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AI Play is not what you think it is

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Ever play against the computer? If so, when you touch the controller the AI reacts to the controller commands, not the actual play on the screen. Interesting observation. Thoughts?

Replies

  • Assisted_6 wrote: »
    Assisted_6 wrote: »
    Ya it's pretty known at this point which is why they are so OP and everyone would rather the ai play D for them online because they can react to situations based off controller input. EA really screwed up

    This is the reason I rarely play teams/players in EASHL that have two A.I dman. A lot of forwards will just cherry pick and call for perfect passes all game.

    Yep teams don't have to be responsible at all defensively if you have 2 ai D it's a joke and the complete opposite of how it should be

    This garbage goes on in every multiplayer game, not just NHL. Exploiters always look to take shortcuts and cheat. Nothing you can really do about it.
  • Taste-D-Rainbow
    2514 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    I mentioned this at launch. I play on Superstar and trying to evade an attacker in the defensive zone is impossible even with Karlsson because they have no reaction delay. They literally close in on you and don't suffer from imput delay or lag. Unless you pick up the puck in stride they will catch you.

    As someone else mentioned with the CPU making reacting to the controller and the ability to tie up every single time without error, its completely understandable why people won't control their Dmen.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    The AI is programmed to read inputs. It's been this way since the First NHL game. Go back and play your precious NHL 09 or 12 and you'll see the same thing. But that's all the AI is good at. It can shadow you move for move, but it doesn't contain the play. It doesn't force the puck holder into the boards. It doesn't stick lift someone going through them in the slot.

    People who say the AI is "OP" are lying to themselves and they're mostly people that play 1v1 modes like HUT and VS. Just play against these people and see what they do when they rush in against your defense: 99.8% of the time they'll head over to the side where the d-man is being controlled by the AI. Why is that if the AI is so OP? Wouldn't you prefer to face off against the human controlled d-man, if you know the AI is that good that you can't get around it?

    LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL!!

    All these people are hypocrites. Don't be fooled, the AI is trash and these people know it. It's in this state because that's what they asked EA for... And EA listened to them. If the AI was at least competent, GOOD players would be able to pressure the puck holder while the AI takes care of the perimeter and good opponents would still be able to work the puck around to generate scoring chances. But that's not how the AI works now. You're basically forced to chase the puck holder, switching players when a pass is made and hoping to god the game switches you to the correct player to follow the play. All the while the AI is just a mess and out of position or skating in the wrong direction or just standing in place like a lemon.

    This game would be 100% better if the AI was allowed to play like it knows how to play hockey. But then that would mean all these dangle berries would have to learn how to play hockey too, and we wouldn't want something like that now would we? Nah, it's much easier to puck protect bubble your way through 3 AI defenders and score top-shelf + celly. And the one time the AI actually does something good like hit them off the puck or intercept a bone headed pass across the ice "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! THE AI IS SO OP!! NERF IT EA!!!".

    *sigh*
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is programmed to read inputs. It's been this way since the First NHL game. Go back and play your precious NHL 09 or 12 and you'll see the same thing. But that's all the AI is good at. It can shadow you move for move, but it doesn't contain the play. It doesn't force the puck holder into the boards. It doesn't stick lift someone going through them in the slot.

    People who say the AI is "OP" are lying to themselves and they're mostly people that play 1v1 modes like HUT and VS. Just play against these people and see what they do when they rush in against your defense: 99.8% of the time they'll head over to the side where the d-man is being controlled by the AI. Why is that if the AI is so OP? Wouldn't you prefer to face off against the human controlled d-man, if you know the AI is that good that you can't get around it?

    LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL!!

    All these people are hypocrites. Don't be fooled, the AI is trash and these people know it. It's in this state because that's what they asked EA for... And EA listened to them. If the AI was at least competent, GOOD players would be able to pressure the puck holder while the AI takes care of the perimeter and good opponents would still be able to work the puck around to generate scoring chances. But that's not how the AI works now. You're basically forced to chase the puck holder, switching players when a pass is made and hoping to god the game switches you to the correct player to follow the play. All the while the AI is just a mess and out of position or skating in the wrong direction or just standing in place like a lemon.

    This game would be 100% better if the AI was allowed to play like it knows how to play hockey. But then that would mean all these dangle berries would have to learn how to play hockey too, and we wouldn't want something like that now would we? Nah, it's much easier to puck protect bubble your way through 3 AI defenders and score top-shelf + celly. And the one time the AI actually does something good like hit them off the puck or intercept a bone headed pass across the ice "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! THE AI IS SO OP!! NERF IT EA!!!".

    *sigh*

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAH Yes.


  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is programmed to read inputs. It's been this way since the First NHL game. Go back and play your precious NHL 09 or 12 and you'll see the same thing. But that's all the AI is good at. It can shadow you move for move, but it doesn't contain the play. It doesn't force the puck holder into the boards. It doesn't stick lift someone going through them in the slot.

    People who say the AI is "OP" are lying to themselves and they're mostly people that play 1v1 modes like HUT and VS. Just play against these people and see what they do when they rush in against your defense: 99.8% of the time they'll head over to the side where the d-man is being controlled by the AI. Why is that if the AI is so OP? Wouldn't you prefer to face off against the human controlled d-man, if you know the AI is that good that you can't get around it?

    LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL!!

    All these people are hypocrites. Don't be fooled, the AI is trash and these people know it. It's in this state because that's what they asked EA for... And EA listened to them. If the AI was at least competent, GOOD players would be able to pressure the puck holder while the AI takes care of the perimeter and good opponents would still be able to work the puck around to generate scoring chances. But that's not how the AI works now. You're basically forced to chase the puck holder, switching players when a pass is made and hoping to god the game switches you to the correct player to follow the play. All the while the AI is just a mess and out of position or skating in the wrong direction or just standing in place like a lemon.

    This game would be 100% better if the AI was allowed to play like it knows how to play hockey. But then that would mean all these dangle berries would have to learn how to play hockey too, and we wouldn't want something like that now would we? Nah, it's much easier to puck protect bubble your way through 3 AI defenders and score top-shelf + celly. And the one time the AI actually does something good like hit them off the puck or intercept a bone headed pass across the ice "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! THE AI IS SO OP!! NERF IT EA!!!".

    *sigh*

    I'm going to have to disagree with this. The AI is very inconsistent, there are many games where my teams AI dman is trash and scores on our own net while the other teams AI is literally impossible to get around. There are games where I can walk around the whole team but once I get to the AI he superman body checks me with no speed at all, or a 2 on 1 against 1 AI defender and I saucer pass it and he just bats it out of the air like nothing. There are also times where puck protect can be unrealistically effective vs humans but doesn't work at all against a compie. I recall a recent 4v4 game where my club faced a team that mastered the puck protect, none of us could touch them, it was very frustrating BUT they couldn't puck protect against our 1 AI dman, we let them do their stupidness and just covered passing lanes and we would just let the compie bump them out of puck protect. We won that game literally because of our 1 AI dmans ability to bump players out of the puck protect bubble.
  • VeNOM2099
    3178 posts Member
    edited November 2016
    It has nothing to do with the AI being stupid on your end and the AI being Godlike on the other end. It has to do with your mental ability to handle it.

    I'll give you an example: the other day I played a drop in as goalie. We had 6 players on each side. My team quickly got a 4-0 lead. They were out shooting the opponents something like 10 shots to 1, with about 3 minutes of TOA. They were Out passing them. They had more time on attack. Basically we were dominating them. The other goalie quit after the 4th goal. For the remainder of the game we had 5 shots on net with 5 minutes of attack and zero goals.

    The other team went on to score 6 goals on 28 shots and 13 minutes on attack. So what happened? Were they bested by the overpowered AI goalie? No... They simply fell apart because they let themselves believe that they couldn't beat the AI. They spent the rest of the game looking for "perfect" shots to beat it, when all they needed to do is continue doing what they were doing at the beginning, which was to keep possession of the puck, cycle it around and create scoring chances.

    And yet I've been on teams that score 2 goals on a human goalie, the goalie quits and we still destroy the AI goalie with another 5-6 goals. Why? Because the team didn't stop playing because they were facing a bot in nets. And well they shouldn't because the AI is really bad.
    Post edited by VeNOM2099 on
  • Ever play against the computer? If so, when you touch the controller the AI reacts to the controller commands, not the actual play on the screen. Interesting observation. Thoughts?

    I think you are dead-on with this. I have always noticed that as well, and even voiced that observation back on the older EA forums they used to have. That's why the games where you feel stuck in mud all game long it seems like everything you do with the puck is being shut down. You can press the pass button for a pass or move the RS for a shot, but EVERYTHING is being deflected, blocked, or intercepted because the opponent's AI seems to be reacting to the button presses and not the on-ice animations.

    In chronological order, you press a button, your opponent's AI reacts to that button press, and THEN your intended controller action/animation is allowed to carry out on the ice.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    The AI is programmed to read inputs. It's been this way since the First NHL game. Go back and play your precious NHL 09 or 12 and you'll see the same thing. But that's all the AI is good at. It can shadow you move for move, but it doesn't contain the play. It doesn't force the puck holder into the boards. It doesn't stick lift someone going through them in the slot.

    People who say the AI is "OP" are lying to themselves and they're mostly people that play 1v1 modes like HUT and VS. Just play against these people and see what they do when they rush in against your defense: 99.8% of the time they'll head over to the side where the d-man is being controlled by the AI. Why is that if the AI is so OP? Wouldn't you prefer to face off against the human controlled d-man, if you know the AI is that good that you can't get around it?

    LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL!!

    All these people are hypocrites. Don't be fooled, the AI is trash and these people know it. It's in this state because that's what they asked EA for... And EA listened to them. If the AI was at least competent, GOOD players would be able to pressure the puck holder while the AI takes care of the perimeter and good opponents would still be able to work the puck around to generate scoring chances. But that's not how the AI works now. You're basically forced to chase the puck holder, switching players when a pass is made and hoping to god the game switches you to the correct player to follow the play. All the while the AI is just a mess and out of position or skating in the wrong direction or just standing in place like a lemon.

    This game would be 100% better if the AI was allowed to play like it knows how to play hockey. But then that would mean all these dangle berries would have to learn how to play hockey too, and we wouldn't want something like that now would we? Nah, it's much easier to puck protect bubble your way through 3 AI defenders and score top-shelf + celly. And the one time the AI actually does something good like hit them off the puck or intercept a bone headed pass across the ice "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! THE AI IS SO OP!! NERF IT EA!!!".

    *sigh*

    So... How is it that in EASHL when we play club with human goalie and 4-5 human skaters and get matched against teams with one skater (center) and a human goalie, the two opponents are always ready to play, while my 4 to 5 team mates would rather kill themselves than play the game? How is that so, if the AI isn't that good? And yes, we have played 6vs2 and some times won some times lost, so we know exactly what it is like. Please explain.
  • In all honesty, you and your teammates are simply mind f****d. You guys see the AI players on the other team and your thought process stops.

    Yet I bet you and your teammates could CRUSH these people individually in HUT or VS. which is basically the same thing; you vs. ONE human player and 5 AI players.

    It's not really the AI you fear, it's that you'll get beaten by only 2 human players vs. your 5 or 6.
  • VeNOM2099 wrote: »
    In all honesty, you and your teammates are simply mind f****d. You guys see the AI players on the other team and your thought process stops.

    Yet I bet you and your teammates could CRUSH these people individually in HUT or VS. which is basically the same thing; you vs. ONE human player and 5 AI players.

    It's not really the AI you fear, it's that you'll get beaten by only 2 human players vs. your 5 or 6.

    I know we would crush them in 1vs1, but it doesn't matter. The center who plays with 4 AI players doesn't need to do much for it to be hard for us. Win some faceoffs and maybe carry the puck in for the bots to start their mad puck cycling. Maybe they will pass it back to the human player, in that case the guy just needs to throw a low shot on the net and watch AI wingers be first on almost every rebound.

    "Well if it so easy why don't you do it?" I have done it. I have played 2vs6 as the only skater and it is very easy. Way too easy. (Those games happen very rarely as the team with 6 players always backs out.) Of course if the opponents are from the very top of the leaderboards as a 6v6 team, they won't be making easy mistakes for my AI to punish and it gets harder. But other than that, AI will dominate those games.

    That comparision to HUT or VS is stupid for many reasons, but mostly because in 1vs1 AI isn't defending (excluding skill zone) or scoring for you.
  • I'm only talking about the AI on defense. And it CAN contribute offensively in 1v1 matches if the opponent plays position lock, which I've seen a few times. And both times they did that, I destroyed them.

    I don't let myself get intimidated by the AI. If my opponent is dumb and wants to rely on dumb bots, better for me. The only thing I that really gets on my nerve in this game is when stupid EA goals go in. On both sides... Like one game, I was going absolutely nuts trying to score. Nothing I did was working. Same for my opponent. And we both had some legit scoring chances that would've gone in under normal circumstances, but no. So it's 0-0 game up until the last moments of the 3rd period where I just walked in across my opponent's blue line and decided to fire off a wrister on his goalie and see if I could generate a rebound or something. It just beat him clean under the glove. Not even screened.

    Like... ****! It was such a great game and it gets frickin ruined like that... I was disgusted. I hate winning (and losing) games in a contrived manner like that.

    Like, that's not AI, that's just dumb EA logic; Just because I took a shot from a "high percentage area" it automatically has to go in... Seriously?
  • Bacon just did a video on the topic. It's obviously sarcastically over the top, but the poin still stands. AI is better than human on defense in some situations, because of what is said in the OP. AI reads you from what you do with your controller, so it's impossible to avoid a hit etc. once AI locks on. And that is ****.

  • 3lias wrote: »
    Bacon just did a video on the topic. It's obviously sarcastically over the top, but the poin still stands. AI is better than human on defense in some situations, because of what is said in the OP. AI reads you from what you do with your controller, so it's impossible to avoid a hit etc. once AI locks on. And that is ****.


    That's a pretty terrible video. When people complain about the AI, they're not complaining about how the AI plays on-the-puck defense. Everyone knows the AI's pretty good at that, and really good at hitting -- that's why people skill zone. The problem with the AI is the way they play off-the-puck defense -- overpursuing, turning their backs on the play, wandering out of position, etc. That's why so many people skill zone in this game -- you can't trust the defensive AI to play reliably behind you.
  • Assisted_6 wrote: »
    The ai should be solid positionally but very passive to the point you don't want to rely on them. It sounds bad I know, but go back to last gen and you will see how passive they were compared to now and it worked. It would also benefit vs and hut gameplay to prevent skillzone, make the ai positionally good so they are always there for you to switch to and force the turnover, but if you don't switch to them chances are they will let the guy get a good scoring chance.

    Defensive AI this year (and in the new-gen game) generally is roughly the opposite of this: they're reasonably good on the puck, but terrible positionally. They're also bizarrely bad at recognizing where the puck is, especially when it's in the neutral zone -- it's ridiculous how many clean scoring chances are created in this game because defensemen just skate blissfully up to their own blue line while the puck carrier is streaking into the offensive zone.

  • Assisted_6 wrote: »
    No argument needs to be made over this because it's clearly an issue otherwise skill zone and people not switching to their D wouldn't exist. People don't control the D because they feel it puts them at a disadvantage and the ai can do a better job then they can. That should NEVER be an option in a competitive game where the thought of not controlling things yourself is the better option.

    Venom you say that it's all in people's heads about computers but it's not. The past year or so my club has had no choice but to play 3s and 4s the majority of our games due to all the guys we used to play with not interested in the series anymore. In that year I'd say we average 20 to 30 wins to a loss so clearly we know how to beat the computer. The problem is that while we still win those 3s games, it is a lot tougher then playing 4s and 5s due to the computers seeming like the best player(s) on the ice constantly for other teams. When we play 5s with computer goalies we can pass it around and dangle in with the puck with no issues, as soon as 1-2 computers are added in they are the ones constantly forcing the turnovers and bailing the other team out for being out of position.

    I remember nhl 13 me and my buddy had a 2nd account 2s team where he played center I played lw. We were 6th overall for clubs and the difference in playstyle from then to now is completely opposite. We used to always have to make sure 1 of the 2 of us were playing defensively and covering both their humans at all times and if we both got caught down low in their zone and turned it over we were screwed. The computers weren't aggressive at all which may seem bad but it forced humans to be defensively responsible and If you didn't wanna play D even as a forward you were gunna get burned which is how it should be especially in 2s and 3s. What you have now is guys who know they don't have to play any form of defense and rely fully on computers and unless you are a skilled player and know how to beat them, which most people don't, then letting the computers play for you will work for the high majority of your games

    Like I said, whether you play 2s 3s 4s etc. The humans should be responsible for forcing the majority of the turnovers not the AI. The ai should be solid positionally but very passive to the point you don't want to rely on them. It sounds bad I know, but go back to last gen and you will see how passive they were compared to now and it worked. It would also benefit vs and hut gameplay to prevent skillzone, make the ai positionally good so they are always there for you to switch to and force the turnover, but if you don't switch to them chances are they will let the guy get a good scoring chance. That's the way it should be

    This is the problem that EA has created since NHL 13...simply stated. On defense, your human skater is bound by every physics rule in the book (according to TPS) where the skater with the puck isn't bound by many at all. The AI is held to even less rules than that. EA wants to add this for realism and that for randomness, but the amount they add differs between human defenders, human puck-handlers, and AI skaters. None of this random/realism stuff seems to happen to any of the AI skaters, but the AI goalie gets hosed all game long some games.

    And not to beat a dead horse further, but the poor INTERNET performance of this game since NHL 13 just amplifies all of these problems. Skill-zoning wasn't a thing until EA made it nearly impossible for you to handle the positioning of your skater with any consistency.

    What can you do though when EA just doesn't seem to "get it"
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