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Looks like Frostbite is coming to NHL 22

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  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    Follisimo wrote: »

    Or maybe that game development is a little more complicated than you think ;)

    Or maybe that effective communication is not nearly as difficult as you think :wink:

    Well we have also had developers come here and explain their reasoning for things and if it doesn't match what the people on the forums want they get angry that it's not being changed to their way. So while developers interacting is a nice thing it also means they just get backlash and no one wants to deal with that. I mean when it comes to some things on these forums I disagree with and the developers also are listening to the other social media and influencers who take some of the communities feedback also.

    Also features and such are planned out way ahead of time for each year and some things possibly get pushed back due to not being ready. It's a thankless job even if they are pouring their hearts into the projects they do.

    The annual development cycle is a real problem. I think to get anywhere they would need two teams working on this for a year or two. One working on the current release and the other working on the next, with a longer, overlapping development cycle.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • GrundleDemon333
    107 posts Member
    edited March 2021
    Follisimo wrote: »

    Or maybe that game development is a little more complicated than you think ;)

    Or maybe that effective communication is not nearly as difficult as you think :wink:

    Well we have also had developers come here and explain their reasoning for things and if it doesn't match what the people on the forums want they get angry that it's not being changed to their way.

    Exactly.

    Hmm okay. So refusing to communicate or provide information to the entire community because some people may react negatively is the right approach and we should support that? We are literally on a forum where moderators exist to edit and/or delete inappropriate posts, and they do so regularly. If the devs don't want to see or hear negative feedback, give some actual info to the mods for them to post and handle replies. If some people get "angry," so what? I mean, do they think that inaction and withholding information on significant issues is going to make people less angry? Maybe, just maybe, they're making it worse ...


  • Follisimo wrote: »

    Or maybe that game development is a little more complicated than you think ;)

    Or maybe that effective communication is not nearly as difficult as you think :wink:

    Well we have also had developers come here and explain their reasoning for things and if it doesn't match what the people on the forums want they get angry that it's not being changed to their way.

    Exactly.

    Hmm okay. So refusing to communicate or provide information to the entire community because some people may react negatively is the right approach and we should support that?


    I'm not supporting the refusal to communicate. However, I am supporting their refusal to interact with forum members who plain and simply want to argue and insist their point of view is the correct one - regardless of whether or not a developer provides them sound-reasoning behind why something happens in game that is unexpected.

    We've had people post a videos of sequences that they felt were 'not hockey'. Subsequent review by developers led them to provide detailed explanations that delve in to the core engine and the decision making behind some of the engineering decisions made by the software developers.

    Afterwards, users would berate them for being 'too technical' or flat out implicate them as liars and purposely deceiving them; completely disregarding a well-informed and highly technical breakdown of the game by those who make it.

    Personally, I have angst towards users who tell the developers of the game that they're wrong about something. It demonstrates the core problem which I alluded to earlier; for the most part - people who post their problems here (especially those who don't provide simple video captures) are simply looking to be told they're right. They want confirmation of their bias. When confronted with the reality that maybe they either made a mistake or aren't as skilled at the game as they believe, they attack the developers and I think that is wrong.



  • Follisimo wrote: »

    Or maybe that game development is a little more complicated than you think ;)

    Or maybe that effective communication is not nearly as difficult as you think :wink:

    Well we have also had developers come here and explain their reasoning for things and if it doesn't match what the people on the forums want they get angry that it's not being changed to their way.

    Exactly.

    Hmm okay. So refusing to communicate or provide information to the entire community because some people may react negatively is the right approach and we should support that?


    I'm not supporting the refusal to communicate. However, I am supporting their refusal to interact with forum members who plain and simply want to argue and insist their point of view is the correct one - regardless of whether or not a developer provides them sound-reasoning behind why something happens in game that is unexpected.

    I don't think I disagree with you. Ignore inappropriate and abusive people, and delete their posts. To be clear though, views on how the game normatively *should* behave in a given circumstance versus how and why it actually *does* behave is totally fair game (and I don't think you necessarily disagree).
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    Follisimo wrote: »

    Or maybe that game development is a little more complicated than you think ;)

    Or maybe that effective communication is not nearly as difficult as you think :wink:

    Well we have also had developers come here and explain their reasoning for things and if it doesn't match what the people on the forums want they get angry that it's not being changed to their way.

    Exactly.

    Hmm okay. So refusing to communicate or provide information to the entire community because some people may react negatively is the right approach and we should support that?


    I'm not supporting the refusal to communicate. However, I am supporting their refusal to interact with forum members who plain and simply want to argue and insist their point of view is the correct one - regardless of whether or not a developer provides them sound-reasoning behind why something happens in game that is unexpected.

    We've had people post a videos of sequences that they felt were 'not hockey'. Subsequent review by developers led them to provide detailed explanations that delve in to the core engine and the decision making behind some of the engineering decisions made by the software developers.

    Afterwards, users would berate them for being 'too technical' or flat out implicate them as liars and purposely deceiving them; completely disregarding a well-informed and highly technical breakdown of the game by those who make it.

    Personally, I have angst towards users who tell the developers of the game that they're wrong about something. It demonstrates the core problem which I alluded to earlier; for the most part - people who post their problems here (especially those who don't provide simple video captures) are simply looking to be told they're right. They want confirmation of their bias. When confronted with the reality that maybe they either made a mistake or aren't as skilled at the game as they believe, they attack the developers and I think that is wrong.



    Good post kid!
  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    Hmm okay. So refusing to communicate or provide information to the entire community because some people may react negatively is the right approach and we should support that? We are literally on a forum where moderators exist to edit and/or delete inappropriate posts, and they do so regularly. If the devs don't want to see or hear negative feedback, give some actual info to the mods for them to post and handle replies. If some people get "angry," so what? I mean, do they think that inaction and withholding information on significant issues is going to make people less angry? Maybe, just maybe, they're making it worse ...


    I get what you're saying - but looking at your post count, no offense, you're pretty new around here. You have no idea how awful this place can be and has been.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    I'm not supporting the refusal to communicate. However, I am supporting their refusal to interact with forum members who plain and simply want to argue and insist their point of view is the correct one - regardless of whether or not a developer provides them sound-reasoning behind why something happens in game that is unexpected.

    We've had people post a videos of sequences that they felt were 'not hockey'. Subsequent review by developers led them to provide detailed explanations that delve in to the core engine and the decision making behind some of the engineering decisions made by the software developers.

    Afterwards, users would berate them for being 'too technical' or flat out implicate them as liars and purposely deceiving them; completely disregarding a well-informed and highly technical breakdown of the game by those who make it.

    Personally, I have angst towards users who tell the developers of the game that they're wrong about something. It demonstrates the core problem which I alluded to earlier; for the most part - people who post their problems here (especially those who don't provide simple video captures) are simply looking to be told they're right. They want confirmation of their bias. When confronted with the reality that maybe they either made a mistake or aren't as skilled at the game as they believe, they attack the developers and I think that is wrong.

    Agreed. Mostly.

    Where this has broken down for me personally (as an observer mostly) in the past, where I think there has been a disconnect at times is:

    While I appreciate being given an explanation of why something is behaving the way it does; i.e. that it was programmed that way intentionally and not a bug as people were asserting, no real address of the initial condition ever seems to be made:

    IOW:

    OK great: so it works that way on purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean that it should just be "case closed". If a lot of people are complaining about the fact that Feature A works like X, maybe we can talk about how it might be changed to be better. I have never gotten a feeling that those discussions were being had, or that they are even all that welcome.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • IceLion68 wrote: »
    I'm not supporting the refusal to communicate. However, I am supporting their refusal to interact with forum members who plain and simply want to argue and insist their point of view is the correct one - regardless of whether or not a developer provides them sound-reasoning behind why something happens in game that is unexpected.

    We've had people post a videos of sequences that they felt were 'not hockey'. Subsequent review by developers led them to provide detailed explanations that delve in to the core engine and the decision making behind some of the engineering decisions made by the software developers.

    Afterwards, users would berate them for being 'too technical' or flat out implicate them as liars and purposely deceiving them; completely disregarding a well-informed and highly technical breakdown of the game by those who make it.

    Personally, I have angst towards users who tell the developers of the game that they're wrong about something. It demonstrates the core problem which I alluded to earlier; for the most part - people who post their problems here (especially those who don't provide simple video captures) are simply looking to be told they're right. They want confirmation of their bias. When confronted with the reality that maybe they either made a mistake or aren't as skilled at the game as they believe, they attack the developers and I think that is wrong.

    Agreed. Mostly.

    Where this has broken down for me personally (as an observer mostly) in the past, where I think there has been a disconnect at times is:

    While I appreciate being given an explanation of why something is behaving the way it does; i.e. that it was programmed that way intentionally and not a bug as people were asserting, no real address of the initial condition ever seems to be made:

    IOW:

    OK great: so it works that way on purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean that it should just be "case closed". If a lot of people are complaining about the fact that Feature A works like X, maybe we can talk about how it might be changed to be better. I have never gotten a feeling that those discussions were being had, or that they are even all that welcome.

    Completely agree here. Games can have a plethora of “issues” even if there’s no “technical issue” with the mechanics peoples are complaining about. So if many users are saying “the backhand shot is too underpowered” or “backhand passes are way too fast” that’s something that can be considered an “issue” without any bug happening.

    The other part, being a software developer does not make you Scotty Bowman. If I see the making the same mistakes over and over again, some even since NHL 09 (strong side D taking steps to the inside to allow the CPU a free dump on the PK, PP forecheck being overly passive/only 1 man on the puck, AI leaving their assigned zones on 1-4 and 1-3-1 NZ traps, AI leaving assignments because the user isn’t in the 1x1 millimeter spot the AI thinks “in position” is so sprints across the ice which usually results in a prime scoring chance) I am going to speak up about these “issues” even if the behavior is intended.

    This discussion has happened many times and many of us came to same conclusion the last time. I don’t necessarily care about the technical breakdown, it’s good for some context, but if that added context isn’t used to further discuss the behavior/game balance of whatever the scenario that’s getting broken down is, then it’s relatively useless. This has been misconstrued as “we don’t want engagement” which is whatever, but it really doesn’t help the “we aren’t being heard” crowd relax as it’s basically more proof that they aren’t being heard/understood.

    Oh well.
  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    I don’t necessarily care about the technical breakdown, it’s good for some context, but if that added context isn’t used to further discuss the behavior/game balance of whatever the scenario that’s getting broken down is, then it’s relatively useless. This has been misconstrued as “we don’t want engagement” which is whatever, but it really doesn’t help the “we aren’t being heard” crowd relax as it’s basically more proof that they aren’t being heard/understood.

    Yes - this is it exactly.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • GrundleDemon333
    107 posts Member
    edited March 2021
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    Hmm okay. So refusing to communicate or provide information to the entire community because some people may react negatively is the right approach and we should support that? We are literally on a forum where moderators exist to edit and/or delete inappropriate posts, and they do so regularly. If the devs don't want to see or hear negative feedback, give some actual info to the mods for them to post and handle replies. If some people get "angry," so what? I mean, do they think that inaction and withholding information on significant issues is going to make people less angry? Maybe, just maybe, they're making it worse ...


    I get what you're saying - but looking at your post count, no offense, you're pretty new around here. You have no idea how awful this place can be and has been.

    I have been more of an interested lurker but been around for a few years. In any event, like I said above, let's ignore the awful people and mods should delete their posts. As I also said above, I agree fully with your other post that questioning how the game *should* behave in a given circumstance versus technically how and why it actually *does* behave, alone, can't be what we mean by awful posts/people. An explanation of how the game works from a technical perspective does not necessarily address the issue, particularly when you're talking about objectively unrealistic outcomes and/or the type of gameplay the mechanics encourage/reward. At the end of the day though, "no answers or information for anyone then" is a pretty weak card to play ...
  • Follisimo
    1346 posts Member
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    I'm not supporting the refusal to communicate. However, I am supporting their refusal to interact with forum members who plain and simply want to argue and insist their point of view is the correct one - regardless of whether or not a developer provides them sound-reasoning behind why something happens in game that is unexpected.

    We've had people post a videos of sequences that they felt were 'not hockey'. Subsequent review by developers led them to provide detailed explanations that delve in to the core engine and the decision making behind some of the engineering decisions made by the software developers.

    Afterwards, users would berate them for being 'too technical' or flat out implicate them as liars and purposely deceiving them; completely disregarding a well-informed and highly technical breakdown of the game by those who make it.

    Personally, I have angst towards users who tell the developers of the game that they're wrong about something. It demonstrates the core problem which I alluded to earlier; for the most part - people who post their problems here (especially those who don't provide simple video captures) are simply looking to be told they're right. They want confirmation of their bias. When confronted with the reality that maybe they either made a mistake or aren't as skilled at the game as they believe, they attack the developers and I think that is wrong.

    Agreed. Mostly.

    Where this has broken down for me personally (as an observer mostly) in the past, where I think there has been a disconnect at times is:

    While I appreciate being given an explanation of why something is behaving the way it does; i.e. that it was programmed that way intentionally and not a bug as people were asserting, no real address of the initial condition ever seems to be made:

    IOW:

    OK great: so it works that way on purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean that it should just be "case closed". If a lot of people are complaining about the fact that Feature A works like X, maybe we can talk about how it might be changed to be better. I have never gotten a feeling that those discussions were being had, or that they are even all that welcome.

    And as it has been said before that these forums are a fraction of their users. I mean what there is maybe 10-15 different users here that post semi-regularly. There is also other places that have way more people that gather feedback to give to the developers also and even then that doesn't get results.

    As you said on your last point of wanting to make a change better. Better is subjective to their views of how maybe they want it be.
  • Umm... the 800 lb gorilla has put on a few more pounds. Right now EA is under and enormous amount of scrutiny for their... umm... "business model". Having EA employees communicate with a disenfranchised fan base kind of puts them at risk, no?

    As for Frosbite, I see no correlation in it making NHL better or worse. Between 3 games (Madden, FIFA, and NHL) there are 2 engines and all the aforementioned games suffer from very similar afflictions. Until the "business model" changes, I don't see Frosbite as a variable. Well, not one that's going to make me buy anymore EA games.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    To take feedback, EA needs to know what type of hockey game they wanna do.

    I think and I hope, that people that play this game is more experienced by the game of hockey then what shows in this game.

    But I guess it's plenty enough for many people to just have an ice, sticks, NHL players and two goalies and a puck, to make them feel it's hockey they are playing.

    If EA gonna take feedback, aaaand if they wanna make a realistic hockey game, in that case they need to know were the feedback is coming from.

    If feedback is coming from people that constantly trying to find 'short cuts' in the game mechanics, then it's 'dangerous' feedback to take/get.

    Thats why I dont 'trust' the majority of the elite, they dont want a hockey game, they wanna win by any price, they already shown it clearly just by the way they play.

    Of course this never going to happen, but if it would be done properly, EA should requires a video from people that are giving feedback, from a whole game, so that EA can get a 'hint' from which side of the table the feedback is coming from.

    Feedback can be the best to have, but also the worst, depending from who it comes from.

    And unfortunately from my experience, easy over 1000k games each realese sence 15, alot of people dosent seem to care about having a realistic hockey game, or at least, there not showing any sign of that by the way/look of how they playing this game.

    But then again, I argue that alot of people havent learned to play this game in a 'correct way' beacuse the 'META' thats been the same sence 15 wont allowed them to do.

    There’s no wish/curiosity to learn to play this game, with the right tools, when 'all you have to do' is skate on one wing and look for a cross crease and if you loose the puck, no worry, just drive every player you can against the direaction of the puck, with every tool (DSS - poke - hit - stick lift - bumps) we got from EA to capture the puck. And eventually it will get you the puck.

    But then to take feedback from the same people that play that way...? Is that really what we wanna have.

    Even if frostbite not going to change the 'meta' thats been forever... So at least it's going to look more nice.. When people fly down that wing looking for that one timer.

    That itself, is a must buy, for me - anyway.
  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    Sega82mega wrote: »

    Even if frostbite not going to change the 'meta' thats been forever... So at least it's going to look more nice.. When people fly down that wing looking for that one timer.

    That itself, is a must buy, for me - anyway.

    Good post (I didnt quote it all).

    I feel differently at the end of the day though. To quote Canadian rocker Matt Mays (on his own appearance), "You can't polish a turd". A broken game that looks pretty is still a broken game (I am using the term "broken" loosely here so please don't come at me for that). For me it will be no more fun to play because it looks nicer. They are going to have to do better than just that. I would like to assume there will be new features but NHL 15 has taught me not to get my hopes up on that too much.

    This year for the first time since I started playing NHL (which is only 14 - I am a relative newcomer, but I basically only play Gears and NHL) I waited until Christmas to get it on sale instead of at launch. Next year... who knows. It might be great and I will buy it at launch or it might be a train wreck and I will skip it.

    Time will tell.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    edited March 2021
    IceLion68 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »

    Even if frostbite not going to change the 'meta' thats been forever... So at least it's going to look more nice.. When people fly down that wing looking for that one timer.

    That itself, is a must buy, for me - anyway.

    Good post (I didnt quote it all).

    I feel differently at the end of the day though. To quote Canadian rocker Matt Mays (on his own appearance), "You can't polish a turd". A broken game that looks pretty is still a broken game (I am using the term "broken" loosely here so please don't come at me for that). For me it will be no more fun to play because it looks nicer. They are going to have to do better than just that. I would like to assume there will be new features but NHL 15 has taught me not to get my hopes up on that too much.

    This year for the first time since I started playing NHL (which is only 14 - I am a relative newcomer, but I basically only play Gears and NHL) I waited until Christmas to get it on sale instead of at launch. Next year... who knows. It might be great and I will buy it at launch or it might be a train wreck and I will skip it.

    Time will tell.

    Hehe you should never question a rocker, especially if it's a Canadian too... 😉

    All tough, and this is strictly my own opinion.

    Considering how many 'problems/fix" this serie had sence 15 comparision to "only" be down to - hook passes thats blind and from narrow angles the physical laws could arguee against.

    And of course some minor fix here and there, I would say thats pretty hopeful.

    But this is how I see it. Im pretty satisfied with how things are now, so bealive me when I say im afraid something will go lost with the move to frostbite and the next gen that will set us back to start all over again.

    But at the same time, im kinda bored with this, what seems to be, never ending META, so if just anything happen, that could wipe out that number one playstyle to go too, no one would be happier, even if it means some setbacks here and there.

    I really do think this will be good, but ofc it can also be a train wreck.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    edited March 2021
    https://www.ea.com/frostbite/engine

    Had little to do.

    "Our workflows and runtimes are highly configurable and cover all disciplines of development including Audio, Animation, Cinematics, Scripting, Physics, Destruction, Rendering, VFX, and more."

    That means we get a new sound? New animations, and physics?

    Alot of this things must have an impact on the gameplay?

    Im somehow thought it - only - had with the visual to do. 🤔🙄


    Also read this from reddit. Old post. About Fifa going over to frostbite.

    "Also consider the fact that the transition of a game from an engine to another, is like rebuilding the game from scratch. The game will be buggy at the first days of release. Don't get excited so fast, and don't get disappointed either so fast. Give it a year, a release and it will show its full potential. At my opinion the real deal will be Fifa 18"

    I got the impression he knew what he was talking about.

    And it sounds pretty obvious. Lets hope the 'worst frostbite' still will be better then the 'best ignite'.
  • Sega82mega wrote: »
    https://www.ea.com/frostbite/engine

    Had little to do.

    "Our workflows and runtimes are highly configurable and cover all disciplines of development including Audio, Animation, Cinematics, Scripting, Physics, Destruction, Rendering, VFX, and more."

    That means we get a new sound? New animations, and physics?

    Alot of this things must have an impact on the gameplay?

    Im somehow thought it - only - had with the visual to do. 🤔🙄


    Also read this from reddit. Old post. About Fifa going over to frostbite.

    "Also consider the fact that the transition of a game from an engine to another, is like rebuilding the game from scratch. The game will be buggy at the first days of release. Don't get excited so fast, and don't get disappointed either so fast. Give it a year, a release and it will show its full potential. At my opinion the real deal will be Fifa 18"

    I got the impression he knew what he was talking about.

    And it sounds pretty obvious. Lets hope the 'worst frostbite' still will be better then the 'best ignite'.

    I guess one positive thing to glean from that is that NHL has the benefit of learning from the transition to Frostbite via FIFA and Madden and hopefully that helps alleviate some of the issues.
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    https://www.ea.com/frostbite/engine

    Had little to do.

    "Our workflows and runtimes are highly configurable and cover all disciplines of development including Audio, Animation, Cinematics, Scripting, Physics, Destruction, Rendering, VFX, and more."

    That means we get a new sound? New animations, and physics?

    Alot of this things must have an impact on the gameplay?

    Im somehow thought it - only - had with the visual to do. 🤔🙄


    Also read this from reddit. Old post. About Fifa going over to frostbite.

    "Also consider the fact that the transition of a game from an engine to another, is like rebuilding the game from scratch. The game will be buggy at the first days of release. Don't get excited so fast, and don't get disappointed either so fast. Give it a year, a release and it will show its full potential. At my opinion the real deal will be Fifa 18"

    I got the impression he knew what he was talking about.

    And it sounds pretty obvious. Lets hope the 'worst frostbite' still will be better then the 'best ignite'.

    I guess one positive thing to glean from that is that NHL has the benefit of learning from the transition to Frostbite via FIFA and Madden and hopefully that helps alleviate some of the issues.

    Exactly. It's not always bad to be last in line. It must mean something!
  • jrago73
    748 posts Member
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    https://www.ea.com/frostbite/engine

    Had little to do.

    "Our workflows and runtimes are highly configurable and cover all disciplines of development including Audio, Animation, Cinematics, Scripting, Physics, Destruction, Rendering, VFX, and more."

    That means we get a new sound? New animations, and physics?

    Alot of this things must have an impact on the gameplay?

    Im somehow thought it - only - had with the visual to do. 🤔🙄


    Also read this from reddit. Old post. About Fifa going over to frostbite.

    "Also consider the fact that the transition of a game from an engine to another, is like rebuilding the game from scratch. The game will be buggy at the first days of release. Don't get excited so fast, and don't get disappointed either so fast. Give it a year, a release and it will show its full potential. At my opinion the real deal will be Fifa 18"

    I got the impression he knew what he was talking about.

    And it sounds pretty obvious. Lets hope the 'worst frostbite' still will be better then the 'best ignite'.

    I guess one positive thing to glean from that is that NHL has the benefit of learning from the transition to Frostbite via FIFA and Madden and hopefully that helps alleviate some of the issues.

    Exactly. It's not always bad to be last in line. It must mean something!

    You're the lowest priority?
    :wink:
  • Sega82mega
    4308 posts Member
    jrago73 wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    Sega82mega wrote: »
    https://www.ea.com/frostbite/engine

    Had little to do.

    "Our workflows and runtimes are highly configurable and cover all disciplines of development including Audio, Animation, Cinematics, Scripting, Physics, Destruction, Rendering, VFX, and more."

    That means we get a new sound? New animations, and physics?

    Alot of this things must have an impact on the gameplay?

    Im somehow thought it - only - had with the visual to do. 🤔🙄


    Also read this from reddit. Old post. About Fifa going over to frostbite.

    "Also consider the fact that the transition of a game from an engine to another, is like rebuilding the game from scratch. The game will be buggy at the first days of release. Don't get excited so fast, and don't get disappointed either so fast. Give it a year, a release and it will show its full potential. At my opinion the real deal will be Fifa 18"

    I got the impression he knew what he was talking about.

    And it sounds pretty obvious. Lets hope the 'worst frostbite' still will be better then the 'best ignite'.

    I guess one positive thing to glean from that is that NHL has the benefit of learning from the transition to Frostbite via FIFA and Madden and hopefully that helps alleviate some of the issues.

    Exactly. It's not always bad to be last in line. It must mean something!

    You're the lowest priority?
    :wink:

    Hehe Yup.. But never underestimate the power of 'Watch and learn'.. 😜
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