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Let's Talk: NHL 21 Gameplay Trailer

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  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Back to discussing NHL 21.

    I'm surprised no one's posted this but, here are Tougie24's thoughts from a few days ago:



    Very interesting...

    To freeze clip like that and really look for some errors its kinda hard to do if you don't got the whole picture. Need to know(at least) how the last minute played out to get a grip on who's in control. Where's the momentum is headed.

    I only saw that lacrosse goal, and I have to say that seem to be the only option he can do in that situation, if he want to score on the spot.

    And regarding that michigan, im startin to be pretty sure that it want be that (easy) common to see.

    I mean... I agree with Tougie24, the whole "Michigan goal" thing isn't even the problem. The real issue is what the devs put in place to balance it, whether it be AI reactions, animations, etc. And it looks like it was just dropped in there without any thoughts about balance other than it's going to be hard to pull off.

    Maybe those types of super moves could be performed by a limited number of players, like the Ovi on his back goal that could ONLY be done by Ovi and ONLY on a very specific set of circumstances, then yeah. I think it would be neat. But you can probably bet good money this these moves, whether the Crosby bank behind the net, or the McJesus hop-squeeze through the boards or the Michigan, they will all be available to ANY player in the game.

    That's the main problem I see. And you can also be sure that as hard is it may be to pull off, someone will figure out how to do it consistantly and that will break the game. At that point do you think EA will fix it? Just like the "fixed" the LT abuse? Yeah... Don't hold your breath.

    Oh and BTW, Tougie24 isn't just some "rando" Youtuber. He's a Gamechanger. A real one. Keep that in mind before you try to discredit him. As if that should be a reason to in the first place...
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Back to discussing NHL 21.

    I'm surprised no one's posted this but, here are Tougie24's thoughts from a few days ago:



    Very interesting...

    The funny thing is, in these plays where the forward chips the puck around, no defenseman worth his stock doesn't body the man up and ride him out of the play. I see it all the time in roller hockey. A guy comes down, may have the best hands in the world, tries to go through my triangle, I body him, ride him out, play is over. This is adult league roller hockey, btw, not anywhere close to a pro level...but hey, what do I know? Only been playing for 32 years and was an All American 15 years ago. I know nothing about hockey.

    But no, not in Ea hockey. In EA hockey you are required to have a perfect angle, eat a balanced breakfast, set your feet, glide, press the R stick at the perfect time, look both ways before you cross the street, and HOPE you can hit the guy.

    I mean, why does every hit need to be skull crushing? Can we not figure out how to jockey or "play the body"? You know, like actual hockey?

    As I said above, the issue isn't really these moves but the fact that you'll be able to do them with ANYONE on the ice instead of it being possible with a very limited set of players with the actual skill to do them.

    On the other side of the coin, where are the defensive tools to combat these new offensive moves? Goalies don't even react to a Michigan attempt. Defensemen don't react or try to prevent it either. So if you can figure out how to pull it off it's an instant goal with little to no resistance from the other team.

    So much for balance, I guess.
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    TheMajjam wrote: »
    So I was watching some of the 2KHSdev videos and one caught my attention. Don't worry about the blue ice thing, but watch the puck movement and the puck physics. This is one guy spending his time trying to update a decade's old NHL game. I have never seen puck physics like this in any EA NHL game. For as old as the graphics look, this feels like REAL hockey. Player even missed a puck that wasn't in his wheel house instead of the magnet putting him in position to make the shot. The real fans are trying to come as close to hockey as possible, but keep giving us more dekes and hockey bags EA.


    Just an FYI - the puck physics you see in this video were designed and developed by actual software engineers.

    The guy doing this 'mod' simply adjust values within files to change the physics to his liking, combined with a simple texture modification to improve the resolution and get rid of graphical issues like the blue ice.

    So... this guy isn't 'spending his time updating an NHL game' - he's simply adjusting values in a file - just like what you would do with adjusting sliders - just without the nice U.I. and then posting videos to YouTube making claims he's "developing" this game which is a flat-out lie.

    Even if he was just "tweaking" the in-game settings, which a lot of people do in many sports games like MLB the Show or NBA 2K21 to get it to play even MORE sim-like than what the developers of those games give you out of the box, it's still a great undertaking and many people who play those games are really appreciative.

    Back in the NHL 2K days I use to "create" Rosters and Sliders to make the game better. It would take me months. Never did anyone just dismiss what I did. What all of us roster and slider makers did .

    And yet what DJ Neo is doing is a lot more complicated than that. He's taking a console game and creating a mod that makes it play on PC, he's upping the resolution. He's adding newer high res textures. He's re-writing the AI files to change the behavior (not just tweaking sliders). He may not be "creating" the original game, but he IS creating the MOD for it.

    I wish someone could take NHL 19 or NHL 20 and mod it so that we can play it on PC with better gameplay and better graphics. Better rosters.

    I don't get why you show such little respect for him... Well actually I know PERFECTLY well why you belittle him.

    @VeNOM2099

    I remember, vividly, how you used to have VeNOM's slider sets for 2k. Must have been a huge undertaking because it played so good!

    Anyway, I am here to defend you and Neo. People can say what they want and minimize all they please...the fact of the matter is they would be incorrect. The end.

    Hey, I'm just a nobody that did nothing to a game I didn't make. Even though it took me time and effort to do, and the only reason I did it was so that others like me could find as much enjoyment in the game we were playing as I had.

    But apparently that makes us worthless. So... Yeah.

    But thanks anyways! ;)

    I am mystified how this conclusion can be reached about Neo. "He did nothing because he didn't make it originally."

    Given that logic, NHL 04 rebuilt is nothing and the effort is a joke...

    or

    No building is worth anything and those who designed them are a joke because the pyramids were built 4,000 years ago and they are copying and building over the concepts of the ancients...

    or

    Attempts to go to Mars are a joke because we went to the Moon already and they are just copying what has been done before them...

    Absolute lunacy. The funny thing is (and we know why this is being discussed, those of us who are passionate ACTUAL hockey players are NOT allowed to have opinions contrary to "be positive and fairy-tales and rainbows and stuff") there is a hefty disdain for those of us who love the game of hockey and we are not satisfied that this game does NOT incorporate hockey IQ. People can lie to themselves all they want, the truth is you cannot run a left wing lock...a basic, foundational hockey forecheck.

    As Churchill said, "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life."

    Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.
  • The frustrating part for me is that I can set sliders offline that make me play pretty realistic hockey. We all know coming from behind the net and hold RS out and shooting it far side goes in every time for god knows what reason (well, actually we do know the reason. The AI is allergic to applying pressure around their net for some reason and goalie exit their post to stick their plant leg outside of the strong-side post giving up even more net...ok rant over) but if I actually do try to play hockey with my sliders, it’s pretty fun tbh. I get checked off pucks relatively easy with perimeter players, bigger players seem to fare a little better, I’ve managed to get some nice net-front scrambles, nice screen/tip goals, rebound goals that stem from a shot through a screen, and some goalie play that seems pretty realistic and challenging for me when I’m not actively trying to break the game that I claim to want to play.

    Now, imagine being able to run a little vs league with my friends using that slider set? A lot of the AI blunders or shortcomings would be solved by playing a user. Imagine playing a slider set against a user where hockey is rewarded? That’d be awesome imo! The online default tuner values are just awful. I have no interest in playing some unicorn land interpretation of this sport. It’s not hockey, it doesn’t make you play even remotely close to hockey, and you’re at a disadvantage for trying to play real hockey. Give us the ability to play our interpretation of hockey, because the default interpretation of hockey is nothing short of comical lol.

    Also as an offline guy (who again, would be somewhat online if you let me enjoy the game with my friends who actually enjoy the sport and want to try replicating it on the game) the AI seriously hold this game back so much and it’s the same issues time and time again. Caught flat-footed on a rush they saw coming a zone away, being a zone away in the first place, being content with gliding back as the opposing shooter lines up his shot (this is why deking the computer is lame, they struggle to aggressively close down on the puck carrier on rushes in appropriate scenarios which essentially removes the need to deke) not dumping the puck when out of options, not ringing the puck or eating it when in trouble behind their own net (seriously, I’ve scored so many goals off forechecking because of stupid decisions rather than a bad bounce or great read by me) not shooting enough on offense because they rely on their always accurate passes that are always open because the human AI defenders actively open up passing lanes for the other team, giving up huge strong-side stretch passes despite having support in the middle which should give them the confidence/security to contest that pass/play a much tighter gap, first backchecking forward not pressuring the puck carrier making it harder on his D to close the gap and seal off options, not attacking the puck carrier in 2-on-2 scenarios, hyper-aggressive in 2-on-1 scenarios for no reason, hyper-aggressive forecheck (2 hard) when PK’ing, not finishing checks and then subsequently standing still and getting confused when pinching/attacking the carrier who has just moved the puck which opens the door for odd-man rushes/give-n-go plays, playing super passive in the NZ...the list just goes on and on, and I’m really not sold on the improvements seen in the trailer. I made a long post about it already, but it’s definitely not promising.

    Please, for the love of hockey, give us more coaching adjustments or something I can set to mitigate these issues. I don’t doubt dynamic AI is hard to program, so just give me more options. 2k has a great example of a ton of scenarios where you can choose what you’d like your defender to do and we desperately need that I’m this game. It’s too dynamic of a sport so just give us more static adjustments to set in order to get a better AI product. The closer we get to being able to do a lot of things that feel like hockey, the more and more the AI shortcomings will be noticeable.
  • Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

  • Stovetop9620
    455 posts Member
    edited September 23
    Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

    If you believe, for a second, that someone cannot do a better job making a hockey game then I have a nice bridge to sell you.

    It is consistently said here "You guys want total realism". That is not true. Some of us want a game that plays like hockey.

    Hockey is not played skating around aimlessly. You should watch some games sometime.
  • You should watch some games sometime.

    Hey Mods- how is this stuff allowed but I can't tell someone that the clip they share is a showcase of poor skill?

    Obviously I watch hockey. Insinuating I don't is just a ridiculous attack - an unnecessary attack.

    Also - please provide a quote where I said "someone cannot do a better job making a hockey game".

    Go ahead.. I'll wait...
  • Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

    Baseless condescension. You're right though, sorry I made a poor assumption. My bad bro
  • Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

    Baseless condescension. You're right though, sorry I made a poor assumption. My bad bro

    Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?
  • Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

    Baseless condescension. You're right though, sorry I made a poor assumption. My bad bro

    Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?

    Let's be honest... Any of them could....but none of them would ever because they are a small size that isn't worth the investment. Also it's doubtful they would be pleased even then somehow.

    There are very few games that need that simulation to be near spot-on and one of those would be golf.

  • Stovetop9620
    455 posts Member
    edited September 23
    Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

    Baseless condescension. You're right though, sorry I made a poor assumption. My bad bro

    Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?

    NHL 14 had Create-A-Play. Even though there were still AI deficiencies (for clarity, I do not expect anyone on Earth to be able to 100% accurately program hockey AI considering the millions of variables), you could kind of mask them by making your own plays. NHL 14 had a robust community with lobbies and the ability to find a group to play with much easier. NHL 14 did not have super realistic physics in regards to skating. However, the game had FLOW and was pretty fun to play. Incidental contact didn't ruin flow as it does today. The gameplay was not monotonous online. Sure, the short side deke worked too much and there was a few shots that went in too often (notice, we have the same issue in this light 7 years later...that is pretty sad) but there wasn't this clumping meta that is reminiscent of the 1995 New Jersey Devils trap. The modern version online is extremely boring. It is the same entries, the same plays, the same trap, the same game plan almost relentlessly. 2/10 games, maybe, I have been a part of online are "fun" because we had the luxury of not playing against the exploit at all costs crowd that now overwhelms this games online community. Yes, my team can shut down a lot of these players. That is not the point. Winning is not all that matters. It is the journey of a hockey game folks like I enjoy. When it is the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, it gets old really fast. NHL 20 went from finding games easy and within 6 weeks saw a severe drop in people playing. By December, primetime hockey time, it would take upwards of 2-3 minutes to find a game...this is quite the contrast from how it used to be. Pretty indicative of the downward turn.

    So, for starters, my first example is EA Sports NHL 14. They then gutted the game, re-introduced old games modes slowly, and began adding in over the top modes to appease the smaller and smaller amount of people who play this game.

    Next up, as you probably expected, NHL 2k8 and 10. What made these games so good? Well, it wasn't the graphics. It looked like barnyard animals playing hockey. It wasn't the glitz of stupid celebrations that make people look silly. They had a roster/player/slider share that allowed people like Venom to create sliders and things that were downloaded and used by hundreds, if not thousands, of people. They had a commitment to SYSTEMS. You could run legit breakouts, move-ins, cycle plays and it rarely got monotonous. Every single game was different. If you got outshot 45-6 you did not win, ever, no matter what. NHL 20? The majority of games are exactly the same in practice and the variable being who gets lucky/can exploit the game better. That is no bueno. The best part about it was you did not need to be a hockey expert to play it. The game, like NHL 14 had flow. It was Fun.

    So now we have 3 examples of games that have been made that "meet my expectations" made by the only two developers in modern times who made hockey games. One of which is the company's forums we use.

    You may despise me, and I kind of love that, and you may think my standards are too high. You are entitled to that. However, and for clarity, my expectation is extremely simple...make hockey play like hockey. Not pond hockey. Not roller hockey. Hockey. Pretty easy to appease me. Allow me to run a left wing lock even if few teams use it anymore.

    Prime example. In NHL 20 you have the 2-3 forecheck...also known as the LEFT WING LOCK. However, these guys designed this completely backwards. The 2-3 LWL is actually more of a 1-1-3 with the LW cutting off the strong side boards as well as providing support in the event of a turnover. EA, on the other hand, made it a true 2-3 with 2 guys down low aimlessly skating around.

    Show me one example of a time when someone ran the 2-3, forced a turnover down low, and the LW was in proper puck support rather than the LD and LW getting all mixed up and standing, stupidly, in a line.

    Show me one example of a time when the AI in the modern game PROPERLY executed a 3 on 2. A center drive and a man high trailing the play.

    Show me a time where the RW/C properly criss-crossed upon zone entry without having to take an extremely roundabout and exaggerated cut to FORCE the AI to even consider this play. Also known as the overlap. Probably the most basic play in hockey that you learn when you are 10. They have drop pass in the game...what is the point if my AI guys refuse/are unable to criss-cross??? LOL. I could drop pass to Casper the Ghost but I would rather drop pass to my trailing winger to OPEN UP SPACE and get a legit scoring chance that is not the same thing we see every single game.

    Show me the EA NHL AI logic on a 2 on 1 as a defender...we already have seen this. Rather than taking the pass, the Dman is programed to step up and allow a backdoor cross crease? What in the heck is that? That isn't hockey. That is braindead, milk-toast AI.

    The amazing thing is this community (in the most general of terms) is all about scoring and highlight plays. Meanwhile, this game inhibits flow and allows stupid stuff like hustle to destroy any semblance of space. Space being the ultimate scoring aphrodisiac. If, for instance, you could actually utilize space, you would see an influx in variety of scoring. If, for instance, the AI had the ability to run simple, hockey plays you would have BETTER scoring opportunities rather than looping until the short side shot opened up.

    I have no idea how my expectations of what hockey should be are so out of line and off base here. In fact, I am suggesting opening the game up and adding a bit of real plays to help facilitate MORE FUN!

    I do NOT want 100% realism. That is why I play adult league. What I do want is a game that (how it used to be) I could play more than 2 games before saying "meh, I would rather do something else".

    Sure, I could give up and throw in the towel and just say "To heck with it, my passion for hockey and 28 years of LOYALTY to EA means nothing"...but I won't. Everything good in life is worth fighting for. I will never be silenced supporting and encouraging a game I love to get better.

    If that is out of line or not liked by some around here, so be it. As a person who has made a career in customer service and has scored extremely high in customer satisfaction, I know what it takes to work with the people who make you money. The proof is in the numbers. Steadily declining sales figures for this game...that ain't my fault.
    Post edited by Stovetop9620 on
  • Sega82mega
    1883 posts Member
    edited September 23
    Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

    Baseless condescension. You're right though, sorry I made a poor assumption. My bad bro

    Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?

    NHL 14 had Create-A-Play. Even though there were still AI deficiencies (for clarity, I do not expect anyone on Earth to be able to 100% accurately program hockey AI considering the millions of variables), you could kind of mask them by making your own plays. NHL 14 had a robust community with lobbies and the ability to find a group to play with much easier. NHL 14 did not have super realistic physics in regards to skating. However, the game had FLOW and was pretty fun to play. Incidental contact didn't ruin flow as it does today. The gameplay was not monotonous online. Sure, the short side deke worked too much and there was a few shots that went in too often (notice, we have the same issue in this light 7 years later...that is pretty sad) but there wasn't this clumping meta that is reminiscent of the 1995 New Jersey Devils trap. The modern version online is extremely boring. It is the same entries, the same plays, the same trap, the same game plan almost relentlessly. 2/10 games, maybe, I have been a part of online are "fun" because we had the luxury of not playing against the exploit at all costs crowd that now overwhelms this games online community. Yes, my team can shut down a lot of these players. That is not the point. Winning is not all that matters. It is the journey of a hockey game folks like I enjoy. When it is the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, it gets old really fast. NHL 20 went from finding games easy and within 6 weeks saw a severe drop in people playing. By December, primetime hockey time, it would take upwards of 2-3 minutes to find a game...this is quite the contrast from how it used to be. Pretty indicative of the downward turn.

    So, for starters, my first example is EA Sports NHL 14. They then gutted the game, re-introduced old games modes slowly, and began adding in over the top modes to appease the smaller and smaller amount of people who play this game.

    Next up, as you probably expected, NHL 2k8 and 10. What made these games so good? Well, it wasn't the graphics. It looked like barnyard animals playing hockey. It wasn't the glitz of stupid celebrations that make people look silly. They had a roster/player/slider share that allowed people like Venom to create sliders and things that were downloaded and used by hundreds, if not thousands, of people. They had a commitment to SYSTEMS. You could run legit breakouts, move-ins, cycle plays and it rarely got monotonous. Every single game was different. NHL 20? The majority of games are exactly the same in practice and the variable being who gets lucky/can exploit the game better. That is no bueno. The best part about it was you did not need to be a hockey expert to play it. The game, like NHL 14 had flow. It was Fun.

    So now we have 3 examples of games that have been made that "meet my expectations" made by the only two developers in modern times who made hockey games. One of which is the company's forums we use.

    You may despise me, and I kind of love that, and you may think my standards are too high. You are entitled to that. However, and for clarity, my expectation is extremely simple...make hockey play like hockey. Not pond hockey. Not roller hockey. Hockey. Pretty easy to appease me. Allow me to run a left wing lock even if few teams use it anymore.

    Prime example. In NHL 20 you have the 2-3 forecheck...also known as the LEFT WING LOCK. However, these guys designed this completely backwards. The 2-3 LWL is actually more of a 1-1-3 with the LW cutting off the strong side boards as well as providing support in the event of a turnover. EA, on the other hand, made it a true 2-3 with 2 guys down low aimlessly skating around.

    Show me one example of a time when someone ran the 2-3, forced a turnover down low, and the LW was in proper puck support rather than the LD and LW getting all mixed up and standing, stupidly, in a line.

    Show me one example of a time when the AI in the modern game PROPERLY executed a 3 on 2. A center drive and a man high trailing the play.

    Show me a time where the RW/C properly criss-crossed upon zone entry without having to take an extremely roundabout and exaggerated cut to FORCE the AI to even consider this play. Also known as the overlap. Probably the most basic play in hockey that you learn when you are 10. They have drop pass in the game...what is the point if my AI guys refuse/are unable to criss-cross??? LOL. I could drop pass to Casper the Ghost but I would rather drop pass to my trailing winger to OPEN UP SPACE and get a legit scoring chance that is not the same thing we see every single game.

    Show me the EA NHL AI logic on a 2 on 1 as a defender...we already have seen this. Rather than taking the pass, the Dman is programed to step up and allow a backdoor cross crease? What in the heck is that? That isn't hockey. That is braindead, milk-toast AI.

    The amazing thing is this community (in the most general of terms) is all about scoring and highlight plays. Meanwhile, this game inhibits flow and allows stupid stuff like hustle to destroy any semblance of space. Space being the ultimate scoring aphrodisiac. If, for instance, you could actually utilize space, you would see an influx in variety of scoring. If, for instance, the AI had the ability to run simple, hockey plays you would have BETTER scoring opportunities rather than looping until the short side shot opened up.

    I have no idea how my expectations of what hockey should be are so out of line and off base here. In fact, I am suggesting opening the game up and adding a bit of real plays to help facilitate MORE FUN!

    I do NOT want 100% realism. That is why I play adult league. What I do want is a game that (how it used to be) I could play more than 2 games before saying "meh, I would rather do something else".

    Sure, I could give up and throw in the towel and just say "To heck with it, my passion for hockey and 28 years of LOYALTY to EA means nothing"...but I won't. Everything good in life is worth fighting for. I will never be silenced supporting and encouraging a game I love to get better.

    If that is out of line or not liked by some around here, so be it. As a person who has made a career in customer service and has scored extremely high in customer satisfaction, I know what it takes to work with the people who make you money. The proof is in the numbers. Steadily declining sales figures for this game...that ain't my fault.

    Yup, that 'flow' you mention is the key to get it like 'hockey'.

    And there is to many situation's in this serie where the flow completely stop, beacuse some messed up thing.

    I do find that flow now and then, and I go all crazy, almost a tear in my eye. But I do wish this moments could occur more often.
  • Personally, I hope people despise the fact we stand up for actual hockey. We always will. No minimizing, condescension, or belittling will change that.


    EA, 2K.. doesn't matter - not a single developer on planet earth will be able to fully re-create the essence and nuance of a real-world sport to the liking of those who are insanely passionate about said sport.

    Baseless condescension. You're right though, sorry I made a poor assumption. My bad bro

    Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?

    NHL 14 had Create-A-Play. Even though there were still AI deficiencies (for clarity, I do not expect anyone on Earth to be able to 100% accurately program hockey AI considering the millions of variables), you could kind of mask them by making your own plays. NHL 14 had a robust community with lobbies and the ability to find a group to play with much easier. NHL 14 did not have super realistic physics in regards to skating. However, the game had FLOW and was pretty fun to play. Incidental contact didn't ruin flow as it does today. The gameplay was not monotonous online. Sure, the short side deke worked too much and there was a few shots that went in too often (notice, we have the same issue in this light 7 years later...that is pretty sad) but there wasn't this clumping meta that is reminiscent of the 1995 New Jersey Devils trap. The modern version online is extremely boring. It is the same entries, the same plays, the same trap, the same game plan almost relentlessly. 2/10 games, maybe, I have been a part of online are "fun" because we had the luxury of not playing against the exploit at all costs crowd that now overwhelms this games online community. Yes, my team can shut down a lot of these players. That is not the point. Winning is not all that matters. It is the journey of a hockey game folks like I enjoy. When it is the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, it gets old really fast. NHL 20 went from finding games easy and within 6 weeks saw a severe drop in people playing. By December, primetime hockey time, it would take upwards of 2-3 minutes to find a game...this is quite the contrast from how it used to be. Pretty indicative of the downward turn.

    So, for starters, my first example is EA Sports NHL 14. They then gutted the game, re-introduced old games modes slowly, and began adding in over the top modes to appease the smaller and smaller amount of people who play this game.

    Next up, as you probably expected, NHL 2k8 and 10. What made these games so good? Well, it wasn't the graphics. It looked like barnyard animals playing hockey. It wasn't the glitz of stupid celebrations that make people look silly. They had a roster/player/slider share that allowed people like Venom to create sliders and things that were downloaded and used by hundreds, if not thousands, of people. They had a commitment to SYSTEMS. You could run legit breakouts, move-ins, cycle plays and it rarely got monotonous. Every single game was different. If you got outshot 45-6 you did not win, ever, no matter what. NHL 20? The majority of games are exactly the same in practice and the variable being who gets lucky/can exploit the game better. That is no bueno. The best part about it was you did not need to be a hockey expert to play it. The game, like NHL 14 had flow. It was Fun.

    So now we have 3 examples of games that have been made that "meet my expectations" made by the only two developers in modern times who made hockey games. One of which is the company's forums we use.

    You may despise me, and I kind of love that, and you may think my standards are too high. You are entitled to that. However, and for clarity, my expectation is extremely simple...make hockey play like hockey. Not pond hockey. Not roller hockey. Hockey. Pretty easy to appease me. Allow me to run a left wing lock even if few teams use it anymore.

    Prime example. In NHL 20 you have the 2-3 forecheck...also known as the LEFT WING LOCK. However, these guys designed this completely backwards. The 2-3 LWL is actually more of a 1-1-3 with the LW cutting off the strong side boards as well as providing support in the event of a turnover. EA, on the other hand, made it a true 2-3 with 2 guys down low aimlessly skating around.

    Show me one example of a time when someone ran the 2-3, forced a turnover down low, and the LW was in proper puck support rather than the LD and LW getting all mixed up and standing, stupidly, in a line.

    Show me one example of a time when the AI in the modern game PROPERLY executed a 3 on 2. A center drive and a man high trailing the play.

    Show me a time where the RW/C properly criss-crossed upon zone entry without having to take an extremely roundabout and exaggerated cut to FORCE the AI to even consider this play. Also known as the overlap. Probably the most basic play in hockey that you learn when you are 10. They have drop pass in the game...what is the point if my AI guys refuse/are unable to criss-cross??? LOL. I could drop pass to Casper the Ghost but I would rather drop pass to my trailing winger to OPEN UP SPACE and get a legit scoring chance that is not the same thing we see every single game.

    Show me the EA NHL AI logic on a 2 on 1 as a defender...we already have seen this. Rather than taking the pass, the Dman is programed to step up and allow a backdoor cross crease? What in the heck is that? That isn't hockey. That is braindead, milk-toast AI.

    The amazing thing is this community (in the most general of terms) is all about scoring and highlight plays. Meanwhile, this game inhibits flow and allows stupid stuff like hustle to destroy any semblance of space. Space being the ultimate scoring aphrodisiac. If, for instance, you could actually utilize space, you would see an influx in variety of scoring. If, for instance, the AI had the ability to run simple, hockey plays you would have BETTER scoring opportunities rather than looping until the short side shot opened up.

    I have no idea how my expectations of what hockey should be are so out of line and off base here. In fact, I am suggesting opening the game up and adding a bit of real plays to help facilitate MORE FUN!

    I do NOT want 100% realism. That is why I play adult league. What I do want is a game that (how it used to be) I could play more than 2 games before saying "meh, I would rather do something else".

    Sure, I could give up and throw in the towel and just say "To heck with it, my passion for hockey and 28 years of LOYALTY to EA means nothing"...but I won't. Everything good in life is worth fighting for. I will never be silenced supporting and encouraging a game I love to get better.

    If that is out of line or not liked by some around here, so be it. As a person who has made a career in customer service and has scored extremely high in customer satisfaction, I know what it takes to work with the people who make you money. The proof is in the numbers. Steadily declining sales figures for this game...that ain't my fault.

    I hear you brother
  • @Sega82mega

    Imagine that flow in the neutral zone. You hit your first pass, the supporting winger overlaps in front, make another pass, a criss-cross over the line, drop pass, open up space backing off the dman, your trailing defender engages, cross ice pass, slap shot.

    That is expectation.

    Reality is, you play against the typical CHELLLL BRAAAHHH, he makes one pass, skates as fast as possible up the wing, holds his stick out, loops 15 times, you finally get bored and attack, he ballerina twirls around you, shoots high short side for the 28th time that game.

    The above would actually be more fun and exciting. I know nothing though. Everything I know about hockey, flow, puck support, movement means nothing.

    Quiet, Stovetop, I am trying to run my boring system here!
  • @Sega82mega

    Imagine that flow in the neutral zone. You hit your first pass, the supporting winger overlaps in front, make another pass, a criss-cross over the line, drop pass, open up space backing off the dman, your trailing defender engages, cross ice pass, slap shot.

    That is expectation.

    Reality is, you play against the typical CHELLLL BRAAAHHH, he makes one pass, skates as fast as possible up the wing, holds his stick out, loops 15 times, you finally get bored and attack, he ballerina twirls around you, shoots high short side for the 28th time that game.

    The above would actually be more fun and exciting. I know nothing though. Everything I know about hockey, flow, puck support, movement means nothing.

    Quiet, Stovetop, I am trying to run my boring system here!

    Hehe the first one gives me the chills, the second one, not so much!
  • @KidShowtime1867

    Anxiously awaiting your response, buddy. I gave you what you wanted. Let's have a fun debate. I am really interested to hear your opinion. Perhaps there can be some sort of compromise? Maybe even understanding?
  • I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.
  • FloundinatorQQ
    82 posts Member
    edited September 24
    I heard nasher say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...
    Post edited by FloundinatorQQ on
  • I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    It will be interesting to hear what you have to say, as always, but I do bealive you going to see improvements. Question is, how much... And will it be enough.
  • @KidShowtime1867

    Anxiously awaiting your response, buddy. I gave you what you wanted. Let's have a fun debate. I am really interested to hear your opinion. Perhaps there can be some sort of compromise? Maybe even understanding?

    Am I supposed to give my opinion on your explanation of how hockey works or something?

    I'm confused.
  • Stovetop9620
    455 posts Member
    edited September 23
    @KidShowtime1867

    Anxiously awaiting your response, buddy. I gave you what you wanted. Let's have a fun debate. I am really interested to hear your opinion. Perhaps there can be some sort of compromise? Maybe even understanding?

    Am I supposed to give my opinion on your explanation of how hockey works or something?

    I'm confused.

    @KidShowtime1867

    No no. You asked above: "Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?"

    I responded https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/discussion/comment/2156531/#Comment_2156531. I am very curious to hear your opinion. We can at least try to have a reasonable conversation. I would actually be willing to bet understanding would come of such a thing.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited September 23
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.
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