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Let's Talk: NHL 21 Gameplay Trailer

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  • @KidShowtime1867

    Anxiously awaiting your response, buddy. I gave you what you wanted. Let's have a fun debate. I am really interested to hear your opinion. Perhaps there can be some sort of compromise? Maybe even understanding?

    Am I supposed to give my opinion on your explanation of how hockey works or something?

    I'm confused.

    No no. You asked above: "Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?"

    I responded https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/discussion/comment/2156531/#Comment_2156531. I am very curious to hear your opinion. We can at least try to have a reasonable conversation. I would actually be willing to bet understanding would come of such a thing.

    Your expectation is a hockey game that plays like hockey. It's not a revolutionary idea and I'm not sure what else is to be discussed?

    You go on and on about strategies and A.I. - like we know these are currently limited in EA's games. You have to learn to work with it.

    I see a lot of people unwilling to work with it because, some times, it acts chaotic. I don't get the line of thinking that when the A.I. makes a mistake that it's entirely Ea's fault - the A.I. monitors human inputs and adjusts accordingly - making you somewhat responsible for what the A.I. does.



  • @KidShowtime1867

    Anxiously awaiting your response, buddy. I gave you what you wanted. Let's have a fun debate. I am really interested to hear your opinion. Perhaps there can be some sort of compromise? Maybe even understanding?

    Am I supposed to give my opinion on your explanation of how hockey works or something?

    I'm confused.

    No no. You asked above: "Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?"

    I responded https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/discussion/comment/2156531/#Comment_2156531. I am very curious to hear your opinion. We can at least try to have a reasonable conversation. I would actually be willing to bet understanding would come of such a thing.

    Your expectation is a hockey game that plays like hockey. It's not a revolutionary idea and I'm not sure what else is to be discussed?

    You go on and on about strategies and A.I. - like we know these are currently limited in EA's games. You have to learn to work with it.

    I see a lot of people unwilling to work with it because, some times, it acts chaotic. I don't get the line of thinking that when the A.I. makes a mistake that it's entirely Ea's fault - the A.I. monitors human inputs and adjusts accordingly - making you somewhat responsible for what the A.I. does.



    So then the ultimate question is how and why is my request so troubling for you? Why do you repeatedly go out of your way to attack those of us who are extremely dissatisfied? Why do you offer such condescension in your responses towards others who share my passion for this game?

    You made a stink up there about no developer ever meeting my expectation and I provided you with what I consider to be a thought out response demonstrating my expectations have been met, even by EA, and now nothing can be discussed? This is not how discourse works.
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    It will be interesting to hear what you have to say, as always, but I do bealive you going to see improvements. Question is, how much... And will it be enough.

    I think it’ll be a marginal improvement but not one bug enough to warrant buying the game and recreating my 40-team league for. That’s my guy feeling.
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    You know me, never not prepared for that. I’m just genuinely curious to see if my initial reaction (tearing apart the alleged improved AI in the trailer earlier in this thread) is right lol.
  • @KidShowtime1867

    Anxiously awaiting your response, buddy. I gave you what you wanted. Let's have a fun debate. I am really interested to hear your opinion. Perhaps there can be some sort of compromise? Maybe even understanding?

    Am I supposed to give my opinion on your explanation of how hockey works or something?

    I'm confused.

    No no. You asked above: "Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?"

    I responded https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/discussion/comment/2156531/#Comment_2156531. I am very curious to hear your opinion. We can at least try to have a reasonable conversation. I would actually be willing to bet understanding would come of such a thing.

    Your expectation is a hockey game that plays like hockey. It's not a revolutionary idea and I'm not sure what else is to be discussed?

    You go on and on about strategies and A.I. - like we know these are currently limited in EA's games. You have to learn to work with it.

    I see a lot of people unwilling to work with it because, some times, it acts chaotic. I don't get the line of thinking that when the A.I. makes a mistake that it's entirely Ea's fault - the A.I. monitors human inputs and adjusts accordingly - making you somewhat responsible for what the A.I. does.



    So then the ultimate question is how and why is my request so troubling for you? Why do you repeatedly go out of your way to attack those of us who are extremely dissatisfied? Why do you offer such condescension in your responses towards others who share my passion for this game?

    You made a stink up there about no developer ever meeting my expectation and I provided you with what I consider to be a thought out response demonstrating my expectations have been met, even by EA, and now nothing can be discussed? This is not how discourse works.

    I’m sorry you feel that way. I apologize
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited September 23
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    It will be interesting to hear what you have to say, as always, but I do bealive you going to see improvements. Question is, how much... And will it be enough.

    I think it’ll be a marginal improvement but not one bug enough to warrant buying the game and recreating my 40-team league for. That’s my guy feeling.
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    You know me, never not prepared for that. I’m just genuinely curious to see if my initial reaction (tearing apart the alleged improved AI in the trailer earlier in this thread) is right lol.

    Did you see Tougie24's reaction to that video? I mean... He tried to play it off later in another video he posted that maybe he was too critical as someone (EA?) had told him that the trailer was probably done at the ROOKIE difficulty.

    Makes perfect sense, right? Big company like EA, touting how the AI is many times improved, in a GAMEPLAY deep-dive breakdown, by turning the difficulty down to it's LOWEST LEVEL and turning AI into mush brained 1 celled critters... Actually I think I just insulted 1 celled critters with that remark.

    I'll buy that for a Dollar!
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    It will be interesting to hear what you have to say, as always, but I do bealive you going to see improvements. Question is, how much... And will it be enough.

    I think it’ll be a marginal improvement but not one bug enough to warrant buying the game and recreating my 40-team league for. That’s my guy feeling.
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    You know me, never not prepared for that. I’m just genuinely curious to see if my initial reaction (tearing apart the alleged improved AI in the trailer earlier in this thread) is right lol.

    Did you see Tougie24's reaction to that video? I mean... He tried to play it off later in another video he posted that maybe he was too critical as someone (EA?) had told him that the trailer was probably done at the ROOKIE difficulty.

    Makes perfect sense, right? Big company like EA, touting how the AI is many times improved, in a GAMEPLAY deep-dive breakdown, by turning the difficulty down to it's LOWEST LEVEL and turning AI into mush brained 1 celled critters... Actually I think I just insulted 1 celled critters with that remark.

    I'll buy that for a Dollar!

    I have re-watched that deep dive quite a bit. The simplest thing for dmen would be having AI guys play the body and ride guys off the puck instead of someone chipping it by? Like what? They get beat like 8 year old's. Some sort of jostle/body battle system would make things a bit better. It has been an entire console generation and the AI is so very similar to it how it was 7 years ago. They spent so much time worrying about these odd "realism" things and spent little time forgetting that nonsense to make the game play better.
  • @KidShowtime1867

    Anxiously awaiting your response, buddy. I gave you what you wanted. Let's have a fun debate. I am really interested to hear your opinion. Perhaps there can be some sort of compromise? Maybe even understanding?

    Am I supposed to give my opinion on your explanation of how hockey works or something?

    I'm confused.

    No no. You asked above: "Which gaming company could make a game that fits your expectations, and what evidence do you have that can show said company can pull it off?"

    I responded https://forums.ea.com/en/nhl/discussion/comment/2156531/#Comment_2156531. I am very curious to hear your opinion. We can at least try to have a reasonable conversation. I would actually be willing to bet understanding would come of such a thing.

    Your expectation is a hockey game that plays like hockey. It's not a revolutionary idea and I'm not sure what else is to be discussed?

    You go on and on about strategies and A.I. - like we know these are currently limited in EA's games. You have to learn to work with it.

    I see a lot of people unwilling to work with it because, some times, it acts chaotic. I don't get the line of thinking that when the A.I. makes a mistake that it's entirely Ea's fault - the A.I. monitors human inputs and adjusts accordingly - making you somewhat responsible for what the A.I. does.



    I’d buy this argument if five computer players played a fundamentally average game of hockey but they don’t. They constantly commit self-defeating blunders and get confused as to who should pressure a puck in many scenarios. They actively back away from the puck carrier in 2-on-2 rushes, they pass into their own slot/attempt to skate the puck out of a heavy forecheck through their own slot rather than just eating the puck, ringing it, or using their d partner on their breakouts. They always give up the long strong-side stretch pass even when playing a trap with support. They literally skate board to board twice sometimes thrice in the neutral zone rather than actually passing or dumping all of the time. They flip dump the puck out of play on dump-ins all of the time. They actively skate away from opponents in their own slot, they pressure two super hard into the ozone on the PK even if you have easily listed possession and will easily beat the FC. They will literally stand still and watch you walk out from behind the net and score far side every single time if you want because despite being on “collapsing” they won’t actually collapse and help in that scenario. They will however sprint from the weakside point to the strong side point even if the strong side wing isn’t beat. If the strong-side wing gets beat early enough, nobody will help, they’ll just let the guy walk all the way in and pick a corner despite being on “puck side attack”.

    So yeah, there’s no consistency to their game or decision making. Terrible threat awareness, dump when they shouldn’t, carry when they shouldn’t, and are just generally not very smart about much of anything. You really do need to force yourself to play hockey offline to enjoy the game, because the AI is simply so exploitable and dull.

    I get that we want to pretend this is a mostly user issue, but every single problem I just mentioned has to do with my AI opponents, I haven’t even touched my own team yet. Besides, it’s been proven time and time again that user positioning means nothing to the AI because they clearly have a very precise and strict definition of “position” and will instantly sprint away from their assignment to “help” you “cover” for the position you’re allegedly out of despite still being between the carrier and your net. 1-4 trap is still broken, umbrella is broken, breakouts are broken, all things that have nothing to do with user positioning.

    The AI is egregiously behind many of the technical features of this game. There’s really no justifying it or hiding anymore. It’s too blatant.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game

    Consistent gameplay isn't something they want. Randomness is a key thing that makes the experiences unique. People used to complain back in the PS360 era that the same things always happened so they went out of their way to make random things happen.

  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited September 24
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game

    To be honest, even if I would play NHL 21, it would annoy me to no end if people attempt it every game. Which is 1000% going to happen. Even if they score on every 200th attempt, just the fact that I would have to cope watching the stupid Michigan goal animation over and over and over and over, every game would drive me insane.

    Trust me, that's what's going to happen. Give users an easy way to do the move and it's going to be attempted all game long, every chance they get until they score with it. Because the Defense has no tools to deal with it. The goalies have no tools to deal with it. It's gonna be a nightmare...
  • But by Consistent gameplay I think he mean the ground basic things, like the feeling of control over your players, shots, pokes, DSS, hits, the physics, that kinda stuff.. Maybe call it, consistent randomness..
  • Follisimo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game

    Consistent gameplay isn't something they want. Randomness is a key thing that makes the experiences unique. People used to complain back in the PS360 era that the same things always happened so they went out of their way to make random things happen.

    I find this funny because they like to preach about “skill gaps” and how they’re not actively trying to remove them, yet here you are claiming they do want randomness which would make every post about ridiculously one-sided games ending up the wrong side on the scoreboard more valid than ever.

    Are you suggesting this game is made form the perspectives of people who believe hockey is “random”? Not that you believe this, but it does sound like you believe someone believes this to be true and wants that to shine in this game, so I’m just hypothetically speaking now. There’s definitely some randomness, but it’s where the “you create your own luck” sting comes from, and it’s one that should probably exist in a game that wants to claim it has a skill gap and that nice plays are rewarded and that there’s a rhyme or reason to consistient success that’s based in reality. You can put yourself in a position to succeed or make a read that sets you up for at least moderate success a lot of the time, not saying you will, but you can put yourself in those positions with your own free will and knowledge of the game. Obviously IRL, the precise execution to capitalize on those opportunities is extremely high which yields low success rates, but getting yourself into the position to succeed is not random.

    The following isn’t directed at you, I’m just inspired right now so I’m continuing with my thoughts.

    In this game, slowly gliding diagonally from the blueline then shooting to the far side corner makes the goalies look like they were just trying to telescope and laterally adjust to a full speed McDavid who placed one in the upper corner on the move. See, if someone did that, I’d be totally okay with it. That’s a heck of a play from a superstar! Slowly gliding at the top of the circle, especially with EA’s poke “spam” (otherwise known as, one well timed poke) combat measures this year which prevents appropriately active sticks, is not a skilled play, it is not a position that would yield high results IRL, and it’s actually nothing short of ridiculous if they’re claiming to even remotely try to replicate NHL hockey.

    I don’t get why gliding/barely moving makes it harder on goalies to make saves. It doesn’t matter if the shot is well-placed if you’re not moving from far away. I’m set, my angle is on, depth is good, you’re not beating me lol. I mean, I’m a goalie, please stop moving your feet above the top of the circles, I will make that save 99/100 times, even against D1 shooters, as I’m not forced to change my angle or depth due to how far out you are, and due to the fact that I’m above the age of 10 so my reactions are good enough to make a save on a stationary shooter from that far away.

    These are the things that drive hockey fans nuts. You could easily have the same “skill gap” in shooting by rewarding quick passing plays and catching goalies while they’re being forced to change depth/angle. But no no, the tic-tac-toe play (high-low-mid) that you see every modern PowerPlay run is a routine save for the AI goalie in EASHL but god forbid someone slowly gliding from the tops of the circle is given the opportunity to shoot. Very dangerous, much immersion, humongous gap of skill!! Next, I know it’s a little silly to complain about 2-on-0 goals, but I can’t stand watching the AI goalie challenge me like 5 feet out of the crease on the puck carrier. A 2-on-0 that only uses one pass should honestly be saved at an incredibly high rate because ever goalie in the world is anticipating at least one pass on a 2-on-0. If two passes has a 100% success rate, I honestly wouldn’t care because it is a video game after all. Just seems odd that such a blatant miss play that happens all of the time offline and in 3v3 modes takes an actually insulting lack of skill to execute. Again, just one of those “image” things that probably needs changing if you’re going to claim that you want and strive to have a challenging skill gap.

    As I wrap it up here, I’d like to remind everyone that there is, at minimum, 23 rostered NHL players (including 2 goalies) in Vancouver most of the year. Is it that hard to get even a single NHL goalie to come in and answer questions like “do players from the tops of the circle or higher who are slowly gliding and have no screen to use dangerous?” Or “on an odd-man rush, do you leave your crease by 4-5 feet to ensure any pass that gets through is an automatic goal?” How about “on breakaways, do you go down then somehow magically slide side-to-side like a bubble hockey goalie?” I’d really like to know this one “if a guy is coming down his strong-side then attempts a backhanded one-hand Finnish while you have a defender guarding the weakside lane, would you simply just glue yourself to the post and let the puck roll in like you’ve never played a single game of goalie?” Because I’ve watched and played enough EA hockey to see that these are some of more common scenarios that result in goals so it’d be nice to hear the opinions from a professional. Maybe even ask some either/or questions like “would you rather face a shot from the tops of the circle from a slowly drifting shooter, or would you like to face full speed Connor McDavid shooting at near full speed while moving diagonally/laterally?” Or “would you rather stay completely set to make a save or would you like to make an aggressive lateral movement before your save?” Penalty shots are a hot topic here, maybe ask them “would you rather face a move like Kane with lots of quick puck movement and angle changes, or some guy literally sprinting full speed at you who lifts his leg like he’s found a fire hydrant then just keeps skating the same way?” I’m just really wanting to see where a pro, or even just any goalie ever for that matter, provide some insight on the position and where they think some skill gap improvements or changes could be made due to their experience. We all want a skill gap right? We all like hockey right? Probably wouldn’t hurt to make the skill gap in an NHL licensed game to revolve around make semi-realistic hickey plays right! Just a thought, you know? For example, I can jack 3’s up all day with Russell Westbrook in 2k, teams will probably encourage it, but I probably won’t have a great time right? I’m just trying to see this game go in that direction a little more, so I really hope we can get those answers from markstrom or demko if they have a spare 5 minutes.

    On that note, I’d like to offer my services if they can’t get markstrom or demko to answer these incredibly challenging questions, as I too have played the position a handful of times. I really think I could help take this game to the next level by offering all of the rudimentary goalie knowledge I possess. Free of charge (and I’m usually $20/hour where I’m from for goalie advice which isn’t much but you know, more than nothing) I will help EA determine what plays, shots, scenarios we should encourage users to strive for in order to have success in shooting.

    I just want changes and the skill gap to Mae sense and be fun. Let me help, please! Or venom! Or literally any goalie ever...just please, for all that is holy, for the hockey gods, and for all the goalies out there, please take a new approach as to how your reward shooting and what shots get rewarded.
  • Sega82mega
    1553 posts Member
    edited September 24
    I think its too easy to get to the dangerous spots on ice, simply by enough speed and a pass from the D to one of the winger, this is a really good initial position for a great opportunity to score...

    But say that you would like to keep it more real, set up your play from start, move the puck between your D's a couple of time, for your forwards to find some room in the neutral zone, 2-3 pass later you enter the O-zone with full control, take the puck deep to the corner, whole team is set up, start cycling around the puck, D to D, down to the LW, that takes cover behind the net, looking for a chance, find a open spot infront of the net, Boom, top corner!

    To get that done, it takes alot of practice, but to turn away from the play with your D over and over, untill you finaly go for a super charge pass, off to the winger that skate for all that he's worth as near as the board he can get in the O-zone corner, turn 180°, and then either go for shortside, 1timer at the slot, or back to D for a D to D 1timer or for the defender to take some space and go for a slapper, this scenario is much more easy, successful, and even more hard to defend against, all tough you know its coming.

    I wish it would be worth it, to play a much more advanced O-zone hockey, so people had to try at least.
  • Follisimo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game

    Consistent gameplay isn't something they want. Randomness is a key thing that makes the experiences unique. People used to complain back in the PS360 era that the same things always happened so they went out of their way to make random things happen.

    I find this funny because they like to preach about “skill gaps” and how they’re not actively trying to remove them, yet here you are claiming they do want randomness which would make every post about ridiculously one-sided games ending up the wrong side on the scoreboard more valid than ever.

    Are you suggesting this game is made form the perspectives of people who believe hockey is “random”? Not that you believe this, but it does sound like you believe someone believes this to be true and wants that to shine in this game, so I’m just hypothetically speaking now. There’s definitely some randomness, but it’s where the “you create your own luck” sting comes from, and it’s one that should probably exist in a game that wants to claim it has a skill gap and that nice plays are rewarded and that there’s a rhyme or reason to consistient success that’s based in reality. You can put yourself in a position to succeed or make a read that sets you up for at least moderate success a lot of the time, not saying you will, but you can put yourself in those positions with your own free will and knowledge of the game. Obviously IRL, the precise execution to capitalize on those opportunities is extremely high which yields low success rates, but getting yourself into the position to succeed is not random.

    The following isn’t directed at you, I’m just inspired right now so I’m continuing with my thoughts.

    In this game, slowly gliding diagonally from the blueline then shooting to the far side corner makes the goalies look like they were just trying to telescope and laterally adjust to a full speed McDavid who placed one in the upper corner on the move. See, if someone did that, I’d be totally okay with it. That’s a heck of a play from a superstar! Slowly gliding at the top of the circle, especially with EA’s poke “spam” (otherwise known as, one well timed poke) combat measures this year which prevents appropriately active sticks, is not a skilled play, it is not a position that would yield high results IRL, and it’s actually nothing short of ridiculous if they’re claiming to even remotely try to replicate NHL hockey.

    I don’t get why gliding/barely moving makes it harder on goalies to make saves. It doesn’t matter if the shot is well-placed if you’re not moving from far away. I’m set, my angle is on, depth is good, you’re not beating me lol. I mean, I’m a goalie, please stop moving your feet above the top of the circles, I will make that save 99/100 times, even against D1 shooters, as I’m not forced to change my angle or depth due to how far out you are, and due to the fact that I’m above the age of 10 so my reactions are good enough to make a save on a stationary shooter from that far away.

    These are the things that drive hockey fans nuts. You could easily have the same “skill gap” in shooting by rewarding quick passing plays and catching goalies while they’re being forced to change depth/angle. But no no, the tic-tac-toe play (high-low-mid) that you see every modern PowerPlay run is a routine save for the AI goalie in EASHL but god forbid someone slowly gliding from the tops of the circle is given the opportunity to shoot. Very dangerous, much immersion, humongous gap of skill!! Next, I know it’s a little silly to complain about 2-on-0 goals, but I can’t stand watching the AI goalie challenge me like 5 feet out of the crease on the puck carrier. A 2-on-0 that only uses one pass should honestly be saved at an incredibly high rate because ever goalie in the world is anticipating at least one pass on a 2-on-0. If two passes has a 100% success rate, I honestly wouldn’t care because it is a video game after all. Just seems odd that such a blatant miss play that happens all of the time offline and in 3v3 modes takes an actually insulting lack of skill to execute. Again, just one of those “image” things that probably needs changing if you’re going to claim that you want and strive to have a challenging skill gap.

    As I wrap it up here, I’d like to remind everyone that there is, at minimum, 23 rostered NHL players (including 2 goalies) in Vancouver most of the year. Is it that hard to get even a single NHL goalie to come in and answer questions like “do players from the tops of the circle or higher who are slowly gliding and have no screen to use dangerous?” Or “on an odd-man rush, do you leave your crease by 4-5 feet to ensure any pass that gets through is an automatic goal?” How about “on breakaways, do you go down then somehow magically slide side-to-side like a bubble hockey goalie?” I’d really like to know this one “if a guy is coming down his strong-side then attempts a backhanded one-hand Finnish while you have a defender guarding the weakside lane, would you simply just glue yourself to the post and let the puck roll in like you’ve never played a single game of goalie?” Because I’ve watched and played enough EA hockey to see that these are some of more common scenarios that result in goals so it’d be nice to hear the opinions from a professional. Maybe even ask some either/or questions like “would you rather face a shot from the tops of the circle from a slowly drifting shooter, or would you like to face full speed Connor McDavid shooting at near full speed while moving diagonally/laterally?” Or “would you rather stay completely set to make a save or would you like to make an aggressive lateral movement before your save?” Penalty shots are a hot topic here, maybe ask them “would you rather face a move like Kane with lots of quick puck movement and angle changes, or some guy literally sprinting full speed at you who lifts his leg like he’s found a fire hydrant then just keeps skating the same way?” I’m just really wanting to see where a pro, or even just any goalie ever for that matter, provide some insight on the position and where they think some skill gap improvements or changes could be made due to their experience. We all want a skill gap right? We all like hockey right? Probably wouldn’t hurt to make the skill gap in an NHL licensed game to revolve around make semi-realistic hickey plays right! Just a thought, you know? For example, I can jack 3’s up all day with Russell Westbrook in 2k, teams will probably encourage it, but I probably won’t have a great time right? I’m just trying to see this game go in that direction a little more, so I really hope we can get those answers from markstrom or demko if they have a spare 5 minutes.

    On that note, I’d like to offer my services if they can’t get markstrom or demko to answer these incredibly challenging questions, as I too have played the position a handful of times. I really think I could help take this game to the next level by offering all of the rudimentary goalie knowledge I possess. Free of charge (and I’m usually $20/hour where I’m from for goalie advice which isn’t much but you know, more than nothing) I will help EA determine what plays, shots, scenarios we should encourage users to strive for in order to have success in shooting.

    I just want changes and the skill gap to Mae sense and be fun. Let me help, please! Or venom! Or literally any goalie ever...just please, for all that is holy, for the hockey gods, and for all the goalies out there, please take a new approach as to how your reward shooting and what shots get rewarded.

    Excellent stuff dude, as usual.

    1. I think they misconstrued "randomness". Randomness in puck deflections, rebound trajectories, etc. Not randomness in movement and position. How many times do we see rebounds get pushed right onto an attackers stick? That isn't random at all. It gives people the ILLUSION of DDA when this happens.
    2. I have been saying this for a while now, position, hockey plays, should be consistent and programmed into the game. You should be able to expect certain support plays and breakouts from your players because, well, that is hockey. Breakouts, move-ins, etc. are play based. Sure, there is fluidity in real hockey as far as thinking on the fly but the "plays" your AI guys make are so lame and unnatural.
    3. YES! Stuff like that. We have been told that "setting your feet and gliding" before a shot gives you a better shot. Okay, sure, you should be balanced when you shoot but these elements of "realism" are really dumb. Nobody can control the weight distribution of a video game player with a controller nor should you even have to think about it.
    4. In every hockey camp and instruction I have been a part of there is a coached lesson on this. "The moment you stop moving your feet and "set" is the moment you have given the goalie the perfect situation where he knows you are going to shoot." As a forward in my early years, I was taught feverously to never stop moving my feet before I shoot.
    5. One of those dichotomies that exists in this game that infuriates people.
    6. It is insulting to goaltenders everywhere how bad they represent them in this game. When I started to "git gud" at the age of 15 I saw Peewee/Bantam goaltenders regularly make saves like that.
  • Follisimo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game

    Consistent gameplay isn't something they want. Randomness is a key thing that makes the experiences unique. People used to complain back in the PS360 era that the same things always happened so they went out of their way to make random things happen.

    I find this funny because they like to preach about “skill gaps” and how they’re not actively trying to remove them, yet here you are claiming they do want randomness which would make every post about ridiculously one-sided games ending up the wrong side on the scoreboard more valid than ever.

    Are you suggesting this game is made form the perspectives of people who believe hockey is “random”? Not that you believe this, but it does sound like you believe someone believes this to be true and wants that to shine in this game, so I’m just hypothetically speaking now. There’s definitely some randomness, but it’s where the “you create your own luck” sting comes from, and it’s one that should probably exist in a game that wants to claim it has a skill gap and that nice plays are rewarded and that there’s a rhyme or reason to consistient success that’s based in reality. You can put yourself in a position to succeed or make a read that sets you up for at least moderate success a lot of the time, not saying you will, but you can put yourself in those positions with your own free will and knowledge of the game. Obviously IRL, the precise execution to capitalize on those opportunities is extremely high which yields low success rates, but getting yourself into the position to succeed is not random.

    The following isn’t directed at you, I’m just inspired right now so I’m continuing with my thoughts.

    In this game, slowly gliding diagonally from the blueline then shooting to the far side corner makes the goalies look like they were just trying to telescope and laterally adjust to a full speed McDavid who placed one in the upper corner on the move. See, if someone did that, I’d be totally okay with it. That’s a heck of a play from a superstar! Slowly gliding at the top of the circle, especially with EA’s poke “spam” (otherwise known as, one well timed poke) combat measures this year which prevents appropriately active sticks, is not a skilled play, it is not a position that would yield high results IRL, and it’s actually nothing short of ridiculous if they’re claiming to even remotely try to replicate NHL hockey.

    I don’t get why gliding/barely moving makes it harder on goalies to make saves. It doesn’t matter if the shot is well-placed if you’re not moving from far away. I’m set, my angle is on, depth is good, you’re not beating me lol. I mean, I’m a goalie, please stop moving your feet above the top of the circles, I will make that save 99/100 times, even against D1 shooters, as I’m not forced to change my angle or depth due to how far out you are, and due to the fact that I’m above the age of 10 so my reactions are good enough to make a save on a stationary shooter from that far away.

    These are the things that drive hockey fans nuts. You could easily have the same “skill gap” in shooting by rewarding quick passing plays and catching goalies while they’re being forced to change depth/angle. But no no, the tic-tac-toe play (high-low-mid) that you see every modern PowerPlay run is a routine save for the AI goalie in EASHL but god forbid someone slowly gliding from the tops of the circle is given the opportunity to shoot. Very dangerous, much immersion, humongous gap of skill!! Next, I know it’s a little silly to complain about 2-on-0 goals, but I can’t stand watching the AI goalie challenge me like 5 feet out of the crease on the puck carrier. A 2-on-0 that only uses one pass should honestly be saved at an incredibly high rate because ever goalie in the world is anticipating at least one pass on a 2-on-0. If two passes has a 100% success rate, I honestly wouldn’t care because it is a video game after all. Just seems odd that such a blatant miss play that happens all of the time offline and in 3v3 modes takes an actually insulting lack of skill to execute. Again, just one of those “image” things that probably needs changing if you’re going to claim that you want and strive to have a challenging skill gap.

    As I wrap it up here, I’d like to remind everyone that there is, at minimum, 23 rostered NHL players (including 2 goalies) in Vancouver most of the year. Is it that hard to get even a single NHL goalie to come in and answer questions like “do players from the tops of the circle or higher who are slowly gliding and have no screen to use dangerous?” Or “on an odd-man rush, do you leave your crease by 4-5 feet to ensure any pass that gets through is an automatic goal?” How about “on breakaways, do you go down then somehow magically slide side-to-side like a bubble hockey goalie?” I’d really like to know this one “if a guy is coming down his strong-side then attempts a backhanded one-hand Finnish while you have a defender guarding the weakside lane, would you simply just glue yourself to the post and let the puck roll in like you’ve never played a single game of goalie?” Because I’ve watched and played enough EA hockey to see that these are some of more common scenarios that result in goals so it’d be nice to hear the opinions from a professional. Maybe even ask some either/or questions like “would you rather face a shot from the tops of the circle from a slowly drifting shooter, or would you like to face full speed Connor McDavid shooting at near full speed while moving diagonally/laterally?” Or “would you rather stay completely set to make a save or would you like to make an aggressive lateral movement before your save?” Penalty shots are a hot topic here, maybe ask them “would you rather face a move like Kane with lots of quick puck movement and angle changes, or some guy literally sprinting full speed at you who lifts his leg like he’s found a fire hydrant then just keeps skating the same way?” I’m just really wanting to see where a pro, or even just any goalie ever for that matter, provide some insight on the position and where they think some skill gap improvements or changes could be made due to their experience. We all want a skill gap right? We all like hockey right? Probably wouldn’t hurt to make the skill gap in an NHL licensed game to revolve around make semi-realistic hickey plays right! Just a thought, you know? For example, I can jack 3’s up all day with Russell Westbrook in 2k, teams will probably encourage it, but I probably won’t have a great time right? I’m just trying to see this game go in that direction a little more, so I really hope we can get those answers from markstrom or demko if they have a spare 5 minutes.

    On that note, I’d like to offer my services if they can’t get markstrom or demko to answer these incredibly challenging questions, as I too have played the position a handful of times. I really think I could help take this game to the next level by offering all of the rudimentary goalie knowledge I possess. Free of charge (and I’m usually $20/hour where I’m from for goalie advice which isn’t much but you know, more than nothing) I will help EA determine what plays, shots, scenarios we should encourage users to strive for in order to have success in shooting.

    I just want changes and the skill gap to Mae sense and be fun. Let me help, please! Or venom! Or literally any goalie ever...just please, for all that is holy, for the hockey gods, and for all the goalies out there, please take a new approach as to how your reward shooting and what shots get rewarded.

    Excellent stuff dude, as usual.

    1. I think they misconstrued "randomness". Randomness in puck deflections, rebound trajectories, etc. Not randomness in movement and position. How many times do we see rebounds get pushed right onto an attackers stick? That isn't random at all. It gives people the ILLUSION of DDA when this happens.
    2. I have been saying this for a while now, position, hockey plays, should be consistent and programmed into the game. You should be able to expect certain support plays and breakouts from your players because, well, that is hockey. Breakouts, move-ins, etc. are play based. Sure, there is fluidity in real hockey as far as thinking on the fly but the "plays" your AI guys make are so lame and unnatural.
    3. YES! Stuff like that. We have been told that "setting your feet and gliding" before a shot gives you a better shot. Okay, sure, you should be balanced when you shoot but these elements of "realism" are really dumb. Nobody can control the weight distribution of a video game player with a controller nor should you even have to think about it.
    4. In every hockey camp and instruction I have been a part of there is a coached lesson on this. "The moment you stop moving your feet and "set" is the moment you have given the goalie the perfect situation where he knows you are going to shoot." As a forward in my early years, I was taught feverously to never stop moving my feet before I shoot.
    5. One of those dichotomies that exists in this game that infuriates people.
    6. It is insulting to goaltenders everywhere how bad they represent them in this game. When I started to "git gud" at the age of 15 I saw Peewee/Bantam goaltenders regularly make saves like that.

    Honestly, 2-on-0s are not as hard to stop as 2-on-1’s as goalie. It sounds stupid, but most 2-on-0’s happen really fast and are usually reduced to an abbreviated sheet of ice (usually a NZ turnover at the highest) and you’re obviously pre-loaded to drive across and make at least the save on the 1st pass. 2-on-1’s are actually harder because there’s a D there which slows the plan down naturally + if that pass gets through and I’m not expecting it too, I’m not pre-loaded to make a drive towards the weakside.

    People can call me crazy, but they simply haven’t played the position before. There’s actually much more predictability on a 2-on-0 than 2-on-1 yet the goalies in this game treat the non-puck carrier like he literally doesn’t exist.
  • Follisimo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game

    Consistent gameplay isn't something they want. Randomness is a key thing that makes the experiences unique. People used to complain back in the PS360 era that the same things always happened so they went out of their way to make random things happen.

    I find this funny because they like to preach about “skill gaps” and how they’re not actively trying to remove them, yet here you are claiming they do want randomness which would make every post about ridiculously one-sided games ending up the wrong side on the scoreboard more valid than ever.

    Are you suggesting this game is made form the perspectives of people who believe hockey is “random”? Not that you believe this, but it does sound like you believe someone believes this to be true and wants that to shine in this game, so I’m just hypothetically speaking now. There’s definitely some randomness, but it’s where the “you create your own luck” sting comes from, and it’s one that should probably exist in a game that wants to claim it has a skill gap and that nice plays are rewarded and that there’s a rhyme or reason to consistient success that’s based in reality. You can put yourself in a position to succeed or make a read that sets you up for at least moderate success a lot of the time, not saying you will, but you can put yourself in those positions with your own free will and knowledge of the game. Obviously IRL, the precise execution to capitalize on those opportunities is extremely high which yields low success rates, but getting yourself into the position to succeed is not random.

    The following isn’t directed at you, I’m just inspired right now so I’m continuing with my thoughts.

    In this game, slowly gliding diagonally from the blueline then shooting to the far side corner makes the goalies look like they were just trying to telescope and laterally adjust to a full speed McDavid who placed one in the upper corner on the move. See, if someone did that, I’d be totally okay with it. That’s a heck of a play from a superstar! Slowly gliding at the top of the circle, especially with EA’s poke “spam” (otherwise known as, one well timed poke) combat measures this year which prevents appropriately active sticks, is not a skilled play, it is not a position that would yield high results IRL, and it’s actually nothing short of ridiculous if they’re claiming to even remotely try to replicate NHL hockey.

    I don’t get why gliding/barely moving makes it harder on goalies to make saves. It doesn’t matter if the shot is well-placed if you’re not moving from far away. I’m set, my angle is on, depth is good, you’re not beating me lol. I mean, I’m a goalie, please stop moving your feet above the top of the circles, I will make that save 99/100 times, even against D1 shooters, as I’m not forced to change my angle or depth due to how far out you are, and due to the fact that I’m above the age of 10 so my reactions are good enough to make a save on a stationary shooter from that far away.

    These are the things that drive hockey fans nuts. You could easily have the same “skill gap” in shooting by rewarding quick passing plays and catching goalies while they’re being forced to change depth/angle. But no no, the tic-tac-toe play (high-low-mid) that you see every modern PowerPlay run is a routine save for the AI goalie in EASHL but god forbid someone slowly gliding from the tops of the circle is given the opportunity to shoot. Very dangerous, much immersion, humongous gap of skill!! Next, I know it’s a little silly to complain about 2-on-0 goals, but I can’t stand watching the AI goalie challenge me like 5 feet out of the crease on the puck carrier. A 2-on-0 that only uses one pass should honestly be saved at an incredibly high rate because ever goalie in the world is anticipating at least one pass on a 2-on-0. If two passes has a 100% success rate, I honestly wouldn’t care because it is a video game after all. Just seems odd that such a blatant miss play that happens all of the time offline and in 3v3 modes takes an actually insulting lack of skill to execute. Again, just one of those “image” things that probably needs changing if you’re going to claim that you want and strive to have a challenging skill gap.

    As I wrap it up here, I’d like to remind everyone that there is, at minimum, 23 rostered NHL players (including 2 goalies) in Vancouver most of the year. Is it that hard to get even a single NHL goalie to come in and answer questions like “do players from the tops of the circle or higher who are slowly gliding and have no screen to use dangerous?” Or “on an odd-man rush, do you leave your crease by 4-5 feet to ensure any pass that gets through is an automatic goal?” How about “on breakaways, do you go down then somehow magically slide side-to-side like a bubble hockey goalie?” I’d really like to know this one “if a guy is coming down his strong-side then attempts a backhanded one-hand Finnish while you have a defender guarding the weakside lane, would you simply just glue yourself to the post and let the puck roll in like you’ve never played a single game of goalie?” Because I’ve watched and played enough EA hockey to see that these are some of more common scenarios that result in goals so it’d be nice to hear the opinions from a professional. Maybe even ask some either/or questions like “would you rather face a shot from the tops of the circle from a slowly drifting shooter, or would you like to face full speed Connor McDavid shooting at near full speed while moving diagonally/laterally?” Or “would you rather stay completely set to make a save or would you like to make an aggressive lateral movement before your save?” Penalty shots are a hot topic here, maybe ask them “would you rather face a move like Kane with lots of quick puck movement and angle changes, or some guy literally sprinting full speed at you who lifts his leg like he’s found a fire hydrant then just keeps skating the same way?” I’m just really wanting to see where a pro, or even just any goalie ever for that matter, provide some insight on the position and where they think some skill gap improvements or changes could be made due to their experience. We all want a skill gap right? We all like hockey right? Probably wouldn’t hurt to make the skill gap in an NHL licensed game to revolve around make semi-realistic hickey plays right! Just a thought, you know? For example, I can jack 3’s up all day with Russell Westbrook in 2k, teams will probably encourage it, but I probably won’t have a great time right? I’m just trying to see this game go in that direction a little more, so I really hope we can get those answers from markstrom or demko if they have a spare 5 minutes.

    On that note, I’d like to offer my services if they can’t get markstrom or demko to answer these incredibly challenging questions, as I too have played the position a handful of times. I really think I could help take this game to the next level by offering all of the rudimentary goalie knowledge I possess. Free of charge (and I’m usually $20/hour where I’m from for goalie advice which isn’t much but you know, more than nothing) I will help EA determine what plays, shots, scenarios we should encourage users to strive for in order to have success in shooting.

    I just want changes and the skill gap to Mae sense and be fun. Let me help, please! Or venom! Or literally any goalie ever...just please, for all that is holy, for the hockey gods, and for all the goalies out there, please take a new approach as to how your reward shooting and what shots get rewarded.

    Excellent stuff dude, as usual.

    1. I think they misconstrued "randomness". Randomness in puck deflections, rebound trajectories, etc. Not randomness in movement and position. How many times do we see rebounds get pushed right onto an attackers stick? That isn't random at all. It gives people the ILLUSION of DDA when this happens.
    2. I have been saying this for a while now, position, hockey plays, should be consistent and programmed into the game. You should be able to expect certain support plays and breakouts from your players because, well, that is hockey. Breakouts, move-ins, etc. are play based. Sure, there is fluidity in real hockey as far as thinking on the fly but the "plays" your AI guys make are so lame and unnatural.
    3. YES! Stuff like that. We have been told that "setting your feet and gliding" before a shot gives you a better shot. Okay, sure, you should be balanced when you shoot but these elements of "realism" are really dumb. Nobody can control the weight distribution of a video game player with a controller nor should you even have to think about it.
    4. In every hockey camp and instruction I have been a part of there is a coached lesson on this. "The moment you stop moving your feet and "set" is the moment you have given the goalie the perfect situation where he knows you are going to shoot." As a forward in my early years, I was taught feverously to never stop moving my feet before I shoot.
    5. One of those dichotomies that exists in this game that infuriates people.
    6. It is insulting to goaltenders everywhere how bad they represent them in this game. When I started to "git gud" at the age of 15 I saw Peewee/Bantam goaltenders regularly make saves like that.

    Honestly, 2-on-0s are not as hard to stop as 2-on-1’s as goalie. It sounds stupid, but most 2-on-0’s happen really fast and are usually reduced to an abbreviated sheet of ice (usually a NZ turnover at the highest) and you’re obviously pre-loaded to drive across and make at least the save on the 1st pass. 2-on-1’s are actually harder because there’s a D there which slows the plan down naturally + if that pass gets through and I’m not expecting it too, I’m not pre-loaded to make a drive towards the weakside.

    People can call me crazy, but they simply haven’t played the position before. There’s actually much more predictability on a 2-on-0 than 2-on-1 yet the goalies in this game treat the non-puck carrier like he literally doesn’t exist.

    I agree. As a goalie I find it's much more straightforward to deal with a 2 on 0 than a 2 on1 situation.

    If anything, the entire game is programmed to ignore players without the puck. Because those of us who've watched hockey or played it before, know that players without the puck are harmless... right? :neutral:

    Another thing this game does is mix up REALISM and RANDOMNESS. Random is not realism. Realism is not random. The puck suddenly taking a weird bounce off your goalie and deflecting into the net is not realism. Especially if the bounce happens in a way that defies gravity. Random shots going past the goalie is not realism, just because it "may" happen sometimes in real life. Especially when "random" shots going in happens almost every game you play. A player ignoring a puck 2 inches beside him, but the AI who has his back turned can turn his upper body 180° and take possession on his backhand, behind his back is Random and it's NOT realism.

    Like... everything this game does is a contraction piled on top of contradictions of things that are supposed to happen in the actual sport. Hockey is beautiful.

    This game is a mess...
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    Follisimo wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I heard nasjer say in his video, that he'd like to see the Michigan, a little easier to pull off" for the love of God do not make it easier to do. If you really want to pull it off, then spend time practicing it and if you actually pull it off in game, props to you. But do not make it easier to do, or it'll turn out like the one handed tuch in 20...

    I mean, the question is: why put a move like the Michigan into the game if: A) it's going to be impossible to pull off and B) it can be done by anyone?

    If it could only be done by maybe 5-6 players who are ELITE in the NHL in the game? Ok, sure, I'd be down for that because then it's like a great reward for trying something special.

    But if anyone can do it, then YES, it needs to be impossible to do. But then again, why put it into the game at that point. Doesn't make sense...

    You remember the "Honey Dip" dunk by Vince Carter? Do you know it's possible to do in NBA 2K, but it's EXTREMELY rare to pull off? Like you'll do THOUSANDS of Dunks before you even see the animation and only with the players who have the correct builds and stats and only during certain special dunk situations. And you know what, that's how it should be. Because when it happens, it's special.
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    Ooooooh... Prepare to be disapointed.

    I just don't want to see it abused like the one handed tuck was. Like you said, if they get time and space to attempt it and do it, it'd be special, but to see it every game would be irritating.. idk, im more frustrated at how inconsistent gameplay has been over the year, there are times the gameplay seem fluid, then other games it seems very very broken out of nowhere. I'd like to see consistent gameplay before special goals being added into the game

    Consistent gameplay isn't something they want. Randomness is a key thing that makes the experiences unique. People used to complain back in the PS360 era that the same things always happened so they went out of their way to make random things happen.

    I find this funny because they like to preach about “skill gaps” and how they’re not actively trying to remove them, yet here you are claiming they do want randomness which would make every post about ridiculously one-sided games ending up the wrong side on the scoreboard more valid than ever.

    Are you suggesting this game is made form the perspectives of people who believe hockey is “random”? Not that you believe this, but it does sound like you believe someone believes this to be true and wants that to shine in this game, so I’m just hypothetically speaking now. There’s definitely some randomness, but it’s where the “you create your own luck” sting comes from, and it’s one that should probably exist in a game that wants to claim it has a skill gap and that nice plays are rewarded and that there’s a rhyme or reason to consistient success that’s based in reality. You can put yourself in a position to succeed or make a read that sets you up for at least moderate success a lot of the time, not saying you will, but you can put yourself in those positions with your own free will and knowledge of the game. Obviously IRL, the precise execution to capitalize on those opportunities is extremely high which yields low success rates, but getting yourself into the position to succeed is not random.

    The following isn’t directed at you, I’m just inspired right now so I’m continuing with my thoughts.

    In this game, slowly gliding diagonally from the blueline then shooting to the far side corner makes the goalies look like they were just trying to telescope and laterally adjust to a full speed McDavid who placed one in the upper corner on the move. See, if someone did that, I’d be totally okay with it. That’s a heck of a play from a superstar! Slowly gliding at the top of the circle, especially with EA’s poke “spam” (otherwise known as, one well timed poke) combat measures this year which prevents appropriately active sticks, is not a skilled play, it is not a position that would yield high results IRL, and it’s actually nothing short of ridiculous if they’re claiming to even remotely try to replicate NHL hockey.

    I don’t get why gliding/barely moving makes it harder on goalies to make saves. It doesn’t matter if the shot is well-placed if you’re not moving from far away. I’m set, my angle is on, depth is good, you’re not beating me lol. I mean, I’m a goalie, please stop moving your feet above the top of the circles, I will make that save 99/100 times, even against D1 shooters, as I’m not forced to change my angle or depth due to how far out you are, and due to the fact that I’m above the age of 10 so my reactions are good enough to make a save on a stationary shooter from that far away.

    These are the things that drive hockey fans nuts. You could easily have the same “skill gap” in shooting by rewarding quick passing plays and catching goalies while they’re being forced to change depth/angle. But no no, the tic-tac-toe play (high-low-mid) that you see every modern PowerPlay run is a routine save for the AI goalie in EASHL but god forbid someone slowly gliding from the tops of the circle is given the opportunity to shoot. Very dangerous, much immersion, humongous gap of skill!! Next, I know it’s a little silly to complain about 2-on-0 goals, but I can’t stand watching the AI goalie challenge me like 5 feet out of the crease on the puck carrier. A 2-on-0 that only uses one pass should honestly be saved at an incredibly high rate because ever goalie in the world is anticipating at least one pass on a 2-on-0. If two passes has a 100% success rate, I honestly wouldn’t care because it is a video game after all. Just seems odd that such a blatant miss play that happens all of the time offline and in 3v3 modes takes an actually insulting lack of skill to execute. Again, just one of those “image” things that probably needs changing if you’re going to claim that you want and strive to have a challenging skill gap.

    As I wrap it up here, I’d like to remind everyone that there is, at minimum, 23 rostered NHL players (including 2 goalies) in Vancouver most of the year. Is it that hard to get even a single NHL goalie to come in and answer questions like “do players from the tops of the circle or higher who are slowly gliding and have no screen to use dangerous?” Or “on an odd-man rush, do you leave your crease by 4-5 feet to ensure any pass that gets through is an automatic goal?” How about “on breakaways, do you go down then somehow magically slide side-to-side like a bubble hockey goalie?” I’d really like to know this one “if a guy is coming down his strong-side then attempts a backhanded one-hand Finnish while you have a defender guarding the weakside lane, would you simply just glue yourself to the post and let the puck roll in like you’ve never played a single game of goalie?” Because I’ve watched and played enough EA hockey to see that these are some of more common scenarios that result in goals so it’d be nice to hear the opinions from a professional. Maybe even ask some either/or questions like “would you rather face a shot from the tops of the circle from a slowly drifting shooter, or would you like to face full speed Connor McDavid shooting at near full speed while moving diagonally/laterally?” Or “would you rather stay completely set to make a save or would you like to make an aggressive lateral movement before your save?” Penalty shots are a hot topic here, maybe ask them “would you rather face a move like Kane with lots of quick puck movement and angle changes, or some guy literally sprinting full speed at you who lifts his leg like he’s found a fire hydrant then just keeps skating the same way?” I’m just really wanting to see where a pro, or even just any goalie ever for that matter, provide some insight on the position and where they think some skill gap improvements or changes could be made due to their experience. We all want a skill gap right? We all like hockey right? Probably wouldn’t hurt to make the skill gap in an NHL licensed game to revolve around make semi-realistic hickey plays right! Just a thought, you know? For example, I can jack 3’s up all day with Russell Westbrook in 2k, teams will probably encourage it, but I probably won’t have a great time right? I’m just trying to see this game go in that direction a little more, so I really hope we can get those answers from markstrom or demko if they have a spare 5 minutes.

    On that note, I’d like to offer my services if they can’t get markstrom or demko to answer these incredibly challenging questions, as I too have played the position a handful of times. I really think I could help take this game to the next level by offering all of the rudimentary goalie knowledge I possess. Free of charge (and I’m usually $20/hour where I’m from for goalie advice which isn’t much but you know, more than nothing) I will help EA determine what plays, shots, scenarios we should encourage users to strive for in order to have success in shooting.

    I just want changes and the skill gap to Mae sense and be fun. Let me help, please! Or venom! Or literally any goalie ever...just please, for all that is holy, for the hockey gods, and for all the goalies out there, please take a new approach as to how your reward shooting and what shots get rewarded.

    Excellent stuff dude, as usual.

    1. I think they misconstrued "randomness". Randomness in puck deflections, rebound trajectories, etc. Not randomness in movement and position. How many times do we see rebounds get pushed right onto an attackers stick? That isn't random at all. It gives people the ILLUSION of DDA when this happens.
    2. I have been saying this for a while now, position, hockey plays, should be consistent and programmed into the game. You should be able to expect certain support plays and breakouts from your players because, well, that is hockey. Breakouts, move-ins, etc. are play based. Sure, there is fluidity in real hockey as far as thinking on the fly but the "plays" your AI guys make are so lame and unnatural.
    3. YES! Stuff like that. We have been told that "setting your feet and gliding" before a shot gives you a better shot. Okay, sure, you should be balanced when you shoot but these elements of "realism" are really dumb. Nobody can control the weight distribution of a video game player with a controller nor should you even have to think about it.
    4. In every hockey camp and instruction I have been a part of there is a coached lesson on this. "The moment you stop moving your feet and "set" is the moment you have given the goalie the perfect situation where he knows you are going to shoot." As a forward in my early years, I was taught feverously to never stop moving my feet before I shoot.
    5. One of those dichotomies that exists in this game that infuriates people.
    6. It is insulting to goaltenders everywhere how bad they represent them in this game. When I started to "git gud" at the age of 15 I saw Peewee/Bantam goaltenders regularly make saves like that.

    Honestly, 2-on-0s are not as hard to stop as 2-on-1’s as goalie. It sounds stupid, but most 2-on-0’s happen really fast and are usually reduced to an abbreviated sheet of ice (usually a NZ turnover at the highest) and you’re obviously pre-loaded to drive across and make at least the save on the 1st pass. 2-on-1’s are actually harder because there’s a D there which slows the plan down naturally + if that pass gets through and I’m not expecting it too, I’m not pre-loaded to make a drive towards the weakside.

    People can call me crazy, but they simply haven’t played the position before. There’s actually much more predictability on a 2-on-0 than 2-on-1 yet the goalies in this game treat the non-puck carrier like he literally doesn’t exist.

    I agree. As a goalie I find it's much more straightforward to deal with a 2 on 0 than a 2 on1 situation.

    If anything, the entire game is programmed to ignore players without the puck. Because those of us who've watched hockey or played it before, know that players without the puck are harmless... right? :neutral:

    Another thing this game does is mix up REALISM and RANDOMNESS. Random is not realism. Realism is not random. The puck suddenly taking a weird bounce off your goalie and deflecting into the net is not realism. Especially if the bounce happens in a way that defies gravity. Random shots going past the goalie is not realism, just because it "may" happen sometimes in real life. Especially when "random" shots going in happens almost every game you play. A player ignoring a puck 2 inches beside him, but the AI who has his back turned can turn his upper body 180° and take possession on his backhand, behind his back is Random and it's NOT realism.

    Like... everything this game does is a contraction piled on top of contradictions of things that are supposed to happen in the actual sport. Hockey is beautiful.

    This game is a mess...

    "The man without the puck is the most dangerous man in the play" - some bum
  • I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    AI is not improved. They did change defensman logic for twice. Nothing more. It is not improve. After 5 matches this logic will ruin the game the same as before. Your setting only longer this effect from 5 matches to 10.

    You know this. I know this. Venom know this.... EA devs know this sure better than us from nhl15 was born.

    Some new kids and youtuber's childs does not matter who is defensman on hockey game! It is not important for their mind.

    EA will grow still with HUT&CHEL because it is easier programming 3 players against 3 players. Who need do improve goalie reaction for real? Nobody who want like score 45:35 after each match. It is reason for offensive play HUT&CHEL is the most important.

    I know how actual EA staff is working: 10 peoples doing hut 10 peoples chel. 1 people doing season/dynasty mode if he is not busy with hut/chel support :(
  • Oslik1000 wrote: »
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    AI is not improved. They did change defensman logic for twice. Nothing more. It is not improve. After 5 matches this logic will ruin the game the same as before. Your setting only longer this effect from 5 matches to 10.

    You know this. I know this. Venom know this.... EA devs know this sure better than us from nhl15 was born.

    Some new kids and youtuber's childs does not matter who is defensman on hockey game! It is not important for their mind.

    EA will grow still with HUT&CHEL because it is easier programming 3 players against 3 players. Who need do improve goalie reaction for real? Nobody who want like score 45:35 after each match. It is reason for offensive play HUT&CHEL is the most important.

    I know how actual EA staff is working: 10 peoples doing hut 10 peoples chel. 1 people doing season/dynasty mode if he is not busy with hut/chel support :(

    Didn’t have high hopes, just wanted to confirm my suspicions after watching the trailer. The rush against the caps where “user error” was highlighted showed the CPU teammates literally coming to a complete stop and turning a 3-on-3 with one error into a 2-on-0 so not sure where the improvements are lol. In the NZ, the AI shuts down some really stupid decisions by the user, didn’t actually show them containing a user who is even making the correct hockey play in those scenarios. I just want literally a 10 second clip showing the 1-4 and the cpu teammate not sprinting over to the other side of the ice for no reason, and I’ll actually be convinced that the AI has been fixed lol.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited September 28
    Oslik1000 wrote: »
    I’m just wanting to test the “improved AI” out in the trial. It’s eating at me lol.

    AI is not improved. They did change defensman logic for twice. Nothing more. It is not improve. After 5 matches this logic will ruin the game the same as before. Your setting only longer this effect from 5 matches to 10.

    You know this. I know this. Venom know this.... EA devs know this sure better than us from nhl15 was born.

    Some new kids and youtuber's childs does not matter who is defensman on hockey game! It is not important for their mind.

    EA will grow still with HUT&CHEL because it is easier programming 3 players against 3 players. Who need do improve goalie reaction for real? Nobody who want like score 45:35 after each match. It is reason for offensive play HUT&CHEL is the most important.

    I know how actual EA staff is working: 10 peoples doing hut 10 peoples chel. 1 people doing season/dynasty mode if he is not busy with hut/chel support :(

    Didn’t have high hopes, just wanted to confirm my suspicions after watching the trailer. The rush against the caps where “user error” was highlighted showed the CPU teammates literally coming to a complete stop and turning a 3-on-3 with one error into a 2-on-0 so not sure where the improvements are lol. In the NZ, the AI shuts down some really stupid decisions by the user, didn’t actually show them containing a user who is even making the correct hockey play in those scenarios. I just want literally a 10 second clip showing the 1-4 and the cpu teammate not sprinting over to the other side of the ice for no reason, and I’ll actually be convinced that the AI has been fixed lol.

    I mean, if you want a concise breakdown of the "gameplay" trailer, here you go:



    He pretty much sums up everything we know (and hate) about EA's Hocknite (see what I did there? I fused Hockey and Fortnite together? Because EA)...

    I'm here all week, btw! Try the Veal! ;)

    Jeez... I hate to ragg on this game, but... There's really nothing in there to like. The "improvements" are nice on paper. But then you see them actually NOT being improved with your own eyes.

    It is what it is.

    It's just NOT a good time to be a hockey fan. :(
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