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Just not good enough

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  • Socair
    2811 posts Game Changer
    Closing this thread as it’s turning into a call out session.
    If you want to have constructive discussions, be constructive. That was happening here, but now it deteriorated.
  • EA_Aljo
    3218 posts EA Community Manager
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Ampereturn wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It sounds like you're just giving the ol' "they're not that good and if you were good enough you could beat them like any other top player.." the thing is, I've played with a lot of top players and top clubs and many of them do hate CPU. It's easy to say how people mess up vs CPU because they read your button presses and react before your player moves sometimes so many things LOOK like mistakes that wouldn't otherwise be vs human players, hence why me posting a video makes 0 sense. I posted exactly what happens to me vs CPU. I pass, they read it and often pick it. I try to skate a bit and they catch me. Loose puck or rebound and they get it. Humans pass to CPU and they get goals. CPU usually ends up netting 3-4 goals to bring them back. exploiting is using backskate and other things not commonly used in hockey. Sure it gets you wins but at what point is something cheating? lag switching how is that different? Hiding behind the net? Invincible backskate forehand/backhand glide bys? If those are your tactics then that sounds like you don't want to play hockey but JUST want to win and you're part of the awful community that keep many actual fans of hockey from wanting to play. I want to play hockey with my friends.

    I have a small club with friends and we all have different schedules so I'm usually forced to play drops if I do want to play 6's. Out of curiosity what is your psn if on PlayStation?

    I just honestly feel I can't and won't ever be good enough to beat the CPU and until something is fixed I think I'm done playing and purchasing the game. My friends have no interest in playing anymore, they've all switched to 2k. I get why, I don't feel frustrated after every game there.. if someone quits a bad CPU takes their place. I hate basketball but at least I can play it without wanting to throw a controller. I don't mind losing in a game but when it's against a cpu with UNREAL abilities that I can't use all because I am getting punished for starting good! It's sad that if I get scored on a couple times in the first period my chances of winning increase because CPUs will come in and help. If I go down two goals I should have to dig myself out.. not just pass to a cpu and let them get me a win. I dunno if I've ever lost in 20 when I've had more CPU help than the other team.i really don't think I have.

    Point being if the ONLY people who (apparently) believe CPU's are bad (and are not using them for their advantage) are people who are playing some other mode other than drops (which I've searched for long periods of time in club and almost never find teams) and they're WAY better than I am then they must LIVE on this game. Why should the CPU be so good that they're the only ones who can beat them? I have almost 90% winning in threes almost all losses are vs teams w/ CPU usually the worse the guys we're playing the more the CPU will tend to carry. I get that EA is money hungry but how does this even make sense from a business standpoint? Are there enough bad players buying because they want to be carried? Are there so few players like me fed up with CPUs? Almost everyone I play with has these same issues. The only ones that seem to have it figured out are some people in the forums. At this point I just think sales need to drop so someone else can make a game. If there really is this done that they can't get out from then someone else needs to make a quality game where people are not using the same exploits and CPU players are not constantly beating humans by using abilities that humans cannot have.

    This game is SO good when you play with all humans and no one is using the L2 spam/ forehand/backhand glides. It's SUCH a fun game and the sky would be the limit. It's just that you almost NEVER get a game like that. CPU's kill fun. The game just induces stress anymore..

    They have come out and said they leave these things in game on purpose. Im paraphrasing here but it was something like "why should we limit how people play?" Thats the problem right there. They dont take pride in making a HOCKEY game. They want as many people as possible to buy, and i get that, so they purposely leave things in that allow people with no hockey skill or knowledge to compete. Instead of steering them in the right direction through more in game tutorials, training, whatever, its designed to allow this kind of crap to happen to appeal to a broader audience.

    Ok, leave that garbage in EA modes then. If it has NHL players in it, it should represent NHL HOCKEY. So, hut, and vs should NEVER allow this kind of play. Its a HUGE misrepresentation of the sport, and kind of a smack in the face to the real players who buy this game to play NHL style hockey. They dont even have half of the real penalties programmed into the game. In the end, its the almighty dollar that makes their design decisions....not the dev team which is unfortunate because if they had free reign over the game, i bet there would be many less complaints. Theres 2 main problems with this game...E....and A. Period

    I don't think we said it quite like that. However, forcing people to play your style of hockey doesn't seem like the answer. The sport has evolved tremendously over the 100+ years of its existence. Would you like rather goalies only play stand up like they used to? Would you like sticks to not have curved blades? I don't see a problem with people getting creative. There's a counter for everything. I'm not saying I want to see players backskating all over the place. To be fair, I'm not seeing that as frequently as it's being called out and recent changes have made it more difficult to do. Regardless, you can still defend those players. Even if they didn't backskate, how much higher are your chances of beating them? You still have to generate offense. If you can't beat them when they're LT'ing, you probably will still have a very big challenge if they aren't doing that.

    The lack of realism with LT'ing is one I definitely understand and it would really bother me if I saw it being abused in every game. No matter what game you play though, there are going to be those that look to exploit it. That's human nature, unfortunately. Game developers put a lot of work into dealing with exploits, but people are pretty crafty and continually find ways to abuse game mechanics. Yes, it's on us to remove them, but it's far easier said than done as you're often dealing with core mechanics of the game where changing them can have worse effects than leaving them in.

    It's not about the almighty dollar making decisions. It's about what is best for the game, but that is not an easy task whatsoever. The people who make this game have a huge amount of control over it. It's not one guy in a suit that doesn't know the difference between offside and icing making decisions. There are very passionate fans of the sport as well as the video game that are making it. In a perfect world they could build everything you guys want every year, but that's not the case. The technology behind it all is incredibly complex. These things take time. Then there's constantly combatting those that find ways to play the game in a manner it wasn't intended. I get how easy it is to be on the outside making the assumptions you do. I had similar assumptions before I started working here. Speaking as a very longtime fan of this game, I can tell you it's wildly different than what you think when you're at home, on the couch, yelling at your opponent for LT'ing.

    Theres a diff between being creative and straight up cheating the system. And sorry sir, but you absolutely did tell someone " why should we limit how people play?" Answer is you shouldnt...but they should also have to play some style RESEMBLING hockey to be successful. Problem is, the door is left open for the exploits and easy ways to score without playing a team game. Youre taking what i said way out of context, and being very passive aggressive which is not very nice for an EA employee. I like you guys that come on here and we ALL appreciate it...you have no idea but, maybe tone down the sarcasm, as well as the "but i play this way and its fine" attitude. Not being a jerk, just pointing out that you may not mean to but at times you come off as rude and condescending.

    Back to matter at hand, there just needs to better a better balance between the success of scoring when playing realistically versus guys who play the one man show LTing (still there btw), curling stick so hits bounce off them no matter the angle,speed, and size of your player. My point is, make it more rewarding to play as a team, and people will join in.

    Give some kind of rewards tied to actual in game performance. Dont pass the puck or use your teammates? Low score...low rewards. Set up, cycle, play hockey...higher rewards. Give incentive for people to play right.

    What I meant was that we should have some freedom for people to have their own style of play. Within certain limits. We want to avoid exploits and glitches obviously, but we should force everyone into the same playstyle. Some guys are better and a run and gun type game. Others are better at moving the puck. This is also part of your chosen strategy. If you see your opponent likes to chase the puck, playing a more team-oriented style of play would give you an advantage as they're going to leave open lanes you can use for good scoring chances. If we force everyone to play exactly the same, it probably wouldn't be much fun. Like I said though, that doesn't mean we promote exploiting game mechanics. Steps have been taken to make LT'ing less affective and I know this is being monitored by the dev team.

    If your hits are bouncing off them, you need to recognize that you're not generating enough momentum with your hit and you're probably not using a good angle. Instead of going for hits, wait until they give you a better opportunity for a poke, stick lift or incidental contact. They slow down a lot when curling the stick behind their back. You can take advantage of this.

    It can be very rewarding to play as a team, but many people choose not to do this or they might not be as good at it as they think. The tools for you to cycle the puck are there. It's up to you to use them. As far as having higher rewards for teamplay goes, I like the idea, but it also opens up more exploiting. For example, if you got better rewards for passing more, you could see guys ragging the puck more and just keep passing it around in their zone. With every change to the game, you have to consider how it can be abused. I'd rather see team play rewarded by people realizing they raise their chances at winning by generating better scoring chances with cycling. You have to consider also that if someone is getting away with selfish play, it's partly because their opponent is letting them.

    You say the game of hockey is evolving.. the problem is that the game isn't.. when it does it evolves in ways that the sport isn't. How many times do we see 1 hand tucks in the NHL? How many time per GAME do we see people score with this online?

    Momentum and angle have NOTHING to do with the glide glitch. Some of your posts suggest you've not ACTUALLY played this game. You put the puck on your forehand or backhand and turn/glide against a player going in for a hit. You won't take the hit the player trying to hit will usually stumble. There is almost no way to beat this 1 on 1 unless you get help from another player leaving someone else open. This happens in any game you play with a team that knows how to use it. This is not about how you wanna play but how you want to cheat the system sometimes.. this post is getting off topic though. It's about how the cpu:'s have been programmed to be gods.

    I think that today's hockey isn't the same as it was 20+ years ago. It's definitely a lot different than 50 years back. The sport has certainly evolved, but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

    If you hit someone curling the puck behind their back with enough force behind their hit and from the right angle, you're going to knock them off the puck and in most cases, knock them to the ice. What you're talking about is effective when you switch to a player that is near the carrier and they go for a hit when as the carrier is fading away from them. The defender hasn't built up enough force behind the hit to knock the puck loose.

    Those that cheat the system are playing how they want to play. I'm not ok with this. I'm not saying they should be allowed to exploit the game. The reality is, there will always be ways to exploit the game. Just like how you can exploit pretty much anything with rules. Regardless, you should have a certain amount of freedom to play according to your own style. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone to tell you you're only allowed to make 2 passes before you have to shoot. Well, if that's effective for someone, why shouldn't they use it? It's on you to learn how to defend it. Yes, it's not exactly realistic hockey, but how are you going to force someone to play what you deem to be realistic hockey? Look at guys using the Lacrosse goal this year. You've also seen a lot more between the legs goals in the last few years. Should these not be allowed because they're not exactly traditional ways to score?

    The CPU players are not programmed to be gods. We see feedback on both sides of this though. They're either too good or they're too bad. Some people know how to defend them, some don't. The ones that don't are more inclined to say they're godlike instead of adapt to how they play. I used to struggle against superstar AI. When I learned how to play them, they became less of a threat. I'm not saying the AI players don't need improvement. There's room for that for sure, but I can't agree they are gods on the ice.

    Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about. As I already told you, take a challenge, play Drop-In 6v6 for a week. When human players quit the game, AI forwards show you how poor your defense is. After that, come back and post your comment here.

    I most definitely know what I'm talking about. When you have human defenders that know how to play against the AI, they are very beatable.

    Omg, how far you are from the truth. You are playing your club together with your teamates, that's all. This is completely different case. In drop-in you have random teamates and human goalies. You definitely don't understand and you completely missed the point. This is the reason why I'm telling you take a challenge and play the same way like many of us are playing on daily basis. Only then you will be able to fix this broken mode and your eyes will open. You will see that AI defenders are completely useless and are not able to defend AI forwards. And where are our human defenders, maybe you are asking yourself. I will tell you, they already quit the game for unknown reasons. So as you can see from this example, drop-in is very different and that's the reason why godlike AI forwards ruin the game mode which was intended to be played mostly by human players. We cannot enjoy this game mode anymore.

    I am very well aware of the AIs in drop-ins as well. That's why I said, it takes human defenders to know how to stop them. There have been many times where I'm the one guy that knows how to play against the AI, but the others on my side don't. It doesn't work out too well because one human defender against 3 AI forwards, is a very steep challenge.

    Guys, I definitely understand the frustration. I've had to deal with it as well. However, there isn't a good solution at the moment. If something is implemented, it's going to take time. It's not going to be an overnight process. Feedback on this is picking up steam and I've relayed it back to the dev team. I really don't know if this is something that would be addressed in NHL 20. There's no confirmation that it could change for future games either. We'll have to wait and see, but we're all aware of the feedback here and in the past community feedback has driven many changes.

    Thanks for all the input, guys.
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