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True Performance Skating

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  • Let's get some video comparisons, you guys talk about how you feel the pivots are slow, let's see a comparison. Let's end the discussion!

    You guys make it seem as if EA didn't consult NHL players, and used them in the skating animations with there software traffic devices?

    Because they did, so to say you think the skating is slow and pivots slow etc this should be easy!

    Or is it like the stick lift video that gets posts and you call a stick tie up, a stick lifts lol!

    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    In TPS you see guys facing the wrong way, pivoting late (even though the pivots are sped up, they just don't occur the instant you want them to at times) players using two feet to stop even if they're gliding at low speed, sometimes turning when you actually just want to come to a stop.

    This, to me, is the fundamental problem with the way the skating engine works -- it regularly means that the player on the ice is doing something other than what the user wants him to do, even when the user isn't doing anything wrong. That's not good in a video game. And it's not realistic. IRL, Duncan Keith doesn't ever spin when he gets the puck and just wants to skate up ice. But in this game, players spin, or pivot the wrong way, or turn in a direction other than the one you want them to turn all the time. And sure, sometimes it's user error, but much of the time it isn't.

    And even the "user error" argument is odd. When I play Madden or FIFA, I never find my players running in directions, or pivoting in directions, other than the direction I want them to go. Why is this game designed so that that happens all the time?

    Because skating is a lot more complex than running on a field. And they want the movements to be 100% dictated by the animations. Those two combined are never going to work perfectly. They would need waaaaay more animations to do it. And the game is also half predicting where and how your player should turn and animate itself based on where the puck is and it out thinks itself. In my opinion.

    Modeling skating is more difficult than modeling running. But for an average NHL player, skating and pivoting in the direction they want to skate and pivot is second nature, just as making high-speed cuts is for the average NFL or pro soccer player. So skating in this game should be as fluid, and as responsive to user control, as running is in those other games. That doesn't mean the skating should be momentum-less, or without weight. But you shouldn't have a skating system that has players regularly doing things that the users don't want them to do.

  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Let's get some video comparisons, you guys talk about how you feel the pivots are slow, let's see a comparison. Let's end the discussion!

    You guys make it seem as if EA didn't consult NHL players, and used them in the skating animations with there software traffic devices?

    Because they did, so to say you think the skating is slow and pivots slow etc this should be easy!

    Or is it like the stick lift video that gets posts and you call a stick tie up, a stick lifts lol!

    Literally go watch any video of a power play and see how every player on the ice follows the puck, and then compare NHL 11 to NHL 17. With TPS, I doubt a team could go five seconds without anyone turning their back to the puck carrier for no reason. Go watch that video of Nyquist circling the zone in OT as just about the perfect example of how the skating engine in NHL should work.
  • Bmh245 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    In TPS you see guys facing the wrong way, pivoting late (even though the pivots are sped up, they just don't occur the instant you want them to at times) players using two feet to stop even if they're gliding at low speed, sometimes turning when you actually just want to come to a stop.

    This, to me, is the fundamental problem with the way the skating engine works -- it regularly means that the player on the ice is doing something other than what the user wants him to do, even when the user isn't doing anything wrong. That's not good in a video game. And it's not realistic. IRL, Duncan Keith doesn't ever spin when he gets the puck and just wants to skate up ice. But in this game, players spin, or pivot the wrong way, or turn in a direction other than the one you want them to turn all the time. And sure, sometimes it's user error, but much of the time it isn't.

    And even the "user error" argument is odd. When I play Madden or FIFA, I never find my players running in directions, or pivoting in directions, other than the direction I want them to go. Why is this game designed so that that happens all the time?

    Because skating is a lot more complex than running on a field. And they want the movements to be 100% dictated by the animations. Those two combined are never going to work perfectly. They would need waaaaay more animations to do it. And the game is also half predicting where and how your player should turn and animate itself based on where the puck is and it out thinks itself. In my opinion.

    Modeling skating is more difficult than modeling running. But for an average NHL player, skating and pivoting in the direction they want to skate and pivot is second nature, just as making high-speed cuts is for the average NFL or pro soccer player. So skating in this game should be as fluid, and as responsive to user control, as running is in those other games. That doesn't mean the skating should be momentum-less, or without weight. But you shouldn't have a skating system that has players regularly doing things that the users don't want them to do.

    No I definitely agree with you. That the functions of skating in the game should give us the control that an NHLer has over his own body or at least something as close as they can get. But the reason they haven't done that is because they're making form more important than function. Skating is too complex to have both. You have to take liberties I'm certain areas sometimes. The perfect example is with slower movements. In the TPS era, they're done with full length animations as if they're occurring at top speed, while in the prior model they floated and the animation of legs moving took a second to kick in at times. But also in the older skating they had lateral movements that were different depending on what speed you were moving (t-pushes, side steps, full on crossovers) which is actually more realistic. In TPS the movement is based entirely on the animation, and prior to it you could move even though the animation wasn't perfect. So if the animation isn't in the game, you're not going to be able to move in that way, even if it's a normal realistic move. The old engine took tiny shortcuts but have you the control in the end, but in TPS the shortcuts don't exist, the actual animation doesn't exist, so the control isn't there.
  • anyone that doesn't recognize that stick lifts are completely broken should just leave this forum now. EA themselves admitting it was broken and they were looking into it weeks ago.

    and yes TPS was a risky idea horribly executed and this is the first year they finally got it to acceptable levels although still has it's moments where it's a disaster.

    but the biggest problem in this game remains to be the animations. Not all of them but many just destroy the flow of this game. I mean **** there are moments where you can just let go of the controller and your EASHL player is playing by himself. This game is the opposite of total control. Good players know that the last thing you want to do is constantly be providing input because then you will basically be fighting against the animations. For best results hardly do any manual skating at all. cuts and dekes occasional directional taps or tight turns. When there's a loose puck the best thing you can do is let go of all controls.

    I figure give it a couple of years and you will join an EASHL game and just occasionally hit a button or two but in general the entire game will just be one long animation.
  • anyone that doesn't recognize that stick lifts are completely broken should just leave this forum now. EA themselves admitting it was broken and they were looking into it weeks ago.

    and yes TPS was a risky idea horribly executed and this is the first year they finally got it to acceptable levels although still has it's moments where it's a disaster.

    but the biggest problem in this game remains to be the animations. Not all of them but many just destroy the flow of this game. I mean **** there are moments where you can just let go of the controller and your EASHL player is playing by himself. This game is the opposite of total control. Good players know that the last thing you want to do is constantly be providing input because then you will basically be fighting against the animations. For best results hardly do any manual skating at all. cuts and dekes occasional directional taps or tight turns. When there's a loose puck the best thing you can do is let go of all controls.

    I figure give it a couple of years and you will join an EASHL game and just occasionally hit a button or two but in general the entire game will just be one long animation.

    While I dont think its quite THAT bad, I do find player control to be a bit to...animation heavy. Like I said, the explosiveness is missing
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Let's get some video comparisons, you guys talk about how you feel the pivots are slow, let's see a comparison. Let's end the discussion!

    You guys make it seem as if EA didn't consult NHL players, and used them in the skating animations with there software traffic devices?

    Because they did, so to say you think the skating is slow and pivots slow etc this should be easy!

    Or is it like the stick lift video that gets posts and you call a stick tie up, a stick lifts lol!

    First of all, all you have to do is watch an actual hockey game forget about the game itself completely and just pay close attention to how the skaters are moving. When they're moving, how they're moving and where the puck is. Then compare it to NHL and you quickly realize how rudimentary everything looks in the game. And how often players aren't facing in a direction an NHL player would be facing and reacting. Meanwhile in the old skating everyone who's competent in hockey are facing and following the play perfectly fine. AI included.

    The speed of pivots isn't necessarily the problem about the pivots. It's the fact that sometimes you can hold L2/LT to send a signal to the game that you want to backskate, yet it doesn't happen right away. You can already be travelling in the direction necessary, but it's not responsive. The same thing happens in other instances where you can gain control of the puck, and pivot or turn around when you don't want to. And I'm not making an elaborate camera setup in my bedroom and syncing and editing clips of my fingers pressing buttons alongside the gameplay.

    Did they consult current or former NHL players on the skating? I don't remember hearing anything about who was consulted while developing TPS. I'm not saying you're wrong but at the same time a skating coach and an NHL player are two very different things. A coaches job is literally to teach and dictate to people and explain to them how and why skating works and how and why it should be done a particular way. That's their job. The players job is to basically do what they're told. That doesn't necessarily mean they can teach or coach another person. That's why coaches exist. They can teach and dictate things better.

    There are literally videos of people standing next to a person while trying to sticklift whilst nothing is happening. I think I may even have a clip of that saved right now, and if I have time or care enough, I'll post it in the other thread (even though there is also literally a thread made that says the devs are aware of problems with the stick lift and are addressing them) but this ISN'T a stick lifting topic.

    Also I like how I and others take the time to completely respond to your posts, but you don't completely respond to full posts and just cherry pick parts of the discussion, and try to come across as if you know everything there is to know about the game. There's an ignore feature on this new forum right?
  • KoryDub wrote: »
    Although NHL17 introduced some fine tuning to the skating engine, and also added some new animations to improve "control" - I still feel as if something is just... off.

    In certain situations, my player will spin and face the wrong direction.

    Other times, controlling my skater seems clunky and unresponsive while on the flip side - certain animations tend to make me feel completely in control.

    What I have found is that there seems to be an odd approach to the sensitivity when using the Left Stick.

    There's Glide, and then there's Full Speed.

    I truly feel that instead of having a 1(glide) - 10(full speed), the controls and subsequent animations should reflect a wide range of speed - allowing more control over agility and balance.

    So, instead of just 1 & 10 on the range of speed input, you'd have a range of 1,3,5,7,10 based on the range you're currently holding left stick.

    Which the old engine had. And it did it well. Except for the fact that you could get from 1 to 10 too quickly. But you could go from a 10 to a 7 easily, you could move laterally at a 1 easily while facing the puck throughout the movement, etc.
  • I know this has been mentioned in the past but I'll mention it again, alot of problems that happen with TPS are also caused automations, especially for dmen. This is when the game will sort of pull you in a certain direction to anticipate a play without any input at all from you and when you try to adjust yourself it messes up the skating and gets all unresponsive n so on. Anyone who plays D regularly should know what I mean.

    I can understand that is must be very hard to code the response to map correctly 1:1 on a controller, especially with how fast hockey is as a sport and even more so in a videogame setting, but at what point do we have to say that physics should be toned down a bit for it to work effectively? At least in regards to skating?

    As Colon mentioned above correctly, TPS has much less animations compared to the old skating engine from NHL's past. So if the animation isn't there then that movement you want to do, no matter how correct it may be in theory (and easy irl), will not happen. TPS will find another way to get you there. Is the answer to add animations? Maybe. But the problem will always remain on how to map it properly to the controller.

    I do think removing the auto skate (auto anticipate) stuff should go away though. Do away with auto anything really.

    BlahQz - Owner of WikkiD6 - PS4
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Let's get some video comparisons, you guys talk about how you feel the pivots are slow, let's see a comparison. Let's end the discussion!

    You guys make it seem as if EA didn't consult NHL players, and used them in the skating animations with there software traffic devices?

    Because they did, so to say you think the skating is slow and pivots slow etc this should be easy!

    Or is it like the stick lift video that gets posts and you call a stick tie up, a stick lifts lol!

    COGs, we have eyes. Go play the game for two seconds on defense and you'll know what we're talking about. You clearly don't play good people, and you clearly don't play good 6s if you can't see how limited this skating engine works.

    The old skating engine needed weight, like Colon and I both said. The game played a more realistic version of hockey, with a "less realistic" (cause again, NHL players can pivot, face the puck, not take 6 crossovers to start skating, not do 360s while trying to face the puck, not do a hard stop to change directions while gliding, the list goes on) skating engine. You say pivoting is better for your figure skating you do while playing HUT, and division 9 6s. I'm telling you that this skating engine is limited, wonky, and for the most part broken for us competitive 6s players.

    This skating engine is artificially difficult, because it isn't fluid. It's the wonkiest movement engine I've ever seen in an AAA title. I am the first one who would advocate for skating to take skill, but TPS is not the solution. We NEED to be able to face the puck consistently. We know that DIV 7-10 HUT players are easy to shut down in this game. That doesn't mean the skating engine is good, nor does it mean defense is easier than ever. NHL 11 was "easy" per say, because I could face the puck, and have full control over my guy.

    Defending this failure of a skating engine doesn't make you good at the game, you know that right? People just think you're ridiculous, because you are in denial of well-known problems (lol the stick lift discussion. That got almost locked because people were making fun of your outrageous defense of an ADMITEDLY BROKEN FEATURE). Everyone that's ever played this game knows the limitations except you.

    Just stop trolling.
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Let's get some video comparisons, you guys talk about how you feel the pivots are slow, let's see a comparison. Let's end the discussion!

    You guys make it seem as if EA didn't consult NHL players, and used them in the skating animations with there software traffic devices?

    Because they did, so to say you think the skating is slow and pivots slow etc this should be easy!

    Or is it like the stick lift video that gets posts and you call a stick tie up, a stick lifts lol!

    First of all, all you have to do is watch an actual hockey game forget about the game itself completely and just pay close attention to how the skaters are moving. When they're moving, how they're moving and where the puck is. Then compare it to NHL and you quickly realize how rudimentary everything looks in the game. And how often players aren't facing in a direction an NHL player would be facing and reacting. Meanwhile in the old skating everyone who's competent in hockey are facing and following the play perfectly fine. AI included.

    The speed of pivots isn't necessarily the problem about the pivots. It's the fact that sometimes you can hold L2/LT to send a signal to the game that you want to backskate, yet it doesn't happen right away. You can already be travelling in the direction necessary, but it's not responsive. The same thing happens in other instances where you can gain control of the puck, and pivot or turn around when you don't want to. And I'm not making an elaborate camera setup in my bedroom and syncing and editing clips of my fingers pressing buttons alongside the gameplay.

    Did they consult current or former NHL players on the skating? I don't remember hearing anything about who was consulted while developing TPS. I'm not saying you're wrong but at the same time a skating coach and an NHL player are two very different things. A coaches job is literally to teach and dictate to people and explain to them how and why skating works and how and why it should be done a particular way. That's their job. The players job is to basically do what they're told. That doesn't necessarily mean they can teach or coach another person. That's why coaches exist. They can teach and dictate things better.

    There are literally videos of people standing next to a person while trying to sticklift whilst nothing is happening. I think I may even have a clip of that saved right now, and if I have time or care enough, I'll post it in the other thread (even though there is also literally a thread made that says the devs are aware of problems with the stick lift and are addressing them) but this ISN'T a stick lifting topic.

    Also I like how I and others take the time to completely respond to your posts, but you don't completely respond to full posts and just cherry pick parts of the discussion, and try to come across as if you know everything there is to know about the game. There's an ignore feature on this new forum right?

    Nicely said.

    It is also very annoying how far and easily you can get shoved around the ice, especially when trying to guard the front of the net. You can see players getting shoved as far as 30 feet out of position.

    Very annoying that you can't skate past a slower player when trying to back check. The opposing player just has to get in front of you and slow down to drastically hinder your effort to come back to your zone.

    Extremely annoyed that the game will move your player to "help" pick up the puck. Why the **** that was introduced is mind boggling and downright stupid.

    TPS is a mess, although for 17 there is a SLIGHT improvement. Just sucks that there are certain laws of physics that get thrown out the window the second you pick up the puck.

    And for anyone trying to understand Cogs, and then deciding to argue with him, you are just asking for a migraine and a nose bleed.


  • I do hate the way you can get pushed all over the ice by other skaters if that's what you meant. It's super annoying trying to pick a spot on the ice to stand and guard, and have either a teammate or opposing player push you away. There's no way to hold your ground, and then due to the clunky low speed control, getting back into a precise position takes longer than it should. And if you want to use precision skating to get you there, you're locked into an animation and can't fluidly move around.
  • I do hate the way you can get pushed all over the ice by other skaters if that's what you meant. It's super annoying trying to pick a spot on the ice to stand and guard, and have either a teammate or opposing player push you away. There's no way to hold your ground, and then due to the clunky low speed control, getting back into a precise position takes longer than it should. And if you want to use precision skating to get you there, you're locked into an animation and can't fluidly move around.

    Exactly! Defense is sooo clunky. Can't hold your ground, can't face the puck, can't make subtle adjustments, but don't worry! COGs said it's fine because he beats div 9 players in HUT 1-0 so we should all stop complaining, and proclaim him as the only true NHL God. Discussion over.
  • I agree the computer tries to pull you out of position sometimes and that stick lift is flawed, I'm happier i don't have to listen to player's whine about how they got a 2 minute for high sticking because it happened once out of the 100 times they did it though. Overall i find the skating a lot more fluid for being a d.
  • I do hate the way you can get pushed all over the ice by other skaters if that's what you meant. It's super annoying trying to pick a spot on the ice to stand and guard, and have either a teammate or opposing player push you away. There's no way to hold your ground, and then due to the clunky low speed control, getting back into a precise position takes longer than it should. And if you want to use precision skating to get you there, you're locked into an animation and can't fluidly move around.

    That is precisely what I meant, plus what you added.
  • nickythewop
    451 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    HipNotiiCx wrote: »
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    Let's get some video comparisons, you guys talk about how you feel the pivots are slow, let's see a comparison. Let's end the discussion!

    You guys make it seem as if EA didn't consult NHL players, and used them in the skating animations with there software traffic devices?

    Because they did, so to say you think the skating is slow and pivots slow etc this should be easy!

    Or is it like the stick lift video that gets posts and you call a stick tie up, a stick lifts lol!

    This skating engine is artificially difficult, because it isn't fluid. It's the wonkiest movement engine I've ever seen in an AAA title. I am the first one who would advocate for skating to take skill, but TPS is not the solution. We NEED to be able to face the puck consistently. We know that DIV 7-10 HUT players are easy to shut down in this game. That doesn't mean the skating engine is good, nor does it mean defense is easier than ever. NHL 11 was "easy" per say, because I could face the puck, and have full control over my guy.

    That's the conclusion I keep coming to as well. For a fun comparison, getting the skating engine to do exactly what you want is probably more difficult than aerials in Rocket League. Even after thousands of hours playing, I still find my skater going in directions that I didn't want because it is that unpredictable sometimes, and a brief twitch on the controller can launch an animation that take half a second and completely changes your skater's velocity. It amplifies the effects of some inputs, while ignoring others with no sort of way to know what's going on behind the scenes.

    Imagine you had a computer mouse that would guess at what you were trying to do, and 35% of the time it did exactly what you wanted, 60% of the time it did mostly what you wanted, and 5% of the time it something you didn't want at all. That's how this engine feels. Just let me control my player at all times. If I change direction on my joystick, it's because I want to go that direction immediately, not the next time it's convenient for the game.
  • TPS (momentum) in some degree is built in input delay. They artificially program in a slow start to skating followed by little delays in momentum when turning/pivoting, etc. This is why when you have any latency in online modes you get a double whammy effect of input delay.

    Skating should be immediate response movements like NHL 12 and earlier. If you pushed your direction stick to the left it should go left immediately!!! But with TPS it doesn't, it calculates gravity/mass = it takes a second for momentum to get going, etc. This results in non responsive movements, slight delays in all commands. We need immediate movement response, get rid of TPS.
  • Shouldn't you have to calculate momentum shifts when turning and have it affect acceleration and deceleration? That reminds me of 2k hockey where you could easily break any angle of momentum you gained, it had an arcade feel to it where the strength and mass of a player didn't feel like they played any factors in the gameplay.
  • I'm impressed Colon and some others are still arguing this for everyone. I agree 100% with some of the things that have been said by Colon as well as others (Nicky, Hipnotic, Sgiz1) in this thread.

    Threads like these are the only thing that give me hope that there could eventually be changes to the game that give our team a reason to start buying it again. This TPS system has just been a disaster on the current gen systems (wasn't great last gen either, but at least you had some form of control).
  • mikeq67
    141 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    Zeroshift wrote: »
    I'm impressed Colon and some others are still arguing this for everyone. I agree 100% with some of the things that have been said by Colon as well as others (Nicky, Hipnotic, Sgiz1) in this thread.

    Threads like these are the only thing that give me hope that there could eventually be changes to the game that give our team a reason to start buying it again. This TPS system has just been a disaster on the current gen systems (wasn't great last gen either, but at least you had some form of control).

    Agreed. The skating sucks. Im sorry but it does. I was excited about when it first came out, but as has been clearly pointed out, the skating system has fell flat and has only gotten worse over the years. Time to take a new approach. As someone else mentioned though, I am worried they have built too much of the game on this god awful system. Whether it be all this "seamless puck pickup" nonsense and all the animations or what.

    Control>>>>no control.

    But as I type that it makes perfect sense this game has kept this skating engine in. They are all about less human control in the game each year.
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