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This is what the cross crease has done

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  • Sega82mega
    2360 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    I bealive if both team that playing against each other started to fall back (play defense) as soon as they lost the puck, this general gameplay would be much more fun.

    And less cross crease hockey.

    All of this crazy forecheck with offensive hits high up in the o-zone is often the reason to a really chaotic hockey.

    I often try to go for 1 offensive hit.. And thats in the neutral zone, if I miss that one, it's really importen to fall back and play more control (safe man-man).

    Constantly looking for big offensive hits will always have a bad influence on your defensive play. Defense starts when you loose the puck.

    If your'e not down and you startin to run out of time.
  • kezz123 wrote: »

    One thing is your clips seem to show extremelly "fast and agile" player movement while I am usually "stuck in mud" with fatman lag. Do you ever experience fatman lag?

    Absolutely. Especially in EASHL. We have one member of our team currently suffering from some internet issues - and it tends to give those games the feeling that your inputs are delayed and your player moves like a truck.

    That being said, it's not always like that. I'd say, for the most part, we are fat-man-lag free with the exception of a few games here and there.

    kezz123 wrote: »
    I have a feeling, as said before that my regular fatmanlag contributes to "desync" with the game and meaning where I "see the puck" is not where it actually is. So for me, maybe my poke "looks" perfect but in fact is off target. The same is true for checking and passing. Once I start getitng fatmanlag, I start bouncing off people way more often and suddenly start struggling to pass accurately.

    On the flip side, when I feel agile, I tend to do all these things more effectively.

    Yes - I do believe that the current state of the game is not lenient whatsoever when it comes to lag. It relies heavily on pristine internet connections with no latency/jitter in order to resemble the fidelity we feel when playing offline or in OVP.

    The move to dedicated servers for EASHL helps, but you're still only getting performance of the lowest common dominator. Meaning; if 1 person has a bad connection to the dedicated server - the NHL series tends to throttle everything down to that user's level.

    Now - I will admit that I don't know exactly how EA is handling their connections, but there seems to be a distinct change in this regard for NHL 21.

    When dedicated servers were first introduced - it seemed as though the one person with a bad connection would either suffer alone or eventually get booted.

    Now , it appears there is an attempt to keep everyone connected - even if their connection is subpar - at the expense of fat-man-lag effecting everyone in the session.

    Again - these are just my observations and I really have no specific knowledge about the 'net code' involved.
    kezz123 wrote: »
    But there are definitely some things I will toy with based on your clips and see if I can help improve consistency a bit even during fatmanlag

    That is awesome and I'm glad I could point you in the right direction.

    Admittedly - these defensive maneuvers are hard to time properly on poor connections, so I absolutely see where you are coming from.

    kezz123 wrote: »
    Also to add to the fatmanlag impact, on one of the clip where you show how to discourage a player from doing a cross crease, I would never be able to follow the guy like that. when I press up slightly my guy feels like he weights a ton and moves up and if I try to move back down his "up momentum" takes a good while to stop and change directlion.

    So I think this is because you are used to pressing Left Stick to 100% radius when controlling a player. This results in your player trying to 'explode' in the direction you're pushing LS - which makes it harder to instruct the player to go in a different direction. The momentum shifts result in losing a step on the puck carrier.

    The solution to this is to learn when to 'feather' Left Stick - meaning not pushing it all the way all the time.

    This gives your player more agility to move in many different directions and keep up with the puck carrier.

    kezz123 wrote: »
    Imagine playing with a delay on your input of about half a second on everything you do. Its super messed up.

    Agreed - those games are infuriating. I really wish the game engine were upgraded to be more responsive in high-latency situations.

    It seems anything above 100ms is a death sentence for most. Whereas in other triple A-multiplayer titles - you can still hang with the best around 150ms.

    Now - I understand the fundamental differences between say a Call of Duty and the NHL games - but other people don't. They expect both games to perform the same online, regardless of the fact they are entirely different game engines. Not to mention the NHL engine likely still contains code snippets that are decades old.

    Fingers crossed that the next-gen NHL game (whenever that comes) will include a rebuild of the core engine, including enhancements to the ability to have responsive controls in sub-part latency environments.

    However, with HUT being as popular as it is and a new engine likely meaning HUt would need to be re-built as well.. I just don't see it happening any time soon.
  • I think maybe nhl 10-11 was more forgiving on the "size" of your blade because I never had issues back then with deflecting passes to cross crease but now it seems sooooo much more unlikely despite the puck going either on my stick or ultra close to it. So yah, perhaps more forgiving hitboxes would be helpful considering the lag issues.

    Im going to try to pay attention to my "feathering" movements. There is definitely a bit of a vicious circle when you press lightly and "nothing happens" due to delay so you press a little more but also are now getting beat so you press harder and so on so forth lol

  • Davanial
    267 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    @kezz123 Do you ever check your replays to see what actually occurred on any given play, particularly one that you thought you played well?

    As example, I could have sworn I made a perfect poke check on a guy yesterday, yet apparently missed. The replay showed that while he had control of the puck his stick blade was actually floating approximately 3" off the ice. My poke passed right under the blade, slightly missing the puck. This happens relatively often, though I'd never personally seen a stick blade remain elevated for such an extended period as this replay showed.

    Not exactly a 'tip' here, I know. Sometimes, the game just says "gotcha".
  • When you push Left Stick to 100% eventually you will have no more speed to gain.. The tank gets empty, and nothing will feel smooth.

    I so wish this whole game could be played with more feather feeling, but I dont know what that would have to happen, for everyone to realize that it's so much more satisfied feeling to play this game that way.

    The more feather you move your player, the easier it gets to control him, and you may even experience 'less lag' that way.
  • I have noticed this game is nothing but cross-crease, hustling online anymore. In 125+ games I think we have played 5 teams who play a fun style. Everyone else tries the same thing over and over.

    The new glitch goal is to cut across the goal mouth with your stick held to the backhand and then quickly return it to forehand and shoot high far side.

    Did anyone at EA test the game or what? You can find this stuff in 6 hours of play time to be able to figure it out.

    Maybe they like it this way? If that is the case things are worse than I thought
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    When you push Left Stick to 100% eventually you will have no more speed to gain.. The tank gets empty, and nothing will feel smooth.

    I so wish this whole game could be played with more feather feeling, but I dont know what that would have to happen, for everyone to realize that it's so much more satisfied feeling to play this game that way.

    The more feather you move your player, the easier it gets to control him, and you may even experience 'less lag' that way.
    I have not yet done it because i have other people waiting on me and dont want to pause all the time.

    Also because I am VERY consistently missing the interception in all sort of various scenarios...im still exploring to see if I can change something to "get it"

    Im considering starting to save a few clips if this keeps happening but for now I am not yet at that point.

    When you say the tank gets empty....do you mean the green bar on your screen? I notice mine is usually about 90-95% full.

  • Sega82mega
    2360 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    kezz123 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    When you push Left Stick to 100% eventually you will have no more speed to gain.. The tank gets empty, and nothing will feel smooth.

    I so wish this whole game could be played with more feather feeling, but I dont know what that would have to happen, for everyone to realize that it's so much more satisfied feeling to play this game that way.

    The more feather you move your player, the easier it gets to control him, and you may even experience 'less lag' that way.
    I have not yet done it because i have other people waiting on me and dont want to pause all the time.

    Also because I am VERY consistently missing the interception in all sort of various scenarios...im still exploring to see if I can change something to "get it"

    Im considering starting to save a few clips if this keeps happening but for now I am not yet at that point.

    When you say the tank gets empty....do you mean the green bar on your screen? I notice mine is usually about 90-95% full.

    No im talking about top speed, both team has a certain speed limit, were you can't go any faster then you do, usally thats when we start to push even harder on our controller, this might work if you have more speed then your opponent, but its a really demanding playstyle and probebly not that fun to play. Its almost impossible to play defense in this state of mind.

    Try for fun to only control one of either LD or RD everytime your opponent gets the puck, switch directly to one of your defender, and when you do, try not to go for a hit, instead keep him in good positioning in your own zone. Work alot with vision control, to learn how to face the puck carrier. It's a good exercise if you wanna practice defense the 'correct' way.

    And feel free to put up a video, I can defenetly take a look and see if I can give some good advice.

    KidShowtime1867 is good player in this game, probably a good idea to listen to he's tips too. But what looks easy for him, might be really difficult for us other's. It takes alot of practice to get the defense right.

    *And play some online vs instead of HUT if you don't wanna lose ranking points, but play games were you don't care about the score, instead focus only on defense.. Dump the puck when you are in neutral zone and wait for him to come.. And try to read him, without big hits.. Do this over and over.. For 3-4 games and I promis you will be better. But you have to sacrifice some games to do this.

    * might sound stupid but practice to backskate, so you can cover one side to the other. From left to right in a big circle.
    Post edited by Sega82mega on
  • Oh I dont play 1v1. Only EASHL so I never control anything but my own guy.
  • kezz123 wrote: »
    Oh I dont play 1v1. Only EASHL so I never control anything but my own guy.

    Same thing applies - feather left stick, choose your movements wisely to conserve energy and maintain good agility to defend and pickup loose pucks.
  • KidShowtime1867
    1381 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Captured a few more defensive clips last night during our EASHL Playoff run. We only had 5 total players last night 4 + 1 goalie.

    For those of you who demand clips only be taken from 'top' or 'elite' EASHL games, here's our standing:

    zpJcOUf.png

    My defensive partner and I tend to really force the puck carrier wide, which often times forces them to make a move. Feathering the left stick, Timing DSS + R3 allows you to get an accurate poke check without a trip:



    Here is an instance where I cover for RD - and to prevent a cross-crease attempt I force the puck carrier wide, lay a body check (feathering LS put me in good position to do so) and separate the puck carrier from the puck, eventually drawing a penalty after a poor poke check attempt:




    In this sequence, I get caught just a step too high. You know you've been caught high when you have to turn around in your own zone. Our centreman recognized the misstep right away and properly backchecked to cover the net while I tried to dig myself out of a jam. I get very lucky here with a pick pickup down low. I feel the key element to this clip is how well the center played the backcheck. He offered support so that I could go down low.




    This clip shows how you can feather LS to keep position in front of the net while battling a defender. Timing a body check with an incoming shot prevents them from getting a deflection:



  • Good handbok!

    And perfect played by your center. Nice to see some true team spirit.
  • Feathering LS, timing poke checks, timing pivots, gliding, etc.

    My question is - how come the forward's don't have their own set of ridiculous precision movements and tactics? They press 3 buttons and they can do everything the elite do.
  • Feathering LS, timing poke checks, timing pivots, gliding, etc.

    My question is - how come the forward's don't have their own set of ridiculous precision movements and tactics? They press 3 buttons and they can do everything the elite do.

    I would argue that they do.

    Feathering LS while in possession of the puck does give the puck carrier more precision as to what direction you want to go and/or the ability to go one direction and quickly move another one - faking out defenders. It's hard to do that if you're going full tilt.

    On the shooting side of things, forwards need to get in to good position to get an accurate shot off. They need to glide a bit and/or hold the puck to the forehand/backhand for a few frames in order to increase accuracy. During these frames, they are susceptible to getting knocked off the puck by a defender who can play it properly.

    In my opinion, the current issue on the offensive side of things is the ability for players to throw blind passes with absurd accuracy. Lots of behind the back, no-look hook passes being made which bails out the offensive players.

    I sincerely hope these no-look passes are addressed. Passing should require more accuracy and fidelity, but increasing the difficulty while everyone is so used to just pushing the button and everything happens for them.... that would result in some backlash for sure.
  • [quote="KidShowtime1867;c-2170642"][quote="MaskedMan2014;c-2170639"]Feathering LS, timing poke checks, timing pivots, gliding, etc.

    My question is - how come the forward's don't have their own set of ridiculous precision movements and tactics? They press 3 buttons and they can do everything the elite do.[/quote]

    I would argue that they do.

    Feathering LS while in possession of the puck does give the puck carrier more precision as to what direction you want to go and/or the ability to go one direction and quickly move another one - faking out defenders. It's hard to do that if you're going full tilt.

    On the shooting side of things, forwards need to get in to good position to get an accurate shot off. They need to glide a bit and/or hold the puck to the forehand/backhand for a few frames in order to increase accuracy. During these frames, they are susceptible to getting knocked off the puck by a defender who can play it properly.

    In my opinion, the current issue on the offensive side of things is the ability for players to throw blind passes with absurd accuracy. Lots of behind the back, no-look hook passes being made which bails out the offensive players.

    I sincerely hope these no-look passes are addressed. Passing should require more accuracy and fidelity, but increasing the difficulty while everyone is so used to just pushing the button and everything happens for them.... that would result in some backlash for sure.[/quote]

    I like your input here.

    Since you can throw blind, no look, goofy, hook passes with stick fully extended around your body, you don't need to do anything else though.

    My team is division 2, 5 of us. We are okay. Just enjoy playing together. Not overly serious. This game is getting boring fast. Beating teams trying the same 2 goals is lame.

    How about the new one, Kid? Cut across the middle and go high far side while the goalie slides out to lunch?
  • Id like to see some minor automation equivalent to forwards regaing the puck with skates. Kick/block the pass with skates when its too hard to take possession cleanly.

    And why is it always talked about defensive vision to see, react and block the pass when offensive player receiving the pass is behind two defenders and cannot see the pass coming until he has 1ms to react? Where is the offensive vision?

  • How about the new one, Kid? Cut across the middle and go high far side while the goalie slides out to lunch?

    Yea, this has been an Achilles heel for a few years now.

    The argument I see.. and sometimes agree with, is "play with human goalies"

    Of course, for some of us, this isn't always an option. And because this isn't an option, we shouldn't automatically have to concede that a goal like this is just 'bound to happen'.

    The other argument is - 'defend it'. And that argument is something I always like to say - you shouldn't let a puck carrier get that kind of time and space in such a crucial area.

    However - like I've said before - often times it's the no-look hook passes that allow these players to obtain that position - not necessarily just a defensive lapse.

    I think if the no-look passes get addressed - you will see players obtain this position less often due to the play not being able to develop the way they're used to.

    but again.. I suspect a change to those passes will result in an outcry from the 'elite' and those who already have difficulties managing accurate passes.
  • Feathering LS, timing poke checks, timing pivots, gliding, etc.

    My question is - how come the forward's don't have their own set of ridiculous precision movements and tactics? They press 3 buttons and they can do everything the elite do.

    I would argue that they do.

    Feathering LS while in possession of the puck does give the puck carrier more precision as to what direction you want to go and/or the ability to go one direction and quickly move another one - faking out defenders. It's hard to do that if you're going full tilt.

    On the shooting side of things, forwards need to get in to good position to get an accurate shot off. They need to glide a bit and/or hold the puck to the forehand/backhand for a few frames in order to increase accuracy. During these frames, they are susceptible to getting knocked off the puck by a defender who can play it properly.

    In my opinion, the current issue on the offensive side of things is the ability for players to throw blind passes with absurd accuracy. Lots of behind the back, no-look hook passes being made which bails out the offensive players.

    I sincerely hope these no-look passes are addressed. Passing should require more accuracy and fidelity, but increasing the difficulty while everyone is so used to just pushing the button and everything happens for them.... that would result in some backlash for sure.

    Exactly, this post is perfect.

    Find a solution to that offensive side of problem with "blind passes with absurd accuracy. Lots of behind the back, no-look hook passes being made which bails out the offensive players."

    ... And I know for 95% the 'perfect' balance is here.
  • > @KidShowtime1867 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Yea, this has been an Achilles heel for a few years now.
    >
    > The argument I see.. and sometimes agree with, is "play with human goalies"
    >
    > Of course, for some of us, this isn't always an option. And because this isn't an option, we shouldn't automatically have to concede that a goal like this is just 'bound to happen'.
    >
    > The other argument is - 'defend it'. And that argument is something I always like to say - you shouldn't let a puck carrier get that kind of time and space in such a crucial area.
    >
    > However - like I've said before - often times it's the no-look hook passes that allow these players to obtain that position - not necessarily just a defensive lapse.
    >
    > I think if the no-look passes get addressed - you will see players obtain this position less often due to the play not being able to develop the way they're used to.
    >
    > but again.. I suspect a change to those passes will result in an outcry from the 'elite' and those who already have difficulties managing accurate passes.

    You are not wrong. The problem is you can defend someone to a perfect T and they can still squeak a pass by they have no business getting through. Like you said when you hold your stick out you have apparent super powers in regards to passing. Full power, full accuracy, can throw a pass behind your body in a way that defies physics. 21 makes you play super aggressive all the time because this game is nothing but speed speed speed and rush rush rush.

    This is the point of my argument here. If defenders have to be super precise - that is a good thing - why are forwards not held to the same standard? You can do all kinds of cool dekes and moves but you dont have to. Hold your stick out bounce off a few checks loop and circle constantly until you can get a - what would be terrible decision - pass through for a one timer.

    I am not saying you cant stop these people. I am saying this is boring hockey. I have read these forums for years and this is the first year I dislike the game so much that I have to comment on it. It is not in a good spot for online play.

    Is what you said really true? Do they listen to the elite players for all of their advice?
  • If defenders have to be super precise - that is a good thing - why are forwards not held to the same standard? You can do all kinds of cool dekes and moves but you dont have to. Hold your stick out bounce off a few checks loop and circle constantly until you can get a - what would be terrible decision - pass through for a one timer.

    Yea, I agree. Players in possession of the puck need to be held accountable for making high speed, no-look passes.
    I am not saying you cant stop these people. I am saying this is boring hockey.

    Agreed. It can be boring to keep seeing the same passes being executed without penalty over and over.

    That being said - EA needs to keep casuals happy. As much as those of us in this forum hate to hear it - there's a balance that needs to be struck.

    There are those of us who understand and even welcome an increase in difficulty for pulling off simple things such as a basic pass or shot.

    But the majority of the people buying this game - whether it be for the first time or for the first time in a while - they want to be able to pull off the sick moves/dekes/shots that they see in the trailer with relative ease.

    Of course, 'ease' is different to everyone - and when 500,000 people buy your game every year, you're trying to balance 500,000 different thresholds for what constitutes 'ease' and eventually translates to 'fun'.

    EA wants their game to be fun and the more the game evolves and the player-base increases, the more they need to try and strike that balance of 'fun' with 'realism'.
    Is what you said really true? Do they listen to the elite players for all of their advice?

    I don't think it's fair that only the 'elite' players catch the ears/eyes of the development team. They have a GameChangers group which, although some of the members have a social-media presence which usually involves being the top of their given niche (HUT, OVP, EASHL) - other members are behind the scenes petitioning for more realism.

    That's not to say the ones who stream their prominence in their niche aren't also wanting realism - NoSleeves is one who has a good balanced perspective - but I do feel that with some of the 'elite' leaderboard leaders who provide their feedback - they are wanting the game changed to benefit their play style so that their streams continue to be successful.

    Again - not saying these are the only people they get their feedback from nor am I saying EA neccesrily 'listens' to them.

    However, with their social media audience typically agreeing with everything they say - they typically have a 'louder' essence to their feedback.
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