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Alienating the Long-term Fans

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  • Lynch-CAN wrote: »
    As far as the defensive discussion goes, puck carriers need way less agility, they can be at full speed and turn an instant 90 degrees to avoid hits or poke checks just by toe dragging the puck or holding puck protect, players without the puck have to make wide turns at full speed, this doesn't make sense. Turning while holding puck protect also bounces about 90% of hits off harmlessly, not even a nudge or loss of possession.

    Defense have enough tools, offense just has too many exploits in my opinion. It feels like low speed hits were great in the BETA and just aren't in the game anymore, I realise you guys say hitting hasn't been changed since the BETA but that's just how it feels to me.

    In the BETA I was getting 100% defense rating almost every game, never below 80%; now I get 50-60% when I play a good game on a win, and that has to do a lot with the coach constantly blaming defense for "missing a check" on every single goal that goes in, which should also be fixed as it takes exp from you at the end and just makes you look like a bad dman, even when you play your position flawlessly.

    That's because poke checks would actually move the puck away from the guy carrying it.

    True, now they are either picked right back up or go right to his teammate.
  • Ben I get it. I really do. Let's take 16 as an example. Pass receptions were for the most part, pretty horrid. Furthermore, it is something that cannot be practiced. So for 17, you guys listened and they are actually pretty good. Hard passes from a small distance are bobbled, as logic says it should. Fine, it is fixed.

    Now take forwards. For some reason, you guys decided to make dekes even easier to pull off and it is insanely effective vs d men. Seriously, all they need to do is stay along the boards where there is 0 friction or penalty for hugging them, or they simply pull off a really easy deke and boom, d man is completely gimped. Forcing players to the outside and along boards is a widely used strategy in real life, but pretty much useless in the game. You failed to answer the question of how many people spam the X button, and how effective it is. You have given forwards every single tool to dominate and be effective, and in the process, d men simply cannot complete on a consistent basis.

    Goalies are still the main balancing point for games. This is simply not the best way to do it and honestly, it leads to alot of frustration. Rather, D men should consistently have the tools to shut forwards down and goalies should not be making 12 "saves of the week" in a single game. It should take skill to get to the net rather than abusing a system.

    Knocking a player down also needs a huge fix. They practically get up and retake the puck every single time. Poke checks are also getting way less effective as forwards just simply reach back and pick the puck right back up, mid-stride. It's as if there is no penalty to forwards when a good defensive move is made. And when poke checks do work and actually dislodge a puck, most times it will just go to another player on his team. Right on his stick. Most times you can swear it is designed that way so Little Timmy can keep the pressure and score his goal.

    So my question is, why are forwards endowed with so much power? Why is it so easy to break away from defenders? Why is it so easy to get to the net? For the last 5 years, team play and passing simply is not required. It is just easier to hog the puck, force your way to the net and pull off that highlight goal. Why is it when a player picks up the puck, he suddenly becomes the best skater on the ice? Do you find it normal that having to skate around while trying to keep control of the puck makes you a better skater than any other single player without a puck? I certainly don't. Surely you have seen the videos of players that can rag the puck for minutes at a time? Why has NOTHING been done to address since since TPS was introduced? You talk about balancing the game, and seriously, I try to find evidence of this in each iteration and simply don't see it. Forwards are a priority, plain and simple.

    Hockey is a team game. Normally, playing as a team in all 3 zones leads to wins. In your game, this simply does not apply. Being selfish is too overly rewarded when in fact it should be penalized.

    So while I do get that you are passionate and enjoy your work, and I most certainly appreciate your presence here (even more so that it is done in your free time) I simply feel like the NHL series is a sloppy and messy product. It does not give me the same pleasure it used to and maybe I am just less interested overall, regardless of the product. However, I find that unlikely as I am still very passionate about the sport that I grew up with and still play to this day. I do wish success to your team, but for the time being, I will have to stay away from the game and hope it gets pulled together asap.
  • I'm honestly thankful that Ben has said what he said. It's probably the most EA has ever said publicly about the future of the game at all. Normally, the only things we get are marketing ****, and the gamechangers all saying how much fun they had at EA. It's great to see them say anything about the arcade/sim debate that's been going on the last ~5 years. I'm disappointed that they're going the path they chose, but I've done all I can in that regard. I love the NHL series, and hope that one day I play a demo/beta where everything clicks again like it did before, but I'm done buying a yearly release of this based on the merits of previous games.

    I'd love to help the EA team, but I'm a systems architect/admin and not a developer. If you need a guy that's spent years working on some of the largest/fastest databases providing real-time access, you let me know. If not, you guys have fun developing whatever it is that you've decided was important.
  • Stovetop9620
    455 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    Ben I get it. I really do. Let's take 16 as an example. Pass receptions were for the most part, pretty horrid. Furthermore, it is something that cannot be practiced. So for 17, you guys listened and they are actually pretty good. Hard passes from a small distance are bobbled, as logic says it should. Fine, it is fixed.

    Now take forwards. For some reason, you guys decided to make dekes even easier to pull off and it is insanely effective vs d men. Seriously, all they need to do is stay along the boards where there is 0 friction or penalty for hugging them, or they simply pull off a really easy deke and boom, d man is completely gimped. Forcing players to the outside and along boards is a widely used strategy in real life, but pretty much useless in the game. You failed to answer the question of how many people spam the X button, and how effective it is. You have given forwards every single tool to dominate and be effective, and in the process, d men simply cannot complete on a consistent basis.

    Goalies are still the main balancing point for games. This is simply not the best way to do it and honestly, it leads to alot of frustration. Rather, D men should consistently have the tools to shut forwards down and goalies should not be making 12 "saves of the week" in a single game. It should take skill to get to the net rather than abusing a system.

    Knocking a player down also needs a huge fix. They practically get up and retake the puck every single time. Poke checks are also getting way less effective as forwards just simply reach back and pick the puck right back up, mid-stride. It's as if there is no penalty to forwards when a good defensive move is made. And when poke checks do work and actually dislodge a puck, most times it will just go to another player on his team. Right on his stick. Most times you can swear it is designed that way so Little Timmy can keep the pressure and score his goal.

    So my question is, why are forwards endowed with so much power? Why is it so easy to break away from defenders? Why is it so easy to get to the net? For the last 5 years, team play and passing simply is not required. It is just easier to hog the puck, force your way to the net and pull off that highlight goal. Why is it when a player picks up the puck, he suddenly becomes the best skater on the ice? Do you find it normal that having to skate around while trying to keep control of the puck makes you a better skater than any other single player without a puck? I certainly don't. Surely you have seen the videos of players that can rag the puck for minutes at a time? Why has NOTHING been done to address since since TPS was introduced? You talk about balancing the game, and seriously, I try to find evidence of this in each iteration and simply don't see it. Forwards are a priority, plain and simple.

    Hockey is a team game. Normally, playing as a team in all 3 zones leads to wins. In your game, this simply does not apply. Being selfish is too overly rewarded when in fact it should be penalized.

    So while I do get that you are passionate and enjoy your work, and I most certainly appreciate your presence here (even more so that it is done in your free time) I simply feel like the NHL series is a sloppy and messy product. It does not give me the same pleasure it used to and maybe I am just less interested overall, regardless of the product. However, I find that unlikely as I am still very passionate about the sport that I grew up with and still play to this day. I do wish success to your team, but for the time being, I will have to stay away from the game and hope it gets pulled together asap.

    Mega, on point. Very well said. Especially the part about forwards being able to hug the boards and not get any penalty for it.
  • NHL Dev

    You keep saying the way to change the game is to get a job at EA, you know that's not how it gets done, it gets done by lobbying current Devs, such as you to be our voice of reason when you get to work.

    You mentioned you can't go back to the old skating engine, however you did mention you can tune the game very easily.

    So.... Why can't you tune the TPS, turn if all the way down to get as close to the old skating engine as possible? Remove as much momentum and delay as possible which will reduce the clunky feeling. This is something you CAN do!

    As I suggested, why not pick a date like Jan. 1st, start advertising today right now that come Jan. 1st TPS will be turned all the way down/off for one month, just one friggin month is all we need and EA needs to get a full community sample size opinion on how the game feels. In the last week of Jan send out a questionare/poll and monitor all EA NHL message boards to get your feedback.

    If more people enjoy the TPS turned down better, keep it that way!!! If not go back to normal.

    Simple!

    Just do it! "as Nike says"
  • "it was with the intention of moving the tech forward, fixing existing issues and removing barriers that the old system"

    Many bad things were done with good intentions, is the point. Barriers were not removed, the un intended consequence is you added barriers to the game with TPS, barriers so bad it is alienating your most ardent and loyal fans of the NHL game series.

    The problem with discussions sometimes is that it becomes a perpetual discussion with no action, lets come together from this discussion with action.

    You mentioned its easy to tune this game at will, get with your team and tune TPS all the way down to remove as much weight, momentum, clunkyness as possible, just do it for one month and let us play like this for one month. This will give you a sample size of the entire NHL community in real time actually playing the game for all parts of the world from different perspectives, which is a much better case study than a handful of people at a gamechanger session.

    This can be done, it can be done easily, it can be done quickly, all it needs is approval to be done, lets go get that approval, its just one month trial!! We the customers are asking this so all EA employees are off the hook as you are giving us what we want, get it done!
  • NHLDev wrote: »

    Now im a nobody around here who has read this thread with great interest the past week or so.....im a over fifty gamer who has played nhl for many years though on xbox only since 11 released.

    Im in the crowd who feels the game tanked with the introduction of tps and have found myself playing less and less with each annual release

    Its seems to me that the developers cant acknowledge that tps may be a mistake and are unwilling or unable to satisfy both camps with the tech available to them.

    Forgot who suggested a 11 remaster, but i think that is a brilliant idea and would go a long way to satisfy both points of view

    To suggest that nick crowdfund a game if he doesn't like the current direction of the series reeks of arrogance and indifference to their customers concerns.

    A wise guy i once worked for once said to me

    Business goes where its invited, and stays where it is appreciated

    I will be investing my gaming dollars next august in a company that is interested in satisfying ALL of their customers concerns..... not just the ones who agree with the current direction the game is headed

    Terry - That is actually where it is interesting. I get that text on a website can be taken far different than what was intended but I assume responsibility for how it was taken as that is the reality.

    I am on this site because I do care what everyone has to say. There is a big difference in that though and actually being able to make everyone happy. If we could just put in some fixes tomorrow that would make everyone happy, believe me, we would. Supporting multiple game styles and difficulty levels is a ton of extra work but we do that because we know there are a lot of interests and skill levels out there.

    And for the record, all I was saying in the response to Nick was that there are reasons behind each decision we make and that change and/or making everyone happy isn't as easy as he was making it out to be. I would gladly welcome anyone that was able to get hired to join the team in helping make a better product but I am not actually asking him to go start a kickstarter instead of make suggestions here. it was hyperbole that although anything is possible, it doesn't mean it is that easy to do.

    Point taken that in my role, I can't take the same liberties on the boards as others without it being taken more harsh.




    Thank you sir for taking the time to acknowledge my post and address my concerns.

    It is worth noting that I see your point regarding that written text can be easily misconstrued from a writers true intent of whatever he is trying to say.

    I should also state that you are in a impossible position trying to balance the gameplay to everyone's liking while at the same time balancing the point of views on the forums. I wish you noting but good luck in that endeavor. I certainly wouldn't want that job.

    I hope a happy medium is eventually achieved for all the schools of thought out there on how the game can be improved. I look forward to praising the developers instead of leveling criticism at a gentleman who obviously cares about his work

    Good day sir

  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    You'll have a great playing hockey game if you can fix the clunky FEEL of maneuvering/strafing/facing without the puck.


    Again, it isn't just clunky without the puck. It's clunky with the puck at low speeds, too. Here are a couple of examples of what I mean. In the first, I get the puck and I'm just trying to skate to the left, to curl up ice. But instead of that happening smoothly, it's all herky jerky, and you can see the player's body swings back to the right before finally going left, een though my controller never changes direction:



    To me, that looks nothing like an NHL player skating. And it's also taking control away from me -- I'm not ever pointing the controller to the right, but the player moves in that direction, I guess because the game engine is telling him to.

    Second example is similar. I make a little pass to Sittler (made weird by interference from the boards), and try to skate up ice. Again, you can see the controller is pointing up ice the entire time. But instead of simply pivoting and skating up and to the left, which is what the controller is telling him to do, Sittler sort of makes a halfway turn so that he's facing down ice, before correcting himself and skating forward. And that little momentum shift gives the opposing winger a chance to catch up to him:



    Now, I'm not arguing that players should be able to go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. But what I don't get are those weird weight swings in the opposite direction from where the controller is pointing, which happen in every game. Maybe I'm missing something, and that is the way NHL players move. But to me, it seems unrealistic, and more important it feels clunky and stiff, and those low-speed problems have a lot to do with why skating in this game is just unsatisfying.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    I don't know.... I think that in the end, the only way to settle this debate is for Ben and his team to come up with a way to give most people what they want by splitting up the game into different types/skill levels online. There's certainly enough people that play online to allow for it. And even if that skews the groups into mostly one camp or the other, the total amount should be the same.

    In fact, maybe it brings IN new customers by doing this if they know they can just hop into EASHL drop-ins or clubs and play their preferred style of hockey, with tweaks to the TPS to be fully on or toned down. I know a lot of players on my side that stopped playing after NHL 15 because they felt the game wasn't simulation enough (mostly NHL 2K hardcore players). If EA said tomorrow that they would introduce a new lobby for Hardcore players where the difficulty was set to Super Star and the sliders were on FULL SIM, they'd purchase the game in a heartbeat and our club would double in size.

    Obviously, the other side would be that people that are not as hardcore and would like something less convoluted and more "fun" could have it as well and play with other users who think like them.

    Because at the end, that's why we play this game with others, it's in the hopes of finding like-minded people to play with, not to have to deal with juvenile brats who try to ruin it for us. Or, on the flip side, the juvenile brats don't want to have to be saddled up playing with and against "stay at home dads" that will be constantly scolding them on their lack of hockey know how; "Just let me play how I want to GRANDPA!!!".
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    "it was with the intention of moving the tech forward, fixing existing issues and removing barriers that the old system"

    Many bad things were done with good intentions, is the point. Barriers were not removed, the un intended consequence is you added barriers to the game with TPS, barriers so bad it is alienating your most ardent and loyal fans of the NHL game series.

    The problem with discussions sometimes is that it becomes a perpetual discussion with no action, lets come together from this discussion with action.

    You mentioned its easy to tune this game at will, get with your team and tune TPS all the way down to remove as much weight, momentum, clunkyness as possible, just do it for one month and let us play like this for one month. This will give you a sample size of the entire NHL community in real time actually playing the game for all parts of the world from different perspectives, which is a much better case study than a handful of people at a gamechanger session.

    This can be done, it can be done easily, it can be done quickly, all it needs is approval to be done, lets go get that approval, its just one month trial!! We the customers are asking this so all EA employees are off the hook as you are giving us what we want, get it done!

    I'd love EA to actually try some crazy tuners out, especially at the end of the release cycle or during the demo/beta. Take four weeks, try out a different tuner each week, and have people rank them against the default and provide comments on why they felt that way. See what the community thinks when you try something like cranking the speed way up, boosting defenders and nerfing goalies, increasing incidental contact to the extreme, or actually calling all of the late hits, boardings, and trips/slashes when people are playing stupid.

    Even better, give users the option to choose between the default tuner and the experimental one. At the end of the trial period, you can see which one had more users playing it.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    "it was with the intention of moving the tech forward, fixing existing issues and removing barriers that the old system"

    Many bad things were done with good intentions, is the point. Barriers were not removed, the un intended consequence is you added barriers to the game with TPS, barriers so bad it is alienating your most ardent and loyal fans of the NHL game series.

    The problem with discussions sometimes is that it becomes a perpetual discussion with no action, lets come together from this discussion with action.

    You mentioned its easy to tune this game at will, get with your team and tune TPS all the way down to remove as much weight, momentum, clunkyness as possible, just do it for one month and let us play like this for one month. This will give you a sample size of the entire NHL community in real time actually playing the game for all parts of the world from different perspectives, which is a much better case study than a handful of people at a gamechanger session.

    This can be done, it can be done easily, it can be done quickly, all it needs is approval to be done, lets go get that approval, its just one month trial!! We the customers are asking this so all EA employees are off the hook as you are giving us what we want, get it done!

    I'd love EA to actually try some crazy tuners out, especially at the end of the release cycle or during the demo/beta. Take four weeks, try out a different tuner each week, and have people rank them against the default and provide comments on why they felt that way. See what the community thinks when you try something like cranking the speed way up, boosting defenders and nerfing goalies, increasing incidental contact to the extreme, or actually calling all of the late hits, boardings, and trips/slashes when people are playing stupid.

    Even better, give users the option to choose between the default tuner and the experimental one. At the end of the trial period, you can see which one had more users playing it.

    Not a bad idea at all.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    kezz123 wrote: »

    To be honest, I dont play much offline anymore so im not even sure what I play as. Before NHL 09, I used to play nothing but offline since 93 I believe. In the beta, I launched one or two exhibition games with all settings defaulted playing ottawa vs some other random team. So whatever settings you have by default on exhibition is what i played. I dont even recall if I changed the difficulty. It felt good control wise. Players felt faster and more responsive and I felt like most of the time I could do somewhat decently at defense and moving the puck in the offensive zone fairly well. there were definitely hints of lack of proper control at defense while back skating but it wasnt too apparent. This may however be in part because of the better skating attributes or maybe because the AI doesnt try to dangle around you nearly as much as the EASHL people will which seems to expose defensive problems a lot more.

    Is that game style 2 as you suspect?

    I sometimes feel like I could probably buy nhl 17 and just play offline again as the style of play is less frustrating but at the same time, now that i know how much better club can be, its hard to get past playing with and vs humans to go play with the AI.

    I hope my last comment about practicing defense more didnt sound rude. I was leaving work and tossed a quick reply before leaving but I stand by that in the context you explained where you test things in practice mode a lot and so on. Perhaps you guys could enlist the services of a defense specialist who could help with the whole back skating / strafing / defensive positioning and reasoning and help you find out what feels lacking from a defensive point of view in the game. IE: Taking the body while a player tries to get too close and past you for instance. Ignore the puck put your hands ont he opponent chest and lift him backwards sort of and remove him from the puck. These are safer plays then open ice hits where you risk just looking like a fool and you soprt of just use the opponent momentum against them.

    If you take a look at this video I found on a quick search, it talks about gap control:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=amnnMOUko64

    If you try to follow these tips as a defender in NHL 17 for instance, using the proper gap, you become extremely vulnerable to the offensive player and you will notice that you have a harder time controlling your character and see if you can push them to the outside and force them there...likely you cannot.

    What typically happens is defenders instead leave a long gap because this is the safest way to play the opponent in this game which goes against typical defensive plays.


    This video highlights hidding the poke check and watching the body and not the puck:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=sJrdxXGR-BY

    When you see him show how to look at the body instead of the puck, he actually staff a few times to follow the skater.

    When he hides the pock check, something I myself do a lot in real hockey, look at how close to the opposing skates his poke hits. The thing is, as a defense moving backward, in NHL series, poking in that situation will very often result in poking right in the skates for a penalty...when in reality this is a fairly easy poke check to accomplish. I dont recall ever tripping someone doing this play and its a pretty routine play for me in real hockey. I however dread doing it in this game in part because the TPS will make me move all over instead of facing the puck and my stick will likely poke straight at the skate past the puck because the stick of my player seems pretty extended to begin with and then the poking motion makes for a large poke.

    Anyways, im sure I dont explain it the best but it may help understand some of the concerns at least from a defensive standpoint.

    This video explains how the stick is your tool on defense, how to move a player to the outside and how to keep your stick close.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=0E8A1YDEuEQ

    This is where I was explaining before how poke check spam was a good way to simulate good defense as you can poke NEAR but not on the puck unless the player decide to come to you where you actually poked it away. This is the exact type of defense I USED to be able to do but no longer can achieve due to a combination of skating issues and stick tool issues.

    Well sure, the comment was a bit insulting since it jumps to conclusions that there is a bias in what we test or the level of scrutiny we put into things but you recognized it and said so, so all is good. When I put up examples, it is never an exhaustive list. We test everything. The funny thing is that I am the main advocate in the office for defense. People always come to me and ask if I think pokechecking is too strong. Remember that incidental contact knocking the puck free was never something that was on by default in online play. At most, it was on after 2 seconds of having possession and for stick on body only.

    These are the types of things I pushed for as I felt they were a big reason players could just get the puck in the corner and skate out into the slot with it blindly. This same methodology is what leads to debates around fun factor though.

    The default game style and skill level are set based on how you respond to/set your hospitality settings upon first load, so I am not sure what you would have played on but if it is drastically different and you don't think it would be online connection related, I doubt it was player attribute differences and was probably the second notch on our game style slider which leans a bit more to the arcade/forgiving side of things - less incidental contact, higher accuracy, bigger hits -- basically everything a bit more amped up but still grounded in the same models -- just less accountability in some of the details.

    Personally, I have a really low goals against online so don't have an issue with defense but I know how the system works, play the game at work, home, etc. so am a very biased opinion. I like that committing has it's consequences and find that there is still a lot that is very forgiving. You can commit a bit forward at the blueline and still get back due to the forward to back transitions still being a bit fast. I don't get unwanted pivots anymore on the rush, I like the fact that you don't have to be frame by frame accurate anymore to press VC before you press a direction to get the right facing since before if it started to pivot to forwards, you would get the full pivot before flipping back around. That consistency now is really nice and especially helpful when you are changing into an AI player that is one frame into a pivot before you take control and are pressing VC. Lots of things like that have been welcome changes in my mind to helping give more control.

    That doesn't mean we don't want to improve defense. We want to improve all aspects of the game. It is just when people speak in extremes and say you can't do something that I know I have a lot of success doing, it makes it harder to understand what they are seeing. That is where I ask questions and give examples back about why and how it works the way it does, so that we can dig deeper into the design as opposed to just staying surface level.

    Yah sorry about that. Writing in a rush can make things sound a lot ruder than they are intended. I also Said it before but because of your reply to Nick, I wanted to confirm that not everyone is blind to the time you invest in participating to this thread and being up front and fairly open about your vision, what you do and so on to help people understand what goes on behind the scene. Even though it may not be what people want to hear (about TPS for instance). Thats the type of attitude I respect greatly and it DOES make a difference. I hope you dont get discouraged and stop doing this. Just remember that for each individuals who makes you feel like crap, there are probably 10 who appreciate what you do. Also, as I preached to mods before, there is often value in negative feedback even the harsh one. If you look past the harshness or disrespectful approach by nick, hes still letting you know that to him, TPS is in such a state that it would literally make him choose to stop playing a game which he obviously wants to play. if you start losing tons of clients, these types of recurring feedback may help you understand why. I doubt that he is doing so out of ill-will in the end.

    Admittedly, I have not been playing the game nearly as much as before in the last few years. I played a lot of 13 (But this was the first year we didnt play up until the next release), a bit of 14 (bought used...late...stopped playing pretty shortly after), skipped 15, played a bit of 16 (used, quit early) and did the beta in 17.

    I used to buy the game new each year but since 13....its been rough. I also dont know that I mastered the tps like you did and perhaps if I invested more time, my opinion of defense may change a bit. But I still played for weeks over the years and I am always praised as a good D irl who can shutdown the best league scorers...yet in this darn game....I feel like a glorified cone.

    I feel like the offense can often just pretend to go to the outside and just cut straight in leaving me with the options to get a trip poke or a high stick lift or maybe the best way I can play is never touch poke...never touch stick lift...just use the left control stick to position myself and hope the game intercepts the pucks for me which is very unfun.

    I may not have the necessary practice to talk in depth but the feeling I get when playing demotivates me from even wanting to practice. Maybe this is a feeling more people have.

    I wouldnt be surprised if I liked arcadish modes more. I think I am a firm believer that this game is too complex to be a great simulator in a game. I think there is a sweet spot between simulation and arcade where you feel like you are playing real hockey by the real rules but you do not want to feel useless doing so.

    This means that offensive players should be able to make nice dekes even though you dont see 90% of nhl players ever try these dekes. But that also should mean that defense should be a bit more fun and interactive to play. The balance between offense and defense seems to be present...heck...despite feeling useless, we won a lot of our games in beta anyways and we rarely gave that many goals that I can recall. But perhaps more can be done to improve the fun factor. For me...controls are a huge part of it..by controls I mean mostly TPS and VC. But thats my perspective from a not super experienced player with the more recent iterations of TPS.




  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    "it was with the intention of moving the tech forward, fixing existing issues and removing barriers that the old system"

    Many bad things were done with good intentions, is the point. Barriers were not removed, the un intended consequence is you added barriers to the game with TPS, barriers so bad it is alienating your most ardent and loyal fans of the NHL game series.

    The problem with discussions sometimes is that it becomes a perpetual discussion with no action, lets come together from this discussion with action.

    You mentioned its easy to tune this game at will, get with your team and tune TPS all the way down to remove as much weight, momentum, clunkyness as possible, just do it for one month and let us play like this for one month. This will give you a sample size of the entire NHL community in real time actually playing the game for all parts of the world from different perspectives, which is a much better case study than a handful of people at a gamechanger session.

    This can be done, it can be done easily, it can be done quickly, all it needs is approval to be done, lets go get that approval, its just one month trial!! We the customers are asking this so all EA employees are off the hook as you are giving us what we want, get it done!

    I'd love EA to actually try some crazy tuners out, especially at the end of the release cycle or during the demo/beta. Take four weeks, try out a different tuner each week, and have people rank them against the default and provide comments on why they felt that way. See what the community thinks when you try something like cranking the speed way up, boosting defenders and nerfing goalies, increasing incidental contact to the extreme, or actually calling all of the late hits, boardings, and trips/slashes when people are playing stupid.

    Even better, give users the option to choose between the default tuner and the experimental one. At the end of the trial period, you can see which one had more users playing it.

    Not a bad idea at all.

    I mean, that's exactly what Rocket League was doing last I had seen. Occasionally try out a new style and see if it sticks. Maybe have a max of three tuners at any given time, with one being the 'standard', another being a popular experimental tuner form the past (think Snow Day in Rocket League), and another being the experimental mode. Yes, it may fragment the population a bit, but give folks the option to automatically revert to the standard if they can't find any experimental games.
  • Lynch-CAN wrote: »
    As far as the defensive discussion goes, puck carriers need way less agility, they can be at full speed and turn an instant 90 degrees to avoid hits or poke checks just by toe dragging the puck or holding puck protect, players without the puck have to make wide turns at full speed, this doesn't make sense. Turning while holding puck protect also bounces about 90% of hits off harmlessly, not even a nudge or loss of possession.

    Defense have enough tools, offense just has too many exploits in my opinion. It feels like low speed hits were great in the BETA and just aren't in the game anymore, I realise you guys say hitting hasn't been changed since the BETA but that's just how it feels to me.

    In the BETA I was getting 100% defense rating almost every game, never below 80%; now I get 50-60% when I play a good game on a win, and that has to do a lot with the coach constantly blaming defense for "missing a check" on every single goal that goes in, which should also be fixed as it takes exp from you at the end and just makes you look like a bad dman, even when you play your position flawlessly.

    This is where I tend to agree and disagree.
    offense makes you feel like garbage most of the time when playing Defense (or I feel like that anyways at my skill level)
    With that said, is the "fun" solution to make offense feel horrible too? IE: lower them to the feeling of defenders?

    I feel like this is where a bit of arcade feel is healthy for the game. Sure, offense can potentially all be datsyuks but defense should be a bit more fluid and engaging to play to compensate. If this means a bit less harsh on the backskating/strafing TPS, so be it.

    My opinion would be to try to make all roles more impacting and more fun. I feel like if defense is left as is, than some of the tools from offense should be stripped however....but I also feel like that would be a step in the wrong direction.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I don't know.... I think that in the end, the only way to settle this debate is for Ben and his team to come up with a way to give most people what they want by splitting up the game into different types/skill levels online. There's certainly enough people that play online to allow for it. And even if that skews the groups into mostly one camp or the other, the total amount should be the same.

    In fact, maybe it brings IN new customers by doing this if they know they can just hop into EASHL drop-ins or clubs and play their preferred style of hockey, with tweaks to the TPS to be fully on or toned down. I know a lot of players on my side that stopped playing after NHL 15 because they felt the game wasn't simulation enough (mostly NHL 2K hardcore players). If EA said tomorrow that they would introduce a new lobby for Hardcore players where the difficulty was set to Super Star and the sliders were on FULL SIM, they'd purchase the game in a heartbeat and our club would double in size.

    Obviously, the other side would be that people that are not as hardcore and would like something less convoluted and more "fun" could have it as well and play with other users who think like them.

    Because at the end, that's why we play this game with others, it's in the hopes of finding like-minded people to play with, not to have to deal with juvenile brats who try to ruin it for us. Or, on the flip side, the juvenile brats don't want to have to be saddled up playing with and against "stay at home dads" that will be constantly scolding them on their lack of hockey know how; "Just let me play how I want to GRANDPA!!!".

    So instead of 10 minutes looking for a game, it would take 20 mins ?

    No thanks
    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    Giving people more choices in how they want to play the game is never a bad thing. It's been a long time that I've been saying it, but there should be 2 or 3 lobbies for EASHL drop ins and OTP: CASUAL, HARDCORE and something in between.

    Then depending on the numbers you see in each lobby, you could eventually bring it over to EASHL Clubs and have 2 lobbies with 2 different game types.

    The point is the more choices we have on how we want to play the game, the better our enjoyment of the game will be.
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    "it was with the intention of moving the tech forward, fixing existing issues and removing barriers that the old system"

    Many bad things were done with good intentions, is the point. Barriers were not removed, the un intended consequence is you added barriers to the game with TPS, barriers so bad it is alienating your most ardent and loyal fans of the NHL game series.

    The problem with discussions sometimes is that it becomes a perpetual discussion with no action, lets come together from this discussion with action.

    You mentioned its easy to tune this game at will, get with your team and tune TPS all the way down to remove as much weight, momentum, clunkyness as possible, just do it for one month and let us play like this for one month. This will give you a sample size of the entire NHL community in real time actually playing the game for all parts of the world from different perspectives, which is a much better case study than a handful of people at a gamechanger session.

    This can be done, it can be done easily, it can be done quickly, all it needs is approval to be done, lets go get that approval, its just one month trial!! We the customers are asking this so all EA employees are off the hook as you are giving us what we want, get it done!

    I'd love EA to actually try some crazy tuners out, especially at the end of the release cycle or during the demo/beta. Take four weeks, try out a different tuner each week, and have people rank them against the default and provide comments on why they felt that way. See what the community thinks when you try something like cranking the speed way up, boosting defenders and nerfing goalies, increasing incidental contact to the extreme, or actually calling all of the late hits, boardings, and trips/slashes when people are playing stupid.

    Even better, give users the option to choose between the default tuner and the experimental one. At the end of the trial period, you can see which one had more users playing it.

    Not a bad idea at all.

    I mean, that's exactly what Rocket League was doing last I had seen. Occasionally try out a new style and see if it sticks. Maybe have a max of three tuners at any given time, with one being the 'standard', another being a popular experimental tuner form the past (think Snow Day in Rocket League), and another being the experimental mode. Yes, it may fragment the population a bit, but give folks the option to automatically revert to the standard if they can't find any experimental games.

    Such a great game, haven't played that one for awhile, was trying to hit the ball while flying the last i played it.
  • So the skating engine stays. To compensate for the lack of control over your skater, EA has said 4 new visor tints will be added to nhl 18 along with the ability to change the way your skates are laced.

    You heard it here first.

    Enjoy your game
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    barrett098 wrote: »
    Does Rammer want an arcade game or more realistic one like you? Just curious. So f glad your on that dev team because tbh he seems like he rather have pure arcade **** just based on interviews I seen him give when hyping up the game.

    I don't think it is polarizing like that. His job is to run a great hockey videogame business. He is the one that signed off on my bid to add both a new Semi Pro difficulty level when we knew there was too big of a skill gap between Rookie and Pro for newer Users to the game and he also signed off on adding a Full Sim game style with more sliders than we have ever had and increasing that slider range to a 100 point scale.

    He is fully aware that there are many different minds out there of what a fun videogame hockey experience is -- from one end of the scale, that is a full arcade game and on the other it is a full simulation. Aside from Gameplay, the game modes we develop all meet different needs of the community as well.

    The one main polarizing thing in all of that at the moment is that our online settings are one set game style and difficulty but that is the case with most online games to a certain degree. To switch genres again to shooters, Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare, Call of Duty, Battlefield and Arma are all different games. They don't offer those levels of arcade shooter to full sim shooter in one product. They know their overall audience and try to find a good common ground that will be fun and competitive for the masses.

    I have said before that we have had discussions of different game styles online. Whenever I ask people on these boards that want the game to be a bit more forgiving and less sim if they prefer game style 2 over 3, they always respond that they don't play offline. That is fine but it is a way to get an idea right off the bat if the tuning in our game alone could get an experience that group would like.

    We do lots of User testing for exactly what has been suggested in this thread to gauge what people find fun and what hits their expectations when they go into the game. That was also the intention of starting the game changers program so that we could have more candid conversations with different minds in the community. We use that feedback to fine tune the game and take it into account in any decisions we are making. Different skill levels and interests of people playing on the same game style and difficulty are going to lead to different scores for passing, shooting, stick checking, physics, goalies, etc. but all in all, after the core direction for the game has been picked, what we have then tuned that experience to is what was deemed the best direction to go considering all factors.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I don't know.... I think that in the end, the only way to settle this debate is for Ben and his team to come up with a way to give most people what they want by splitting up the game into different types/skill levels online. There's certainly enough people that play online to allow for it. And even if that skews the groups into mostly one camp or the other, the total amount should be the same.

    In fact, maybe it brings IN new customers by doing this if they know they can just hop into EASHL drop-ins or clubs and play their preferred style of hockey, with tweaks to the TPS to be fully on or toned down. I know a lot of players on my side that stopped playing after NHL 15 because they felt the game wasn't simulation enough (mostly NHL 2K hardcore players). If EA said tomorrow that they would introduce a new lobby for Hardcore players where the difficulty was set to Super Star and the sliders were on FULL SIM, they'd purchase the game in a heartbeat and our club would double in size.

    Obviously, the other side would be that people that are not as hardcore and would like something less convoluted and more "fun" could have it as well and play with other users who think like them.

    Because at the end, that's why we play this game with others, it's in the hopes of finding like-minded people to play with, not to have to deal with juvenile brats who try to ruin it for us. Or, on the flip side, the juvenile brats don't want to have to be saddled up playing with and against "stay at home dads" that will be constantly scolding them on their lack of hockey know how; "Just let me play how I want to GRANDPA!!!".

    So instead of 10 minutes looking for a game, it would take 20 mins ?

    No thanks

    It is hard to say. Obviously one of the reasons we haven't done it is with that mindset but the counter argument would be that if you had multiple options, more people would be satisfied and the number of people online at a given time could be higher.

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