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Why does a.i. do this?

Replies

  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    jrago73 wrote: »
    It's not intentional
    Its broke for now
    Your only way of dealing with it until it's fixed is to switch earlier.
    What else is he supposed to say?

    He (or, more accurately, one of the devs) is supposed to explain: "Here's why it's happening. Here's why we haven't fixed it yet. Here's how, and when, we do plan to fix it."

    This is not a trivial problem. In my experience, given the nature of this game and the way it's generally played, this single flaw is responsible for a significant percentage of all goals scored in the game.

    I am not sure why the ai D stops to move forward in this case (Could be a number of things that we just need to get a repro case of and there are some weak side defensive pieces we have been looking at around loose pucks and general assignments). In this case we can also wonder why the human player stepped up and flew by the puck carrier. Using that as a sample case, even if we made the ai a recreation of a human brain, some very odd mistakes could be made.

    The ai is meant to stay in the pass lane and is considering the pass, their position to defend a rebound and if they need to worry about the puck carrier as well. Looking at this case we may want to see if pending line changes are impacting something or if the human D over committing and turning a 2 on 2 into a 2 on 1 when already in zone could cause something.

    while all of these may be valid points there's something very wrong with AI defense against odd man rush.

    in a 2 on 2 situation both AI d play it perfectly and it actually takes good team work to get a scoring chance. Against 2 on 1, the AI D is 100% giving up a goal to anyone with a pulse and all it takes is for both attackers to just skate towards their posts and make one cross crease pass behind the lone AI that decided to step up. This happens 100% and it seems the AI is programmed to only worry about one thing, stepping up into the slot...even when there is zero threat there.

    It sure seems broken to me. In a 2 on 2, the backside AI D plays the pass/backside attacker perfectly most the time. while it would be nice to have the AI defender in a 2 on 1 take away the pass while also defending the crease a bit, I would settle for just playing it like the backside defender on a 2 on 2.

    This play and the 1H tuck are basically bugs that ruin the game when playing against AI dmen and goalies.
  • I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    jrago73 wrote: »
    It's not intentional
    Its broke for now
    Your only way of dealing with it until it's fixed is to switch earlier.
    What else is he supposed to say?

    He (or, more accurately, one of the devs) is supposed to explain: "Here's why it's happening. Here's why we haven't fixed it yet. Here's how, and when, we do plan to fix it."

    This is not a trivial problem. In my experience, given the nature of this game and the way it's generally played, this single flaw is responsible for a significant percentage of all goals scored in the game.

    I am not sure why the ai D stops to move forward in this case (Could be a number of things that we just need to get a repro case of and there are some weak side defensive pieces we have been looking at around loose pucks and general assignments). In this case we can also wonder why the human player stepped up and flew by the puck carrier. Using that as a sample case, even if we made the ai a recreation of a human brain, some very odd mistakes could be made.

    The ai is meant to stay in the pass lane and is considering the pass, their position to defend a rebound and if they need to worry about the puck carrier as well. Looking at this case we may want to see if pending line changes are impacting something or if the human D over committing and turning a 2 on 2 into a 2 on 1 when already in zone could cause something.

    Am i reading that right? You're saying it was possibly caused by how i controlled the other d man? If so, yes i made a defensive mistake but that does not excuse the terrible logic on the a.i. in this situation. 2 on 1s happen. Its that d mans job to try and fix that mistake, not take off to section 220a to go find the blonde hes Cleary been watching instead of the game lol.
  • TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Am i reading that right? You're saying it was possibly caused by how i controlled the other d man? If so, yes i made a defensive mistake but that does not excuse the terrible logic on the a.i. in this situation. 2 on 1s happen. Its that d mans job to try and fix that mistake, not take off to section 220a to go find the blonde hes Cleary been watching instead of the game lol.

    No, I am not saying that the ai shouldn't be improved just because you made a mistake. What I am saying is that we attack the ai, when we oursleves make just as many mistakes and we are actual humans, not a recreation. If done right, the ai shouldn't be perfect, they should make decisions based on what they see in front of them and make organic realistic mistakes. In that programming, they can also make some unnatural and weird mistakes -- not because we told them to fly off on a 2 on 1 but because somehow they read the threats wrong and made a bad choice. There are a million reasons they could do this and is part of improving an ai to analyze that and figure out how to fix things with good organic models that work across all situations rather than a black and white rule that works in one.

    So anyways, it was partly a joke that even if we made the perfect recreation of a realistic human brain, it would still make mistakes. Players spend time looking at game tape purely for the purpose of analyzing mistakes they have made and we all do that on behalf of the ai as well. And we constantly try to improve that virtual brain.

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Hehehe.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Goteeeeeeeemmmm!
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Am i reading that right? You're saying it was possibly caused by how i controlled the other d man? If so, yes i made a defensive mistake but that does not excuse the terrible logic on the a.i. in this situation. 2 on 1s happen. Its that d mans job to try and fix that mistake, not take off to section 220a to go find the blonde hes Cleary been watching instead of the game lol.

    No, I am not saying that the ai shouldn't be improved just because you made a mistake. What I am saying is that we attack the ai, when we oursleves make just as many mistakes and we are actual humans, not a recreation. If done right, the ai shouldn't be perfect, they should make decisions based on what they see in front of them and make organic realistic mistakes. In that programming, they can also make some unnatural and weird mistakes -- not because we told them to fly off on a 2 on 1 but because somehow they read the threats wrong and made a bad choice. There are a million reasons they could do this and is part of improving an ai to analyze that and figure out how to fix things with good organic models that work across all situations rather than a black and white rule that works in one.

    So anyways, it was partly a joke that even if we made the perfect recreation of a realistic human brain, it would still make mistakes. Players spend time looking at game tape purely for the purpose of analyzing mistakes they have made and we all do that on behalf of the ai as well. And we constantly try to improve that virtual brain.

    It's not the fault of the human if a lot of people on here and else where are having this same issues ,
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:
  • EA_Aljo
    3020 posts EA Community Manager
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:

    Robin being the support is kind of fitting as there's nothing wrong with some good support in your undergarments :wink:
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:

    Robin being the support is kind of fitting as there's nothing wrong with some good support in your undergarments :wink:


    LoL. That one literally made me chuckle. My fiance now thinks i.m psycho for laughing outta nowhere. You may have just destroyed a future marriage......thanks a lllloooot.

    😉
  • HurricaneFza
    462 posts Member
    edited February 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:

    I usually agree with you, but you've just lost all credibility with this post lol. Batman is nothing without Robin?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? @EA_Aljo, this has to be a ban or a timeout, something!
  • WainGretSki
    3660 posts Member
    edited February 2020
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:

    I usually agree with you, but you've just lost all credibility with this post lol. Batman is nothing without Robin?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? @EA_Aljo, this has to be a ban or a timeout, something!

    Exactly, Batman is nothing without Robin. Before Robin showed up, Batman was nothing more than a moody thug dressed in black while practicing his deep voice to scare homeless bums and purse snatchers which made him feel tough and that he was making a difference in Gotham. Robin put all his pride and expertise aside to work on Batman and to get him into being in an acceptable shape and gave him a few good combat moves. Heck, even Alfred plays a major role in Batman's evolution to the point that Batman would almost have been relevant had Robin never showed up.

    Why do you think Batman had villains like the Catwoman, the Penguin and the Riddler? Simply put, he needed weaker villains until Robin helped him out and made him more effective. He simply was not ready to face real villains at that point in time. So the real hero is Robin and in the shadows, Alfred.

    LOL, dude I'm just messing with ya lmfao.
  • EA_Aljo
    3020 posts EA Community Manager
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:

    Robin being the support is kind of fitting as there's nothing wrong with some good support in your undergarments :wink:


    LoL. That one literally made me chuckle. My fiance now thinks i.m psycho for laughing outta nowhere. You may have just destroyed a future marriage......thanks a lllloooot.

    😉

    Dang. It's probably not easy to find a lady that appreciates her fella gaming in his superhero boxers yelling at the TV. Do they have a category for that on Match? Sorry, bud :(
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:

    Robin being the support is kind of fitting as there's nothing wrong with some good support in your undergarments :wink:


    LoL. That one literally made me chuckle. My fiance now thinks i.m psycho for laughing outta nowhere. You may have just destroyed a future marriage......thanks a lllloooot.

    😉

    Dang. It's probably not easy to find a lady that appreciates her fella gaming in his superhero boxers yelling at the TV. Do they have a category for that on Match? Sorry, bud :(

    LOL!!

    Ok, I vote this is the February post of the month.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    TTZ_Dipsy wrote: »
    I wouldn't say the ai plays perfectly on a 2on2 but it's definitely better than 2on1's, that's for sure.
    Haven't done it because I'm super lazy but I'll try to compile a mini vid of more bone-headed plays they tend to make; I just need to sift through all the footage

    I literally capture video everytime this game does something dumb, and lets just say i have a lot of videos.

    Be careful, the ai may post the videos they have of you too =)

    Lol well that would be embarassing. Wait....does EA have the capability? Thats it...my kinect is going in the garbage. I dont want you watching me rage in my undies playing nhl20. Lol i kid i kid

    LOL, I can just picture you in your Batman undies raging at your NHL opponent :lol:

    Um, is that wrong? LOL

    That im in my batman undies...or that youre picturing it? Hahaha. The scary part is how the heck do u know about my batman boxers? Lmao

    Picturing it seems wrong LOL.

    Dude, who cares about your Batman boxers when I have Robin boxers. Batman was only awesome because of Robin's support LOL! Robin without Batman is Robin. Batman without Robin is nothing more than a rich and bored Bruce Wayne :lol:

    Robin being the support is kind of fitting as there's nothing wrong with some good support in your undergarments :wink:


    LoL. That one literally made me chuckle. My fiance now thinks i.m psycho for laughing outta nowhere. You may have just destroyed a future marriage......thanks a lllloooot.

    😉

    Dang. It's probably not easy to find a lady that appreciates her fella gaming in his superhero boxers yelling at the TV. Do they have a category for that on Match? Sorry, bud :(

    No, but they do on grindr. Lmao jk
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