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Alienating the Long-term Fans

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  • NHL Dev

    What say you? About tuning TPS all the way down so weight, momentum, clunky-ness, is reduced as much as possible? One months trial? That is a full sample size of the entire community from all over the world that will give you feedback. This much more accurate and meaningful than a few selected people from game changers who may come in with biases.

    What say you?

    Its not a bad idea, it can be tuned easily, it just needs someone to sign off on doing it. What harm can come of it? It will satisfy the large % of us who want more control and better skating, and those who prefer sim are curious also, they just won't admit it, it would be a constructive experiment and above all else it would throw a bone to all your loyal customers that not only are you listening, but you are acting to please your customers, again one month, if the consensus is no, then put the game back the way it was and we can all make decisions to stay or go from there.

    Its the least EA can do for, please answer!!
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    barrett098 wrote: »
    Does Rammer want an arcade game or more realistic one like you? Just curious. So f glad your on that dev team because tbh he seems like he rather have pure arcade **** just based on interviews I seen him give when hyping up the game.

    I don't think it is polarizing like that. His job is to run a great hockey videogame business. He is the one that signed off on my bid to add both a new Semi Pro difficulty level when we knew there was too big of a skill gap between Rookie and Pro for newer Users to the game and he also signed off on adding a Full Sim game style with more sliders than we have ever had and increasing that slider range to a 100 point scale.

    He is fully aware that there are many different minds out there of what a fun videogame hockey experience is -- from one end of the scale, that is a full arcade game and on the other it is a full simulation. Aside from Gameplay, the game modes we develop all meet different needs of the community as well.

    The one main polarizing thing in all of that at the moment is that our online settings are one set game style and difficulty but that is the case with most online games to a certain degree. To switch genres again to shooters, Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare, Call of Duty, Battlefield and Arma are all different games. They don't offer those levels of arcade shooter to full sim shooter in one product. They know their overall audience and try to find a good common ground that will be fun and competitive for the masses.

    I have said before that we have had discussions of different game styles online. Whenever I ask people on these boards that want the game to be a bit more forgiving and less sim if they prefer game style 2 over 3, they always respond that they don't play offline. That is fine but it is a way to get an idea right off the bat if the tuning in our game alone could get an experience that group would like.

    We do lots of User testing for exactly what has been suggested in this thread to gauge what people find fun and what hits their expectations when they go into the game. That was also the intention of starting the game changers program so that we could have more candid conversations with different minds in the community. We use that feedback to fine tune the game and take it into account in any decisions we are making. Different skill levels and interests of people playing on the same game style and difficulty are going to lead to different scores for passing, shooting, stick checking, physics, goalies, etc. but all in all, after the core direction for the game has been picked, what we have then tuned that experience to is what was deemed the best direction to go considering all factors.

    Is there a single example of a player saying they enjoy the current TPS/state of the game when playing online? I must've missed that post...

    When the (ridiculous) skating engine hasn't met what the community (customers) has wanted over the years, what then, sir?
  • I agree with giving more choice even if its only to prove a system good or bad.
    For instance, Overwatch....They just finally caved in and allowed only one hero of each type to be picked in quickplay. HOWEVER they also added a new arcade mode where you can still pick 6 of the same hero if you want.

    People were CRYING that removing multiple picks would destroy quickplay and people like me who wanted multiple picks out were getting dowvoted to hell. Guess what? 30seconds queue in single hero pick (new quickplay) and 2-3minute queues in arcade mutipick queue (equivalent of old quickplay which apparently was the only way to go)

    So what does that say? One pick is more popular by a long shot than multiple picks despite the impression you would get from the boards. YET people still can play whatever they want as long as they dont mind longer waits.

    Maybe we should have that arcade EASHL and that simulation EASHL and just see which succeeds and which falls flat. It would be a great opportunity for devs to test out things, see how they impact the market, without killing the market. You are dividing the population to an extent but its usually only temporary before one gain popularity and suck in the other crowd. Eventually, one will be nearly dead and you just let it go or replace by something else as needed.

    Another game mode that was added in Overwatch was 3v3 and 1v1. Maybe that has a place in this game too. For those people who have smaller clubs, dont want to deal with so much bad AI, these guys could play the 3v3 league for instance. Could come with its own rewards and smaller rink or whatever.

    As far as removing TPS Entirely, perhaps that it a bit of a drastic proposition when in fact, the current system can just be tweaked to be made a bit more arcadey as it is in some of the offline modes.

  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    EVerk81 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    barrett098 wrote: »
    Does Rammer want an arcade game or more realistic one like you? Just curious. So f glad your on that dev team because tbh he seems like he rather have pure arcade **** just based on interviews I seen him give when hyping up the game.

    I don't think it is polarizing like that. His job is to run a great hockey videogame business. He is the one that signed off on my bid to add both a new Semi Pro difficulty level when we knew there was too big of a skill gap between Rookie and Pro for newer Users to the game and he also signed off on adding a Full Sim game style with more sliders than we have ever had and increasing that slider range to a 100 point scale.

    He is fully aware that there are many different minds out there of what a fun videogame hockey experience is -- from one end of the scale, that is a full arcade game and on the other it is a full simulation. Aside from Gameplay, the game modes we develop all meet different needs of the community as well.

    The one main polarizing thing in all of that at the moment is that our online settings are one set game style and difficulty but that is the case with most online games to a certain degree. To switch genres again to shooters, Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare, Call of Duty, Battlefield and Arma are all different games. They don't offer those levels of arcade shooter to full sim shooter in one product. They know their overall audience and try to find a good common ground that will be fun and competitive for the masses.

    I have said before that we have had discussions of different game styles online. Whenever I ask people on these boards that want the game to be a bit more forgiving and less sim if they prefer game style 2 over 3, they always respond that they don't play offline. That is fine but it is a way to get an idea right off the bat if the tuning in our game alone could get an experience that group would like.

    We do lots of User testing for exactly what has been suggested in this thread to gauge what people find fun and what hits their expectations when they go into the game. That was also the intention of starting the game changers program so that we could have more candid conversations with different minds in the community. We use that feedback to fine tune the game and take it into account in any decisions we are making. Different skill levels and interests of people playing on the same game style and difficulty are going to lead to different scores for passing, shooting, stick checking, physics, goalies, etc. but all in all, after the core direction for the game has been picked, what we have then tuned that experience to is what was deemed the best direction to go considering all factors.

    Is there a single example of a player saying they enjoy the current TPS/state of the game when playing online? I must've missed that post...

    When the (ridiculous) skating engine hasn't met what the community (customers) has wanted over the years, what then, sir?

    There are plenty of people that like the skating engine. Here on these forums. My entire club likes it. Do we think it's perfect? Of course not. There is a disparity between the way a player with the puck can move compared to the player without it, as has been said countless times, which makes the engine frustrating at times. There's also a few quirks and things that could use a tuning, like puck tracking (what you would call VC) while on defense. I would also like to see something added to the defenseman to help contain the play other than relying on the poke check or hitting. Something that helps me force an opponent into the direction I want him to go. Incidental contact helps a little in that regard, but it's not enough to just "match" my opponent shoulder to shoulder. I want to be able to put my stick in the way of his pass or shot while STILL being able to position my body so that I can always face the opponent and force him to the outside rather than allow him to go through me like it happens now. There's a lot more I can think of that I would like added to the skating engine.

    Does that mean I want to see the TPS engine scrapped? No! I just want it to get better and so do the players I play with. I don't want to see EASHL degenerate into a glorified multiplayer HUT mode as it was in the past.
  • EVerk81 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    barrett098 wrote: »
    Does Rammer want an arcade game or more realistic one like you? Just curious. So f glad your on that dev team because tbh he seems like he rather have pure arcade **** just based on interviews I seen him give when hyping up the game.

    I don't think it is polarizing like that. His job is to run a great hockey videogame business. He is the one that signed off on my bid to add both a new Semi Pro difficulty level when we knew there was too big of a skill gap between Rookie and Pro for newer Users to the game and he also signed off on adding a Full Sim game style with more sliders than we have ever had and increasing that slider range to a 100 point scale.

    He is fully aware that there are many different minds out there of what a fun videogame hockey experience is -- from one end of the scale, that is a full arcade game and on the other it is a full simulation. Aside from Gameplay, the game modes we develop all meet different needs of the community as well.

    The one main polarizing thing in all of that at the moment is that our online settings are one set game style and difficulty but that is the case with most online games to a certain degree. To switch genres again to shooters, Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare, Call of Duty, Battlefield and Arma are all different games. They don't offer those levels of arcade shooter to full sim shooter in one product. They know their overall audience and try to find a good common ground that will be fun and competitive for the masses.

    I have said before that we have had discussions of different game styles online. Whenever I ask people on these boards that want the game to be a bit more forgiving and less sim if they prefer game style 2 over 3, they always respond that they don't play offline. That is fine but it is a way to get an idea right off the bat if the tuning in our game alone could get an experience that group would like.

    We do lots of User testing for exactly what has been suggested in this thread to gauge what people find fun and what hits their expectations when they go into the game. That was also the intention of starting the game changers program so that we could have more candid conversations with different minds in the community. We use that feedback to fine tune the game and take it into account in any decisions we are making. Different skill levels and interests of people playing on the same game style and difficulty are going to lead to different scores for passing, shooting, stick checking, physics, goalies, etc. but all in all, after the core direction for the game has been picked, what we have then tuned that experience to is what was deemed the best direction to go considering all factors.

    Is there a single example of a player saying they enjoy the current TPS/state of the game when playing online? I must've missed that post...

    When the (ridiculous) skating engine hasn't met what the community (customers) has wanted over the years, what then, sir?

    Name me the worst game in history and ill name you a person who loves it.

  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I don't know.... I think that in the end, the only way to settle this debate is for Ben and his team to come up with a way to give most people what they want by splitting up the game into different types/skill levels online. There's certainly enough people that play online to allow for it. And even if that skews the groups into mostly one camp or the other, the total amount should be the same.

    In fact, maybe it brings IN new customers by doing this if they know they can just hop into EASHL drop-ins or clubs and play their preferred style of hockey, with tweaks to the TPS to be fully on or toned down. I know a lot of players on my side that stopped playing after NHL 15 because they felt the game wasn't simulation enough (mostly NHL 2K hardcore players). If EA said tomorrow that they would introduce a new lobby for Hardcore players where the difficulty was set to Super Star and the sliders were on FULL SIM, they'd purchase the game in a heartbeat and our club would double in size.

    Obviously, the other side would be that people that are not as hardcore and would like something less convoluted and more "fun" could have it as well and play with other users who think like them.

    Because at the end, that's why we play this game with others, it's in the hopes of finding like-minded people to play with, not to have to deal with juvenile brats who try to ruin it for us. Or, on the flip side, the juvenile brats don't want to have to be saddled up playing with and against "stay at home dads" that will be constantly scolding them on their lack of hockey know how; "Just let me play how I want to GRANDPA!!!".

    So instead of 10 minutes looking for a game, it would take 20 mins ?

    No thanks

    That would only happen if your preferred playing style turned out to be not that popular, now wouldn't it? But what are you worried about? I'm sure you wouldn't have any trouble finding matches in the CASUAL lobby where people are going to be turning on dimes, smashing into everything and scoring 20 goals per period, just like the good ol' NHL 09-12 days.

    As for people in a Hardcore lobby? I'll gladly wait 20 minutes to play a game where we can actually play REAL hockey, thank you.
  • Workin_OT
    469 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    The tuning of the game is quite good. I think it finds a balance between sim and arcade nicely for the most part.

    Again, the single biggest thing you can do that will make 100% of people happy is to fix the FEEL of skating without the puck.

    Offense is at a good place right now. Your movement with the puck is fluid and responsive, it FEELS good to control. Offense does not need a nerf to make the game more 'fun'.

    People say they like the older games the best, ie NHL 11. People like offense and people liked defense. Offense wasn't nerfed back then. Defense didn't have more tools back then, there is more defensive tools now than back then, why did people like it more?

    The reason people like it more was the FEEL of controlling their player without the puck.

    It's honestly as simple as that. Back then there was next to no debates about sim vs arcade. The game is tuned and balanced in a pretty good spot right now. Fix the FEEL of controlling your skater without the puck and people will be happy with the current game. The debating about sim vs arcade will subside to almost non existant.

    TPS has good aspects to it no doubt. 45 cuts/90 cuts, great additions to the game. Momentum and being able to glide, great addition. These do not take away from the fact that since TPS was introduced, skating/maneuvering/strafing/facing without the puck has either felt like a clunky mess and/or has not even existed in the engine.

    Fix that issue ^^, make maneuvering/strafing/facing without the puck FEEL smooth and responsive to control again and everyone will be happy again. The debate about sim vs arcade will be almost non existent. Why? Because people will actually be having fun playing the game again.
    Post edited by Workin_OT on
  • sgiz1
    537 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    The online game modes are already a loose puck fest, making the puck come loose just from turning and skating to the boards will just add to the frustration of this game. Its already too much of a sim, this will make it worse.

    The community is split, some want more sim, some want more fast paced arcade. Doesn't make either party wrong or right, its about what's best for growing the popularity of the game thus growing the customer base and community.

    the popularity and community size have been shrinking over the past few years, we need to change that.

    The debate will continue.
  • cogsx86
    787 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I don't know.... I think that in the end, the only way to settle this debate is for Ben and his team to come up with a way to give most people what they want by splitting up the game into different types/skill levels online. There's certainly enough people that play online to allow for it. And even if that skews the groups into mostly one camp or the other, the total amount should be the same.

    In fact, maybe it brings IN new customers by doing this if they know they can just hop into EASHL drop-ins or clubs and play their preferred style of hockey, with tweaks to the TPS to be fully on or toned down. I know a lot of players on my side that stopped playing after NHL 15 because they felt the game wasn't simulation enough (mostly NHL 2K hardcore players). If EA said tomorrow that they would introduce a new lobby for Hardcore players where the difficulty was set to Super Star and the sliders were on FULL SIM, they'd purchase the game in a heartbeat and our club would double in size.

    Obviously, the other side would be that people that are not as hardcore and would like something less convoluted and more "fun" could have it as well and play with other users who think like them.

    Because at the end, that's why we play this game with others, it's in the hopes of finding like-minded people to play with, not to have to deal with juvenile brats who try to ruin it for us. Or, on the flip side, the juvenile brats don't want to have to be saddled up playing with and against "stay at home dads" that will be constantly scolding them on their lack of hockey know how; "Just let me play how I want to GRANDPA!!!".

    So instead of 10 minutes looking for a game, it would take 20 mins ?

    No thanks

    It is hard to say. Obviously one of the reasons we haven't done it is with that mindset but the counter argument would be that if you had multiple options, more people would be satisfied and the number of people online at a given time could be higher.

    @NHLDev

    True, I could see if the options for a more hardcore game were given you would see clubs with 5's and 6's playing that all the time.

    Then clubs with anything less would most likely not, because it would be difficult for most clubs who are running 2's and 3's, who play the more run and gun style game.

    I think it would be an awesome addition to the game. Just my one thought on this is, it will be like BF.

    You will have 20-30 normal servers and 2-5 Hardcore servers. Putting this into perspective you have 20-30 clubs playing Normal and 2-5 clubs playing Hardcore. This of course would result in alot of waiting around.


    One other addition that I think would be awesome for club, that might improve this idea, is giving teams the ability to see how many other teams and the numbers they have are searching for a game.

    So for example you: You have list of teams who are searching for a game you see how many players+goalie+region+normal/hardcore

    Then you can select to play that team and if they accept boom game found. Kinda lke some PC games

    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    The online game modes are already a loose puck fest, making the puck come loose just from turning and skating to the boards will just add to the frustration of this game. Its already too much of a sim, this will make it worse.

    That would only happen if players insist on trying to keep playing the puck through the boards like they do now. Don't know many people that like to hit their head on a wall repeatedly until they bleed to figure out it's not a good idea.

    People will adjust and play a little away from the boards. Or, hey, maybe they learn to pass the puck. The point is the game is geared to reward selfish plays too much. It's ok in HUT and VS, but in TEAM PLAY online modes, the emphasis should be on teams that know how to play together.

    Right now that's not very true of how the game plays.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    The online game modes are already a loose puck fest, making the puck come loose just from turning and skating to the boards will just add to the frustration of this game. Its already too much of a sim, this will make it worse.

    That would only happen if players insist on trying to keep playing the puck through the boards like they do now. Don't know many people that like to hit their head on a wall repeatedly until they bleed to figure out it's not a good idea.

    People will adjust and play a little away from the boards. Or, hey, maybe they learn to pass the puck. The point is the game is geared to reward selfish plays too much. It's ok in HUT and VS, but in TEAM PLAY online modes, the emphasis should be on teams that know how to play together.

    Right now that's not very true of how the game plays.

    Amen.
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    COGSx86 wrote: »
    VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    I don't know.... I think that in the end, the only way to settle this debate is for Ben and his team to come up with a way to give most people what they want by splitting up the game into different types/skill levels online. There's certainly enough people that play online to allow for it. And even if that skews the groups into mostly one camp or the other, the total amount should be the same.

    In fact, maybe it brings IN new customers by doing this if they know they can just hop into EASHL drop-ins or clubs and play their preferred style of hockey, with tweaks to the TPS to be fully on or toned down. I know a lot of players on my side that stopped playing after NHL 15 because they felt the game wasn't simulation enough (mostly NHL 2K hardcore players). If EA said tomorrow that they would introduce a new lobby for Hardcore players where the difficulty was set to Super Star and the sliders were on FULL SIM, they'd purchase the game in a heartbeat and our club would double in size.

    Obviously, the other side would be that people that are not as hardcore and would like something less convoluted and more "fun" could have it as well and play with other users who think like them.

    Because at the end, that's why we play this game with others, it's in the hopes of finding like-minded people to play with, not to have to deal with juvenile brats who try to ruin it for us. Or, on the flip side, the juvenile brats don't want to have to be saddled up playing with and against "stay at home dads" that will be constantly scolding them on their lack of hockey know how; "Just let me play how I want to GRANDPA!!!".

    So instead of 10 minutes looking for a game, it would take 20 mins ?

    No thanks

    It is hard to say. Obviously one of the reasons we haven't done it is with that mindset but the counter argument would be that if you had multiple options, more people would be satisfied and the number of people online at a given time could be higher.

    @NHLDev

    True, I could see if the options for a more hardcore game were given you would see clubs with 5's and 6's playing that all the time.

    Then clubs with anything less would most likely not, because it would be difficult for most clubs who are running 2's and 3's, who play the more run and gun style game.

    I think it would be an awesome addition to the game. Just my one thought on this is, it will be like BF.

    You will have 20-30 normal servers and 2-5 Hardcore servers. Putting this into perspective you have 20-30 clubs playing Normal and 2-5 clubs playing Hardcore. This of course would result in alot of waiting around.


    One other addition that I think would be awesome for club, that might improve this idea, is giving teams the ability to see how many other teams and the numbers they have are searching for a game.

    So for example you: You have list of teams who are searching for a game you see how many players+goalie+region+normal/hardcore

    Then you can select to play that team and if they accept boom game found. Kinda lke some PC games

    Once you get into the habit of allowing teams to pick their opponents, you're going to get the people who complain that the top teams only pick the games they know they can win, or other teams refusing to play a top team because they know they will lose badly. There has to be some amount of randomness or else it encourages "scrub hunting" in the game.
  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    trust us when we tell you, TPS hurt the game and the fan base. at the very least, it had alienated anyone who had somewhat mastered the 09-12 years. there was no motivation to keep playing since no one really asked for a new skating engine in the first place. personally, i just spend that time i used to dedicate for NHL on other games now like GTA or whatever new shooter is out.

    I definitely get the point about people who had mastered the game during those years. That said, there were a lot of people that complained about figure skaters and a new skating engine should be a welcome addition to a hockey game. It is always a risk to advance core tech in your game but I think that is something teams should always be looking to do where it makes sense. The decision to move to a new skating engine was decided before I started on gameplay so I can't take credit for that call but the majority of my job with skating that year was to figure out how the new skating engine, the tuning, etc. was going to fix issues people had with the old skating model -- accountability was a big part. I think it is great that pivots are actually a part of the game and that you can manage your gap by understanding when to skate forwards and pivot to backskating and that you then need to choose when to pivot and commit rather than just sliding sideways across your skates. Sure there are places where it can be better but that was the case with the old model as well which had hit some limitations to advance further.

    Overall, it brought fresh life to the series and some people adapted and embraced the change and others as you mentioned decided that they didn't have that mastery anymore and moved on rather than seeing it as another piece they could master above their competition.

    We have snipers but if shooting people with guns is what you are after, I am not sure any skating engine will make a difference there.
    The issue isn't the fact that the game changed and people had to relearn the skating aspect of it.

    The issue was, and still is, control. The game FELT great to play in 'the glory days'. The issues that came with TPS were, and still are to this day, 100% about control and the way the game FEELS to play.

    TPS makes the game FEEL clunky, and has since it was introduced. You can make the best game ever made but if it FEELS clunky you will alienate a lot of players.

    This is the most important aspect of every single video game ever made. The control and the FEEL. NHL has FELT clunky/bad to play since TPS.

    The clunky/bad feeling of control in this game is the #1 reason why people dislike it and are playing it less and less.

    People don't need customization and all that jazz in EASHL, although it is great can't argue that. EASHL could be the most basic and bare bones mode and people would play it all year if the CONTROL and FEEL of the game was good again.

    Look at a game like rocket league. Super simple, super high skill ceiling, and it FEELS great to play. Imagine if you had to constantly tap LT in order to orient your car in the direction you want, and it would still sometimes spin out of control. That is what NHL is like since TPS.

    Make NHL FEEL great to skate and control your player again and 95% of the remaining issues become minor annoyances that you can chip away at in the coming years.

    Where's the bloody LIKE button?
  • BSDShoes wrote: »
    Workin_OT wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    trust us when we tell you, TPS hurt the game and the fan base. at the very least, it had alienated anyone who had somewhat mastered the 09-12 years. there was no motivation to keep playing since no one really asked for a new skating engine in the first place. personally, i just spend that time i used to dedicate for NHL on other games now like GTA or whatever new shooter is out.

    I definitely get the point about people who had mastered the game during those years. That said, there were a lot of people that complained about figure skaters and a new skating engine should be a welcome addition to a hockey game. It is always a risk to advance core tech in your game but I think that is something teams should always be looking to do where it makes sense. The decision to move to a new skating engine was decided before I started on gameplay so I can't take credit for that call but the majority of my job with skating that year was to figure out how the new skating engine, the tuning, etc. was going to fix issues people had with the old skating model -- accountability was a big part. I think it is great that pivots are actually a part of the game and that you can manage your gap by understanding when to skate forwards and pivot to backskating and that you then need to choose when to pivot and commit rather than just sliding sideways across your skates. Sure there are places where it can be better but that was the case with the old model as well which had hit some limitations to advance further.

    Overall, it brought fresh life to the series and some people adapted and embraced the change and others as you mentioned decided that they didn't have that mastery anymore and moved on rather than seeing it as another piece they could master above their competition.

    We have snipers but if shooting people with guns is what you are after, I am not sure any skating engine will make a difference there.
    The issue isn't the fact that the game changed and people had to relearn the skating aspect of it.

    The issue was, and still is, control. The game FELT great to play in 'the glory days'. The issues that came with TPS were, and still are to this day, 100% about control and the way the game FEELS to play.

    TPS makes the game FEEL clunky, and has since it was introduced. You can make the best game ever made but if it FEELS clunky you will alienate a lot of players.

    This is the most important aspect of every single video game ever made. The control and the FEEL. NHL has FELT clunky/bad to play since TPS.

    The clunky/bad feeling of control in this game is the #1 reason why people dislike it and are playing it less and less.

    People don't need customization and all that jazz in EASHL, although it is great can't argue that. EASHL could be the most basic and bare bones mode and people would play it all year if the CONTROL and FEEL of the game was good again.

    Look at a game like rocket league. Super simple, super high skill ceiling, and it FEELS great to play. Imagine if you had to constantly tap LT in order to orient your car in the direction you want, and it would still sometimes spin out of control. That is what NHL is like since TPS.

    Make NHL FEEL great to skate and control your player again and 95% of the remaining issues become minor annoyances that you can chip away at in the coming years.

    Where's the bloody LIKE button?

    The control and FEEL is what connects a user to the game. If the control FEELS like a chore and the user has to micromanage/fight with the controller to get their character to do what they want they won't feel connected to the game, they won't be able to truly enjoy the experience.

    EA, you guys can add whatever you want to the game but until you solve this issue of clunky FEEL when trying to maneuver/strafe/face without the puck the masses won't truly enjoy this game.

    This should be the absolute most important thing on your list to fix. It is a travesty it's been this bad for so long now.

    You've done a lot of work in other areas of gameplay and for the most part they are great.

    Solve this control issue and allow users to FEEL connected to the game again and you have a pretty damn good game. We don't care if some things might have to 'look' unrealistic, FEEL should trump that 100% of the time.

    Imagine if driving a car in GTA always felt like it does when you are driving on your rims, even when your tires are fine. Could users manage? Yup. They would never allow this to happen though. It would be a terrible experience.

    This is exactly what NHL has felt like since TPS. Not all the time, for the most part when you have the puck it FEELS good, a lot of the time when you don't have the puck though it FEELS like ****.

    Again, it is a travesty this game has been allowed to go on like this for so long. Allowing the FEEL and control to remain like this is easily one of the biggest blunders this series has ever seen since its inception.

  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    BSDShoes wrote: »
    Workin_OT wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    trust us when we tell you, TPS hurt the game and the fan base. at the very least, it had alienated anyone who had somewhat mastered the 09-12 years. there was no motivation to keep playing since no one really asked for a new skating engine in the first place. personally, i just spend that time i used to dedicate for NHL on other games now like GTA or whatever new shooter is out.

    I definitely get the point about people who had mastered the game during those years. That said, there were a lot of people that complained about figure skaters and a new skating engine should be a welcome addition to a hockey game. It is always a risk to advance core tech in your game but I think that is something teams should always be looking to do where it makes sense. The decision to move to a new skating engine was decided before I started on gameplay so I can't take credit for that call but the majority of my job with skating that year was to figure out how the new skating engine, the tuning, etc. was going to fix issues people had with the old skating model -- accountability was a big part. I think it is great that pivots are actually a part of the game and that you can manage your gap by understanding when to skate forwards and pivot to backskating and that you then need to choose when to pivot and commit rather than just sliding sideways across your skates. Sure there are places where it can be better but that was the case with the old model as well which had hit some limitations to advance further.

    Overall, it brought fresh life to the series and some people adapted and embraced the change and others as you mentioned decided that they didn't have that mastery anymore and moved on rather than seeing it as another piece they could master above their competition.

    We have snipers but if shooting people with guns is what you are after, I am not sure any skating engine will make a difference there.
    The issue isn't the fact that the game changed and people had to relearn the skating aspect of it.

    The issue was, and still is, control. The game FELT great to play in 'the glory days'. The issues that came with TPS were, and still are to this day, 100% about control and the way the game FEELS to play.

    TPS makes the game FEEL clunky, and has since it was introduced. You can make the best game ever made but if it FEELS clunky you will alienate a lot of players.

    This is the most important aspect of every single video game ever made. The control and the FEEL. NHL has FELT clunky/bad to play since TPS.

    The clunky/bad feeling of control in this game is the #1 reason why people dislike it and are playing it less and less.

    People don't need customization and all that jazz in EASHL, although it is great can't argue that. EASHL could be the most basic and bare bones mode and people would play it all year if the CONTROL and FEEL of the game was good again.

    Look at a game like rocket league. Super simple, super high skill ceiling, and it FEELS great to play. Imagine if you had to constantly tap LT in order to orient your car in the direction you want, and it would still sometimes spin out of control. That is what NHL is like since TPS.

    Make NHL FEEL great to skate and control your player again and 95% of the remaining issues become minor annoyances that you can chip away at in the coming years.

    Where's the bloody LIKE button?

    The control and FEEL is what connects a user to the game. If the control FEELS like a chore and the user has to micromanage/fight with the controller to get their character to do what they want they won't feel connected to the game, they won't be able to truly enjoy the experience.

    EA, you guys can add whatever you want to the game but until you solve this issue of clunky FEEL when trying to maneuver/strafe/face without the puck the masses won't truly enjoy this game.

    This should be the absolute most important thing on your list to fix. It is a travesty it's been this bad for so long now.

    You've done a lot of work in other areas of gameplay and for the most part they are great.

    Solve this control issue and allow users to FEEL connected to the game again and you have a pretty **** good game. We don't care if some things might have to 'look' unrealistic, FEEL should trump that 100% of the time.

    Imagine if driving a car in GTA always felt like it does when you are driving on your rims, even when your tires are fine. Could users manage? Yup. They would never allow this to happen though. It would be a terrible experience.

    This is exactly what NHL has felt like since TPS. Not all the time, for the most part when you have the puck it FEELS good, a lot of the time when you don't have the puck though it FEELS like ****.

    Again, it is a travesty this game has been allowed to go on like this for so long. Allowing the FEEL and control to remain like this is easily one of the biggest blunders this series has ever seen since its inception.

    agreed 100%. we shouldn't have to wait until next year either. they need to patch this game ASAP before everyone quits for the year once this season of league is over. making some good posts lately EH BUD!
  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    BSDShoes wrote: »
    Workin_OT wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    trust us when we tell you, TPS hurt the game and the fan base. at the very least, it had alienated anyone who had somewhat mastered the 09-12 years. there was no motivation to keep playing since no one really asked for a new skating engine in the first place. personally, i just spend that time i used to dedicate for NHL on other games now like GTA or whatever new shooter is out.

    I definitely get the point about people who had mastered the game during those years. That said, there were a lot of people that complained about figure skaters and a new skating engine should be a welcome addition to a hockey game. It is always a risk to advance core tech in your game but I think that is something teams should always be looking to do where it makes sense. The decision to move to a new skating engine was decided before I started on gameplay so I can't take credit for that call but the majority of my job with skating that year was to figure out how the new skating engine, the tuning, etc. was going to fix issues people had with the old skating model -- accountability was a big part. I think it is great that pivots are actually a part of the game and that you can manage your gap by understanding when to skate forwards and pivot to backskating and that you then need to choose when to pivot and commit rather than just sliding sideways across your skates. Sure there are places where it can be better but that was the case with the old model as well which had hit some limitations to advance further.

    Overall, it brought fresh life to the series and some people adapted and embraced the change and others as you mentioned decided that they didn't have that mastery anymore and moved on rather than seeing it as another piece they could master above their competition.

    We have snipers but if shooting people with guns is what you are after, I am not sure any skating engine will make a difference there.
    The issue isn't the fact that the game changed and people had to relearn the skating aspect of it.

    The issue was, and still is, control. The game FELT great to play in 'the glory days'. The issues that came with TPS were, and still are to this day, 100% about control and the way the game FEELS to play.

    TPS makes the game FEEL clunky, and has since it was introduced. You can make the best game ever made but if it FEELS clunky you will alienate a lot of players.

    This is the most important aspect of every single video game ever made. The control and the FEEL. NHL has FELT clunky/bad to play since TPS.

    The clunky/bad feeling of control in this game is the #1 reason why people dislike it and are playing it less and less.

    People don't need customization and all that jazz in EASHL, although it is great can't argue that. EASHL could be the most basic and bare bones mode and people would play it all year if the CONTROL and FEEL of the game was good again.

    Look at a game like rocket league. Super simple, super high skill ceiling, and it FEELS great to play. Imagine if you had to constantly tap LT in order to orient your car in the direction you want, and it would still sometimes spin out of control. That is what NHL is like since TPS.

    Make NHL FEEL great to skate and control your player again and 95% of the remaining issues become minor annoyances that you can chip away at in the coming years.

    Where's the bloody LIKE button?

    The control and FEEL is what connects a user to the game. If the control FEELS like a chore and the user has to micromanage/fight with the controller to get their character to do what they want they won't feel connected to the game, they won't be able to truly enjoy the experience.

    EA, you guys can add whatever you want to the game but until you solve this issue of clunky FEEL when trying to maneuver/strafe/face without the puck the masses won't truly enjoy this game.

    This should be the absolute most important thing on your list to fix. It is a travesty it's been this bad for so long now.

    You've done a lot of work in other areas of gameplay and for the most part they are great.

    Solve this control issue and allow users to FEEL connected to the game again and you have a pretty **** good game. We don't care if some things might have to 'look' unrealistic, FEEL should trump that 100% of the time.

    Imagine if driving a car in GTA always felt like it does when you are driving on your rims, even when your tires are fine. Could users manage? Yup. They would never allow this to happen though. It would be a terrible experience.

    This is exactly what NHL has felt like since TPS. Not all the time, for the most part when you have the puck it FEELS good, a lot of the time when you don't have the puck though it FEELS like ****.

    Again, it is a travesty this game has been allowed to go on like this for so long. Allowing the FEEL and control to remain like this is easily one of the biggest blunders this series has ever seen since its inception.

    agreed 100%. we shouldn't have to wait until next year either. they need to patch this game ASAP before everyone quits for the year once this season of league is over. making some good posts lately EH BUD!

    It's sad because I don't think they truly understand how big of an issue this really is. I think a lot of users don't even realize it either..

    They like to try to please the most people they can. Fix this issue and almost everyone will think this game is fun again.

    Look how much talk there has been around the feel and control of goalies this year.. That isn't a coincidence.

    Control and feel is the most important aspect of all video games. A large part of TPS has felt like **** for years now. Fix this issue, that should never have been allowed to launch in the state it is in, and still is in 5+ years later, and the issues remaining become quite minor and the game will take off and the masses will start enjoying it again.
  • Workin_OT wrote: »
    BSDShoes wrote: »
    Workin_OT wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »

    trust us when we tell you, TPS hurt the game and the fan base. at the very least, it had alienated anyone who had somewhat mastered the 09-12 years. there was no motivation to keep playing since no one really asked for a new skating engine in the first place. personally, i just spend that time i used to dedicate for NHL on other games now like GTA or whatever new shooter is out.

    I definitely get the point about people who had mastered the game during those years. That said, there were a lot of people that complained about figure skaters and a new skating engine should be a welcome addition to a hockey game. It is always a risk to advance core tech in your game but I think that is something teams should always be looking to do where it makes sense. The decision to move to a new skating engine was decided before I started on gameplay so I can't take credit for that call but the majority of my job with skating that year was to figure out how the new skating engine, the tuning, etc. was going to fix issues people had with the old skating model -- accountability was a big part. I think it is great that pivots are actually a part of the game and that you can manage your gap by understanding when to skate forwards and pivot to backskating and that you then need to choose when to pivot and commit rather than just sliding sideways across your skates. Sure there are places where it can be better but that was the case with the old model as well which had hit some limitations to advance further.

    Overall, it brought fresh life to the series and some people adapted and embraced the change and others as you mentioned decided that they didn't have that mastery anymore and moved on rather than seeing it as another piece they could master above their competition.

    We have snipers but if shooting people with guns is what you are after, I am not sure any skating engine will make a difference there.
    The issue isn't the fact that the game changed and people had to relearn the skating aspect of it.

    The issue was, and still is, control. The game FELT great to play in 'the glory days'. The issues that came with TPS were, and still are to this day, 100% about control and the way the game FEELS to play.

    TPS makes the game FEEL clunky, and has since it was introduced. You can make the best game ever made but if it FEELS clunky you will alienate a lot of players.

    This is the most important aspect of every single video game ever made. The control and the FEEL. NHL has FELT clunky/bad to play since TPS.

    The clunky/bad feeling of control in this game is the #1 reason why people dislike it and are playing it less and less.

    People don't need customization and all that jazz in EASHL, although it is great can't argue that. EASHL could be the most basic and bare bones mode and people would play it all year if the CONTROL and FEEL of the game was good again.

    Look at a game like rocket league. Super simple, super high skill ceiling, and it FEELS great to play. Imagine if you had to constantly tap LT in order to orient your car in the direction you want, and it would still sometimes spin out of control. That is what NHL is like since TPS.

    Make NHL FEEL great to skate and control your player again and 95% of the remaining issues become minor annoyances that you can chip away at in the coming years.

    Where's the bloody LIKE button?

    The control and FEEL is what connects a user to the game. If the control FEELS like a chore and the user has to micromanage/fight with the controller to get their character to do what they want they won't feel connected to the game, they won't be able to truly enjoy the experience.

    EA, you guys can add whatever you want to the game but until you solve this issue of clunky FEEL when trying to maneuver/strafe/face without the puck the masses won't truly enjoy this game.

    This should be the absolute most important thing on your list to fix. It is a travesty it's been this bad for so long now.

    You've done a lot of work in other areas of gameplay and for the most part they are great.

    Solve this control issue and allow users to FEEL connected to the game again and you have a pretty **** good game. We don't care if some things might have to 'look' unrealistic, FEEL should trump that 100% of the time.

    Imagine if driving a car in GTA always felt like it does when you are driving on your rims, even when your tires are fine. Could users manage? Yup. They would never allow this to happen though. It would be a terrible experience.

    This is exactly what NHL has felt like since TPS. Not all the time, for the most part when you have the puck it FEELS good, a lot of the time when you don't have the puck though it FEELS like ****.

    Again, it is a travesty this game has been allowed to go on like this for so long. Allowing the FEEL and control to remain like this is easily one of the biggest blunders this series has ever seen since its inception.

    agreed 100%. we shouldn't have to wait until next year either. they need to patch this game ASAP before everyone quits for the year once this season of league is over. making some good posts lately EH BUD!

    Yea, I almost miss the old Workin_OT that I could argue with all day about more minor things like deflections and whether faceoffs should be even for all EASHL builds. He was one of the most optimistic people here it felt, but even he's been hammering away here.

    I get the reasoning that in real life a player can't instantly start changing directions without shifting their weight, but I don't think it makes sense to have in this game. I've already thought about where I want to go, and it took the time required to move my LS appropriately to aim that direction, but I then need to wait for that signal to reach the server, for the game to find a break in the animation, make the pivot it decides is appropriate, and then finally start moving in that direction. This all of course assumes that nothing changes over that period of time where I slightly change the direction I want to go to avoid a hit or something.

    It's taking away so much responsiveness from the user to keep the game looking believable. I've tried everything from changing ISPs, routers, controllers, TVs, and all the crazy ideas that people have on the forum only to keep seeing the exact same behavior game after game. It's not that I don't want skating that looks realistic, I just don't think it can work in such a fast paced game, especially in an online format. I feel like I need to be able to perform every action a quarter of a second before I actually want it to happen if I want to be successful at this game.

    Worse is that there seems to be no acknowledgement that this problem exists. Sure, Ben mentions making improvements here and there, but there needs to be an almost instant response when playing online.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    TPS "feels like ****" because there's a disparity between skating with the puck and without the puck where the player with it has more agility than the player without it.

    That's LUDICROUS!!!

    If anything it should be the other way around. I know Ben has said time and time again that he's not particularly an "offense first" type of guy. But since he took over the reigns of the gameplay department, the game has remained skewed towards the offensive side as it had been before his tenure. Yes, more tools were added to the defense and goalies, but they've never been adequate enough to keep the offense in check.

    Right now, most of the problem is the fact that we lack the mobility to keep up with the forwards. On defense, we have no tools to really contain them on the rush and force them to the outside. We have to take a gamble on a timely poke check or body check, and if that fails, we get burned. As for the Goalies, if the forward just barrels in full tilt and swerves left or right at the last minute, there's little else we can do but take a wild guess and hope we can put a limb on the puck, while he will still enjoy super human puck control and accuracy regardless. Hockey shouldn't be about "taking a guess".

    TPS is not the problem. Forwards with the puck have ALWAYS been the best position in the game. Even before TPS, if you had the puck you could do some crazy stuff and weave your way around right towards the net. While Defenders and Goalies lacked the tools to cope, which is why things like hits were overpowered at one point and goalies needed to have spider-man reflexes.

    We COULD have the tools we need now. But sadly we're left wanting... Again.

    EDIT: BTW, it's amazing how much insight Workin_OT actually has when he's not being a dewshbaggg.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    TPS "feels like ****" because there's a disparity between skating with the puck and without the puck where the player with it has more agility than the player without it.

    That's LUDICROUS!!!

    If anything it should be the other way around. I know Ben has said time and time again that he's not particularly an "offense first" type of guy. But since he took over the reigns of the gameplay department, the game has remained skewed towards the offensive side as it had been before his tenure. Yes, more tools were added to the defense and goalies, but they've never been adequate enough to keep the offense in check.

    Right now, most of the problem is the fact that we lack the mobility to keep up with the forwards. On defense, we have no tools to really contain them on the rush and force them to the outside. We have to take a gamble on a timely poke check or body check, and if that fails, we get burned. As for the Goalies, if the forward just barrels in full tilt and swerves left or right at the last minute, there's little else we can do but take a wild guess and hope we can put a limb on the puck, while he will still enjoy super human puck control and accuracy regardless.

    TPS is not the problem. Forwards with the puck have ALWAYS been the best position in the game. Even before TPS, if you had the puck you could do some crazy stuff and weave your way around right towards the net. While Defenders and Goalies lacked the tools to cope, which is why things like hits were overpowered at one point and goalies needed to have spider-man reflexes.

    We COULD have the tools we need now. But sadly we're left wanting... Again.

    It is not the lack of tools on defense. It is simply the fact that controlling/maneuvering/strafing/facing your player feels like dog ****.

    Offense is fine where it is at. They need to fix defensive control of your player and things will be good again.

    In 'the glory days' offense with the puck still had more movement abilities than defense without it. People didn't complain about that back then. Why? Because there was no issues with controlling your defensive player. It felt smooth, you never had to micromanage/fight the controls.

    In 'the glory days' defense had less tools than they do now. People weren't all up in arms about a lack of defensive tools why? Because there was no issues with controlling your defensive player. It felt smooth, you never had to micromanage/fight the controls and there was no problem getting in a position to make defensive plays.

    Offense is fine, the defensive tools in the game are fine, although D skill stick would still be nice. TPS has some good aspects to it, and others that are dog ****.

    All they need to do is fix the slower speed maneuvering/strafing/facing to FEEL completely smooth again, eh bud? o:)
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