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  • Sega82mega
    3063 posts Member
    If you have afford to buy this game then I think you have afford with rest of your life to, I cant imagine someone risking houses and loans just to pick up this game.

    And if it never in the past 5 years made you any happy, then its a good idea to put that money on something else.


    what are even the criteria here?
  • Sega82mega
    3063 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    @smyth9779 There are many things in life that are a "privilege". But when you work hard to attain them, you expect to at least get your money's worth, which hasn't been the case with this series for far too long. Maybe to somebody with six figures in their bank account, spending a paltry 60$ on a piece of software they can somewhat enjoy, it may mean nothing.

    But to many of us who work hard all year round and have a limited income to spend on entertainment, spending even 40$ on said software only to be grossly disappointed is a hard loss to justify. Especially when you consider that that money could've been spent on something else that would've brought satisfaction, even for just a moment, rather than the perpetual grief we keep getting put through with the NHL series.

    Every year we hope for better. We're TOLD it's going to be better. And it ends in mostly dissatisfaction.

    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Juppo1996 wrote: »

    The Codies’ F1 series is actually a really good example. I honestly didn’t even think of it when I was thinking about what other sports games are doing. I remember when the F1 series was in that really familiar limbo a few years ago. The game was too arcady to get the hardcore sim crowd interested, it didn’t have the online aspects to be played competitively and career mode wasn’t fleshed out enough to be engaging for a longer period. Then I picture the codies crew having a super super cereal business meating with suits and ties and all, deciding to put their effort on the career mode and it worked. The F1 series can’t compete in the online field with iRacing, they can’t compete with rFactor 2, AC or Project Cars in the hardcore sim aspects so they worked with what they have, the F1 license.

    I think the NHL series should profile themselves the same way and focus on the things that only they can do. NHL can’t compete with the other major sports titles on presentation or career mode/franchise modes but the thing they have that others don’t is the EASHL format and a weirdly dedicated and patient competitive player base. You can’t really do anything like EASHL with madden, fifa or whatever the baseball game is called and at least my experiences with NBA2K online have been absolutely terrible (that could be an EU servers thing though idk). But even with just comparing basketball vs hockey I think hockey is better suited for a mode like EASHL because of bigger emphasis on teamplay.

    That obviously doesn’t mean that the NHL series shouldn’t work on presentation or offline at all but I really think this series should work on it’s strenghts for now and get those aspect to a level that can stand up to scrutiny.

    That means tuning and balancing the game top level pvp in mind to create a proper learning curve, working out the worst physics and skating exploits, fixing the goalie mechanics and building an in-game competitive ladder/division system for clubs and individual players in drop in. Also an AI that can keep up with top players without painfully obvious cheats would be really neat in my not so humble opinion

    Funny thing is, I was an active member of the Codemaster's F1 Forums back in the day. After the adequate 2010-2012 versions, which were, as you said, a bit arcadey, Codies laid the biggest pile on their fans with F1 2013 and 2014 which were just copy-pastes of 2012 with THINGS OMITTED. Obviously people in the community were mad. It got so bad that mods had to ban a lot of people, many of them very prominent members of the F1 community, because discussions would often degenerate into tirades between the users/customers and the people at Codemasters.

    Then something happened. After they released F1 2015, which was BETTER than its predecessor, but still lacking in features, they put a community manager in charge of collecting people's grievances with the game. She would also schedule meetings with the devs so that they could talk to some of the communities top names (namely the people that went to great lengths to create racing leagues based off their game) and she would post monthly lists of things the devs were working on, either to patch the current game and/or what was coming down the pipeline for the NEXT game.

    That all resulted in the AMAZING game that was F1 2016, which gave way to now 4 years in a row of F1 fans getting what they wanted: a game that is faithful to the sport it represents, no matter what skill level you are or preferences you had between casual (arcade) or hardcore (simulation). Is it a 100% simulation of Formula One driving? No. It can never be that. But does it 100% give you the feeling you're an actual F1 Driver, racing a tub of carbon fiber around track at over 300 Km/h against 19 other F1 Drivers? Absolutely. Even actual F1 Drivers praise the game for it's faithfulness to the sport. When you have someone like Former F1 Champion Kimi Raikkonen say that the game is pretty faithful to what an actual F1 car drives like, even going as far as saying that current car's grip levels is more like playing with the Traction control on medium instead of completely off (like E-sport players prefer)... It just validates what lengths Codemasters went to to take their game and elevate it to its current status.

    I wish we could have something like that for NHL as well.

    For that to happen EA need to stop being so defensive about the game and accept critisism as more than personal attacks on devs.

    Because right now they act very immature and stubborn.

    This should be the mantra written on whiteboards all over their offices for motivation and reality check:

    EA NHL is a convoluted and boring mess - a poor representation of the sport of hockey. We accept this. So, now, how do we fix it?

    The community can help. We are not the enemy.

    We accept criticism. Especially when it's constructive. A lot of it is, some of it isn't. There's also a lot of pushback on what we say because some are convinced we're not being honest here. Building a better relationship with the community needs to go both ways. There's a lot of misinformation and assumptions here. Then, if we try to defend those, it's often met with saying we're lying, doing what the suits say, only blaming the players, etc. We want a good, healthy, strong community here, but that's tough to foster with much of the discussion that occurs. I have been involved in this community for a very long time. I've been on both sides of it. It was a very interesting transition going from a fan with assumptions of how the game is made and who makes it to the reality of what actually goes on. The people that make this game are very passionate, dedicated hockey fans that want to faithfully recreate the sport as best they can while working with the community, but rarely does anyone believe that's the case.

    If people are still feeling that EA isn't being honest with them, why do you think that is? It's easy to point the finger and say "well you guys just don't know what's going on inside the company". But EA has had a long history of deceiving and/or misguiding its fans. Not just the NHL fans, but nearly every EA game.

    It's hard for people to put their trust in a company like that. Look what happened to Microsoft when they launched the Xbox One. They completely messed up. And even though they turned it around under "Uncle" Phil Spencer, people still don't quite trust them fully.

    Like I mentioned about Codemasters, they were able to turn things around when they accepted that they were at fault, that they weren't communicating the correct stuff to their fans. That the game was going in THEIR direction and not the one the FANS wanted. They found someone to bridge the middle ground between their dev team and the fans. And then they took it from there to make the game better. Which it did.

    And their fans are mostly happy now. They trust the product Codemasters puts out every year and GLADLY pay them money.

    I would LOVE to be able to do that with an EA product, especially NHL. All us fans want is to help EA make the best NHL game possible. But to us, it seems like EA doesn't want our input. It may not BE that way, but their actions make us feel that way.

    I can tell you that it's not because we're trying to be mean and unjust towards EA. We certainly don't mean to bag on Ben and his team, which try to do the best they can every year. We want to help, but we feel powerless to do so.

    That's what's frustrating us.

    Im pretty sure you not alone of working hard here, try to imagine you on the other side, one of the guys in the dev team, that every year has to hear the same story, even tough he tryed everything in hes power to get things right...

    Do people actually think this guys behind NHL want to disappoint people on purpose, that they gets a kick out of the dissatisfaction of others, come on?

    ... They got a job too, which I think they want to keep.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Im pretty sure you not alone of working hard here, try to imagine you on the other side, one of the guys in the dev team, that every year has to hear the same story, even tough he tryed everything in hes power to get things right...

    Do people actually think this guys behind NHL want to disappoint people on purpose, that they gets a kick out of the dissatisfaction of others, come on?

    ... They got a job too, which I think they want to keep.

    Exactly. Which is why I always praise the job Ben and his team does. They don't have it easy one bit, and I will always praise the job that they do. I don't have a problem with them, but with EA as an entity with an agenda that's (arguably) not the same as the people working for them.

    I'm sure Ben and most of his team are very passionate about hockey as a sport and try their best to bring it to us in video game format. Can you say the same for EA as a company? Do you think they view the sport, any sport with as much passion, as the devs that make them or do you think they see only a bottom line?

    That's what many of us find upsetting.

    If I go to the grocery store and spend 5$ on Mangoes, only to find out the next day that they are rotten. I'm going to be upset. Will I die because I lost 5$ on Mangoes I can't eat? Will I not be able to make the rent or starve? No... But I won't trust that store again and I'll have to go out of my way to find another store where I can buy Mangoes.

    Except if we were to make things similar to EA's NHL, it would be like that store being the only store in the world that sells mangoes. So if I want mangoes, I can take a chance and hope I can buy not rotten ones from them or I can just... I guess learn to NOT like mangoes.

    Eh... I don't even know if that makes sense. But Ben likes my analogies, he should get a kick out of that one! ;)


  • Davanial
    267 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    I've fired plenty of people who were nice guys, who didn't want to do poorly at work, and who wanted to keep their job... because they weren't very good at it. Not many people on these forums are calling to axe the developers and programmers at EA. We want to see improvement to a game we're invested in. It'd be nice if those improvements were more regular than once per title. It'd be great if those improvements were actual improvements as well, and not band aid fixes to poor mechanics that only serve to create more problems.
  • Personally, I think this game is really really good, HUT? Not so much. Room for improvement in all areas....however I dont play ALL of the modes on a regular basis so I cant exactly comment in them. But HUT and online versus def could use some improvements. HUT more than anything. I cant stress enough how annoying it is to see 99 overall cards all over the place. Drives me bananas. But that's just me. Get rid of 99's. And slow the game down a little in HUT. And make players get tired faster and more noticeable.
    Thanks.
  • Sega82mega
    3063 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Im pretty sure you not alone of working hard here, try to imagine you on the other side, one of the guys in the dev team, that every year has to hear the same story, even tough he tryed everything in hes power to get things right...

    Do people actually think this guys behind NHL want to disappoint people on purpose, that they gets a kick out of the dissatisfaction of others, come on?

    ... They got a job too, which I think they want to keep.

    Exactly. Which is why I always praise the job Ben and his team does. They don't have it easy one bit, and I will always praise the job that they do. I don't have a problem with them, but with EA as an entity with an agenda that's (arguably) not the same as the people working for them.

    I'm sure Ben and most of his team are very passionate about hockey as a sport and try their best to bring it to us in video game format. Can you say the same for EA as a company? Do you think they view the sport, any sport with as much passion, as the devs that make them or do you think they see only a bottom line?

    That's what many of us find upsetting.

    If I go to the grocery store and spend 5$ on Mangoes, only to find out the next day that they are rotten. I'm going to be upset. Will I die because I lost 5$ on Mangoes I can't eat? Will I not be able to make the rent or starve? No... But I won't trust that store again and I'll have to go out of my way to find another store where I can buy Mangoes.

    Except if we were to make things similar to EA's NHL, it would be like that store being the only store in the world that sells mangoes. So if I want mangoes, I can take a chance and hope I can buy not rotten ones from them or I can just... I guess learn to NOT like mangoes.

    Eh... I don't even know if that makes sense. But Ben likes my analogies, he should get a kick out of that one! ;)


    Dont judge the whole store becuse one rotten mango, they exist.

    Behind EA its just ordinarie people, like you, like me, like Ben. Its not like "EA" is a higher being, its ther becuse it runs of successful people. But EA itself, is a giant, that mean people will take any chance they get to criticize, some entitled others dont. But I choose to see the crew behind the NHL as a little family business apart from EA and I will continue to support them, even tough im not always happy how the game plays out.

    ... And you can always choose to take a year off with mango, maybe try a banana.. And then come back. ;)
  • Sega82mega
    3063 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    Davanial wrote: »
    I've fired plenty of people who were nice guys, who didn't want to do poorly at work, and who wanted to keep their job... because they weren't very good at it. Not many people on these forums are calling to axe the developers and programmers at EA. We want to see improvement to a game we're invested in. It'd be nice if those improvements were more regular than once per title. It'd be great if those improvements were actual improvements as well, and not band aid fixes to poor mechanics that only serve to create more problems.

    You speak for all?

    (cause I have seen improvments year by year. But I guess we look at the game with diffrent perspective)
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Davanial wrote: »
    I've fired plenty of people who were nice guys, who didn't want to do poorly at work, and who wanted to keep their job... because they weren't very good at it. Not many people on these forums are calling to axe the developers and programmers at EA. We want to see improvement to a game we're invested in. It'd be nice if those improvements were more regular than once per title. It'd be great if those improvements were actual improvements as well, and not band aid fixes to poor mechanics that only serve to create more problems.

    You speak for all?

    (cause I have seen improvments year by year. But I guess we look at the game with diffrent perspective)

    Yes. Yes, I speak for all. Didn't you get the memo there, Kneepads?
  • smyth9779 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    bryta47 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Juppo1996 wrote: »

    The Codies’ F1 series is actually a really good example. I honestly didn’t even think of it when I was thinking about what other sports games are doing. I remember when the F1 series was in that really familiar limbo a few years ago. The game was too arcady to get the hardcore sim crowd interested, it didn’t have the online aspects to be played competitively and career mode wasn’t fleshed out enough to be engaging for a longer period. Then I picture the codies crew having a super super cereal business meating with suits and ties and all, deciding to put their effort on the career mode and it worked. The F1 series can’t compete in the online field with iRacing, they can’t compete with rFactor 2, AC or Project Cars in the hardcore sim aspects so they worked with what they have, the F1 license.

    I think the NHL series should profile themselves the same way and focus on the things that only they can do. NHL can’t compete with the other major sports titles on presentation or career mode/franchise modes but the thing they have that others don’t is the EASHL format and a weirdly dedicated and patient competitive player base. You can’t really do anything like EASHL with madden, fifa or whatever the baseball game is called and at least my experiences with NBA2K online have been absolutely terrible (that could be an EU servers thing though idk). But even with just comparing basketball vs hockey I think hockey is better suited for a mode like EASHL because of bigger emphasis on teamplay.

    That obviously doesn’t mean that the NHL series shouldn’t work on presentation or offline at all but I really think this series should work on it’s strenghts for now and get those aspect to a level that can stand up to scrutiny.

    That means tuning and balancing the game top level pvp in mind to create a proper learning curve, working out the worst physics and skating exploits, fixing the goalie mechanics and building an in-game competitive ladder/division system for clubs and individual players in drop in. Also an AI that can keep up with top players without painfully obvious cheats would be really neat in my not so humble opinion

    Funny thing is, I was an active member of the Codemaster's F1 Forums back in the day. After the adequate 2010-2012 versions, which were, as you said, a bit arcadey, Codies laid the biggest pile on their fans with F1 2013 and 2014 which were just copy-pastes of 2012 with THINGS OMITTED. Obviously people in the community were mad. It got so bad that mods had to ban a lot of people, many of them very prominent members of the F1 community, because discussions would often degenerate into tirades between the users/customers and the people at Codemasters.

    Then something happened. After they released F1 2015, which was BETTER than its predecessor, but still lacking in features, they put a community manager in charge of collecting people's grievances with the game. She would also schedule meetings with the devs so that they could talk to some of the communities top names (namely the people that went to great lengths to create racing leagues based off their game) and she would post monthly lists of things the devs were working on, either to patch the current game and/or what was coming down the pipeline for the NEXT game.

    That all resulted in the AMAZING game that was F1 2016, which gave way to now 4 years in a row of F1 fans getting what they wanted: a game that is faithful to the sport it represents, no matter what skill level you are or preferences you had between casual (arcade) or hardcore (simulation). Is it a 100% simulation of Formula One driving? No. It can never be that. But does it 100% give you the feeling you're an actual F1 Driver, racing a tub of carbon fiber around track at over 300 Km/h against 19 other F1 Drivers? Absolutely. Even actual F1 Drivers praise the game for it's faithfulness to the sport. When you have someone like Former F1 Champion Kimi Raikkonen say that the game is pretty faithful to what an actual F1 car drives like, even going as far as saying that current car's grip levels is more like playing with the Traction control on medium instead of completely off (like E-sport players prefer)... It just validates what lengths Codemasters went to to take their game and elevate it to its current status.

    I wish we could have something like that for NHL as well.

    For that to happen EA need to stop being so defensive about the game and accept critisism as more than personal attacks on devs.

    Because right now they act very immature and stubborn.

    This should be the mantra written on whiteboards all over their offices for motivation and reality check:

    EA NHL is a convoluted and boring mess - a poor representation of the sport of hockey. We accept this. So, now, how do we fix it?

    The community can help. We are not the enemy.

    We accept criticism. Especially when it's constructive. A lot of it is, some of it isn't. There's also a lot of pushback on what we say because some are convinced we're not being honest here. Building a better relationship with the community needs to go both ways. There's a lot of misinformation and assumptions here. Then, if we try to defend those, it's often met with saying we're lying, doing what the suits say, only blaming the players, etc. We want a good, healthy, strong community here, but that's tough to foster with much of the discussion that occurs. I have been involved in this community for a very long time. I've been on both sides of it. It was a very interesting transition going from a fan with assumptions of how the game is made and who makes it to the reality of what actually goes on. The people that make this game are very passionate, dedicated hockey fans that want to faithfully recreate the sport as best they can while working with the community, but rarely does anyone believe that's the case.

    I would have to say most of the complaints are absolutely absurd. I can understand the amount of frustration you guys must feel reading some of this stuff. Myself included I've complained many times that the game is rigged. Hahaha. But I know it's not, and I know everything cant be perfect with all the stuff that goes on creating the game and online servers and this guys internet is weak, that guys internet is too strong. Blah blah blah.
    Truth is, everyone is spoiled rotten, and wants everything to be perfect and wont accept anything less. It's what our society has become. Spoiled. I might be criticized for saying that but I believe it's the truth., we are all 4 year olds crying because we couldnt get a candy bar at the store.
    And if you really want to get deep, being able to play a video game is a privelage most take for granted. Think about the less fortunate who cant afford a playstation or x box or food...and we complain because we cant upgrade a team to 99 overall....
    I'm done. Thanks

    No. That’s not what WE complain about. Speak for yourself.
  • EA_Aljo wrote: »
    Juppo1996 wrote: »
    Tbh @smyth9779 I think critizising a video game has nothing to do with being spoiled or privilaged. When you sell a game with a 70€ price tag annually the expectation from the customer is and should be to get a high quality video game. If I spend 70€ on a video game which isn’t a small amount for my poor student ❤️❤️❤️❤️ I’ll expect to get my moneys worth of content. If I feel like the game isn’t worth the price tag then comparisons will be made to other things I could’ve spent 70€ on.

    Being spoiled would mean to expect more than what you paid for or something that’s not realistic.

    A lot of people have a different idea of what value means to them. One thing for me that always made the game worth the cost was that I played it so much. It became extremely cheap entertainment over the course of a year. However, if I didn't like the game and didn't play it because of that, it wouldn't hold my perception of value. Some feel the game is high quality, some feel it isn't. Of course, we want as many people as possible to see the value, but it can come down to personal preference in the end. Regardless, we're always trying to make as many people happy as we can.

    Everywhere you look your user ratings (the ones that actually matter) are less than 5 out of 10. If you look at the user score ratings for the NHL games on last gen they typically hover around 8 to 8.5 out of 10. Why you guys have always chosen not to address this FACT is beyond me.
  • just2sweeeeeeet
    120 posts Member
    edited June 2020
    When I think about this game - it’s easier to score 10 goals than it is to get a shut out.

    Who agrees/disagrees?

    Nerf acceleration and buff poke check (as in making it cause less tripping calls, aka if you’re right in front of him it’s 98% never a penalty and right besides him neck and neck ) and I think we’d have a far more balanced game.

    Totally agree. I’d take it one step further and remove whatever causes poke checks to go right back to the defender that GOT POKED. Or to his oncoming teammate. There are so many instances where even a clean poke check creates a negative outcome for the defensive player and a scoring chance for the offensive player who GOT POKED.

    Remember EA, GETTING POKED is bad. Don’t make doing a bad thing turn into a positive outcome. Stop it. It’s been long enough now.
  • bryta47
    373 posts Member
    It doesn't matter if the dev team are nice guys or if they're passionate about their jobs. And I certainly don't care about their feelings or personal lives.

    All I care about is the end product.

  • When I think about this game - it’s easier to score 10 goals than it is to get a shut out.

    Who agrees/disagrees?

    Nerf acceleration and buff poke check (as in making it cause less tripping calls, aka if you’re right in front of him it’s 98% never a penalty and right besides him neck and neck ) and I think we’d have a far more balanced game.

    Totally agree. I’d take it one step further and remove whatever causes poke checks to go right back to the defender that GOT POKED. Or to his oncoming teammate. There are so many instances where even a clean poke check creates a negative outcome for the defensive player and a scoring chance for the offensive player who GOT POKED.

    Remember EA, GETTING POKED is bad. Don’t make doing a bad thing turn into a positive outcome. Stop it. It’s been long enough now.

    The worst is when they are coming dead on towards holding out their rs, just too close to poke check - so you basically stand there like a pylon and he snipes the computer goalie. I should be able to come at him.
  • IceLion68
    1174 posts Member
    I think right now game play is the least of concerns. Sure the game could be more fun and engaging but I think the biggest thing EA needs to fix is BE A PRO.

    Yes, don't address the game play issues that affect *every*game type - just fix one... makes sense
    /sarcasm
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1174 posts Member
    bryta47 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    And the solution to these problems is...? Just do it better and do it now?

    1. Don't make the game an annual release
    2. Get a new dev team

    That's a start atleast.
    Agree with 1 but not with 2. Changing the dev team will probably set them back a good amount. What they need is MORE resources I think, not new resources.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1174 posts Member
    I probably won't be buying next year's game ,my opinion it'll probably be the same if not worse and if they add that lacrosse goal no way , it'll just be another exploit the the elite will abuse

    Oh dear god not not the lacrosse goal ugh - I hadn't even thought of that. Unless they are going to fix defense (again)
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1174 posts Member
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    As a defender, almost nothing is more frustrating than constantly watching your forwards force the same couple of plays over and over again with the entire defense collapsing and your D are wide open at the points. .

    I feel this soooo hard
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1174 posts Member
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's not that these requests fall on deaf ears at all. The dev team is well aware of the requests for a practice mode, but it hasn't been included yet as feedback from the community in other areas was requested more. There's only so much time to develop the game each year so they have to be careful about what gets worked on and what needs to be saved for the future. Nobody is purposely being ignored.

    Am I losing it because I thought this *did* exist? Around 2014?
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1174 posts Member
    I wish pokes wouldn’t trip when I’m in front of my opponent or on his strong side skating besides him.
    Or a stick lift hitting him in the face instead of lifting his stick when he is right in front of you and you are skating backwards

    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • EA_Aljo
    2632 posts EA Community Manager
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    EA_Aljo wrote: »
    It's not that these requests fall on deaf ears at all. The dev team is well aware of the requests for a practice mode, but it hasn't been included yet as feedback from the community in other areas was requested more. There's only so much time to develop the game each year so they have to be careful about what gets worked on and what needs to be saved for the future. Nobody is purposely being ignored.

    Am I losing it because I thought this *did* exist? Around 2014?

    Yes. This existed in the previous generation but hasn't returned as there have been other areas of the game that needed to be prioritized.
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