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Transitional skating is broken for NHL 21

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  • Stovetop9620
    372 posts Member
    edited September 24
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    I was asking in another thread:

    would like to hear how people define skillzoning?

    I think this concept is lead by a big misunderstanding.

    I was playing a guy that refused to make a move anywhere near my net, I keept my controlled player in steady motion in the center around my goalie, to cut him off and to keep him on the outside, and all he was waiting for was for me to give up position so he could go short side or 1timer.
    Why should I switch to my AI player and do the same chasin my AI can do, when I can do a much better job if I stay in line and cut him off..?

    After the game a got a message that I was skillzoning, when all I did was playing D without getting fooled.

    So if thats skillzoning you might just as well give up the concept of getting a smarter AI, cause thats whats very many looking for, to exploit AI and go for a cheese. And if they dont, they blame you for skillzoning....

    *And sorry for off-topic Majjam, it's so easy to get carried away, but its about the game, at least... 😏

    Well, let me tell you what is NOT skill-zoning:
    Skill zoning is when you just control one guy usually the center and just sit in the middle and hardly switch players



    What our friend is describing above is more like "babysitting the AI" which likes to run around chasing the puck carrier without any regard for the human player's position. When that happens your best bet is to just observe and switch when the AI generated chaos will permit. In fact, many "top players" will use this tactic like Top Shelf Cookie, Nuke and Pens91. Go try telling them they're skill zoning. LOL!


    But I honestly don't see any other good options to defend myself against players that dont want to play hockey. Instead they turn themselves inside out in the corners. Im not going to play cat and mouse.

    That is why you are forced to be passive. If you engage the chances of you getting beat on some Tom Foolery is pretty high. You are forced to stick with your man but keep him at arms length. With poke being so dangerous and trying to check with someone's stick extended outward being a liability, you have to constantly play contain. This is one of the reasons for the monotony of the game. Forwards can play nothing but perimeter hockey and just wait for 5 minutes until you get bored and attack for them to loop, short side snipe. Everything I know about the game says perimeter hockey = you are going to lose.

    I have said it countless times, it is incumbent upon the offense to EARN scoring chances, not to wait guys out for the 80% shots. Look at the video @TheMajjam posted yesterday. He got scored on through 3 guys in the slot. The play should have been dead. Instead, the offense was, as is tradition, gifted something they did not deserve. I mean, realistically, there is no shot or player who can score on the same shot with such regularity. Ovechkin, aka the best goal scorer in modern times (this is coming from a Pens fan too lol), takes so many shots from the LW circle on the PP and his best shooting percentage ever was 15.4%. We have read it so many times "We are trying to get realistic stats on 4 minute periods." That is fine. However, anything above 25-30% success should immediately be investigated.

    They talk about adding realism but yet you can lose a game 3-2 outshooting your opponent 34-7...umm, what?

    "November 4, 1998 – Mike Vernon made 21 saves to record his 19th career shutout in the Sharks 4-0 win against the visiting Dallas Stars. Shutouts are neat, but that’s not the interesting part – the Sharks recorded nine shots on goal. In the entire game. They had nine shots on net, and scored four goals. They had nine shots and won the game. It was the fewest SOG by a winning team since people actually starting tracking the stat in 1955. And they won by four goals. Wow."

    "The Leafs beat the Blues 4-0 in 1999 after recording only 9 shots on goal."

    Only twice, since 1955 has this ever happened.
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    I was asking in another thread:

    would like to hear how people define skillzoning?

    I think this concept is lead by a big misunderstanding.

    I was playing a guy that refused to make a move anywhere near my net, I keept my controlled player in steady motion in the center around my goalie, to cut him off and to keep him on the outside, and all he was waiting for was for me to give up position so he could go short side or 1timer.
    Why should I switch to my AI player and do the same chasin my AI can do, when I can do a much better job if I stay in line and cut him off..?

    After the game a got a message that I was skillzoning, when all I did was playing D without getting fooled.

    So if thats skillzoning you might just as well give up the concept of getting a smarter AI, cause thats whats very many looking for, to exploit AI and go for a cheese. And if they dont, they blame you for skillzoning....

    *And sorry for off-topic Majjam, it's so easy to get carried away, but its about the game, at least... 😏

    Well, let me tell you what is NOT skill-zoning:
    Skill zoning is when you just control one guy usually the center and just sit in the middle and hardly switch players



    What our friend is describing above is more like "babysitting the AI" which likes to run around chasing the puck carrier without any regard for the human player's position. When that happens your best bet is to just observe and switch when the AI generated chaos will permit. In fact, many "top players" will use this tactic like Top Shelf Cookie, Nuke and Pens91. Go try telling them they're skill zoning. LOL!


    But I honestly don't see any other good options to defend myself against players that dont want to play hockey. Instead they turn themselves inside out in the corners. Im not going to play cat and mouse.

    That is why you are forced to be passive. If you engage the chances of you getting beat on some Tom Foolery is pretty high. You are forced to stick with your man but keep him at arms length. With poke being so dangerous and trying to check with someone's stick extended outward being a liability, you have to constantly play contain. This is one of the reasons for the monotony of the game. Forwards can play nothing but perimeter hockey and just wait for 5 minutes until you get bored and attack for them to loop, short side snipe. Everything I know about the game says perimeter hockey = you are going to lose.

    I have said it countless times, it is incumbent upon the offense to EARN scoring chances, not to wait guys out for the 80% shots. Look at the video @TheMajjam posted yesterday. He got scored on through 3 guys in the slot. The play should have been dead. Instead, the offense was, as is tradition, gifted something they did not deserve. I mean, realistically, there is no shot or player who can score on the same shot with such regularity. Ovechkin, aka the best goal scorer in modern times (this is coming from a Pens fan too lol), takes so many shots from the LW circle on the PP and his best shooting percentage ever was 15.4%. We have read it so many times "We are trying to get realistic stats on 4 minute periods." That is fine. However, anything above 25-30% success should immediately be investigated.

    They talk about adding realism but yet you can lose a game 3-2 outshooting your opponent 34-7...umm, what?

    "November 4, 1998 – Mike Vernon made 21 saves to record his 19th career shutout in the Sharks 4-0 win against the visiting Dallas Stars. Shutouts are neat, but that’s not the interesting part – the Sharks recorded nine shots on goal. In the entire game. They had nine shots on net, and scored four goals. They had nine shots and won the game. It was the fewest SOG by a winning team since people actually starting tracking the stat in 1955. And they won by four goals. Wow."

    "The Leafs beat the Blues 4-0 in 1999 after recording only 9 shots on goal."

    Only twice, since 1955 has this ever happened.

    Yeah I 'wish' I could chase them and just put them up against the board, but its a really dangerous move, the chance of being over played is way to big. And thats a 95-100% score in that case.

    Thanks for the history and yeah, I had games where I outshot my opponent with 50-5 but still loose, and okey, I might have over do the shooting, beacuse it started to just be crazy that nothing went by, so not 50 shots were dangerous, but please, I deserve one goal at least.. To take a shot should never be a bad idea, sounds cliché, but really, you never know what could happen, but in this game, I use to have a clue whats not going to happen.. It's way more effectively to just move around like a cirkus and wait for that 99% shot for goal.
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    I was asking in another thread:

    would like to hear how people define skillzoning?

    I think this concept is lead by a big misunderstanding.

    I was playing a guy that refused to make a move anywhere near my net, I keept my controlled player in steady motion in the center around my goalie, to cut him off and to keep him on the outside, and all he was waiting for was for me to give up position so he could go short side or 1timer.
    Why should I switch to my AI player and do the same chasin my AI can do, when I can do a much better job if I stay in line and cut him off..?

    After the game a got a message that I was skillzoning, when all I did was playing D without getting fooled.

    So if thats skillzoning you might just as well give up the concept of getting a smarter AI, cause thats whats very many looking for, to exploit AI and go for a cheese. And if they dont, they blame you for skillzoning....

    *And sorry for off-topic Majjam, it's so easy to get carried away, but its about the game, at least... 😏

    Well, let me tell you what is NOT skill-zoning:
    Skill zoning is when you just control one guy usually the center and just sit in the middle and hardly switch players



    What our friend is describing above is more like "babysitting the AI" which likes to run around chasing the puck carrier without any regard for the human player's position. When that happens your best bet is to just observe and switch when the AI generated chaos will permit. In fact, many "top players" will use this tactic like Top Shelf Cookie, Nuke and Pens91. Go try telling them they're skill zoning. LOL!


    But I honestly don't see any other good options to defend myself against players that dont want to play hockey. Instead they turn themselves inside out in the corners. Im not going to play cat and mouse.

    That is why you are forced to be passive. If you engage the chances of you getting beat on some Tom Foolery is pretty high. You are forced to stick with your man but keep him at arms length. With poke being so dangerous and trying to check with someone's stick extended outward being a liability, you have to constantly play contain. This is one of the reasons for the monotony of the game. Forwards can play nothing but perimeter hockey and just wait for 5 minutes until you get bored and attack for them to loop, short side snipe. Everything I know about the game says perimeter hockey = you are going to lose.

    I have said it countless times, it is incumbent upon the offense to EARN scoring chances, not to wait guys out for the 80% shots. Look at the video @TheMajjam posted yesterday. He got scored on through 3 guys in the slot. The play should have been dead. Instead, the offense was, as is tradition, gifted something they did not deserve. I mean, realistically, there is no shot or player who can score on the same shot with such regularity. Ovechkin, aka the best goal scorer in modern times (this is coming from a Pens fan too lol), takes so many shots from the LW circle on the PP and his best shooting percentage ever was 15.4%. We have read it so many times "We are trying to get realistic stats on 4 minute periods." That is fine. However, anything above 25-30% success should immediately be investigated.

    They talk about adding realism but yet you can lose a game 3-2 outshooting your opponent 34-7...umm, what?

    "November 4, 1998 – Mike Vernon made 21 saves to record his 19th career shutout in the Sharks 4-0 win against the visiting Dallas Stars. Shutouts are neat, but that’s not the interesting part – the Sharks recorded nine shots on goal. In the entire game. They had nine shots on net, and scored four goals. They had nine shots and won the game. It was the fewest SOG by a winning team since people actually starting tracking the stat in 1955. And they won by four goals. Wow."

    "The Leafs beat the Blues 4-0 in 1999 after recording only 9 shots on goal."

    Only twice, since 1955 has this ever happened.

    Yeah I 'wish' I could chase them and just put them up against the board, but its a really dangerous move, the chance of being over played is way to big. And thats a 95-100% score in that case.

    Thanks for the history and yeah, I had games where I outshot my opponent with 50-5 but still loose, and okey, I might have over do the shooting, beacuse it started to just be crazy that nothing went by, so not 50 shots were dangerous, but please, I deserve one goal at least.. To take a shot should never be a bad idea, sounds cliché, but really, you never know what could happen, but in this game, I use to have a clue whats not going to happen.. It's way more effectively to just move around like a cirkus and wait for that 99% shot for goal.

    Let's be serious...and how boring is that? How boring is it when NHL, the fastest game on Earth they say, turns into this big waiting game? Pass around the perimeter, skate in silly circles, loop in repetition, the defenders play contain, nothing happens.

    All of the gimmicks in the world couldn't put Humpty back together again...
  • Sega82mega
    1471 posts Member
    edited September 24
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    I was asking in another thread:

    would like to hear how people define skillzoning?

    I think this concept is lead by a big misunderstanding.

    I was playing a guy that refused to make a move anywhere near my net, I keept my controlled player in steady motion in the center around my goalie, to cut him off and to keep him on the outside, and all he was waiting for was for me to give up position so he could go short side or 1timer.
    Why should I switch to my AI player and do the same chasin my AI can do, when I can do a much better job if I stay in line and cut him off..?

    After the game a got a message that I was skillzoning, when all I did was playing D without getting fooled.

    So if thats skillzoning you might just as well give up the concept of getting a smarter AI, cause thats whats very many looking for, to exploit AI and go for a cheese. And if they dont, they blame you for skillzoning....

    *And sorry for off-topic Majjam, it's so easy to get carried away, but its about the game, at least... 😏

    Well, let me tell you what is NOT skill-zoning:
    Skill zoning is when you just control one guy usually the center and just sit in the middle and hardly switch players



    What our friend is describing above is more like "babysitting the AI" which likes to run around chasing the puck carrier without any regard for the human player's position. When that happens your best bet is to just observe and switch when the AI generated chaos will permit. In fact, many "top players" will use this tactic like Top Shelf Cookie, Nuke and Pens91. Go try telling them they're skill zoning. LOL!


    But I honestly don't see any other good options to defend myself against players that dont want to play hockey. Instead they turn themselves inside out in the corners. Im not going to play cat and mouse.

    That is why you are forced to be passive. If you engage the chances of you getting beat on some Tom Foolery is pretty high. You are forced to stick with your man but keep him at arms length. With poke being so dangerous and trying to check with someone's stick extended outward being a liability, you have to constantly play contain. This is one of the reasons for the monotony of the game. Forwards can play nothing but perimeter hockey and just wait for 5 minutes until you get bored and attack for them to loop, short side snipe. Everything I know about the game says perimeter hockey = you are going to lose.

    I have said it countless times, it is incumbent upon the offense to EARN scoring chances, not to wait guys out for the 80% shots. Look at the video @TheMajjam posted yesterday. He got scored on through 3 guys in the slot. The play should have been dead. Instead, the offense was, as is tradition, gifted something they did not deserve. I mean, realistically, there is no shot or player who can score on the same shot with such regularity. Ovechkin, aka the best goal scorer in modern times (this is coming from a Pens fan too lol), takes so many shots from the LW circle on the PP and his best shooting percentage ever was 15.4%. We have read it so many times "We are trying to get realistic stats on 4 minute periods." That is fine. However, anything above 25-30% success should immediately be investigated.

    They talk about adding realism but yet you can lose a game 3-2 outshooting your opponent 34-7...umm, what?

    "November 4, 1998 – Mike Vernon made 21 saves to record his 19th career shutout in the Sharks 4-0 win against the visiting Dallas Stars. Shutouts are neat, but that’s not the interesting part – the Sharks recorded nine shots on goal. In the entire game. They had nine shots on net, and scored four goals. They had nine shots and won the game. It was the fewest SOG by a winning team since people actually starting tracking the stat in 1955. And they won by four goals. Wow."

    "The Leafs beat the Blues 4-0 in 1999 after recording only 9 shots on goal."

    Only twice, since 1955 has this ever happened.

    Yeah I 'wish' I could chase them and just put them up against the board, but its a really dangerous move, the chance of being over played is way to big. And thats a 95-100% score in that case.

    Thanks for the history and yeah, I had games where I outshot my opponent with 50-5 but still loose, and okey, I might have over do the shooting, beacuse it started to just be crazy that nothing went by, so not 50 shots were dangerous, but please, I deserve one goal at least.. To take a shot should never be a bad idea, sounds cliché, but really, you never know what could happen, but in this game, I use to have a clue whats not going to happen.. It's way more effectively to just move around like a cirkus and wait for that 99% shot for goal.

    Let's be serious...and how boring is that? How boring is it when NHL, the fastest game on Earth they say, turns into this big waiting game? Pass around the perimeter, skate in silly circles, loop in repetition, the defenders play contain, nothing happens.

    All of the gimmicks in the world couldn't put Humpty back together again...

    No there's nothing more that I hate.... Thats why I try to keep the puck to myself, as much as I can.... 🙄😏

    And no one seem to trust there goalies, which makes every people go for an instant hit or shot block. No one seem to leave a shooter to the goalie. Which is abit boring too.

    I usally give my opponent's some good chance to shoot for a goal but that rarely works, they must be sure it will be a goal before anyone realese the trigger.
  • This topic has gone all over the place. But plain and simple the change to transitional skating for players without the puck is a horrible change that will do nothing but make an already over powered offensive game get even easier.

    This is no more of a skill gap improvement than literally changing ANYTHING about this game. Those that play more and are smarter players will adapt better/faster. But that doesn't make it a good thing. Defense is going to have to play even more passive positionally.

    Yes this is a video game, not real hockey. I get that as much or more than anyone. That doesn't mean we should unnecessarily make this game even less realistic just so forwards can more easily "blow by" their defenders.

    The number one goal that this dying game should have is finding ways to improve its player base in online gaming. EASHL has slowly become the land of no one wanting to play defense or goalie other than competitive 6s. Even then almost every dman I know wants to "play up" as much as possible when they get away from league play. The problem of getting more people to play 6s is not an easy problem to solve but you make it harder when you gimp defense and goalie with changes like this.
  • On the other hand, defenders are so gimped with tools to begin with it may make playing proper gap impossible. Maybe not impossible. Let's say it will force defenders to be more perfect than they are already need to be while, as usual, not holding forwards accountable for anything. Forwards can come down, skate as fast as they can, make a stupid play, perhaps lose possession, and then, with the help of "hustle", find themselves able to backcheck and get back into a play they should have been out of. Complete contradiction.

    Funny thing is, though, it was said "defenders need to learn how and when to pivot"...how in the heck is that the standard they are using to create a skill gap? Pivoting?? Not positioning, not stick work, not how to play a 2 on 1. Pivoting. It is identical to the initial "skill gap" with the new shooting..."Make sure you set your feet"...really? Set my feet? This, right here, is the kind of realism nobody wants. I want realism in terms of plays and strategies NOT these micro-movements that aren't even possible considering we use controllers.

    From the test, especially on day 2-3, I saw forwards skating in straight lines as fast as possible knowing they were going to have an easy take to the net if I played them tight. They took the meta I (we both agree on this) hate and made it worse. My "skill gap" learning and improvement came down to "alright then, I will make sure I am back further and abandon any thoughts of gap. Hockey 101 says, "If you keep backing up into your goalie you are probably going to screen him and/or give up way too much space in the middle of the ice".

    This is the issue I have. If you play responsible defense at all, maintaining proper gap control is basically going to mean you will be unable to contribute much, if at all, offensively. Even keeping the puck in at the blue line is going to be a dicey proposition.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • My old coach used to drill something into our players back in the day (not just the offense): "Hockey is 99.5% positional. If you chase the puck, you're losing position. Play smart and you don't have to go get the puck, the puck comes to you. Keep your head on a swivel and move when and where you need to move."

    Once you know that, you also know how to generate offense; you make defense move out of position. And you do that by setting up a proper cycle with your team. Move the puck well enough, you might make the Defensive team get out of position enough to finally work out a good scoring chance. And then you repeat the cycle over and over again until someone wins. That's the most exciting type of hockey. Not hockey that ends in 8-6 scores with 8 shots to 11. Typically in a game of hockey, you'll see maybe 15 good scoring chances per team, but only about 3 goals on average. But that's what people want to see.

    I did a research on @Stovetop9620 's topic a couple of months back. Do you know how many games in the NHL ended with a team only shooting 10 shots or less since the 1980s?

    19...

    And that's in the last 40 years. Think about it for a second. In over 40 000 matches in the NHL since then, there are only NINETEEN times a game ended with a team only shooting 10 times or less on net. And in those nineteen games, only 2 have ever scored more than 2 goals in 10 shots or fewer.

    Now compare that to EA's NHL.

    Like stovetop said, the Devs will tell you that the game is built around realism based on things like the game's speed and period length. Awesome! So let's take a common match between two "top-tier" teams in NHL 20 that ends in 3-1, with the shots being 8-10 for the winning team. Now extrapolate the results so that it resembles the stats of a full 20 minute game at normal speed. With a very conservative look, game would've ended 9-3, with 24 shots to 30 in real life.

    Doesn't that seem excessive and (more than) a little unrealistic??

    And that's where the problem lies. Scoring is extremely unrealistic and easy in this game. Defense (proper defense) is extremely difficult and also very unrealistic. So the game turns into a boring mess of offense twirling around in the corners and defense standing still in front of their net.

    Nothing like actual hockey.

  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    My old coach used to drill something into our players back in the day (not just the offense): "Hockey is 99.5% positional. If you chase the puck, you're losing position. Play smart and you don't have to go get the puck, the puck comes to you. Keep your head on a swivel and move when and where you need to move."

    Once you know that, you also know how to generate offense; you make defense move out of position. And you do that by setting up a proper cycle with your team. Move the puck well enough, you might make the Defensive team get out of position enough to finally work out a good scoring chance. And then you repeat the cycle over and over again until someone wins. That's the most exciting type of hockey. Not hockey that ends in 8-6 scores with 8 shots to 11. Typically in a game of hockey, you'll see maybe 15 good scoring chances per team, but only about 3 goals on average. But that's what people want to see.

    I did a research on @Stovetop9620 's topic a couple of months back. Do you know how many games in the NHL ended with a team only shooting 10 shots or less since the 1980s?

    19...

    And that's in the last 40 years. Think about it for a second. In over 40 000 matches in the NHL since then, there are only NINETEEN times a game ended with a team only shooting 10 times or less on net. And in those nineteen games, only 2 have ever scored more than 2 goals in 10 shots or fewer.

    Now compare that to EA's NHL.

    Like stovetop said, the Devs will tell you that the game is built around realism based on things like the game's speed and period length. Awesome! So let's take a common match between two "top-tier" teams in NHL 20 that ends in 3-1, with the shots being 8-10 for the winning team. Now extrapolate the results so that it resembles the stats of a full 20 minute game at normal speed. With a very conservative look, game would've ended 9-3, with 24 shots to 30 in real life.

    Doesn't that seem excessive and (more than) a little unrealistic??

    And that's where the problem lies. Scoring is extremely unrealistic and easy in this game. Defense (proper defense) is extremely difficult and also very unrealistic. So the game turns into a boring mess of offense twirling around in the corners and defense standing still in front of their net.

    Nothing like actual hockey.

    1. Also known as "skill-zoning" in the EA NHL world
    2. Nope, not exciting. According to EA NHL players, battles of attrition are not nearly as fun as rapid fire, no hold barred hockey.
    3. See 1 and 2. They have created this meta that is supposed to be FUN and DYNAMIC only for the true outcome to be boring monotony.

    So we have a gimped defense now having to precisely calculate pivoting where micro-movements and weight management is not even possible given we use controllers.

    I don't know about you guys but at 35 and not nearly in the shape I was in at 25, I can pivot, maintain my backward speed, and keep up with 23 year old kids like a champion still. Force them outside. Someone may say "Well, you just said this is a boring game because it's all perimeter. That is contradiction." I will then say, "Yeah, usually whenever this happens in actual hockey I can then ATTACK the forward because they are isolated into the corner that I forced them into and no magical spin or backskating twirl will allow them to escape the absolute suffocating defense I can still play."
  • Sega82mega
    1471 posts Member
    edited September 24
    This topic has gone all over the place. But plain and simple the change to transitional skating for players without the puck is a horrible change that will do nothing but make an already over powered offensive game get even easier.

    This is no more of a skill gap improvement than literally changing ANYTHING about this game. Those that play more and are smarter players will adapt better/faster. But that doesn't make it a good thing. Defense is going to have to play even more passive positionally.

    Yes this is a video game, not real hockey. I get that as much or more than anyone. That doesn't mean we should unnecessarily make this game even less realistic just so forwards can more easily "blow by" their defenders.

    The number one goal that this dying game should have is finding ways to improve its player base in online gaming. EASHL has slowly become the land of no one wanting to play defense or goalie other than competitive 6s. Even then almost every dman I know wants to "play up" as much as possible when they get away from league play. The problem of getting more people to play 6s is not an easy problem to solve but you make it harder when you gimp defense and goalie with changes like this.

    But so you are sayin you are more or less happy with how things are now? We're you can skate around all over the place like it is nothing, without any real consequences?

    For me? Im tired of this gameplay we had almost over 5 years, I welcome any change that can lead us in to something new, unknown.

    *I apologize for bringing this thread off topic, I did contributed.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    My old coach used to drill something into our players back in the day (not just the offense): "Hockey is 99.5% positional. If you chase the puck, you're losing position. Play smart and you don't have to go get the puck, the puck comes to you. Keep your head on a swivel and move when and where you need to move."

    Once you know that, you also know how to generate offense; you make defense move out of position. And you do that by setting up a proper cycle with your team. Move the puck well enough, you might make the Defensive team get out of position enough to finally work out a good scoring chance. And then you repeat the cycle over and over again until someone wins. That's the most exciting type of hockey. Not hockey that ends in 8-6 scores with 8 shots to 11. Typically in a game of hockey, you'll see maybe 15 good scoring chances per team, but only about 3 goals on average. But that's what people want to see.

    I did a research on @Stovetop9620 's topic a couple of months back. Do you know how many games in the NHL ended with a team only shooting 10 shots or less since the 1980s?

    19...

    And that's in the last 40 years. Think about it for a second. In over 40 000 matches in the NHL since then, there are only NINETEEN times a game ended with a team only shooting 10 times or less on net. And in those nineteen games, only 2 have ever scored more than 2 goals in 10 shots or fewer.

    Now compare that to EA's NHL.

    Like stovetop said, the Devs will tell you that the game is built around realism based on things like the game's speed and period length. Awesome! So let's take a common match between two "top-tier" teams in NHL 20 that ends in 3-1, with the shots being 8-10 for the winning team. Now extrapolate the results so that it resembles the stats of a full 20 minute game at normal speed. With a very conservative look, game would've ended 9-3, with 24 shots to 30 in real life.

    Doesn't that seem excessive and (more than) a little unrealistic??

    And that's where the problem lies. Scoring is extremely unrealistic and easy in this game. Defense (proper defense) is extremely difficult and also very unrealistic. So the game turns into a boring mess of offense twirling around in the corners and defense standing still in front of their net.

    Nothing like actual hockey.

    1. Also known as "skill-zoning" in the EA NHL world
    2. Nope, not exciting. According to EA NHL players, battles of attrition are not nearly as fun as rapid fire, no hold barred hockey.
    3. See 1 and 2. They have created this meta that is supposed to be FUN and DYNAMIC only for the true outcome to be boring monotony.

    So we have a gimped defense now having to precisely calculate pivoting where micro-movements and weight management is not even possible given we use controllers.

    I don't know about you guys but at 35 and not nearly in the shape I was in at 25, I can pivot, maintain my backward speed, and keep up with 23 year old kids like a champion still. Force them outside. Someone may say "Well, you just said this is a boring game because it's all perimeter. That is contradiction." I will then say, "Yeah, usually whenever this happens in actual hockey I can then ATTACK the forward because they are isolated into the corner that I forced them into and no magical spin or backskating twirl will allow them to escape the absolute suffocating defense I can still play."

    The best part about your #2 is that this game is NOT rapid fire. Most goals are scored by gliding idiots who spun off 6 hits as a 5’7” sniper then scored just an abysmal goal from the tops of the circles. It’s high scoring yet amazingly boring. Now that’s an impressive meta if you ask me. They managed to make even high scoring games boring!

    My buddies and I played some 3s last night because one of their Rocket League’s didnt auto update so we we’re waiting for that to finish and omg is 3 games if 3s enough to never want to touch online again. I mean, offensively we were having sort of fun doing lots of drop passes, cycles, 1-2-3 pass/shoot plays and as expected weren’t scoring a ton because EA hockey, but we had more fun with the process hence why we all enjoy a game that actually requires skill and consistently applies their game rules and physics across 100% of their games.

    The biggest thing the plagues this game time and time again is that screens do not matter in online modes. This team literally sat “skill zoning” with two people in the net and then they let their AI attack the carrier and just run around like a chicken with his head cut off. There was simply no counter to this. Goalie ate everything, saw everything, and the CPU with their infinite stamina and 100% acceleration at all times could effectively mitigate us from getting to the EA-defined “sweet spots” to score. We ended up beating that team 3-2 in OT with 15 minutes of TOA to their 3 and shots being 23-5. What were their goals? One-hand tuck goals setup by their CPU being able to not only win a 50/50 in the corner 100% of the time, but also because the CPU can make a 100ft stretch pass while his nose is touching the glass by using his backhand through his legs...lol. I should add that both one-hand tucks did not involve any lateral movement because that would at least make sense. No no, these were both off a dude skating down his strong-side, making no even flinch towards the weakside, then one-hand tucking the puck weakside while a defender was almost even with him on his weakside hip both times.

    So yeah, playing with friends can make this game salvageable I guess by setting up real plays, but it’s actually baffling that people think there’s 1. A skill gap and 2. That the default slider set “leans towards simulation” lol. I mean, if that’s not an echo-chamber or some sort of justification/rationalization of your own objectively false interpretation of what hockey is, then idk what is.

    This team was so boring and passive that 1-2-3 plays were open all day. We ripped so many one-timers and backdoor plays and got rewarded on literally 1. Meanwhile, in our losing effort (3-2 OT) two fake shot PS glitch goals and one outside of the tops of the circle “snipe” with no screen because the shooter was moving at a snails pace. Granted, my buddy is pretty bad at NHL and kind of looked like a CPU player in 2-on-2 scenarios and just completely left the forehand side uncontested, but he also played division 1 hockey so I’m sure he wasn’t recognizing someone barely gliding from beyond the tops of the circle as a “dangerous” threat because not even peewees do.

    “Leans towards simulation” lol. One poke check from the front = tripping to “prevent spam” + LT stops and curls on a dime + goalies can’t make mundane saves but beautiful passing plays are walks in the park + removing checking except for 20-stride runs (which will be called for charging) to “fix the bumps” = realism?

    The tuners are there man. This game can be tuned to encourage actual hockey without sacrificing the “pickup and play” aspect they strive for. They just refuse to do it and refuse to let people who want to do it, be able to do it with friends. The community being jaded isn’t because the community has unrealistic expectations, I think that’s abundantly clear...
  • jmwalsh8888
    1085 posts Member
    edited September 24
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    This topic has gone all over the place. But plain and simple the change to transitional skating for players without the puck is a horrible change that will do nothing but make an already over powered offensive game get even easier.

    This is no more of a skill gap improvement than literally changing ANYTHING about this game. Those that play more and are smarter players will adapt better/faster. But that doesn't make it a good thing. Defense is going to have to play even more passive positionally.

    Yes this is a video game, not real hockey. I get that as much or more than anyone. That doesn't mean we should unnecessarily make this game even less realistic just so forwards can more easily "blow by" their defenders.

    The number one goal that this dying game should have is finding ways to improve its player base in online gaming. EASHL has slowly become the land of no one wanting to play defense or goalie other than competitive 6s. Even then almost every dman I know wants to "play up" as much as possible when they get away from league play. The problem of getting more people to play 6s is not an easy problem to solve but you make it harder when you gimp defense and goalie with changes like this.

    But so you are sayin you are more or less happy with how things are now? We're you can skate around all over the place like it is nothing, without any real consequences?

    For me? Im tired of this gameplay we had almost over 5 years, I welcome any change that can lead us in to something new, unknown.

    *I apologize for bringing this thread off topic, I did contributed.

    I'm not sure what you mean by skate around all over the place with no consequences. if you mean the "flat footed" experience you found in nhl 21, that is not consequences, that is poor mechanics. Elite level skaters, like most NHL players are (or heck even the AAA teenagers I see every day), will not get caught flat footed because of mechanics/skills. Its a mental problem. Its about how they think and anticipate. In NHL 20 you can get caught flat footed plenty. But what you don't have is slow back skating that when you try to transition to front skating (and vice versa) is really slow and cumbersome. Its very realistic. Go watch elite young skaters play defense and they move around the ice with ease, constantly transitioning from front to back skating without the slightest hitch. In NHL 21 that all changed. They took a mechanic that was kind of broken a little bit in one way but not over powering except when you have the puck and nerfed horribly.

    Funny thing is it didn't have the intended affect. LTing is not as over powered but still very effective with the puck. I think that is actually in a good place. Modern hockey players transition skate with the puck to use their body to protect the puck and change the angle of attack with their forehand.

    in NHL 20 there are absolutely consequences for the "choices" you make when playing defense. Every single time i make a bad choice i'm burned easily. The only mechanics in this game that in any way make defense feel "too easy" have nothing to do with transitioning in and out of back skating. Its other stuff like the power of a grinder to just stand in middle of the ice doing nothing and knocking people off the puck and stealing it and keeping it with minimal effort. Where playing defense is turned into minimalist work of feather around using left stick, occasionally poking, stick lifting and the OP hip checking.

    One of the reasons LT'ing is too powerful in this game is because unlike real life we can see the entire ice at all times. we have eyes in back of our head. Oh well nothing you can do about that.

    Point I have is LT'ing needed a nerf while carrying puck. But with all the problems this game has and all the things that need fixing, don't break one of the things that works and is useful for people playing the least popular positions.

    That being said I've almost never seen them do anything like this and back it out later, so better get used to it. Because its not changing. Same old thing just adapt.

    BTW in my opinion this discussion of "skill gap" problems in this game is complete ****. Even if you broke this game down into like 5 tiers. The #1 tier players would beat the #2 tier players 99/100 and often beat them badly. Thats huge gap. Just because some of the skills of this game have become easier, its still a very complicated game to master and at times I think the gap is bigger than ever.
  • Sega82mega
    1471 posts Member
    edited September 25
    For me that like to keep the puck and use every teammate on the ice, this change was a gamechanger. Dependent on direaction, side to side, up and down, down and up.. If the opponent didnt follow my pattern on the ice.. For example: If my forward gave back the puck to my D, and the other guy had no chance to get neither the puck(by poke) or me(by hit) but instead of fall back for new position,(which had been most logically, hockey wise) he tryed for the impossible, to go after me and the puck, in other words: he was building a wrong momentum in up direaction,(did stretch hes own team) all I had to do then was to give a forward the puck, and at the same time he had to switch from hes forward that keept pushing, to he's defender, when I had the speed(momentum) on my side, and he was in troubel, when he's D was caught off gaurd, no way he could catch me. And it all started when he pushed to hard with he's forward, he was going after the puck when he clearly shouldn't, missread the play, if he had fall back in position, this had never happen..

    So what im sayin here.. Is that you have to think much more in where the force (speed momentum) is coming from. Or else you might get burned. You have to calculate angles, be more flexible with the game flow. Not just up-and-down-up-and-down, a ice hockey rink dosent look that way.

    This worked well in my 1vs1 mode, I cant speak for anything else.

    *Team effort did play a much bigger role on how your whole team act on the ice. I can imagine it's the same way in eashl, might have been your own forwards that put you defenders in problem, beacuse how they moved around on the ice, just throwing it out.. Don't know..
    Post edited by Sega82mega on
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    This topic has gone all over the place. But plain and simple the change to transitional skating for players without the puck is a horrible change that will do nothing but make an already over powered offensive game get even easier.

    This is no more of a skill gap improvement than literally changing ANYTHING about this game. Those that play more and are smarter players will adapt better/faster. But that doesn't make it a good thing. Defense is going to have to play even more passive positionally.

    Yes this is a video game, not real hockey. I get that as much or more than anyone. That doesn't mean we should unnecessarily make this game even less realistic just so forwards can more easily "blow by" their defenders.

    The number one goal that this dying game should have is finding ways to improve its player base in online gaming. EASHL has slowly become the land of no one wanting to play defense or goalie other than competitive 6s. Even then almost every dman I know wants to "play up" as much as possible when they get away from league play. The problem of getting more people to play 6s is not an easy problem to solve but you make it harder when you gimp defense and goalie with changes like this.

    But so you are sayin you are more or less happy with how things are now? We're you can skate around all over the place like it is nothing, without any real consequences?

    For me? Im tired of this gameplay we had almost over 5 years, I welcome any change that can lead us in to something new, unknown.

    *I apologize for bringing this thread off topic, I did contributed.

    I'm not sure what you mean by skate around all over the place with no consequences. if you mean the "flat footed" experience you found in nhl 21, that is not consequences, that is poor mechanics. Elite level skaters, like most NHL players are (or heck even the AAA teenagers I see every day), will not get caught flat footed because of mechanics/skills. Its a mental problem. Its about how they think and anticipate. In NHL 20 you can get caught flat footed plenty. But what you don't have is slow back skating that when you try to transition to front skating (and vice versa) is really slow and cumbersome. Its very realistic. Go watch elite young skaters play defense and they move around the ice with ease, constantly transitioning from front to back skating without the slightest hitch. In NHL 21 that all changed. They took a mechanic that was kind of broken a little bit in one way but not over powering except when you have the puck and nerfed horribly.

    Funny thing is it didn't have the intended affect. LTing is not as over powered but still very effective with the puck. I think that is actually in a good place. Modern hockey players transition skate with the puck to use their body to protect the puck and change the angle of attack with their forehand.

    in NHL 20 there are absolutely consequences for the "choices" you make when playing defense. Every single time i make a bad choice i'm burned easily. The only mechanics in this game that in any way make defense feel "too easy" have nothing to do with transitioning in and out of back skating. Its other stuff like the power of a grinder to just stand in middle of the ice doing nothing and knocking people off the puck and stealing it and keeping it with minimal effort. Where playing defense is turned into minimalist work of feather around using left stick, occasionally poking, stick lifting and the OP hip checking.

    One of the reasons LT'ing is too powerful in this game is because unlike real life we can see the entire ice at all times. we have eyes in back of our head. Oh well nothing you can do about that.

    Point I have is LT'ing needed a nerf while carrying puck. But with all the problems this game has and all the things that need fixing, don't break one of the things that works and is useful for people playing the least popular positions.

    That being said I've almost never seen them do anything like this and back it out later, so better get used to it. Because its not changing. Same old thing just adapt.

    BTW in my opinion this discussion of "skill gap" problems in this game is complete ****. Even if you broke this game down into like 5 tiers. The #1 tier players would beat the #2 tier players 99/100 and often beat them badly. Thats huge gap. Just because some of the skills of this game have become easier, its still a very complicated game to master and at times I think the gap is bigger than ever.

    Good post @jmwalsh8888 .
  • One of the reasons LT'ing is too powerful in this game is because unlike real life we can see the entire ice at all times. we have eyes in back of our head. Oh well nothing you can do about that.

    Point I have is LT'ing needed a nerf while carrying puck. But with all the problems this game has and all the things that need fixing, don't break one of the things that works and is useful for people playing the least popular positions.
    IMO the only thing they really needed to do here to fix this was make a player realistically "hittable" when he is skating backwards into the play with the puck. IRL if a dude tried this he would FLATTENED.

    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • I'm late to the party but on the original topic, I actually heavily disagree. I played the beta mostly as a defenseman and it's now like real life. Get caught puck watching and you're gonna get burned. Transitional skating was realistic in the beta. That's right. If some guy is ten feet away from you and gets the jump on you, you're not gonna catch him if you have to transition and accelerate up to his pace.

    That's real life.

    You need to mind the gap. This also allows offense to dump the puck in behind you now too. The acceleration was pretty accurate.

    Now what they need to do is increase defenseman's overall speed. Defenders should be able to keep up with the fastest forwards respectably.
  • I'm late to the party but on the original topic, I actually heavily disagree. I played the beta mostly as a defenseman and it's now like real life. Get caught puck watching and you're gonna get burned. Transitional skating was realistic in the beta. That's right. If some guy is ten feet away from you and gets the jump on you, you're not gonna catch him if you have to transition and accelerate up to his pace.

    That's real life.

    You need to mind the gap. This also allows offense to dump the puck in behind you now too. The acceleration was pretty accurate.

    Now what they need to do is increase defenseman's overall speed. Defenders should be able to keep up with the fastest forwards respectably.

    I think you are missing what some were saying.

    When you are back skating and keeping a good gap but realize there's a good chance you will be beat, you should be able to transition to front skating instantly without losing speed and as soon as it transitions you can pick up speed front skating. Thats real life. In my limited time in tech test it seemed like there was a wonky hitchy transition that actually slowed you down when you tried to transition from back skating to front skating. The result was you had to basically stay in backskating the entire time and give much bigger gaps.

    Not exactly sure what you are talking about. Maybe its a different example.
  • TheMajjam
    682 posts Member
    edited October 6
    I'm late to the party but on the original topic, I actually heavily disagree. I played the beta mostly as a defenseman and it's now like real life. Get caught puck watching and you're gonna get burned. Transitional skating was realistic in the beta. That's right. If some guy is ten feet away from you and gets the jump on you, you're not gonna catch him if you have to transition and accelerate up to his pace.

    That's real life.

    You need to mind the gap. This also allows offense to dump the puck in behind you now too. The acceleration was pretty accurate.

    Now what they need to do is increase defenseman's overall speed. Defenders should be able to keep up with the fastest forwards respectably.

    I think you are missing what some were saying.

    When you are back skating and keeping a good gap but realize there's a good chance you will be beat, you should be able to transition to front skating instantly without losing speed and as soon as it transitions you can pick up speed front skating. Thats real life. In my limited time in tech test it seemed like there was a wonky hitchy transition that actually slowed you down when you tried to transition from back skating to front skating. The result was you had to basically stay in backskating the entire time and give much bigger gaps.

    Not exactly sure what you are talking about. Maybe its a different example.

    Exactly. You can do everything right in the scenario, but purposely slowing the player without the puck at the pivot makes it harder than what should be needed in order to keep up with the play.

    They literally did to players without the puck what should have been done to players WITH the puck to curb the LT spam. Because "skill gap".

    I didn't play a game of 6's during the beta. It was all 3's. My record for 20 3's is 283-61, with the majority of that playing with randoms. So I think I have a grasp on how to play, but in 21 I was getting beat on the rush a lot. A lot. Giving too much room gave players too many options, but when I would try to slow to close the gap, forwards are at full speed and pulling off dekes and NOT losing speed. The pivot slowing me down was the icing on the cake.

    The most success I found was that I had to anticipate the forwards starting to streak in and give them the neutral zone and partially my zone. I chose to defend near the goalie for any sort of chance at mounting a decent defense, and even then, one-timers go in like it's cake because the zippy passes go by you while you skate in honey.

    People are forgetting that the pivot does not just occur on the rush. There's pivoting in the O-zone (for positioning) and there's A LOT of pivoting in the D-zone when the puck is being cycled around your zone. All without the puck.

    TL;DR - They sped up the forwards and slowed the D for no reason.
    Post edited by TheMajjam on
  • I'm late to the party but on the original topic, I actually heavily disagree. I played the beta mostly as a defenseman and it's now like real life. Get caught puck watching and you're gonna get burned. Transitional skating was realistic in the beta. That's right. If some guy is ten feet away from you and gets the jump on you, you're not gonna catch him if you have to transition and accelerate up to his pace.

    That's real life.

    You need to mind the gap. This also allows offense to dump the puck in behind you now too. The acceleration was pretty accurate.

    Now what they need to do is increase defenseman's overall speed. Defenders should be able to keep up with the fastest forwards respectably.

    I think you are missing what some were saying.

    When you are back skating and keeping a good gap but realize there's a good chance you will be beat, you should be able to transition to front skating instantly without losing speed and as soon as it transitions you can pick up speed front skating. Thats real life. In my limited time in tech test it seemed like there was a wonky hitchy transition that actually slowed you down when you tried to transition from back skating to front skating. The result was you had to basically stay in backskating the entire time and give much bigger gaps.

    Not exactly sure what you are talking about. Maybe its a different example.

    Interesting. I did not have that issue at all and I'm a west coast guy.
  • I definitely think that dmen need more speed though, just for clarification. Forwards are stacked with speed and builds like defensive dmen are basically useless because they can't keep up.
  • Interesting. I did not have that issue at all and I'm a west coast guy.

    I am not sure if your comment here is referencing lag but it's not lag that we are talking about here either. It's a deliberate PROGRAMMED hitch. EA has basically said they have done this.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
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