed, hockey fans DO come in all forms, and the NHL ALSO establishes one set of rules for all of their fans. What, you don't think real hockey fans want to see 50 bone-crushing, open-ice hits thrown by one player per game, with no penalties called on any of them? Of COURSE they do. Is it allowed in the NHL? Of COURSE not. But in EA online hockey, it IS allowed. These are the rules YOU have established for your product, which is inconsistent with the NHL's rule set.

    If you want your product to appeal to as large an audience as possible, you offer MORE variations to your product, not less. For example, for online multiplayer sim league hockey play, you allow players acting as league commissioners to customize your multiplayer slider sets, which would allow for a more realistic version of 6 on 6 hockey play. But due to budget and time constraints, there's no way you would be able to code in and test all the scenarios involved with a completely different playing environment, not with a hard annual release deadline. It's just not possible.

    Another example is putting back into the game what once existed: Customizable digital controls. Yes, there was once a time when users could map any digital function to any button on the game pad they wished. Only the analog sticks were hard-coded, which was the correct move at the time. If you want to see this for yourself, just load up any mid-2000 version of your product from the PC code branch. Of course, this was when Dave Warfield was running the project, and when JasCarver was the forum moderator. They knew how to appeal to large audiences.

    I could list many other examples, but it would just be a waste of time, as it always has been.

    In the end, I'll still buy your game...in late December, when the price drops below $25. That's what it's worth to me. *shrugs*

    How you and the team choose to use this information, is entirely up to you.

    Cheers.
  • EA_Aljo
    3227 posts EA Community Manager

    Sir,

    I've been watching EA Sports Community Managers on this forum spin their way out of this conversation for over 15 years. I get that it is your job to keep your hockey franchise in a positive light, but please, do not insult my intelligence.

    "The idea is to make a game that appeals to as large an audience as possible. Hockey fans come in all forms. Whether it's a game, band, film franchise, hobby, etc, the hardcore crowd always makes up a fraction of that community."

    Of COURSE the idea is to make a product that appeals to as large an audience as possible. As a business owner, I understand this concept all too well. The fact is, your logic also applies to the real sport of NHL hockey. Indeed, hockey fans DO come in all forms, and the NHL ALSO establishes one set of rules for all of their fans. What, you don't think real hockey fans want to see 50 bone-crushing, open-ice hits thrown by one player per game, with no penalties called on any of them? Of COURSE they do. Is it allowed in the NHL? Of COURSE not. But in EA online hockey, it IS allowed. These are the rules YOU have established for your product, which is inconsistent with the NHL's rule set.

    If you want your product to appeal to as large an audience as possible, you offer MORE variations to your product, not less. For example, for online multiplayer sim league hockey play, you allow players acting as league commissioners to customize your multiplayer slider sets, which would allow for a more realistic version of 6 on 6 hockey play. But due to budget and time constraints, there's no way you would be able to code in and test all the scenarios involved with a completely different playing environment, not with a hard annual release deadline. It's just not possible.

    Another example is putting back into the game what once existed: Customizable digital controls. Yes, there was once a time when users could map any digital function to any button on the game pad they wished. Only the analog sticks were hard-coded, which was the correct move at the time. If you want to see this for yourself, just load up any mid-2000 version of your product from the PC code branch. Of course, this was when Dave Warfield was running the project, and when JasCarver was the forum moderator. They knew how to appeal to large audiences.

    I could list many other examples, but it would just be a waste of time, as it always has been.

    In the end, I'll still buy your game...in late December, when the price drops below $25. That's what it's worth to me. *shrugs*

    How you and the team choose to use this information, is entirely up to you.

    Cheers.

    We aren't spinning our way out of conversations. We are being 100% truthful here, but many choose not to believe us. All we can do is give you the correct information. It's up to you to believe it or not. You're a business owner yourself. I imagine it would be pretty frustrating for people to make assumptions and accusations about your business that aren't true. The amount of inaccurate information and assumptions about how the game is made that we see here daily is staggering. We try to give you guys as much insight into the game and its creation as possible, but very often that's not believed.

    If you're getting away with 50 hits in a game, by one player, and are not taking penalties, they're landing legit hits. Is it realistic? No, of course not, but technically they're playing by the rules. We aren't going to limit how many times someone can hit. However, it seems like it would be reasonable that your player runs the risk of being injured for playing such a physical game. Regardless, I don't see how this is inconsistent with the NHL ruleset. Unless you're talking about Threes. Which, of course, has a very relaxed ruleset.

    At the end of the day, this is a video game. It's not going to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport. We want the game to be fun, but that's subjective. Not everyone has the same idea of what constitutes fun.

    You can remap the buttons through your console's settings, but of course, that changes it for every game. Hopefully, this can be added specifically for NHL at some point.

    It's never a waste of time to provide constructive feedback. So much has changed based on community input so if you want your voice to be heard, give us your thoughts. Much of the feedback we get is in the form of blanket statements about not liking the game. That's not feedback we can do anything with. Using good examples and being constructive goes a long way. That doesn't mean everything gets acted on, but it at least is heard and that's where it all begins.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »

    At the end of the day, this is a video game. It's not going to be a 1:1 recreation of the real sport. We want the game to be fun, but that's subjective. Not everyone has the same idea of what constitutes fun.

    Yes, it's a video game (obviously). But the discussion was appealing to a wider audience.

    To appeal to a wider audience (simulation league players in this case), provide unranked, 6 on 6 play with customizable sliders. In this mode, EA can provide a default sim set, and also a custom option (for further tweaks as necessary by league commissioners). Keep your ranked play as is (where everyone is Austin Matthews), and then the league players can have their own environment, nice and tucked away from your core player base.

    But you can't do that, because of limited time and budget. You know it, and I know it, as the extra R&D expense would cut into your ROI, which your stockholders are watching like a hawk.

    What you refer to as "wild assumptions", I refer to as business 101.

    Cheers.

    JTTW
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