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During the tech test, defense (both human and AI) was in a bad place. Just popping in to see how this is now. Better? Worse?

How is the game in general for WoC?
Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.

Replies

  • No one?
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1601 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    No one?

    Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by "bad place".

    In general, WoC is pretty solid. I've spent more time there this week with my club playing playoffs.

    I mean.. you're always going to have people cry about the cross-crease when they keep turning the puck over in the neutral zone and then wonder why their opponent has more speed than them. It's not necessarily about having better speed, it's about managing your momentum in the breakout/zone entry.


    I don't see a lot of people here on these forums who talk about the importance of passing to players in stride, so as not to impede the momentum/speed they're generating.

    When I hear people say "The other team just blows past us" - this tells me the other team is making passes to players in stride - limiting instances of players having to shift their momentum to cleanly receive a pass (which impedes their speed/momentum) - which results in generating a lot of speed that can burn defenders who don't properly anticipate this.

    Edit: I'd like to add that the importance of doing this (passes without impeding momentum) through the neutral zone is the most important factor in generating speed to burn defenders who aren't anticipating this

    Poke checking is probably going to get nerfed because of kids who get their offence nuked by players who use it appropriately - but as of now if you use DSS & R3 - it is (IMO) the best tool for defending Cross crease - should you find yourself in a position where you have to defend it. Get in to DSS holding R1 & RS - then, when you see the pass come off the stick (or anticipate it) click R3 to time the poke with the trajectory of the puck.

    Some defeatists here will claim "you can't do this against 'top tier' teams" or "I make passes with lightning speed that this would never stop" but they've yet to provide video of this tactic NOT working, whereas I've provided quite a few examples of it working pretty well.

    Poking with R3 in DSS also seems to make your player's model (stick included) more interactive in the frames when you release R1 rather than using R1 as a normal poke.

    It's definitely a different feel in how you can interrupt the play post-DSS&R3 poke versus a regular R1 Poke.

    Maybe @NHLDev can chime in on whether or not this is true. Could just be in my mind.

  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    No one?

    Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by "bad place".

    In general, WoC is pretty solid. I've spent more time there this week with my club playing playoffs.

    I mean.. you're always going to have people cry about the cross-crease when they keep turning the puck over in the neutral zone and then wonder why their opponent has more speed than them. It's not necessarily about having better speed, it's about managing your momentum in the breakout/zone entry.


    I don't see a lot of people here on these forums who talk about the importance of passing to players in stride, so as not to impede the momentum/speed they're generating.

    When I hear people say "The other team just blows past us" - this tells me the other team is making passes to players in stride - limiting instances of players having to shift their momentum to cleanly receive a pass (which impedes their speed/momentum) - which results in generating a lot of speed that can burn defenders who don't properly anticipate this.

    Edit: I'd like to add that the importance of doing this (passes without impeding momentum) through the neutral zone is the most important factor in generating speed to burn defenders who aren't anticipating this

    Poke checking is probably going to get nerfed because of kids who get their offence nuked by players who use it appropriately - but as of now if you use DSS & R3 - it is (IMO) the best tool for defending Cross crease - should you find yourself in a position where you have to defend it. Get in to DSS holding R1 & RS - then, when you see the pass come off the stick (or anticipate it) click R3 to time the poke with the trajectory of the puck.

    Some defeatists here will claim "you can't do this against 'top tier' teams" or "I make passes with lightning speed that this would never stop" but they've yet to provide video of this tactic NOT working, whereas I've provided quite a few examples of it working pretty well.

    Poking with R3 in DSS also seems to make your player's model (stick included) more interactive in the frames when you release R1 rather than using R1 as a normal poke.

    It's definitely a different feel in how you can interrupt the play post-DSS&R3 poke versus a regular R1 Poke.

    Maybe @NHLDev can chime in on whether or not this is true. Could just be in my mind.

    there are two different kind of "blows past us". There's blowing past AI defenders. Thats easy, just pick up the puck in neutral zone and skate in a straight line. they will back skate the entire time until too late and then the wonky slow transition to front skate is final nail in coffin for them. Its hilarious how often i score like this. I'm like "oh AI defense. skate in straight line until you get a step on them then just score however based on what hand you are and what lane you are in". You just have to be careful they don't poke it away last second.

    if we are talking human defenders. They have same problem if they are still playing like its NHL 20, keeping tighter gaps and actively defending while back skating and hoping to turn and skate with the defender when it seems he's going to try and skate by you. I'm not saying its awful but its a big adjustment.

    The only other 2 areas where defense can be difficult. The slow L2 transitioning can make it easy for a player to slip behind you at the last second. Combine that with the way puck intercepts work now playing defense can be very difficult against good players.

    Improvements to poke/dss aside, overall defense is a little harder to play now and offense is as easier than ever. Once you adjust its not that bad. Good players working well to open lanes and using laser passes for cross ice one timers can be very difficult to deal with.

    I thought about this the other day, the fact that you can hold the button and skate around waiting to unleash a laser pass is probably a bad thing. A LW can start holding it down as he enters the zone, dangles through a crowd, around back of the net to far corner and then for a split second a lane opens back to LD and he unleashes a lazer beam instantly that goes 50ft back to opposite point who shoots a one timer that beats the goalie because all this 100ft of puck movement goes faster than a goalie can react and slide 5 ft.

    Maybe if you press and hold the button to do a hard pass is ok as long as you don't hold it too long. then it goes back to being a softer pass. That could get really wonky though. At end of the day its balanced as long as both teams have this capability. But It would improve the game I think.

    Either way I don't think Defense is that bad once you adapt. A few things feel better than tech test. But it could be better for sure.

  • Sega82mega
    3109 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    No one?

    Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by "bad place".

    In general, WoC is pretty solid. I've spent more time there this week with my club playing playoffs.

    I mean.. you're always going to have people cry about the cross-crease when they keep turning the puck over in the neutral zone and then wonder why their opponent has more speed than them. It's not necessarily about having better speed, it's about managing your momentum in the breakout/zone entry.


    I don't see a lot of people here on these forums who talk about the importance of passing to players in stride, so as not to impede the momentum/speed they're generating.

    When I hear people say "The other team just blows past us" - this tells me the other team is making passes to players in stride - limiting instances of players having to shift their momentum to cleanly receive a pass (which impedes their speed/momentum) - which results in generating a lot of speed that can burn defenders who don't properly anticipate this.

    Edit: I'd like to add that the importance of doing this (passes without impeding momentum) through the neutral zone is the most important factor in generating speed to burn defenders who aren't anticipating this

    Poke checking is probably going to get nerfed because of kids who get their offence nuked by players who use it appropriately - but as of now if you use DSS & R3 - it is (IMO) the best tool for defending Cross crease - should you find yourself in a position where you have to defend it. Get in to DSS holding R1 & RS - then, when you see the pass come off the stick (or anticipate it) click R3 to time the poke with the trajectory of the puck.

    Some defeatists here will claim "you can't do this against 'top tier' teams" or "I make passes with lightning speed that this would never stop" but they've yet to provide video of this tactic NOT working, whereas I've provided quite a few examples of it working pretty well.

    Poking with R3 in DSS also seems to make your player's model (stick included) more interactive in the frames when you release R1 rather than using R1 as a normal poke.

    It's definitely a different feel in how you can interrupt the play post-DSS&R3 poke versus a regular R1 Poke.

    Maybe @NHLDev can chime in on whether or not this is true. Could just be in my mind.


    I thought about this the other day, the fact that you can hold the button and skate around waiting to unleash a laser pass is probably a bad thing. A LW can start holding it down as he enters the zone, dangles through a crowd, around back of the net to far corner and then for a split second a lane opens back to LD and he unleashes a lazer beam instantly that goes 50ft back to opposite point who shoots a one timer that beats the goalie because all this 100ft of puck movement goes faster than a goalie can react and slide 5 ft.



    Yes exactly, that and that one timers is automatically realesed.

    Meanwhile the defender has to cover up, when everything happens in full speed.

    And yes it's fair in that way because both teams have this capability. But it's unfair against anyone that like to keep it as real as it get..

    And it would defenetly improve the game and make it more fun, and that should be a prio.
  • TITAN_NHL
    64 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Explain to me how needing to be absolutely perfect defensively is balanced with a forward that literally just has to hit R2 to pass through a crowd for a tap in and be rewarded is considered balanced.

    When one position of the game has to work 10x harder than the other, that’s considered great gameplay according to this guy
    Post edited by Socair on
  • @KidShowtime1867

    What suggestion do you have for hitting a player in stride when the game sliders force receivers to slow up, or even reach back toward a pass that is already approaching them? This refers more to H2H modes, for clarity.
  • Davanial wrote: »
    @KidShowtime1867

    What suggestion do you have for hitting a player in stride when the game sliders force receivers to slow up, or even reach back toward a pass that is already approaching them? This refers more to H2H modes, for clarity.

    If the players are slowing up or reaching behind them, you're not hitting them in stride accurately.

  • Yea, I thought as much. Thanks anyway.
  • Things are still exactly the same as before but as always the defenders who don't quit have learned how to adapt in the best ways the game will allow for this year.

    Defense is overall a bit harder than the previous year and offense easier, like every year. In the xbox dropin lobbies this year there seem to be even less willing d guys out there queuing up.
  • Davanial wrote: »
    @KidShowtime1867

    What suggestion do you have for hitting a player in stride when the game sliders force receivers to slow up, or even reach back toward a pass that is already approaching them? This refers more to H2H modes, for clarity.

    If the players are slowing up or reaching behind them, you're not hitting them in stride accurately.

    I think there's a small issue sometimes with pass receptions/puck pickup. When a pass comes from behind a player and crosses his body to get to his stick I've seen various results. Sometimes it goes perfectly right to the open forehand (in stride or if stationary) but sometimes he decides to reach back to grab it early. sometimes it slows him down but in scoring areas it screws up everything. I see so many guys in perfect position (or myself) to receive pass and take a quick FH shot and instead they reach back and grab it almost on top of their stick and shot a backhand.

    I know what you are saying and sometimes thats the case but I've also see where the pass should have been picked up, on FH, in stride and instead its like they reach back to catch puck sooner and the weird animation slows them down.


    and this new "force your body to face the center of the ice in certain situations" is sooo annoying. I swear it has been there on puck pickups before 21 but now its there on L2 rotations.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1601 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Davanial wrote: »
    @KidShowtime1867

    What suggestion do you have for hitting a player in stride when the game sliders force receivers to slow up, or even reach back toward a pass that is already approaching them? This refers more to H2H modes, for clarity.

    If the players are slowing up or reaching behind them, you're not hitting them in stride accurately.

    I think there's a small issue sometimes with pass receptions/puck pickup. When a pass comes from behind a player and crosses his body to get to his stick I've seen various results. Sometimes it goes perfectly right to the open forehand (in stride or if stationary) but sometimes he decides to reach back to grab it early. sometimes it slows him down but in scoring areas it screws up everything. I see so many guys in perfect position (or myself) to receive pass and take a quick FH shot and instead they reach back and grab it almost on top of their stick and shot a backhand.

    I know what you are saying and sometimes thats the case but I've also see where the pass should have been picked up, on FH, in stride and instead its like they reach back to catch puck sooner and the weird animation slows them down.


    and this new "force your body to face the center of the ice in certain situations" is sooo annoying. I swear it has been there on puck pickups before 21 but now its there on L2 rotations.

    Agreed - not all passes in stride that are aimed accurately result in a reception animation that keeps the speed/momentum.

    I've definitely seen instances where the pickup animation is selected rather prematurely.

    It would be nice if, in those instances, the receiving player was able to calculate where the puck would be if they left it alone for just a few more frames - and if, within those frames, they could select a more advantageous pickup.

    This logic (anticipating puck trajectory) seems to be activated when a player will lift his leg to let a pass go through him rather than picking it up.

    It seems, in the hypothetical scenario we are talking about where they want to accept the pass rather than let it through - they just react to the pass the instant the puck is in their vicinity and pick the animation accordingly.
  • So... it's not because I didn't hit them in stride accurately, it's the game's puck pickup calculations? That's what I was wondering; why my player, facing a pass even, will slow down or even reach for a puck that is already moving toward him.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    No one?

    Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by "bad place".

    During the tech test, there were no discernible improvements to playing D, yet many for offense. Both AI and human players had some sort of delay in reversing skating direction, making it even more difficult to maintain proper gap control.

    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.

  • there are two different kind of "blows past us". There's blowing past AI defenders. Thats easy, just pick up the puck in neutral zone and skate in a straight line. they will back skate the entire time until too late and then the wonky slow transition to front skate is final nail in coffin for them. Its hilarious how often i score like this. I'm like "oh AI defense. skate in straight line until you get a step on them then just score however based on what hand you are and what lane you are in". You just have to be careful they don't poke it away last second.

    if we are talking human defenders. They have same problem if they are still playing like its NHL 20, keeping tighter gaps and actively defending while back skating and hoping to turn and skate with the defender when it seems he's going to try and skate by you. I'm not saying its awful but its a big adjustment.

    The only other 2 areas where defense can be difficult. The slow L2 transitioning can make it easy for a player to slip behind you at the last second. Combine that with the way puck intercepts work now playing defense can be very difficult against good players.

    Improvements to poke/dss aside, overall defense is a little harder to play now and offense is as easier than ever. Once you adjust its not that bad. Good players working well to open lanes and using laser passes for cross ice one timers can be very difficult to deal with.

    I thought about this the other day, the fact that you can hold the button and skate around waiting to unleash a laser pass is probably a bad thing. A LW can start holding it down as he enters the zone, dangles through a crowd, around back of the net to far corner and then for a split second a lane opens back to LD and he unleashes a lazer beam instantly that goes 50ft back to opposite point who shoots a one timer that beats the goalie because all this 100ft of puck movement goes faster than a goalie can react and slide 5 ft.

    Maybe if you press and hold the button to do a hard pass is ok as long as you don't hold it too long. then it goes back to being a softer pass. That could get really wonky though. At end of the day its balanced as long as both teams have this capability. But It would improve the game I think.

    Either way I don't think Defense is that bad once you adapt. A few things feel better than tech test. But it could be better for sure.
    This is basically the answer I was looking for. Thank you sir!
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • jrago73 wrote: »
    Things are still exactly the same as before but as always the defenders who don't quit have learned how to adapt in the best ways the game will allow for this year.

    Defense is overall a bit harder than the previous year and offense easier, like every year. In the xbox dropin lobbies this year there seem to be even less willing d guys out there queuing up.
    Thanks this essentially answers my question.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • So for those who posted here who play D with regularity... is it fun to play? More frustrating than in 20? Less? Same?
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1198 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    In general, WoC is pretty solid. I've spent more time there this week with my club playing playoffs.

    I mean.. you're always going to have people cry about the cross-crease when they keep turning the puck over in the neutral zone and then wonder why their opponent has more speed than them. It's not necessarily about having better speed, it's about managing your momentum in the breakout/zone entry.

    I don't see a lot of people here on these forums who talk about the importance of passing to players in stride, so as not to impede the momentum/speed they're generating.

    When I hear people say "The other team just blows past us" - this tells me the other team is making passes to players in stride - limiting instances of players having to shift their momentum to cleanly receive a pass (which impedes their speed/momentum) - which results in generating a lot of speed that can burn defenders who don't properly anticipate this.

    Edit: I'd like to add that the importance of doing this (passes without impeding momentum) through the neutral zone is the most important factor in generating speed to burn defenders who aren't anticipating this

    So is it even possible anymore to contain the puck on the offensive blue line without completely sacrificing any semblance of responsible gap control?


    Poke checking is probably going to get nerfed because of kids who get their offence nuked by players who use it appropriately - but as of now if you use DSS & R3 - it is (IMO) the best tool for defending Cross crease - should you find yourself in a position where you have to defend it. Get in to DSS holding R1 & RS - then, when you see the pass come off the stick (or anticipate it) click R3 to time the poke with the trajectory of the puck.

    Some defeatists here will claim "you can't do this against 'top tier' teams" or "I make passes with lightning speed that this would never stop" but they've yet to provide video of this tactic NOT working, whereas I've provided quite a few examples of it working pretty well.

    Poking with R3 in DSS also seems to make your player's model (stick included) more interactive in the frames when you release R1 rather than using R1 as a normal poke.

    It's definitely a different feel in how you can interrupt the play post-DSS&R3 poke versus a regular R1 Poke.
    Crikey. I don't think it's just "sour grapes" to say that the difference in level of effort/skill required here between executing a pass, and disrupting one is ridiculously tilted.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    So for those who posted here who play D with regularity... is it fun to play? More frustrating than in 20? Less? Same?

    You know you're good if you can still be effective. It's frustrating when you're in good position and a pass goes through you. Feels good to have an effective poke check when a skater is coming at you with no thought of protecting the puck.
  • Defense can still be enjoyable, in the same way as picking at a scab can be.
  • Davanial wrote: »
    Defense can still be enjoyable, in the same way as picking at a scab can be.

    Lmfao that’s the exact kind of thing I think of whenever someone defends the game right now. Playing D in this game reminds me of playing a game with my kid and letting them get a head start to make them think they are doing good. That’s what EA does with offense in this game
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