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True Performance Skating

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  • Bump this forever.
  • SiIkyJohnson
    316 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    HipNotiiCx wrote: »



    Absolutely ridiculous...

    /rant

    Spent more time attacking then providing video evidence to add to the discussion. Comparing real NHL skating to NHL 17. Lets get some video of the issues your having, so we can break it down ? Isnt that the way to improve the game ? And so EA dev's are able to see what it is your having issues with ?

    As for how I feel the the skating engine has improved, the strafing side to side has improved tremendously, as said before this is because your now given the tools to use, poke check works, stick tie ups and of course hitting. These work now because the puck carriers dont have invisible puck control. Playing a patient game allows for you to shut down players much easier compared to years past. The skating is much smoother, along with controller input recognizing the puck carrier and your trying to do, to limit his ice.

    This has been a huge improvement playing the 1-on-1 rush hasnt been easier, in the series ever.

    Just an fyi the TPS was developed from using NHL skaters since 2012 or even sooner, to bring back an old engine that wasnt very realistic, is kinda backwards dont you think ? Maybe we should get some clips from NHL 11 and compare it to NHL 17 ?

    Attached is some clip I found on youtube from NHL 11, not very realistic eh bud ?



    oh man that game and skating was so much fun. RIP NHL.

    edit: it almost brings a tear to my eye seeing how good the game used to be. think of all the modes we had on top of excellent gameplay. no wonder those years sold like hot cakes.
  • Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why EA did this initially. There was a ton of feedback that EA needed to make the game more of a simulation and get rid of the arcade feeling. TPS was a natural next step to create that sort of realism and build a game that would look as close to real life as possible. Unfortunately, I feel like after 2-3 years of waiting for them to get the kinks worked out, it became clear to some that what TPS had taken away in terms of control was far more important than the benefits it had.

    Adding to the confusion was the fact that realism seemed to be applied fairly inconsistently in the game. On one hand, you have EA adding things like TPS, blocking saves for goalies, adding tie-ups and net battles, and incidental contact. On the other, you've got auto-saucer passes, ridiculous interference and boarding penalties that go uncalled, removing collisions with the boards when players miss a check, and goalie fights. It's frustrating because you have no clue where EA is trying to take this game.

    Is NHL an arcade game, or is it a simulation? If it's somewhere in the middle, how is EA deciding what features fit with their grand vision? These are the questions I wish EA would answer.
  • If these issues are so prevalent, where is the video evidence ? Nicky mentioned Nyguist, in OT. lol ok lets break that down,

    Nyquist is considered one of the best skaters in the NHL, during a 3-on-3 OT. How can we compare that to NHL 17 ? (


    You would need NHL caliber players who understand a defensive strategy first In club. But either way one of the issues guys talk about is facing the puck carrier and vision control.

    Lets first highlight, what Nicky brought up, Detroit vs Ottawa what it is Ottawa is doing. They are playing a parameter man-on-man box formation.

    As Nyquist picks the puck up and skates to the blue 00:02 - 00:05, the player who is defending him, is parallel to him with a slight degree off, as Nyquist skates the parameter, not facing him.

    Turris is facing the other teams end, not allowing Nyquist to move to the net, not facing the puck carrier. Methot is pickin up his man and not sure who the dman in front of the net is.

    00:08 puck carrier defender is behind and parallel, with his stick in the air (this is not a stick lift lol) Its more a of a tool players use to direct there opponent to an area, and disrupt there stride maybe initiate body contact.

    Turris is now faced in the corner, and both d-men are facing 90 degrees in comparison to the net and really facing the puck carrier but the area.


    If you guys had vision control the way you wanted it, everyone would be facing the puck and not covering there man. As shown in the clip facing the puck is not how you play defense. Each players plays differently and your able to face where you want, when you dont have the puck, you dont need a button to face where you want. This is to allow your future movement easier because you are already facing that direction, with the anticipation of where the puck can go, not where it currently is.

    Now I know vision control is one thing, we have many aspects to talk about, I cant provide any video captures right now because Im part of the Xbox preview program ( I get updates before everyone unless of course you have the preview program kinda like a beta) and the record feature isnt working properly currently for me (dont worry this will be fixed for everyone once the official release happens). So Im not able to provide any video evidence, post patch.

    Look as I said before their our things that need addressing (biggest pet peeve dipsy doodling with the puck) but to say that TPS needs to completely scrapped is very short sighted. EA has been working on this engine since at least 2011 ( you could tell the difference in skating in 2012) and official release in 2013.

    Im trying to be unbias here, but I just wanna highlight something. When you have most people who come to this thread and scratch each others back, how are we to develop good suggestions for EA ? Because if they took what was being discussed in this thread old forum and new, why havent they tackled the skating the way the community feels ? Video evidence is a must.

    Either way, lets get some evidence lets discuss the videos, instead of opinions. Because as of right now we have no empirical evidence to provide to EA, its all emotions, and in the court of EA, you would have some pretty powerful stuff to persuaded them differently.


    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • Look at that video, ignoring that those kids are awful, everyone facing the way they wanna face, rebounds on slap shots instead of weak **** wristers. Everything made more sense.
  • ColonScoper
    157 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    If these issues are so prevalent, where is the video evidence ? Nicky mentioned Nyguist, in OT. lol ok lets break that down,

    At 00:02 every skater on the ice is for all intents and purposes facing the puck. If you want to argue that the person directly attacking Nyquist is facing three degrees off the puck then that's fine. I, and others here in this thread and in the old one have conceded that everything cannot work 100% true to real life. It's a game. The point is, he's facing the general direction of the puck, can move laterally on the fly if need be, and transition into skating forward or backwards in the blink of an eye. Not sure where you're seeing Turris face directly up ice while Nyquist is on the boards. And you WOULDN'T need vision control to do that if that's what you wanted to do. You simply wouldn't press the button......

    The part where you mention the two other defenders facing 90 degrees while the puck is in the corner (since you're nitpicking angles in your first observation I'll point out that's definitely NOT 90 degrees) lasts for all of 1 second and then they turn again to face the puck as its taken behind the net. And again IF the two defensemen wanted to face a direction similar to the one you're talking about all they have to do is LET GO OF THE BUTTON. See how that works? You wouldn't be forced to have vision control engaged at all times. Only when you want it.

    That clip clearly shows the defending players looking directly at the puck 98.59999% of the time. Thanks for wasting everyone's time "analyzing" that clip for us and pointing out the fraction of a second where a defender isn't facing the puck, which if vision control worked, you'd still be able to do. Your pro hockey experience really saved the day on this one.

    And also, the old thread had plenty of videos, and gifs and SUGGESTIONS on how to make the skating better.
  • This a game, not real hockey, please stop using real hockey as proof of how to play a video game.

    If we want to face the puck and not the man, we should be able to with vision control, period.

    If we want immediate responsive with our controls, go left, right stop, forward, turn right, turn left, etc. the commands should register immediately, not be delayed by momentum made worse by online latency.

    A slow paced, simulation with wonky pivots based on momentum cross ups, and slow acceleration and turns based on mass, etc. which results in shoot the puck on net from all over before you turn it over and hope to get luck deflections and bounces may be more real, but it is not more fun.

    The golden days of this game 09,10,11,12, you had responsive skating, vision control that put you position you wanted to be in, enough freedom to get passes thru defenders to promote passing/teamwork to work the magic for a pretty tic tac toe backdoor one timers, fast paced, is way more fun.

  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Because as of right now we have no empirical evidence to provide to EA, its all emotions, and in the court of EA, you would have some pretty powerful stuff to persuaded them differently.

    My favorite part was where you said that we have no empirical evidence, when observations about experiences are pretty much the definition of empirical evidence. Surely, you'll have some pedantic defense on how you're right, but the wiki is pretty clear.

    Thanks for finding that video, showing how NHL players are easily following the play from "one of the best skaters in the NHL, during a 3-on-3 OT."
  • Youratv
    260 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    This a game, not real hockey, please stop using real hockey as proof of how to play a video game.

    If we want to face the puck and not the man, we should be able to with vision control, period.

    If we want immediate responsive with our controls, go left, right stop, forward, turn right, turn left, etc. the commands should register immediately, not be delayed by momentum made worse by online latency.

    A slow paced, simulation with wonky pivots based on momentum cross ups, and slow acceleration and turns based on mass, etc. which results in shoot the puck on net from all over before you turn it over and hope to get luck deflections and bounces may be more real, but it is not more fun.

    The golden days of this game 09,10,11,12, you had responsive skating, vision control that put you position you wanted to be in, enough freedom to get passes thru defenders to promote passing/teamwork to work the magic for a pretty tic tac toe backdoor one timers, fast paced, is way more fun.

    I disagree to an extent. I like playing methodical hockey where positioning and timing are rewarded and when you make a mistake you should suffer the consequences of another player who intends to capitalize on it. Latency is it's own issue. Goalie is it's own issue. 16 had that problem and sometimes in 17 where the puck teleports through other player's and their stick. Team work and passing are always promoted. You can still work the cycle. It's all still there.

  • Thanks for finding that video, showing how NHL players are easily following the play from "one of the best skaters in the NHL, during a 3-on-3 OT."

    Which can be done in this game, no one pressured the puck carrier, they gave him room.

    Colon, I referred to the time sequences for the fist 6-8 seconds.

    00:02-00:08

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    As stated in my above post these players were anticipated where the play is gonna be, not where it already is. They have to think ahead of the play.

    You can do this in NHL 17 and you don't need a button to face where you wanna face. You very easily are able to use the Left Stick to face where you wanna face. If your standing still, or gliding your very easily able to face where you want to face.

    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • ColonScoper
    157 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    COGSx86 wrote: »

    Thanks for finding that video, showing how NHL players are easily following the play from "one of the best skaters in the NHL, during a 3-on-3 OT."

    Which can be done in this game, no one pressured the puck carrier, they gave him room.

    Colon, I referred to the time sequences for the fist 6-8 seconds.

    00:02-00:08

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    As stated in my above post these players were anticipated where the play is gonna be, not where it already is. They have to think ahead of the play.

    You can do this in NHL 17 and you don't need a button to face where you wanna face. You very easily are able to use the Left Stick to face where you wanna face. If your standing still, or gliding your very easily able to face where you want to face.

    Again what I said in my original response to you is still 100% valid. You'd also be able to face wherever you chose to face if vision control faced the puck. But you'd also be able to actively track the puck, turn and skate laterally in relationships to it. It would be consistent and reliable. In my original post in this thread I suggested EA leave an option for those who think the current skating is fine to not be forced to use a retooled vision control button via the settings although I 100% guarantee the people who say that now, would use it. Yes you can use the left stick to face where you want, but without vision control how is the game supposed to know when you want to move laterally? Why do you think vision control was even created? You just aren't grasping how or why it's useful. You yourself have said that you haven't played defense since 09. So why are you here?

    Edit: also I clicked the very first image you linked and yeah they're all just about facing the puck. Don't look at their feet, look at where their chest's are facing. Pretty much directly at the puck. But that's not the point as I've already said, if you want to face a few degrees off the puck, you can use vision control to track it, and let go of the button to stop tracking it simple as that.
  • I fully agree with those who made the posts outlining in detail why TPS needs to go. I would write more, but you literally took the words right out of my mouth.

    Count me in as another vote for getting rid of TPS. This franchise WILL NOT get better until we have fidelity between what we do on our controller and what our players actually do on the ice.

    The proof is in the numbers: this game's online was thriving before TPS came along and now it is a ghost town in comparison. Why? Nobody wants to play a wonky, clunky sports game in which you never feel in control of your players. And in a fast paced sport like hockey in which instantaneous decisions need to be made in fractions of a second, no one has time to be fighting with the controller (TPS) or guessing where the next "seamless" puck pickup animation will take them. It's not fun, it's not realistic, and it's not condusive to competitive gameplay.
  • ColonScoper
    157 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    The "left stick is fine for facing movements" is complete garbage. First of all, no its not hard to use the Left Stick to turn and face the puck. But the fact that low speed movements are so over exaggerated, you take a partial stride when you do turn (which firstly, looks ridiculous, and can easily get you out of position) And if the puck is moving very quickly you're tapping your analog stick to track it, when it would be much simpler to have a button that will simply rotate your player to track it. And vision control itself while engaged is what would signal to the game that you want to move laterally while facing a certain direction. Without it, you have Precision Skating. Why do you think precision skating is so awful? Theres no vision control alongside it. Where you can only use it while you are stopped. It locks you into a direction, and then locks you into an animation. Vision control itself would be a simple way to tell the game to perform lateral movements which in theory you should be able to do much more fluidly, transition in and out of those animations at anytime and pivot to skate in a forward direction. The only reason anyone is against this idea is because they do not understand the concept. And that's fine. You don't want those basic fundamental skating mechanics? Fine, EA can have a controller setting that keeps things how they are if they took the time to do so. It's primarily a defensive feature but has positives on offense as well.
  • Youratv
    260 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    I understand it and i think what your suggesting would weigh much more heavily in favor of offensive behaviour. Cutting in any direction you want without penalizing your directional momentum a good player will walk all over a good defenseman.
  • ColonScoper
    157 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    Youratv wrote: »
    I understand it and i think what your suggesting would weigh much more heavily in favor of offensive behaviour. Cutting in any direction you want without penalizing your directional momentum a good player will walk all over a good defenseman.

    Obviously you don't understand it because what you just said makes no sense. You didn't provide any examples or anything to support what you just said. Nobody said anything about cutting in any direction without penalty. So clearly you aren't picking up what I'm putting down.

    Also, as it currently stands, the offense has way more control over their skating than the defense because they're primarily just skating in a forward direction all game, and while in possession of the puck, can already make cuts and perform dekes to move laterally and stick handle quicker than most NHL players realistically can.
  • Then present it lamens terms because that's the way i interpret what your saying. If I'm wrong about it then so be it.
  • Youratv wrote: »
    I understand it and i think what your suggesting would weigh much more heavily in favor of offensive behaviour. Cutting in any direction you want without penalizing your directional momentum a good player will walk all over a good defenseman.

    the only reason this is true is because of how bad the basic skating engine is. just use animation based cuts that allow you to deke side to side or make 45 degree cuts and everything works great, unfortunately dmen are forced to combat that with a wonky broken skating system. best way to defend is to keep a gap and defend the puck although now stick lifts are broken, for years it's way to easy to just toe drag behind you as the player poke checks and draw a penalty or at least not lose it and while doing any of these things most guys are very difficult to knock off the puck.

    this is the single biggest reason guys don't like playing D. it's so easy for even a power forward to dance all around you because of how poor the skating system is. Which is funny because they introduced it because people complained about offensive skating. Just like almost everything EA has done with this series... the results rarely match up with the expectations. quite often the opposite happens and things are worse.
  • I don't think I've explained it in an overly complicated way. The majority of people here understand exactly what I'm talking about. Also, I've said that the problem with the old skating was that there wasn't mass to your skater. That's probably the only thing really that was wrong with it performance wise. I've explained what the visual problems it had but I don't care if everything looks 100% exactly like a real skater because all that's going to do is limit how your can skate and move because there's too many animations to add to the game for how complicated skating can be. That's evidenced by the game we've been playing for the past 4 years
  • nickythewop
    451 posts Member
    edited September 2016
    Youratv wrote: »
    Then present it lamens terms because that's the way i interpret what your saying. If I'm wrong about it then so be it.

    Everyone here seems to understand it except you...
  • Youratv wrote: »
    Then present it lamens terms because that's the way i interpret what your saying. If I'm wrong about it then so be it.

    Everyone here seems to understand it except you...

    And Cogs
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