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  • ShadowBurnSB
    65 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    I dont' know much better place to intercept the pass than being in the passing lane? Especially if you're facing the puck? Then seeing it pass under you stick or between your legs is rather depressing.

    Of course it depends on your distance to the passer and receiver. But tell me how is it that the receiver can get the pass without problems, but you who are standing right in front of him and facing the same direction as him, just stand there helplessly and watch? It happens way more often than in 20 for example.

    I have to agree. The interceptions were bad in the technical test and seems like nothing has changed. Last weekend we had 3 people camping the back door pass and it somehow still went through all of us. Not behind or in front. Through. I guess the viable options are to either L1, dive, not let the guy pass or hope and pray that you can tie up or stick lift before the target gets the shot off.
    Casual goalie gameplay: https://t.co/tQnYxAsyKy
  • Problem with the online play is that is encourages players to attack only one way. I know that this is just a videogame iteration of the sport, but at least there should be more other rewarding ways to threat the goal, like in real hockey. It's not like I am constantly failing to intercept the pass to the slot, most of time I do, with well timed player switching. It just right now the defensive gameplay is really monotonous.

    I do like that you can't just try throw bodies and be on the forecheck constantly. In real life you shouldn't put pressure if the opponent is having superior numbers and is having a clear control of the puck. In that situation trap is your friend. I really wish that they would implement more intelligent Forecheck/trap slider. Either the AI should read the situation better or switching the system should be quicker. Maybe behind one button instead of trying to rapidly click the d-pad. IMO setting the slider to "sit back" is close to this, but it is still a bit unpredictable.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1672 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Just my opinion, but I think the angst towards the current state of pass interceptions is based on players still being forced to break the old habit of being a passive defender.

    NHL 20 and previous, you could get away with just being in the passing lane. And although it's not wrong to assume being in the passing lane and facing the puck should be enough - NHL 21 is putting a lot of focus on active defending.

    It opens the play up more knowing that you can't just passively 'be in the lane' without doing something else; using dss to put discourage and/or force the pass to be made at a worse angle than anticipated; using body positioning to take away a one-timer, etc.

    My one issue with the current state of passing is the ability for players of lower skill levels able to force a pass across the slot and scoring. It seems like players can just keep working to force that pass and sometimes they get it. It can be so infuriating to dominate someone just to have them take advantage of one defensive lapse, pull the same-old-same-old forced pass across a bunch of passing lanes to an open, streaking forward who gets behind the A.I. D and puts it home.

    I'd like to see the A.I. do more in front of the net to disrupt the shot in those situations.

    So rather than tune up the ability to passively intercept passes more often, tune the A.I. to be more aggressive to those open players on either side of the slot.



  • Sega82mega
    3310 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Just my opinion, but I think the angst towards the current state of pass interceptions is based on players still being forced to break the old habit of being a passive defender.

    NHL 20 and previous, you could get away with just being in the passing lane. And although it's not wrong to assume being in the passing lane and facing the puck should be enough - NHL 21 is putting a lot of focus on active defending.

    It opens the play up more knowing that you can't just passively 'be in the lane' without doing something else; using dss to put discourage and/or force the pass to be made at a worse angle than anticipated; using body positioning to take away a one-timer, etc.

    Exactly what I was trying to say. And it is good, and I notice it's easier to pass the puck pretty close to forwards that keeps rushing against you without him 'sucking' up the puck.

    And don't switch players so much, concentrate at one guy at the time, I see many people that sacrifice every player, just burn them straight forward, way out of position, of course it's gonna create 'gaps' on the ice for your opponent.

    *And beacuse many go for that pass instead of shots, you should t play man - man against puck carrier, have an eye on he's guys infront of net. But this depend on how your opponent prefer to attack.


  • I'd like to see the A.I. do more in front of the net to disrupt the shot in those situations.

    So rather than tune up the ability to passively intercept passes more often, tune the A.I. to be more aggressive to those open players on either side of the slot.



    Yeah lock 'em up better.. so that option to pass to an open guy didn't remain for such a long time. Movement from one corner to the other by quick puck movement could break up that tie but not if they just keep going up and down at the same side. That should force them to look for another finish.
  • > @Sega82mega said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Exactly what I was trying to say. And it is good, and I notice it's easier to pass the puck pretty close to forwards that keeps rushing against you without him 'sucking' up the puck.
    >
    > And don't switch players so much, concentrate at one guy at the time, I see many people that sacrifice every player, just burn them straight forward, way out of position, of course it's gonna create 'gaps' on the ice for your opponent.

    About player switching. It is quite difficult to forecheck effectively without player switching. I mean you can sort of play just the role of F1, F2 or F3, but skilled opponent can easily break that system with clever passing. Switching the player does not necessarily mean chasing and trying to land a huge hit. What I am doing is to change controllable player after/sametime the opponent passes

    However in the defensive zone I sort of agree. That is because point shots have been nerfed. You can basically just focus on applying pressure down low with your strong side defender or center. With that said I am still switching to the winger to harass the blue line for the juicy breakaway opportunities. Imo it's not that black and white, you can still maintain the structure while still switching player.
  • Sega82mega
    3310 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Zkibu wrote: »
    > @Sega82mega said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Exactly what I was trying to say. And it is good, and I notice it's easier to pass the puck pretty close to forwards that keeps rushing against you without him 'sucking' up the puck.
    >
    > And don't switch players so much, concentrate at one guy at the time, I see many people that sacrifice every player, just burn them straight forward, way out of position, of course it's gonna create 'gaps' on the ice for your opponent.

    About player switching. It is quite difficult to forecheck effectively without player switching. I mean you can sort of play just the role of F1, F2 or F3, but skilled opponent can easily break that system with clever passing. Switching the player does not necessarily mean chasing and trying to land a huge hit. What I am doing is to change controllable player after/sametime the opponent passes

    However in the defensive zone I sort of agree. That is because point shots have been nerfed. You can basically just focus on applying pressure down low with your strong side defender or center. With that said I am still switching to the winger to harass the blue line for the juicy breakaway opportunities. Imo it's not that black and white, you can still maintain the structure while still switching player.

    Skilled players is much better to wait out, let them come to your zone without any hard pressure.

    I hardly forececk, I wait for my opponent to loose the puck.

    I play pretty offensive strategy, I let my AI forececk and I keep myself right behind ready to strike or to move back. But usally AI do the forececk and I do the defense.
  • Well with all respect I disagree. If you have the chance and enough guys, you should never miss the opportunity to forecheck. Skilled or not, the ability to play the puck diminishes if the options are not open. Why should you wait until they get into your zone? Like I said earlier, the forecheck is not about trying to hit everything that moves, instead it is about suffocating. You can achieve that with the player switching.

    Vice versa, if you don't have the chance to forecheck. Then fallback in to the trap.
  • If you have the chance, yes I agree. But not every singel time, and against good players you should be really careful.

    Hockey is about taking advantage of mistake, and by forececking you open up yourself to be punished. If you don't know what you doing, you should be burned.

    That didn't mather too much in previous games, this year, more mind into it.
  • Zkibu wrote: »
    Well with all respect I disagree. If you have the chance and enough guys, you should never miss the opportunity to forecheck. Skilled or not, the ability to play the puck diminishes if the options are not open. Why should you wait until they get into your zone? Like I said earlier, the forecheck is not about trying to hit everything that moves, instead it is about suffocating. You can achieve that with the player switching.

    Vice versa, if you don't have the chance to forecheck. Then fallback in to the trap.


    The current meta that is developing is that you need to hustle back defensively as soon as you lose possession.

    This might be discouraging some people from forechecking because getting just a little too aggressive without forcing a turnover leaves you incredibly susceptible.
  • Sega82mega
    3310 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Zkibu wrote: »
    Well with all respect I disagree. If you have the chance and enough guys, you should never miss the opportunity to forecheck. Skilled or not, the ability to play the puck diminishes if the options are not open. Why should you wait until they get into your zone? Like I said earlier, the forecheck is not about trying to hit everything that moves, instead it is about suffocating. You can achieve that with the player switching.

    Vice versa, if you don't have the chance to forecheck. Then fallback in to the trap.


    The current meta that is developing is that you need to hustle back defensively as soon as you lose possession.

    This might be discouraging some people from forechecking because getting just a little too aggressive without forcing a turnover leaves you incredibly susceptible.

    Yes, 9 out of 10 you need to get back after you lose possession. But it's here you need to know 'exactly' when to push. And when you do, never look back, go for it!
  • Zkibu wrote: »
    Well with all respect I disagree. If you have the chance and enough guys, you should never miss the opportunity to forecheck. Skilled or not, the ability to play the puck diminishes if the options are not open. Why should you wait until they get into your zone? Like I said earlier, the forecheck is not about trying to hit everything that moves, instead it is about suffocating. You can achieve that with the player switching.

    Vice versa, if you don't have the chance to forecheck. Then fallback in to the trap.


    The current meta that is developing is that you need to hustle back defensively as soon as you lose possession.

    This might be discouraging some people from forechecking because getting just a little too aggressive without forcing a turnover leaves you incredibly susceptible.

    as people adjust I think you are going to find that forechecking is incredibly powerful.

    I agree that they seem to be rewarding active defense over passive. Its changed in both ways. After years of whiners complaining how good poke check is they nerfed poke check/dss so that basically they did almost nothing on a passed/shot puck. So most people are trained that if you attempt to do something active to disrupt a pass/shot you will fail, passive is fairly successful. Seems to be the opposite all the sudden. I know against weaker players I've had a lot of success forchecking 1 against 2 or 3. Some times aggressively attacking with body or dss/poke and other times faking that only to fade into the "best passing lanes" and then using dss to just disrupt the pass. But that will only work so much and better players will exploit it. Offensive speed through the neutral zone is crazy fast right now. Every single time I see bad defensemen positioning or even just delays in "getting back" its pretty much a goal.

    wee soo much fun playing defense. spend the entire game on edge waiting for even the slightest imperfection in your positioning and then a turn over and its off to the races for a goal where everyone hates you.
  • > @Sega82mega said:
    > If you have the chance, yes I agree. But not every singel time, and against good players you should be really careful.
    >
    > Hockey is about taking advantage of mistake, and by forececking you open up yourself to be punished. If you don't know what you doing, you should be burned.
    >
    > That didn't mather too much in previous games, this year, more mind into it.

    Never said that you should press constantly. I just implied how to forecheck more effectively when the opportunity arises and where player switching might be very useful tool. It's still not like you have three guys behind opponent's net. Always at least one forward stays high.

    On the other hand you can think about it this way: Good and timely forechecking forces opponent doing mistakes near their own goal. It's much more dangerous than doing a mistake in Offensive zone.
  • Sega82mega
    3310 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    Zkibu wrote: »
    > @Sega82mega said:
    > If you have the chance, yes I agree. But not every singel time, and against good players you should be really careful.
    >
    > Hockey is about taking advantage of mistake, and by forececking you open up yourself to be punished. If you don't know what you doing, you should be burned.
    >
    > That didn't mather too much in previous games, this year, more mind into it.

    Never said that you should press constantly. I just implied how to forecheck more effectively when the opportunity arises and where player switching might be very useful tool. It's still not like you have three guys behind opponent's net. Always at least one forward stays high.

    On the other hand you can think about it this way: Good and timely forechecking forces opponent doing mistakes near their own goal. It's much more dangerous than doing a mistake in Offensive zone.

    Yes I think you are 100%, offens is the best defense. But as you said too, against good players, it's easy to get over-played. Better safe than sorry, maybe....

    But thats whats fun about this game, good defense and good offens is both very importen. Or at least, more importen then earlier.

    I more often find 'skilled' player to be pretty wack when it comes to playing D, probably cause they never really needed it.
  • Sega82mega
    3310 posts Member
    edited October 2020
    a useful rule of thumb is: If you play your LD, move him around a left D's area, if you play with your C, keep him in center of the rink, and so on... And trust your A. I.

    They really deserve some trust in this year game. 😏

    *And the faster you attack the faster you need to defend when you loose the puck. A good reason to slow down maybe.
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Okey, let's get it over with, I know it's never a popular opinion (god forbid) to say anything good about the game, so im gonna try to keep it short.

    If you going to play this game like 20 you gonna be in alot of trouble. You do have to be alot more easy on the gas, (mark my word: just a tip) and push when you get the chance. If you forececk all the time, people gonna have alot of fun with you.

    I played 4 games, not one singel cross crease was put behind my goalie, I did a couple thou, when my opponent's was way of in the defensive play.

    Thats my next point, why people think defense have been nerfed can only mean you didn't play your own defense, if you let your AI play defense, that too, gonna mean trouble for you.

    I could actually play hockey, move around the puck, and if no one bealive me when I say I played real hockey and it work, im happy to show you in a game.

    When people startin to adapt to this years game, it's gonna be 70% more close to hockey then 20 was.

    Easy with patch the game now, let this sink in for a while, then make a move.

    Good work Dev team, it felt better then the test too! 👍

    There you have it!

    Yea, the game is great, tbh.

    People complaining about being burned by their opponents' speed are simply not playing proper defense. I'll get yelled at by the hockey IQ people but playing defense in this game is far more realistic than it was in '20.

    Yes, it can be frustrating to get overtaken by a forward that seemingly has ungodly speed - but the reality is that skilled players know how to generate enough unimpeded movements from the breakout, through the neutral zone to gather speed and momentum.

    NOT recognizing this build-up of speed from the other team's breakout will result in you being burned.

    So, thankfully, defense has not only become more about 'gap control' and 'spacing' and all the things the hockey IQ gods preach about - it's also about something the hockey IQ gods always fail to mention while writing their thesis on their personal views of how to play; you now have to READ the play developing in front of you while simultaneously keeping gap control plus being precise with your Defensive Skill Stick
    - which EA has nailed this year.... please don't cave to the kids who cry about it being "OP"

    I’ve read way more casuals complaining about the pivoting than dedicated hockey fans in my experience. 20 trained them to simply retreat backwards, didn’t require them to read a play or speed, and just play zone defense with maxed out interceptions. I’d agree 21 plays more realistically which I think contributes to why you see so many casuals not able to adapt to those pivot changes.

    To add, It’s crazy how much more realistic and fun defense feels when a small gust of air can’t trip the puck carrier. I haven’t played any 6s yet, but running the smallest possible PMD in 3s has been really fun tbh. Pass interceptions are fine the closer you get to the receiver. I’ve noticed that the more “zone” defense you play, the easier to force the pass which is good to see because it makes the weakside defender truly have to make a decision if his strong-side partner gets beat.

    I like seeing screens actually affect human goalies. Still don’t think they have the snipe ratio completely right, but I guess it’s nice to see human goalies getting punished for sitting really deep.

    The only thing I haven’t loved, and this is from offline play more than online, is the low-speed collisions on the boards. Looks like there’s a decent amount of times where the hit doesn’t even register despite skating into the puck carrier. Definitely weird but obviously not gamebreaking. Also, the big hits along the wall look much smoother which is great to see.

    CPU goalie animations are a lot better. CPU NZ pressure is great and their dzone coverage is definitely better but still completely collapses if you go behind the net. For whatever reason, they can have three guys in the low slot yet still manage to give up a wide open backdoor pass because they all get confused as to who should cover the receiver, who should go at the puck carrier, and who should pick someone else up. If they all literally just stood still, they’d break up the play but they all actively move out the way.

    For the offline player, I see it’s been mentioned but the speed glitch appears to still be there when using sliders. Some games it feels slower like I want, other games it’s revved up completely. Don’t understand why this happens, but it’s unfortunate that we’re going to have to deal with this another year. Overall though, good improvement of the game. Worth a purchase if you’re a dedicated player, probably can hold off if you’re not. This “new game” is pretty comparable to the PES 2021 “season update” where they patched 2020 and sold it for $30, and I’d say that’s a fair price for the medium-playing people if they want to wait a few months.
  • It’s crazy how much more realistic and fun defense feels when a small gust of air can’t trip the puck carrier.

    100%. The word I use to describe the defensive side of the puck this year is 'dynamically chippy'.

    Being laser focused on playing defense is a huge advantage this year and like you said - not being called for tripping as often when poking or using DSS is a subtle change with huge and mostly positive implications.... so far..
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    I dont' know much better place to intercept the pass than being in the passing lane? Especially if you're facing the puck? Then seeing it pass under you stick or between your legs is rather depressing.

    Of course it depends on your distance to the passer and receiver. But tell me how is it that the receiver can get the pass without problems, but you who are standing right in front of him and facing the same direction as him, just stand there helplessly and watch? It happens way more often than in 20 for example.

    All NHL players can intercept a pass if in the passing lane almost all of the time, which is why you rarely see NHL players force passes through sticks and legs.
  • I still haven't found what I should like on nhl21? the game is well controlled, ok. players have more skating animations, probably. the game does not know fouls and is played without exclusions. AI can't stop passing to my defender. The AI ​​cannot prevent the meme from moving from left to right in front of the goalkeeper. AI can't prevent the right from the goal line in front of the goalkeeper. AI can't capture a one-timer pass. AI can't pass to the defenders in the offensive zone and shoot. So what should I love about this game?


    "Arcade goodies are mashed together with NHL 21's legacy issues that span an entire console generation..."
    IGNreview
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    Okey, let's get it over with, I know it's never a popular opinion (god forbid) to say anything good about the game, so im gonna try to keep it short.

    If you going to play this game like 20 you gonna be in alot of trouble. You do have to be alot more easy on the gas, (mark my word: just a tip) and push when you get the chance. If you forececk all the time, people gonna have alot of fun with you.

    I played 4 games, not one singel cross crease was put behind my goalie, I did a couple thou, when my opponent's was way of in the defensive play.

    Thats my next point, why people think defense have been nerfed can only mean you didn't play your own defense, if you let your AI play defense, that too, gonna mean trouble for you.

    I could actually play hockey, move around the puck, and if no one bealive me when I say I played real hockey and it work, im happy to show you in a game.

    When people startin to adapt to this years game, it's gonna be 70% more close to hockey then 20 was.

    Easy with patch the game now, let this sink in for a while, then make a move.

    Good work Dev team, it felt better then the test too! 👍

    There you have it!

    Yea, the game is great, tbh.

    People complaining about being burned by their opponents' speed are simply not playing proper defense. I'll get yelled at by the hockey IQ people but playing defense in this game is far more realistic than it was in '20.

    Yes, it can be frustrating to get overtaken by a forward that seemingly has ungodly speed - but the reality is that skilled players know how to generate enough unimpeded movements from the breakout, through the neutral zone to gather speed and momentum.

    NOT recognizing this build-up of speed from the other team's breakout will result in you being burned.

    So, thankfully, defense has not only become more about 'gap control' and 'spacing' and all the things the hockey IQ gods preach about - it's also about something the hockey IQ gods always fail to mention while writing their thesis on their personal views of how to play; you now have to READ the play developing in front of you while simultaneously keeping gap control plus being precise with your Defensive Skill Stick
    - which EA has nailed this year.... please don't cave to the kids who cry about it being "OP"
    I’ve noticed that the more “zone” defense you play, the easier to force the pass which is good to see because it makes the weakside defender truly have to make a decision if his strong-side partner gets beat..

    Exactly. In 20 I had to put much more pressure on the puck carrier, more or less from he's zone to my zone, but now I always back home in peace and let my AI interfere with him, and they do it pretty good too, they gonna spare me alot of sweat this year.

    Sometimes I forget and fall back in old 20 habits, but if im really concentrated and focus to just shut he's passing lanes off, and keep calm, it's really fun, especially if the opponent do the same and not just run, it gets more a war of opposing positions, were we trade chances.
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