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The penalty baiting needs to stop..

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Replies

  • HoodHoppers
    1420 posts Member
    Davanial wrote: »
    You're assuming the defender makes good contact on the player LTing to spin off/around them. I've had solid contact defending those plays that result in realistic checks, knock downs, turnovers etc. And I've also encountered the bubble, and partial bumps etc. I don't view my every failed attempt to defend LT physically as 'mechanic abuse' by the other player.

    All of the other crap was merely poking fun at some of the silly ways this game simulates hockey, and LT would be included in there. My point is, it's just a game. I guess I don't expect the virtual experience to be as realistically accurate as some people do. Nor do I fail to see the possible applications of many of the game mechanics that those people feel are so unrealistic. You can easily find examples of NHL plays where the attacker ssentially LTs to protect the puck or create space. It is simply not as far fetched as people make it out to be.

    But yes, I agree that a poorly timed spin into a defender who reacts with a solid hit is going to drop the guy. This also does happen in the video game.

    I don't really disagree with much of what you (in particular) have said, but I find the dramatic hyperbole of others amusing. I can flap my arms about the weak tripping calls, as example, or I can try to get better at playing the game as it is, while offering feedback that I hope helps the developers et all to improve the game.

    Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?


    There's one clip in there with contact and that's the one with Subban. Also notice Subban was basically at a dead halt when he did his "spin-o-rama" and it was more like a reverse hit than it was a spin-o-rama at full tilt. Had he had forward momentum he would have been put to the ice.
  • jmwalsh8888
    1094 posts Member
    Davanial wrote: »
    You're assuming the defender makes good contact on the player LTing to spin off/around them. I've had solid contact defending those plays that result in realistic checks, knock downs, turnovers etc. And I've also encountered the bubble, and partial bumps etc. I don't view my every failed attempt to defend LT physically as 'mechanic abuse' by the other player.

    All of the other crap was merely poking fun at some of the silly ways this game simulates hockey, and LT would be included in there. My point is, it's just a game. I guess I don't expect the virtual experience to be as realistically accurate as some people do. Nor do I fail to see the possible applications of many of the game mechanics that those people feel are so unrealistic. You can easily find examples of NHL plays where the attacker ssentially LTs to protect the puck or create space. It is simply not as far fetched as people make it out to be.

    But yes, I agree that a poorly timed spin into a defender who reacts with a solid hit is going to drop the guy. This also does happen in the video game.

    I don't really disagree with much of what you (in particular) have said, but I find the dramatic hyperbole of others amusing. I can flap my arms about the weak tripping calls, as example, or I can try to get better at playing the game as it is, while offering feedback that I hope helps the developers et all to improve the game.

    Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?


    There's one clip in there with contact and that's the one with Subban. Also notice Subban was basically at a dead halt when he did his "spin-o-rama" and it was more like a reverse hit than it was a spin-o-rama at full tilt. Had he had forward momentum he would have been put to the ice.

    I've been saying it for a while now but many whiners dont want to listen. LT spin controls are not perfect but they are definitely part of the real game of hockey now. This is NHL 2020, not beer league 2020. AAA 12 year olds do this, in game situations just like in this video. Look at that video and watch 3 young Red Wing stars all do something we can do in game with LT. The best of which is the goal by someone most considered a grinder. This is just becoming part of the arsenal of young players that grew up watching Crosby.

    The problem isn't really the LT spinning, its the defensive tools. Good hockey players dont do this that often in real life for a reason. you have to have time, space and a defender that is in exactly the right (or depending on perspective wrong) position. EA NHLers that do it in the wrong scenario should get lit up. And often they do. but the real problem is not a lack of ability to "knock them off the puck". Its the difficulty of which to stick check from in close especially when someone does this.

    To me this is another case of a fairly successful implementation of a tool real NHL stars use (although could still use some tweaking). And most people's answers is to nerf it because they still fail to balance it with defensive improvements. I find against good defensive players any L2ing in tight traffic is very rare but it still happens by really good players that have mastered it. Better defensive tools would make it more even.

    thats my 2 cents
  • GramerProfesur
    537 posts Member
    edited May 8
    Davanial wrote: »
    You're assuming the defender makes good contact on the player LTing to spin off/around them. I've had solid contact defending those plays that result in realistic checks, knock downs, turnovers etc. And I've also encountered the bubble, and partial bumps etc. I don't view my every failed attempt to defend LT physically as 'mechanic abuse' by the other player.

    All of the other crap was merely poking fun at some of the silly ways this game simulates hockey, and LT would be included in there. My point is, it's just a game. I guess I don't expect the virtual experience to be as realistically accurate as some people do. Nor do I fail to see the possible applications of many of the game mechanics that those people feel are so unrealistic. You can easily find examples of NHL plays where the attacker ssentially LTs to protect the puck or create space. It is simply not as far fetched as people make it out to be.

    But yes, I agree that a poorly timed spin into a defender who reacts with a solid hit is going to drop the guy. This also does happen in the video game.

    I don't really disagree with much of what you (in particular) have said, but I find the dramatic hyperbole of others amusing. I can flap my arms about the weak tripping calls, as example, or I can try to get better at playing the game as it is, while offering feedback that I hope helps the developers et all to improve the game.

    Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?


    There's one clip in there with contact and that's the one with Subban. Also notice Subban was basically at a dead halt when he did his "spin-o-rama" and it was more like a reverse hit than it was a spin-o-rama at full tilt. Had he had forward momentum he would have been put to the ice.

    I've been saying it for a while now but many whiners dont want to listen. LT spin controls are not perfect but they are definitely part of the real game of hockey now. This is NHL 2020, not beer league 2020. AAA 12 year olds do this, in game situations just like in this video. Look at that video and watch 3 young Red Wing stars all do something we can do in game with LT. The best of which is the goal by someone most considered a grinder. This is just becoming part of the arsenal of young players that grew up watching Crosby.

    The problem isn't really the LT spinning, its the defensive tools. Good hockey players dont do this that often in real life for a reason. you have to have time, space and a defender that is in exactly the right (or depending on perspective wrong) position. EA NHLers that do it in the wrong scenario should get lit up. And often they do. but the real problem is not a lack of ability to "knock them off the puck". Its the difficulty of which to stick check from in close especially when someone does this.

    To me this is another case of a fairly successful implementation of a tool real NHL stars use (although could still use some tweaking). And most people's answers is to nerf it because they still fail to balance it with defensive improvements. I find against good defensive players any L2ing in tight traffic is very rare but it still happens by really good players that have mastered it. Better defensive tools would make it more even.

    thats my 2 cents


    The spinning around in this video not at full speed and any contact is likely going to knock the player off balance (except maybe on a big player like Dylan Strome). The problem with LT in NHL 20 is players can do it at full speed and trying to hit them does nothing, you'll just roll off no matter how big you are and how strong your player is. If you somehow manage to knock them off balance they don't fall to the ice, it's a half stumble and they'll regain the puck or get it to an opponent.

    The only way shoving someone off the puck works in NHL 20 is if you're bigger than them, they are very small (5'8 and under) and have poor puck control stats. Otherwise they can LT or puck control their way to the net, knocking them to the ice is way too difficult. Edgework like Sidney Crosby is extremely rare and even he stumbles when hit while pivoting or turning at a high speed, in real life . In this game, it doesn't seem to lower your balance when you try to do the same. Each players overall is like 85 max in EASHL. How is there no stark difference between a 94 OVR Crosby and 85 EASHL player in terms of balance when pivoting? Players know you have to go full speed to knock them down. This risks
    a charging penalty or them pivoting slightly and taking you out of the play.

    Even the smallest and weakest dmen in the league can bump a player off balance if they're spinning or pivoting at full speed, regardless of their size. Look at the best skaters who can gain a ton of speed by pivoting and turning (like McDavid) and how many times he gets knocked down if someone makes contact. He is able to get to the net because he is so fast and avoids the check, if he gets hit he will fall.
  • HoodHoppers
    1420 posts Member
    Davanial wrote: »
    You're assuming the defender makes good contact on the player LTing to spin off/around them. I've had solid contact defending those plays that result in realistic checks, knock downs, turnovers etc. And I've also encountered the bubble, and partial bumps etc. I don't view my every failed attempt to defend LT physically as 'mechanic abuse' by the other player.

    All of the other crap was merely poking fun at some of the silly ways this game simulates hockey, and LT would be included in there. My point is, it's just a game. I guess I don't expect the virtual experience to be as realistically accurate as some people do. Nor do I fail to see the possible applications of many of the game mechanics that those people feel are so unrealistic. You can easily find examples of NHL plays where the attacker ssentially LTs to protect the puck or create space. It is simply not as far fetched as people make it out to be.

    But yes, I agree that a poorly timed spin into a defender who reacts with a solid hit is going to drop the guy. This also does happen in the video game.

    I don't really disagree with much of what you (in particular) have said, but I find the dramatic hyperbole of others amusing. I can flap my arms about the weak tripping calls, as example, or I can try to get better at playing the game as it is, while offering feedback that I hope helps the developers et all to improve the game.

    Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?


    There's one clip in there with contact and that's the one with Subban. Also notice Subban was basically at a dead halt when he did his "spin-o-rama" and it was more like a reverse hit than it was a spin-o-rama at full tilt. Had he had forward momentum he would have been put to the ice.

    I've been saying it for a while now but many whiners dont want to listen. LT spin controls are not perfect but they are definitely part of the real game of hockey now. This is NHL 2020, not beer league 2020. AAA 12 year olds do this, in game situations just like in this video. Look at that video and watch 3 young Red Wing stars all do something we can do in game with LT. The best of which is the goal by someone most considered a grinder. This is just becoming part of the arsenal of young players that grew up watching Crosby.

    The problem isn't really the LT spinning, its the defensive tools. Good hockey players dont do this that often in real life for a reason. you have to have time, space and a defender that is in exactly the right (or depending on perspective wrong) position. EA NHLers that do it in the wrong scenario should get lit up. And often they do. but the real problem is not a lack of ability to "knock them off the puck". Its the difficulty of which to stick check from in close especially when someone does this.

    To me this is another case of a fairly successful implementation of a tool real NHL stars use (although could still use some tweaking). And most people's answers is to nerf it because they still fail to balance it with defensive improvements. I find against good defensive players any L2ing in tight traffic is very rare but it still happens by really good players that have mastered it. Better defensive tools would make it more even.

    thats my 2 cents

    I agree with this to an extent. I said it back in like 2014 when speaking to a dev, that there should be a jostle/compete/tie-up button to mitigate offense in close. It basically just stifles them. Hold it too long and you'll get a holding or a hooking penalty, but if you time it right then you basically shove the guy off the puck or rub him out along the boards or poke the puck a short distance away and depending on how good your defensive stats are is how effective it is.
  • jmwalsh8888
    1094 posts Member
    Davanial wrote: »
    You're assuming the defender makes good contact on the player LTing to spin off/around them. I've had solid contact defending those plays that result in realistic checks, knock downs, turnovers etc. And I've also encountered the bubble, and partial bumps etc. I don't view my every failed attempt to defend LT physically as 'mechanic abuse' by the other player.

    All of the other crap was merely poking fun at some of the silly ways this game simulates hockey, and LT would be included in there. My point is, it's just a game. I guess I don't expect the virtual experience to be as realistically accurate as some people do. Nor do I fail to see the possible applications of many of the game mechanics that those people feel are so unrealistic. You can easily find examples of NHL plays where the attacker ssentially LTs to protect the puck or create space. It is simply not as far fetched as people make it out to be.

    But yes, I agree that a poorly timed spin into a defender who reacts with a solid hit is going to drop the guy. This also does happen in the video game.

    I don't really disagree with much of what you (in particular) have said, but I find the dramatic hyperbole of others amusing. I can flap my arms about the weak tripping calls, as example, or I can try to get better at playing the game as it is, while offering feedback that I hope helps the developers et all to improve the game.

    Can you describe what you mean by spread eagle..? I've played a bit higher than beer league, but anything I would describe as spread eagle wouldn't be a good thing, especially in the groin area. Just not certain I get what you mean. Like, a wider base..?


    There's one clip in there with contact and that's the one with Subban. Also notice Subban was basically at a dead halt when he did his "spin-o-rama" and it was more like a reverse hit than it was a spin-o-rama at full tilt. Had he had forward momentum he would have been put to the ice.

    I've been saying it for a while now but many whiners dont want to listen. LT spin controls are not perfect but they are definitely part of the real game of hockey now. This is NHL 2020, not beer league 2020. AAA 12 year olds do this, in game situations just like in this video. Look at that video and watch 3 young Red Wing stars all do something we can do in game with LT. The best of which is the goal by someone most considered a grinder. This is just becoming part of the arsenal of young players that grew up watching Crosby.

    The problem isn't really the LT spinning, its the defensive tools. Good hockey players dont do this that often in real life for a reason. you have to have time, space and a defender that is in exactly the right (or depending on perspective wrong) position. EA NHLers that do it in the wrong scenario should get lit up. And often they do. but the real problem is not a lack of ability to "knock them off the puck". Its the difficulty of which to stick check from in close especially when someone does this.

    To me this is another case of a fairly successful implementation of a tool real NHL stars use (although could still use some tweaking). And most people's answers is to nerf it because they still fail to balance it with defensive improvements. I find against good defensive players any L2ing in tight traffic is very rare but it still happens by really good players that have mastered it. Better defensive tools would make it more even.

    thats my 2 cents


    The spinning around in this video not at full speed and any contact is likely going to knock the player off balance (except maybe on a big player like Dylan Strome). The problem with LT in NHL 20 is players can do it at full speed and trying to hit them does nothing, you'll just roll off no matter how big you are and how strong your player is. If you somehow manage to knock them off balance they don't fall to the ice, it's a half stumble and they'll regain the puck or get it to an opponent.

    The only way shoving someone off the puck works in NHL 20 is if you're bigger than them, they are very small (5'8 and under) and have poor puck control stats. Otherwise they can LT or puck control their way to the net, knocking them to the ice is way too difficult. Edgework like Sidney Crosby is extremely rare and even he stumbles when hit while pivoting or turning at a high speed, in real life . In this game, it doesn't seem to lower your balance when you try to do the same. Each players overall is like 85 max in EASHL. How is there no stark difference between a 94 OVR Crosby and 85 EASHL player in terms of balance when pivoting? Players know you have to go full speed to knock them down. This risks
    a charging penalty or them pivoting slightly and taking you out of the play.

    Even the smallest and weakest dmen in the league can bump a player off balance if they're spinning or pivoting at full speed, regardless of their size. Look at the best skaters who can gain a ton of speed by pivoting and turning (like McDavid) and how many times he gets knocked down if someone makes contact. He is able to get to the net because he is so fast and avoids the check, if he gets hit he will fall.

    I agree some tweaking could be done. BUt when done right hitting is very effective against these pivots. Problem is the hitting in this game is outrageously wonky so its very sporadic. Most the videos I see of people saying why didn't they go down there truthfully appears to be almost no contact. If someone has video of a user that is in mid pivot and getting cleanly hit and not going down I'd love to see it.

    One of the main reasons LTing is so effective is exactly because people are spamming the hit stick over aggressively.

    its no where near perfect but if defended properly and given the proper defensive tools it should be easy to stop other than situations where real pros would use it. A 2 on 2 rush where the defenders are going to be ready for the rush and in position with gap control you should be able to stop the one man show from pivoting his way to the net without any hitting. thats VERY difficult right now. there are techniques but they aren't as effective as they should be and they definitely are lacking compared to real life.
  • Davanial
    200 posts Member
    Y'know, if we're all after the most realistic hockey simulation possible, they'd best force us to play in first person perspective. How effective would LT be then?
  • NHLDev
    1669 posts EA NHL Developer
    Davanial wrote: »
    Y'know, if we're all after the most realistic hockey simulation possible, they'd best force us to play in first person perspective. How effective would LT be then?
    First person perspective itself doesn't really translate to a sports game due to how often your actions are separated from where you may look. However, we have thought about that a bit and I actually had a prototype made that impacted your 'vision' from any camera angle you played on relative to what your player could 'see'. It is definitely one of the big differences when separating what you can physically do on skates vs why or when you would do something on top of the other pieces around balance, puck control, etc..
  • jmwalsh8888
    1094 posts Member
    Davanial wrote: »
    Y'know, if we're all after the most realistic hockey simulation possible, they'd best force us to play in first person perspective. How effective would LT be then?

    video game 1st person perspective is anything like the real human experience. it just isn't. that would be a terrible idea.
  • EpiCxOwNeD
    629 posts Member
    The penalty baiting in EASHL 3s can be beyond ridiculous. I mean check out this highly skilled penalty shot. Goal of the year.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/EA_NHL/comments/gdxon8/wow_this_man_has_crazy_skill/
  • Davanial
    200 posts Member
    Davanial wrote: »
    Y'know, if we're all after the most realistic hockey simulation possible, they'd best force us to play in first person perspective. How effective would LT be then?

    video game 1st person perspective is anything like the real human experience. it just isn't. that would be a terrible idea.

    Totally. Still, as NHLDev said, the limitations on what we could do would be vast. Specifically pertaining to this debate, and many other aspects of the game that are oft complained about.

    Kinda weird that developers (of any game genre) haven't figured out a decent fpp given how many games do use it. Realistic peripheral view control, stuff like that. We'd need more buttons. And fingers...
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