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Let's Talk: NHL 21 Gameplay Trailer

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  • The reddit post was actually very informative. I read through it. I like what I saw. But I still wonder if it's enough.

    This: "This now isn't just the front of that player but the front of where they are moving so if they pivot to a backskate a poke into their skates with just your stick blade (showing you are in good position and have a good gap and aren't making contact that would easily cause a trip) they won't fall. "

    Me personal liked everything about that post, it's that kinda stuff we always talked about here on this forum.

    It will take some time before you get use to the new more forgiving poke/DSS system, I got the old one in my blood, but once you do, im sure it's gonna make a huge difference in your chances of defending your own zone. Even if they come backskating.
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Interesting info from Ben on reddit:

    "We have continued to make improvements to the core pokecheck mechanics and tripping penalty logic as well. The pokechecks themselves have an increased min and max range and are much more reliable. Player attributes and context still weigh in so you are at your best in control and poking directly in front of your player with a skilled defender than you are poking against your momentum behind you with a lower skilled defender where you would be more inaccurate. It is also important to time your poke so that the future position of the puck is consistent.

    For the tripping logic, we added to the concept of tolerance of your stick blade hitting the skates from the front of the puck carrier. This now isn't just the front of that player but the front of where they are moving so if they pivot to a backskate a poke into their skates with just your stick blade (showing you are in good position and have a good gap and aren't making contact that would easily cause a trip) they won't fall.

    We have also done a lot of work to identify the forceful frames of the poke itself to more reliably know when you are blending into the action or blending out with the intention being that you will only see a player trip if you make contact with them during the forceful frames of the pokecheck.

    For interference, we have made improvements to both player and goalie interference. These rules in real life can be subjective at times but we feel our overall logic is much tighter and we are always listening to the community to understand edge cases."

    we listen the community finnaly! ok....it is so good hear this.

    BUT the problem is with inconsistency
    in EA hockey, unfortunately, the script is always preferred over the hockey stick contract. That's why I asked, and EAaljo replied that the "oveckin boarding play" animation at the mantinel would always be completed before the stick could hit the puck. And this is the biggest problem that these scripts will not disappear even in nhl21, so there will be no foul, which is great that I can finally poke the puck against the player who will go against me.
    it's great to hear it, but after removing the puck, a script will be executed that will prevent another player from fighting for the puck. Until these scripts disappear, no other drive will help. The only help is the absolute contact of the hockey sticks with the puck, in any situation even during the executed script.

    it is the biggest different between 2k hockey EA hockey.
    Of course, 2k hockey also uses scripts, but when you contact the player, this script is turned off, and although 2k hockey looks like a 100-year-old affair with ugly animations from today's point of view, so thanks to 100% puck contact and reaction to every touch of the opponent, it's a current topic for EA programmers.

    The puck cannot be hidden from the opponent's stick in any way, and every touch of his stick must be visible in the game and in each replay.

  • Honestly from reading the Dev comments I think stacking defensive awareness even as a forward is gonna be the best thing all-around.

  • Yes you're right oslik, puck physics from the 2k video was fantastic and thats really importen for the game to flow, it has to be logic, if I shot/pass this hard and it bounce/defleact of the board/player/goalie/sticks/post I want to be giving a fair chance to calculate the pucks next area.

    Although it wasen't perfect in the Technical Test I did have some good moments, players that took down the puck with the glove, some nice bounce's of the board, and shots against goalies pads.

    But this kinda stuff can always be better!
  • Sega82mega
    1883 posts Member
    edited September 18
    I dont know, maybe everyone here read on reddit already, but for thoose that dont.

    Ben on the question if anything has been tweaked sence the test:

    "We took a good look at the game balance callouts from the community during the technical test and did a lot of testing on our side. With specific interest were the callouts around interceptions as there wasn't an intended difference there from 20. In our testing on latest, it is behaving as expected but we have looked at some tuning around the awareness models for how wide of an angle a player is aware of incoming pucks relative to their defensive awareness attributes to see if some of the tuning was too harsh but again this would be to tune from where it was in 20 as well, not something that was new for 21 in the technical test. The reaction times were all the same as well relative to what they were in 20 after the patch to balance interceptions.

    On the skating side, the change to accelerate to your 180 was by design. Players in the past could start accelerating before they should have been able to which is why players could recover unrealistically when caught flat footed at times. We believe that this will be a good skill gap in the game and that as players get more hands on time, they will adapt to the differences and it will make the overall game more realistic as well as separate the skill of defenders even more. Since the technical test, we have made further improvements to the ai as well as changed how their decisions to pivot work which also drives auto backskate so that will be much better but those that control their pivots manually will have even more control in that regard."

    Some more good quotes from ben:

    " We have worked on the differences between our most passive/conservative strategies to our most aggressive ones.

    This gives players more control to get their defenders to play back and more conservative if you set those strategies

    We definitely heard the callout though that the conservative strategies were still too aggressive and that is why we did work on their breakouts, rush and offensive zone logic to make them want to hang back more and keep bigger gaps relative to their more aggressive strategies. So make sure to play around with the strategies to get the most out of your ai teammates."
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Yes you're right oslik, puck physics from the 2k video was fantastic and thats really importen for the game to flow, it has to be logic, if I shot/pass this hard and it bounce/defleact of the board/player/goalie/sticks/post I want to be giving a fair chance to calculate the pucks next area.

    Although it wasen't perfect in the Technical Test I did have some good moments, players that took down the puck with the glove, some nice bounce's of the board, and shots against goalies pads.

    But this kinda stuff can always be better!

    yes. fair chance is always random chance. you can not do wait how puck will be go. in hockey you must do step first. it is a training.

    in real hockey, every player knows that an opponent can never process a puck quickly after being stabbed. in real hockey there is no script that would ensure that the puck jumps on a hockey stick according to the evaluation of other factors. But just as the puck, while maintaining physics, can never suddenly turn in the opposite direction ... these scripts must disappear from EA hockey forever and then the puck will be completely free. I don't think EA puck physics is so bad, but these automatic scripts completely change the way the reflections look like in the final.
  • I like how I work animations and scripts in EA hockey and I don't mind if the player is alone. There is a huge difference compared to 2k hockey where there are no animations and it looks awful. But this only applies if the player is alone! At the moment when the pass flies and the player is defended by the opponent and the script is executed ???? Lord God in heaven. This is the worst and most arcade thing that EA hockey will perform! The game just chooses one player out of two and the following animation unfortunately shows how this whole script spoils the game: the player receives a pass and with the puck on the stick turns and the stick goes through the body of the opponent with the puck !!! This is the moment when I hate EA hockey and I love 2k hockey :)
  • and in real it works exactly the same: when the player has time, he accepts the pass beautifully smoothly and just flips with his feet and is in front of the opponent's gate! But when it has neither place nor time ???? When the opponent is with her and is trying to thwart the pass ???? Then none of this ever looks so nice, but the player tries to process the puck in any way. When I put it into the logic of the game: if the player is not alone, just turn off the script and turn it on until the puck is free for both players in the same way. in my opinion, this is the best solution to make the game look real and at the same time most faithful.
  • just such a thought. EA can purchase any engine license. so why does he use frostbite if he is not so good? why is it not possible to make a sports game on the Source engine and create photorealistic sports games? when I play titanfall 2, even though it's not as exciting as doom, it's just 1000x more beautiful graphics! Is it at all possible that EA would not use frostbite for NHL22 and use another engine ??? thanks for the reply DEV.
  • Oslik1000 wrote: »
    just such a thought. EA can purchase any engine license. so why does he use frostbite if he is not so good? why is it not possible to make a sports game on the Source engine and create photorealistic sports games? when I play titanfall 2, even though it's not as exciting as doom, it's just 1000x more beautiful graphics! Is it at all possible that EA would not use frostbite for NHL22 and use another engine ??? thanks for the reply DEV.

    Not a dev but Titanfall 2 was made before EA acquired them completely. As for the Frostbite Engine well it's pretty god awful from so many sources and doesn't seem to translate all that great for game performance and simply just for looks when it comes to sports games.

    As for why they don't use things like Source Engine or Unreal Engine.... it's because they are cheap and rather force their own stuff. Respawn was blessed to not have to use the terrible engine and thus have made 2 amazing games in Apex Legends and Star Wars

  • I really love seeing all the new shot blocking animations that don't cause trips anymore!

    Oh wait...
  • Oslik1000 wrote: »
    just such a thought. EA can purchase any engine license. so why does he use frostbite if he is not so good? why is it not possible to make a sports game on the Source engine and create photorealistic sports games? when I play titanfall 2, even though it's not as exciting as doom, it's just 1000x more beautiful graphics! Is it at all possible that EA would not use frostbite for NHL22 and use another engine ??? thanks for the reply DEV.

    Simply licensing another engine won't solve much and will just result in those same developmental tendencies that we've been experiencing since the game went 3d in '97, being applied to a new framework.

    Graphically, NHL has rested on it's laurels because although the environments and atmosphere are rigid and stale, the actual NHL player models themselves - combined with decent real-world animations - are uncanny. They do a great job of filling-in-the-gaps, so to speak, when it comes to the lack of evolution in the graphical department.

    Sure - NHL 19 (maybe '18?) had the update to 4K textures and higher resolution for the Xbox 1 X and PS4 Pro. But that was about it. No improvements to lighting, lack of different camera angles to make the game feel immersive versus repetitive - and a database of animations older than some of the people who play this game.

    The real issue is that a move to a new game engine means pumping TONS of development time in to base, fundamental feature sets and nothing that resembles what we see now. Think back to when the move to next gen happened in NHL 15(?) - it was bare-bones because of a simple transition in architecture.

    Now imagine how bare-bones it would be when you introduce a fundamental change to the engine running the game itself. Everything needs to be rebuilt, not just re-hashed to fit a new architecture - it needs to be completely re-done. And when that happens, things land on the cutting for deemed 'not important' to marketing but maybe 'very important' to fans of the game.









  • jrago73 wrote: »
    Were these changes in the tech test?

    Yes
  • IceLion68
    827 posts Member
    edited September 18
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Interesting info from Ben on reddit:

    I'm too lazy to search. Can you post the link to his reddit please and thanks?

    I actually like what I am reading here. I am curious to see how it plays out in practice. I have been so whipped playing D that I try not to poke check much any more so I cant validate any of this from the tech test...

    It would have been nice if they had released info, even informally here. BEFORE the test so we could have known what to be on the lookout for.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • Just a general side comment:

    Anyone lamenting the lack of the jump to new console technology must have a very short memory

    #NHL15
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • Follisimo wrote: »
    Honestly from reading the Dev comments I think stacking defensive awareness even as a forward is gonna be the best thing all-around.

    Sorry wdym by this. Specifically "stacking"?
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    827 posts Member
    edited September 18
    Oslik1000 wrote: »
    just such a thought. EA can purchase any engine license. so why does he use frostbite if he is not so good? why is it not possible to make a sports game on the Source engine and create photorealistic sports games? when I play titanfall 2, even though it's not as exciting as doom, it's just 1000x more beautiful graphics! Is it at all possible that EA would not use frostbite for NHL22 and use another engine ??? thanks for the reply DEV.

    I *think* I read that the move to Frostbite was a bit of a disaster for FIFA, with regards to converting player animations?

    EDIT

    Also, BioWare has come out publicly to state that it is very complicated and caused them issues on Anthem. There is no way NHL would have gotten to Frostbite without a massive redistribution of talent between teams; which seems unlikely for a game with the player base size of NHL

    BTW Frostbite 3 (current) and IGNITE are pretty much exactly the same age (2013). Seems to me they might need something else at this point.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Interesting info from Ben on reddit:

    I'm too lazy to search. Can you post the link to his reddit please and thanks?

    I actually like what I am reading here. I am curious to see how it plays out in practice. I have been so whipped playing D that I try not to poke check much any more so I cant validate any of this from the tech test...

    It would have been nice if they had released info, even informally here. BEFORE the test so we could have known what to be on the lookout for.

    Ofc my friend... Thats the whole Q&A, Over 200 posts, so I tryed to cherry pick what I liked most.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NHLHUT/comments/iuopyf/nhl_21_qa_with_lead_gameplay_producer_ben_ross/
  • Follisimo
    1029 posts Member
    edited September 18
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    Just a general side comment:

    Anyone lamenting the lack of the jump to new console technology must have a very short memory

    #NHL15

    It was different when it went from the PS360 to PS4XB1 eras as they used different chipsets. Now they use the x86 which is pretty much the PC setup and even the new consoles will be using the same so going from 1 to the other won't cause the same porting problems.
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    Follisimo wrote: »
    Honestly from reading the Dev comments I think stacking defensive awareness even as a forward is gonna be the best thing all-around.

    Sorry wdym by this. Specifically "stacking"?

    Oh I was rambling on about EASHL stuff. I'm a 6s player and it's the only mode that matters to me in the series. So I was thinking from what Ben had said on the reddit. It makes defense awareness seem like a top thing


  • nhl dev from redit
    "It may be more that you felt there should be a bigger penalty to their speed. They definitely don't gain speed. While in defensive skill stick, there isn't an impact to your backskating ability which is already minimized due to skating backwards but when skating forwards, there is a penalty to your top speed potential. With the changes to acceleration to different directions this year, it makes pivot timing more important and you may see that have an impact in the scenarios you were seeing players catch up as well."

    i can not translate this. it is positive or negative for defense play? thx
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