EA Forums - Banner

NHL 20 Patch Details April 3rd

image
Check out our April 3rd patch details here.

Make the game play the same for both teams

Replies

  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    So basically, there is no "even" playing field for difficulty. Which is a huge flaw in this game. I want to play a game where Ovie plays like Ovie. Where Andrew Shaw doesn't pass like Wayne Gretzky. Where a team with a 75 rated goalie doesn't play like a 95 rated goalie.

    From what you've said, it appears this game cannot meet those expectations. I understand that everyone has their preference in sliders, but, you being a developer and saying you have the ins/outs of the game, then saying you don't have details on specific slider settings? Confused. Does anyone?

    Sorry, getting frustrated because every time I ask that question it gets ignored, and this includes last few years. Plus it's like there is some unsolved or unexplained mystery to the sliders (let alone some sliders feel opposite or not explained well.) Like I said, I want to enjoy the game, but my fun factor with this series has dwindled massively over the past few years. The path EA is taking with this series is a dark one.

    If the devs can't give us specific answers other than generalities on what would make the game even (based on player ratings), then there is definitely something wrong with this game.
    We have tried to answer in the past but you may be missing a piece on how it works to fully understand it.

    I think you are looking at two different pieces. You are talking about artificial favoring (thinking that is done at the game style level or something) vs skill level differences.

    There isn't any artificial favoring when it comes to the game mechanics. The game mechanics change with the preset (arcade up to full sim) which controls how forgiving or not certain mechanics are or the general speeds of skating, passing, shooting, effect of hits, etc.. That is essentially the tuning for the sandbox you are playing in and how the world is tuned which is the same for all players in the game.

    In that regard you have also asked what attributes do. In all presets, attributes factor in to the models so a player with higher shot accuracy will have a more accurate shot than one that is lower or a player with better body checking will have an easier time knocking over a player relative to one with low body checking. However, on Arcade settings, shots are more forgiving and body checking is more powerful. When you raise those base levels, because you can't get more accurate than perfect accuracy or a bigger impact than a big full fall, you are essentially crushing the range of player differentiation. On Full Sim settings or if you tweak the sliders further adding more potential error, etc. you can increase the possible range further. But no matter what, the attributes are giving you a range from the worst players to the beset players in each attribute. We have done what we feel is best for each preset but it is obviously subjective what people feel is realistic so even when people make their own full sim sliders, all trying to recreate what they feel is realistic, there are multiple slider sets out there. Different slider sets doesn't mean that attributes don't matter, but it could mean that the worst shot could miss the net by a larger distance or that it takes less settling and a lower attribute to be able to get to a perfect shot. But again in all those cases a player with the best attribute will still perform the best.

    As far as difficulty, it changes the ai's ability to react quickly, notice open players for passes, how often they attempt dekes and their timing of them, notice open parts of the net, etc.. These differences are more about the recreation of the human brain controlling the action inside the environment and would be similar to those differences between two human players when one player has faster reaction time, more precision on their controller or better recognition of the play ahead than the other. As EA_Aljo mentioned, different difficulties will be better matches for you depending on who you are and what your personal skill level is.

    The other piece you are referring to is how the difficulty works for the ai players on your team and how we either help you make up for your own gaps in your skill or give you a challenge.

    When you are playing unlocked, where you can switch to any player on the ice, you are in control of all of the offensive play and on the defensive side, it depends on how active you are (and in online, we don't have ai players perform defensive actions in unlocked games so you control everything but your other players positioning).

    The piece you are referring to there in terms of balance is probably the ability of your ai teammates. On All Star, both your teams ai and your opponents are All Star -- that may be what you mean by even but your personal skill as you switch to different players may be even with or improve or deplete from your teams general skill -- and again on offense, you control everything anyways. For all difficulties, the human teammates are All Star and it is the ai team that changes through the other difficulties as you switch through. It is done this way as it has proved that a human playing on lower difficulties has needed the most help in retrieving pucks and getting the puck back and are usually hindering their team by being less skilled themselves. On Superstar, we expect the human player that is looking for a challenge to be making up the gap in skill in reaction time, etc. themselves, doing more switching, etc. and relying on their ai players even less than they would on All Star. All online VS games and EASHL has the ai on All Star as well. There are one off cases in modes like Ones where goalie skill changes as you progress through the rounds but that is a separate piece.

    For player locked games, it is handled differently because we don't want a balance problem as one team would just always win with 4 of the 5 players (regardless of offense or defense) being controlled by ai. So in those cases, the difficulty moves up and down evenly (Semi Pro on both sides, Pro on both sides, etc.) and players should again be trying to get a difficulty that matches as close as they can to what their skill level is so that all players on the ice are essentially the same as each other.

    I unfortunately haven't had time to go back and proofread this but hope it helps give you the pieces and taps into what you are asking.
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    For player locked games, it is handled differently because we don't want a balance problem as one team would just always win with 4 of the 5 players (regardless of offense or defense) being controlled by ai. So in those cases, the difficulty moves up and down evenly (Semi Pro on both sides, Pro on both sides, etc.) and players should again be trying to get a difficulty that matches as close as they can to what their skill level is so that all players on the ice are essentially the same as each other.

    I unfortunately haven't had time to go back and proofread this but hope it helps give you the pieces and taps into what you are asking.

    I appreciate the further explanation. So out of the box, human team plays at an All Star level. And in theory, if I put the game on "Full Sim" (no adjustments) with All Star difficulty, then that would be considered the even playing field?

    Guess I'm still a little confused for position lock. If I put the game on All Star, then both teams (including my AI teammates) will play with the "All Star" difficulty, correct? Or, if I play on PRO, both teams play at the PRO level? Because when I do this on PRO, my team always dominates no matter what. I can score quite a bit, and dominate goals and shots. My team is just faster and better. However, on All Star, it always feels like the CPU dominates with faster passing as you say, and more. Maybe there is something more to position lock then...?

    EX:
    I can play as Chicago against NJ as RD position lock on PRO. I'll dominate in goals, shots, and TOA. Using the same slider settings, but switching the difficulty to All Star, the CPU will dominate. NJ will play above their player ratings. The NJ goalie in my game as a 75 ovr, but plays like a 95. My goalie, a 85, plays like a 75. This is where I get frustrated and lost as to what is going on. The logic to me doesn't make sense if both teams should be same difficulty on position lock.

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    So basically, there is no "even" playing field for difficulty. Which is a huge flaw in this game. I want to play a game where Ovie plays like Ovie. Where Andrew Shaw doesn't pass like Wayne Gretzky. Where a team with a 75 rated goalie doesn't play like a 95 rated goalie.

    From what you've said, it appears this game cannot meet those expectations. I understand that everyone has their preference in sliders, but, you being a developer and saying you have the ins/outs of the game, then saying you don't have details on specific slider settings? Confused. Does anyone?

    Sorry, getting frustrated because every time I ask that question it gets ignored, and this includes last few years. Plus it's like there is some unsolved or unexplained mystery to the sliders (let alone some sliders feel opposite or not explained well.) Like I said, I want to enjoy the game, but my fun factor with this series has dwindled massively over the past few years. The path EA is taking with this series is a dark one.

    If the devs can't give us specific answers other than generalities on what would make the game even (based on player ratings), then there is definitely something wrong with this game.
    We have tried to answer in the past but you may be missing a piece on how it works to fully understand it.

    I think you are looking at two different pieces. You are talking about artificial favoring (thinking that is done at the game style level or something) vs skill level differences.

    There isn't any artificial favoring when it comes to the game mechanics. The game mechanics change with the preset (arcade up to full sim) which controls how forgiving or not certain mechanics are or the general speeds of skating, passing, shooting, effect of hits, etc.. That is essentially the tuning for the sandbox you are playing in and how the world is tuned which is the same for all players in the game.

    In that regard you have also asked what attributes do. In all presets, attributes factor in to the models so a player with higher shot accuracy will have a more accurate shot than one that is lower or a player with better body checking will have an easier time knocking over a player relative to one with low body checking. However, on Arcade settings, shots are more forgiving and body checking is more powerful. When you raise those base levels, because you can't get more accurate than perfect accuracy or a bigger impact than a big full fall, you are essentially crushing the range of player differentiation. On Full Sim settings or if you tweak the sliders further adding more potential error, etc. you can increase the possible range further. But no matter what, the attributes are giving you a range from the worst players to the beset players in each attribute. We have done what we feel is best for each preset but it is obviously subjective what people feel is realistic so even when people make their own full sim sliders, all trying to recreate what they feel is realistic, there are multiple slider sets out there. Different slider sets doesn't mean that attributes don't matter, but it could mean that the worst shot could miss the net by a larger distance or that it takes less settling and a lower attribute to be able to get to a perfect shot. But again in all those cases a player with the best attribute will still perform the best.

    As far as difficulty, it changes the ai's ability to react quickly, notice open players for passes, how often they attempt dekes and their timing of them, notice open parts of the net, etc.. These differences are more about the recreation of the human brain controlling the action inside the environment and would be similar to those differences between two human players when one player has faster reaction time, more precision on their controller or better recognition of the play ahead than the other. As EA_Aljo mentioned, different difficulties will be better matches for you depending on who you are and what your personal skill level is.

    The other piece you are referring to is how the difficulty works for the ai players on your team and how we either help you make up for your own gaps in your skill or give you a challenge.

    When you are playing unlocked, where you can switch to any player on the ice, you are in control of all of the offensive play and on the defensive side, it depends on how active you are (and in online, we don't have ai players perform defensive actions in unlocked games so you control everything but your other players positioning).

    The piece you are referring to there in terms of balance is probably the ability of your ai teammates. On All Star, both your teams ai and your opponents are All Star -- that may be what you mean by even but your personal skill as you switch to different players may be even with or improve or deplete from your teams general skill -- and again on offense, you control everything anyways. For all difficulties, the human teammates are All Star and it is the ai team that changes through the other difficulties as you switch through. It is done this way as it has proved that a human playing on lower difficulties has needed the most help in retrieving pucks and getting the puck back and are usually hindering their team by being less skilled themselves. On Superstar, we expect the human player that is looking for a challenge to be making up the gap in skill in reaction time, etc. themselves, doing more switching, etc. and relying on their ai players even less than they would on All Star. All online VS games and EASHL has the ai on All Star as well. There are one off cases in modes like Ones where goalie skill changes as you progress through the rounds but that is a separate piece.

    For player locked games, it is handled differently because we don't want a balance problem as one team would just always win with 4 of the 5 players (regardless of offense or defense) being controlled by ai. So in those cases, the difficulty moves up and down evenly (Semi Pro on both sides, Pro on both sides, etc.) and players should again be trying to get a difficulty that matches as close as they can to what their skill level is so that all players on the ice are essentially the same as each other.

    I unfortunately haven't had time to go back and proofread this but hope it helps give you the pieces and taps into what you are asking.

    Daaaaaaaamn. When you decide to go all out, you aim for 110% huh?

    Great detail. Thanks Ben.
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    For player locked games, it is handled differently because we don't want a balance problem as one team would just always win with 4 of the 5 players (regardless of offense or defense) being controlled by ai. So in those cases, the difficulty moves up and down evenly (Semi Pro on both sides, Pro on both sides, etc.) and players should again be trying to get a difficulty that matches as close as they can to what their skill level is so that all players on the ice are essentially the same as each other.

    I unfortunately haven't had time to go back and proofread this but hope it helps give you the pieces and taps into what you are asking.

    I appreciate the further explanation. So out of the box, human team plays at an All Star level. And in theory, if I put the game on "Full Sim" (no adjustments) with All Star difficulty, then that would be considered the even playing field?

    Guess I'm still a little confused for position lock. If I put the game on All Star, then both teams (including my AI teammates) will play with the "All Star" difficulty, correct? Or, if I play on PRO, both teams play at the PRO level? Because when I do this on PRO, my team always dominates no matter what. I can score quite a bit, and dominate goals and shots. My team is just faster and better. However, on All Star, it always feels like the CPU dominates with faster passing as you say, and more. Maybe there is something more to position lock then...?

    EX:
    I can play as Chicago against NJ as RD position lock on PRO. I'll dominate in goals, shots, and TOA. Using the same slider settings, but switching the difficulty to All Star, the CPU will dominate. NJ will play above their player ratings. The NJ goalie in my game as a 75 ovr, but plays like a 95. My goalie, a 85, plays like a 75. This is where I get frustrated and lost as to what is going on. The logic to me doesn't make sense if both teams should be same difficulty on position lock.
    Yep, what you described is correct. The game style (Full Sim) doesn't change anything as far as difficulty though -- it would just determine how realistic the base game style settings are or not.

    Are you noticing the differences mostly in what happens when you are on the ice, in the sim or both?

    How much do you feel you are personally impacting the play in your dominance and defeat? Are you on the scoresheet a lot yourself? On defense are you responsible for a lot of the takeaways and defensive plays to shut down your opponent?
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    So basically, there is no "even" playing field for difficulty. Which is a huge flaw in this game. I want to play a game where Ovie plays like Ovie. Where Andrew Shaw doesn't pass like Wayne Gretzky. Where a team with a 75 rated goalie doesn't play like a 95 rated goalie.

    From what you've said, it appears this game cannot meet those expectations. I understand that everyone has their preference in sliders, but, you being a developer and saying you have the ins/outs of the game, then saying you don't have details on specific slider settings? Confused. Does anyone?

    Sorry, getting frustrated because every time I ask that question it gets ignored, and this includes last few years. Plus it's like there is some unsolved or unexplained mystery to the sliders (let alone some sliders feel opposite or not explained well.) Like I said, I want to enjoy the game, but my fun factor with this series has dwindled massively over the past few years. The path EA is taking with this series is a dark one.

    If the devs can't give us specific answers other than generalities on what would make the game even (based on player ratings), then there is definitely something wrong with this game.
    We have tried to answer in the past but you may be missing a piece on how it works to fully understand it.

    I think you are looking at two different pieces. You are talking about artificial favoring (thinking that is done at the game style level or something) vs skill level differences.

    There isn't any artificial favoring when it comes to the game mechanics. The game mechanics change with the preset (arcade up to full sim) which controls how forgiving or not certain mechanics are or the general speeds of skating, passing, shooting, effect of hits, etc.. That is essentially the tuning for the sandbox you are playing in and how the world is tuned which is the same for all players in the game.

    In that regard you have also asked what attributes do. In all presets, attributes factor in to the models so a player with higher shot accuracy will have a more accurate shot than one that is lower or a player with better body checking will have an easier time knocking over a player relative to one with low body checking. However, on Arcade settings, shots are more forgiving and body checking is more powerful. When you raise those base levels, because you can't get more accurate than perfect accuracy or a bigger impact than a big full fall, you are essentially crushing the range of player differentiation. On Full Sim settings or if you tweak the sliders further adding more potential error, etc. you can increase the possible range further. But no matter what, the attributes are giving you a range from the worst players to the beset players in each attribute. We have done what we feel is best for each preset but it is obviously subjective what people feel is realistic so even when people make their own full sim sliders, all trying to recreate what they feel is realistic, there are multiple slider sets out there. Different slider sets doesn't mean that attributes don't matter, but it could mean that the worst shot could miss the net by a larger distance or that it takes less settling and a lower attribute to be able to get to a perfect shot. But again in all those cases a player with the best attribute will still perform the best.

    As far as difficulty, it changes the ai's ability to react quickly, notice open players for passes, how often they attempt dekes and their timing of them, notice open parts of the net, etc.. These differences are more about the recreation of the human brain controlling the action inside the environment and would be similar to those differences between two human players when one player has faster reaction time, more precision on their controller or better recognition of the play ahead than the other. As EA_Aljo mentioned, different difficulties will be better matches for you depending on who you are and what your personal skill level is.

    The other piece you are referring to is how the difficulty works for the ai players on your team and how we either help you make up for your own gaps in your skill or give you a challenge.

    When you are playing unlocked, where you can switch to any player on the ice, you are in control of all of the offensive play and on the defensive side, it depends on how active you are (and in online, we don't have ai players perform defensive actions in unlocked games so you control everything but your other players positioning).

    The piece you are referring to there in terms of balance is probably the ability of your ai teammates. On All Star, both your teams ai and your opponents are All Star -- that may be what you mean by even but your personal skill as you switch to different players may be even with or improve or deplete from your teams general skill -- and again on offense, you control everything anyways. For all difficulties, the human teammates are All Star and it is the ai team that changes through the other difficulties as you switch through. It is done this way as it has proved that a human playing on lower difficulties has needed the most help in retrieving pucks and getting the puck back and are usually hindering their team by being less skilled themselves. On Superstar, we expect the human player that is looking for a challenge to be making up the gap in skill in reaction time, etc. themselves, doing more switching, etc. and relying on their ai players even less than they would on All Star. All online VS games and EASHL has the ai on All Star as well. There are one off cases in modes like Ones where goalie skill changes as you progress through the rounds but that is a separate piece.

    For player locked games, it is handled differently because we don't want a balance problem as one team would just always win with 4 of the 5 players (regardless of offense or defense) being controlled by ai. So in those cases, the difficulty moves up and down evenly (Semi Pro on both sides, Pro on both sides, etc.) and players should again be trying to get a difficulty that matches as close as they can to what their skill level is so that all players on the ice are essentially the same as each other.

    I unfortunately haven't had time to go back and proofread this but hope it helps give you the pieces and taps into what you are asking.

    @NHLDev , thank you for the explanation, really appreciate it. I think, that reaction time and speed of AI at All-Star difficulty level should be toned down a bit to make their play more like human players. Yes, they can play smarter and good positionally, but it is so much artificial, when you boost their reaction time and speed. As a human goalie, you have almost no chance. Yes, we can beat them, but we cannot enjoy the game because it looks like you are playing against cheaters. For example, look at EASHL Drop-In game. Nobody wants to play against AI forwards. They are scoring game winning goals. It ruins the game. Sometimes it's very difficult to stop them because you know, you are playing with random teammates. This is so bad and really frustrating.
  • Steven5470
    349 posts Member
    edited February 21
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Yep, what you described is correct. The game style (Full Sim) doesn't change anything as far as difficulty though -- it would just determine how realistic the base game style settings are or not.

    Are you noticing the differences mostly in what happens when you are on the ice, in the sim or both?

    How much do you feel you are personally impacting the play in your dominance and defeat? Are you on the scoresheet a lot yourself? On defense are you responsible for a lot of the takeaways and defensive plays to shut down your opponent?

    I notice a difference when I'm on the ice (position lock). i do make some impact, but the most part it's my AI teammates. I play locked at RD, so I'm not on the score sheet too much.

    The huge impact my own teammates make is with penalties. Even with the penalty sliders equal, my AI teammates commit a ton of penalties, but the opposing AI hardly gets any. This has been an issue in this series for years. As I posted in another thread, in 5 games I think I had 6 PP to the opposing CPU's 24+. However, I also believe this to be a difficulty level thing and not sure why. On PRO, it doesn't happen as much, but All Star, it's quite frequent.

    "@NHLDev , thank you for the explanation, really appreciate it. I think, that reaction time and speed of AI at All-Star difficulty level should be toned down a bit to make their play more like human players. Yes, they can play smarter and good positionally, but it is so much artificial, when you boost their reaction time and speed. "

    This might be the huge reason. The AI doesn't seem to make mistakes. Not because they are capitalizing on my faults, but because they are just pinpoint accurate. One example is when you have the CPU pinned against the boards behind your net. The CPU can amazingly still pass the puck to the front of the net....at high speed. Yet, the player is pinned to the boards? Or, as Venom as pointed out, the extremely fast passing that occasionally occurs by the CPU. They can also pinpoint pass to the front of the net right on their teammates stick. When you see that, it's as if the ratings don't matter or that feeling of the CPU getting the boost.

    There is no human element to the CPU. If I ask you what 25+25 is, you take a second to think. The computer, however, knows the answer immediately. In other words, they act based on programming and pinpoint accuracy. Pass here at this angle and at this moment. There is no "thought" process behind it.

    If it can't be toned down (human element added), what is your suggestion for the sliders? How much would dropping each CPU slider by 5 affect them?


    Thanks.
    Post edited by Steven5470 on
  • bryta47
    373 posts Member
    edited February 19
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    .
    If it can't be toned down (human element added), what is your suggestion for the sliders? How much would dropping each CPU slider by 5 affect them?

    The first thing you should do is nerf CPU passing by dropping pass accuracy and pass reception ease. Try them fairly low and experiment. You can also manipulate CPU puck control.

    Lowering these sliders for all-star CPU makes them somewhat more "human".
  • Steven5470
    349 posts Member
    edited February 25
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    .
    If it can't be toned down (human element added), what is your suggestion for the sliders? How much would dropping each CPU slider by 5 affect them?

    The first thing you should do is nerf CPU passing by dropping pass accuracy and pass reception ease. Try them fairly low and experiment. You can also manipulate CPU puck control.

    Lowering these sliders for all-star CPU makes them somewhat more "human".

    I've just about given up on this game. I tried what the devs said and put the game on All Star Full Sim (even difficultly and game play?), with no slider changes. I wanted the game to play according to the player ratings, not some extra sliders that wash out ratings.

    What happened, was the game was kept close again. I score, they score, I score, they scored again. And of course, there was the under one minute of play goal scored by the AI. Happens every game. You can write down things like breakaway goals, bad pass leads to a goal, amazing angle goal, last minute goal, etc...and literally check those off each game. It just feels scripted each game.

    Question for the Devs or @NHLDev :
    Under settings in gameplay presets for Competitive: What exactly do you mean by "balanced and competitive style of play"? What exactly is balanced? From reading it, I'm think if I want a game to play more to the player ratings, that should be on competitive with All Star difficulty. I assume all star is even difficulty between HUM and CPU.

    What bothers me is Full Sim says "ultra-realistic". To me, if something is "ultra" it's more than the norm, which means probably some favoritism going on. You can't be more "real" than the player ratings. Other wise, it should just be "realistic".

    Let me add to this: If we put the settings at Full Sim, then make slider adjustments, does the game retain the "full sim" underlying code still? Or once sliders are adjusted it wipes it out? I ask because in years past, we would make the change first, which some felt did affect how the game played. Kind of like adding red paint to a canvas, then painting over it with blue. The red is still there and affecting the color of the blue slightly, but it is now blue.
    Post edited by Steven5470 on
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    .
    If it can't be toned down (human element added), what is your suggestion for the sliders? How much would dropping each CPU slider by 5 affect them?

    The first thing you should do is nerf CPU passing by dropping pass accuracy and pass reception ease. Try them fairly low and experiment. You can also manipulate CPU puck control.

    Lowering these sliders for all-star CPU makes them somewhat more "human".

    I've just about given up on this game. I tried what the devs said and put the game on All Star Full Sim (even difficultly and game play?), with no slider changes. I wanted the game to play according to the player ratings, not some extra sliders that wash out ratings.

    What happened, was the game was kept close again. I score, they score, I score, they scored again. And of course, there was the under one minute of play goal scored by the AI. Happens every game. You can write down things like breakaway goals, bad pass leads to a goal, amazing angle goal, last minute goal, etc...and literally check those off each game. It just feels scripted each game.

    Question for the Devs or @NHLDev :
    Under settings in gameplay presets for Competitive: What exactly do you mean by "balanced and competitive style of play"? What exactly is balanced? From reading it, I'm think if I want a game to play more to the player ratings, that should be on competitive with All Star difficulty. I assume all star is even difficulty between HUM and CPU.

    What bothers me is Full Sim says "ultra-realistic". To me, if something is "ultra" it's more than the norm, which means probably some favoritism going on. You can't be more "real" than the player ratings. Other wise, it should just be "realistic".

    Let me add to this: If we put the settings at Full Sim, then make slider adjustments, does the game retain the "full sim" underlying code still? Or once sliders are adjusted it wipes it out? I ask because in years past, we would make the change first, which some felt did affect how the game played. Kind of like adding red paint to a canvas, then painting over it with blue. The red is still there and affecting the color of the blue slightly, but it is now blue.

    All of our mechanics are built based on what we see from reality and the game styles are tuned to be more or less forgiving in those mechanics.

    It is all subjective when it comes down to a lot of the details but Full Sim as a general rule has more realistic speeds, more room for error and bigger impacts when a player is trying to do something physically tough to do, etc.

    When you are adjusting sliders, it depends where you are setting them if the game is becoming more 'sim' or more 'arcade' but other than what you change, the rest all stays as is.

    Is there a reason you don't play Full Sim but on Pro if All Star isn't quite right? Or Use Full Sim and All Star but adjust things for the CPU only to add some more error to them, etc.?
  • @NHLDev
    When you say the "rest all stays as is" after adjusting sliders, what do you mean? So If I put the game at Full Sim, then make adjustments, will I still retain that "realistic speeds, more room for error" or do those mechanics get washed out when adjustments are made?

    The issue is that I never feel like I'm playing with a "good" team. Every game feels equal, no matter what team you use or play against. This is especially apparent if you play a high rated team vs a low ratedone.
    It feels like the Madden 20 option of evening the ratings is now in play. Every game seems to only be won by 1 goal, and you can rinse and repeat the situations that happen in each game. I think the last 5 games I played all had a goal scored in the last minute of play...each team had a comeback to tie the game....it's so rinse and repeat with each game.

    I put the game on Full Sim, made my own adjustments (very minor) and it felt "okay". Then I put the game a notch below on "Competitive" and that definitely didn't feel balanced as the description mentions. The AI team definitely felt like it had more an advantage in speed, shot accuracy, etc.

    Maybe all this boils down to position lock. If I'm locked onto a player, then ALL my AI teammates should be playing as if it was a CPU v CPU game. But they don't. They still feel "human" compared to the other team AI. Passes are missed, shots, missed, hits missed and my players constantly get penalties called against them even though the sliders are identical.

    Over the years we've been told PRO "favors" the HUM and All Star is "even playing field" difficulty level. But it doesn't feel like that. And for some reason, playing on PRO, the AI teams seem to play more realistically than they do on All Star. But the disadvantage is that I will dominate on PRO. Something is definitely off in this game and has been for awhile now.

    That's why i'm curious what your slider settings are since you know the ins and outs. Maybe you have a setting that is affecting other pieces of the game. One slider adjustment can make or break things....but you would know more of that than us. So I'm curious what your set is and why settings.
  • Yeah, @NHLDev, what custom slider-settings are you using when you yourself want to play more sim like hockey offline?

    Please share! :)
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    Steven5470 wrote: »
    @NHLDev
    When you say the "rest all stays as is" after adjusting sliders, what do you mean? So If I put the game at Full Sim, then make adjustments, will I still retain that "realistic speeds, more room for error" or do those mechanics get washed out when adjustments are made?

    The issue is that I never feel like I'm playing with a "good" team. Every game feels equal, no matter what team you use or play against. This is especially apparent if you play a high rated team vs a low ratedone.
    It feels like the Madden 20 option of evening the ratings is now in play. Every game seems to only be won by 1 goal, and you can rinse and repeat the situations that happen in each game. I think the last 5 games I played all had a goal scored in the last minute of play...each team had a comeback to tie the game....it's so rinse and repeat with each game.

    I put the game on Full Sim, made my own adjustments (very minor) and it felt "okay". Then I put the game a notch below on "Competitive" and that definitely didn't feel balanced as the description mentions. The AI team definitely felt like it had more an advantage in speed, shot accuracy, etc.

    Maybe all this boils down to position lock. If I'm locked onto a player, then ALL my AI teammates should be playing as if it was a CPU v CPU game. But they don't. They still feel "human" compared to the other team AI. Passes are missed, shots, missed, hits missed and my players constantly get penalties called against them even though the sliders are identical.

    Over the years we've been told PRO "favors" the HUM and All Star is "even playing field" difficulty level. But it doesn't feel like that. And for some reason, playing on PRO, the AI teams seem to play more realistically than they do on All Star. But the disadvantage is that I will dominate on PRO. Something is definitely off in this game and has been for awhile now.

    That's why i'm curious what your slider settings are since you know the ins and outs. Maybe you have a setting that is affecting other pieces of the game. One slider adjustment can make or break things....but you would know more of that than us. So I'm curious what your set is and why settings.

    It all depends what you adjust. If you go in and change all the skating sliders to make them super fast, you are no longer getting the speeds that come from Full Sim. Anything you don't change is as is though. So if you want it to feel like Full Sim but see less clean puck receptions, you go into those sliders and make them less forgiving and so on.

    The ai may very well be better when playing on Competitive game style because it is just more forgiving than Full Sim. They don't necessarily know the mechanics are going to be more harsh on them playing in that game style so they may not make up for it in the way they play. So they may get away with a few more things as you move towards more arcade gameplay than they would playing on Full Sim. That will also become true as you modify sliders. They may still play their game and not realize they should pass less in certain scenarios due to pass receptions being more difficult, etc. but the impact of that game style is the same on the human as it is on the ai.

    I don't have enough time these days to play with custom sliders offline. It takes all of my time to get the current game in a good place we can ship it and anytime I do get to play at home, I like to play the current defaults to see things through the eyes of our players and tend to play Online VS the most and WOC second (6v6 gameplay more than anything else).

    I don't agree with many sim players that turn the speeds way down to 0, etc. and stand by something closer to what we have at default for Full Sim. I also don't agree with how far some people go with the error they add when they try to make something simulation. NHL players aren't bobbling ever pass, etc. but I also feel that our default Full Sim gameplay is really only balanced to 8 minute periods or so. If you want to get to higher period lengths, you may need to hit things like fatigue effect, acceleration, pass abilities and some of the puck control pieces a bit more to ensure the progression towards higher shot totals takes a bit more effort and time -- but I am also not sure how many minutes you want your periods to be.

    At some point it does come down to a players personal skill with the game. If you aren't great at passing on the twitch side of things, you may not need to adjust things on the pass mechanic side for the human settings and only on the ai side. And all things could be looked at that way.

    I know this doesn't give you a silver bullet answer but I am not sure I could give you one. Try anyones sliders and you may like them or hate them.

    As far as balance in the games go. The NHL prides themselves on the current parity and balance in their league and callout things like the come from behind victories being a lot higher as a result. We don't do anything to manipulate these things but if we are simulating things correctly, comparing to real life, you will see a lot of close games and come from behind wins. Also, that said, the mechanic we have for the last minute being longer also skews things when you are looking at how many goals are scored in the last minute. That is like saying there are a lot of goals scored between the 12th and 18th minute of the game due to the time scaling. When we looked at data, across a massive sample size, every minute of gameplay pretty much has the same goals scored on average other than the first minute of the period (since it guarantees a center ice faceoff and thus the puck has less chance of being near the net) and the times we slow down the time scale at the end of the period and those increases were proportionate to the scale.
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Yeah, @NHLDev, what custom slider-settings are you using when you yourself want to play more sim like hockey offline?

    Please share! :)

    I always just suggest going to full sim and tuning from there to your liking. I haven't taken the time lately to go in and do that. If I do, maybe we will make some adjustments to Full Sim but I think it is a decent out of the box experience with room for people to tune depending on the period lengths they want and how things play for them personally. Full Sim on 7 or 8 minutes and a few tweaks here or there should be pretty good for a lot of people looking for sim.
  • Fair enough!
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Yeah, @NHLDev, what custom slider-settings are you using when you yourself want to play more sim like hockey offline?

    Please share! :)

    I always just suggest going to full sim and tuning from there to your liking. I haven't taken the time lately to go in and do that. If I do, maybe we will make some adjustments to Full Sim but I think it is a decent out of the box experience with room for people to tune depending on the period lengths they want and how things play for them personally. Full Sim on 7 or 8 minutes and a few tweaks here or there should be pretty good for a lot of people looking for sim.

    Speaking of sim, any chance we see board friction in EASHL somewhere down the line?
  • NHLDev
    1668 posts EA NHL Developer
    I always just suggest going to full sim and tuning from there to your liking. I haven't taken the time lately to go in and do that. If I do, maybe we will make some adjustments to Full Sim but I think it is a decent out of the box experience with room for people to tune depending on the period lengths they want and how things play for them personally. Full Sim on 7 or 8 minutes and a few tweaks here or there should be pretty good for a lot of people looking for sim.

    Speaking of sim, any chance we see board friction in EASHL somewhere down the line?[/quote]

    What are you looking for from increased friction?
  • VeNOM2099
    3174 posts Member
    edited March 1
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I always just suggest going to full sim and tuning from there to your liking. I haven't taken the time lately to go in and do that. If I do, maybe we will make some adjustments to Full Sim but I think it is a decent out of the box experience with room for people to tune depending on the period lengths they want and how things play for them personally. Full Sim on 7 or 8 minutes and a few tweaks here or there should be pretty good for a lot of people looking for sim.
    Speaking of sim, any chance we see board friction in EASHL somewhere down the line?

    What are you looking for from increased friction?

    I'm guessing so that people can't use the boards as a trampoline to bounce off and go the other way without losing speed (or the puck). There is a setting in game that makes you stumble if you hit the boards (with and without the puck). I think it's on ZERO with the current online settings. I've tried it offline with 25 (with the puck) and 15 (without) it and it looks/feels good. Anything higher and the AI becomes a problem as they somehow are not aware of the boards as a physical barrier and like slamming into it for fun...
  • The-Sporty-Hero
    598 posts Member
    edited March 1
    I think the user interface should even out during face offs, shootouts and passing connection.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    I always just suggest going to full sim and tuning from there to your liking. I haven't taken the time lately to go in and do that. If I do, maybe we will make some adjustments to Full Sim but I think it is a decent out of the box experience with room for people to tune depending on the period lengths they want and how things play for them personally. Full Sim on 7 or 8 minutes and a few tweaks here or there should be pretty good for a lot of people looking for sim.
    Speaking of sim, any chance we see board friction in EASHL somewhere down the line?

    What are you looking for from increased friction?

    I'm guessing so that people can't use the boards as a trampoline to bounce off and go the other way without losing speed (or the puck). There is a setting in game that makes you stumble if you hit the boards (with and without the puck). I think it's on ZERO with the current online settings. I've tried it offline with 25 (with the puck) and 15 (without) it and it looks/feels good. Anything higher and the AI becomes a problem as they somehow are not aware of the boards as a physical barrier and like slamming into it for fun...

    The only issue I have with those numbers being as high as they are (I'd say 15 for both would be good enough from my personal experience) is that sometimes with the puck pickup animations it'll kind of force you into the boards on races to the puck and it can absolutely derail the whole point of trying to win the race. 90% of the time it's good but it sucks when it happens when you feel like you've taken the proper route.

    On the other hand, would make the dump and chase more realistic though.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Nevermind what I wrote just do what the title says

    The game already plays the same for both sides. The skill of the humans holding the controllers, the overalls of the players on the ice and the strategies you use are what determines the outcome of games.

    If that's the company line you have to spew out, I feel sorry for you. The game does NOT play the same for both teams. So try this that I did...

    I used the goalie, player locked. My ai players skated around like they had no idea what they were doing. The guy vs me, he had no idea what he was doing and was a complete tool with the controller yet EVERY time the puck was in a battle with my AIs, they walked away from it. Another game, playing vs a friend, player locked in a friendly HUT match, we had the EXACT same line up, EXACT same goalies, EXACT same strategies and both player locked as goalie. In this game, my AI were outstanding, winning almost every battle while his skated around like it didn't have a clue. This is so typical in every game.

    This game isn't fun, this game is a mess. Even when I win in the game, I have to fight my players to try to get the puck in the zone because my guys feel the need to get over the blue line before I do. If I do get a good chance in front, my idiotic forwards who are battling for position (lol, no they aren't, they just stand there taking up space) block at least 30% of the shots from the point. The AI in this game is awful and for people to come on here linked with this company saying that it's always the same and blame the user is laughable and no wonder this game hasn't and will never improve.

    While this is a funny thing. Theres no real evidence that proves it besides, your opinion on how they played. The exact same players or i guess team and you guys on goalie lock still doesnt mean the same guys are on the ice for both teams, or in puck battles your same guy is there. Its all situational. On top of that it is coding for the CPU, which has most of them doing the same thing with a couple options like every game.

    This is why most people stop playing VS/HUT and make the switch to 6s or even 3s with no CPUs on the ice. As a 6s player like i know you use to be, i dont know how you can enjoy playing VS/HUT with how dumb CPUs are or how they dont "adjust" to opposing teams tendencies. CPU Gs have allowed roughly the same goals for years, as they should be theyre high scoring chances or areas and you have to defend them but its rattling. Then you have CPU teammates who give awful puck support or line change randomly in the worst times possible (in their o zone, youre cyclying and you throw it back to your dman and he goes to the bench lol like what) Not to mention to fwds not cutting to certain spots or always doing the same 2/3 things. Then on D you have Dmen leaving a back door guy to slide over short side. No on in their right mind would ever just leave the backdoor guy like that, it doesnt make any sense, but its happened forever. Then when the other team is rushing 2 on 2 and you switch to the guy to take the puck and the CPU who has back door is backskating and just stops and the guy throws a cross crease behind him, so instead of you pressuring the puck, the game wants you to take the pass yourself, which is a weird play

    1v1 is a lot of capitalizing on chances and who can exploit the CPU more or whos CPU makes less mistakes, which is why people started to skill zone and just stand on that middle guy, so the middle never really opens up bc that is how most in zone goals are scored.


    In short, just play 3s and 6s, but you have every right to complain about the CPUs as 1v1 is fun and something to do from time to time when youre by yourself. I still dont know if you can say the CPU needs to play the same for both teams. No one plays the same in every game in real life either. As far as goalie locking to prove it thats jsut CPUs playing together, when youre use the guys, you can use your CPUs or the guy you take over to influence or position how the others play in a sense. However, if you dont like it, just dont play it.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!