After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I am torn on this. On the one hand, I totally get (and agree with to a point) what you are saying. But the comparison to other spots, particularly basketball... I would have to ponder how valid a comparison that is, given how different skating is from running. It has a lot more critical importance I think in how you get around defenders etc... food for thought...
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I am torn on this. On the one hand, I totally get (and agree with to a point) what you are saying. But the comparison to other spots, particularly basketball... I would have to ponder how valid a comparison that is, given how different skating is from running. It has a lot more critical importance I think in how you get around defenders etc... food for thought...
is it really that different?
Try to run sideways or backward.
Its not easy and you can fall. Yet, on defense in basketball and soccer, you are required to run backwards and pivot and run sideways to an extent (except the stance will change based on the need....IE: you dont move your right left over your left leg, you spread your legs and you do quick hops to the right or left) But during these hops maybe the guy started passing you and now you need to pivot and start actually running with him....this is all done mostly automatically with minimal effort. They COULD make it ultra complex to simulate the difficulties of running or risking to trip and fall but they dont....thats not why you play basketball although a guy who moves well in any sports will perform much better.
Volleyball may be a better example since I play it. Training volleyball you would be surprised just HOW MUCH TIME you spend training movement. Lateral movements in particular. its ULTRA important to be able to move laterally fast to be on balls and in control faster and more consistently and as much as you'd think it would be natural and easy to move on your feet, youd be shocked how much practice you need to get better at it...its hard as hell. just like skating efficiently is pretty darn hard. BUT volleyball games dont make super complex movement schemes to represent the difficulties of walking / running / moving laterally / jumping technique/ etc. They just automate most of it.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I absolutely love this summary, especially the bold part.
It should NOT take rocket science to skate when dekes have been dumbed down to where they are now. The dekes should require the talent (rocket science) to perform while the skating needs to be more "automatic" in what happens.
I'm sure a real hockey skater doesn't spend the whole shift thinking about his skating technique so much so that he does it at the expense of his hockey skill. He knows his limitations, but things should still be automatic for him where he can concentrate on the game instead.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I absolutely love this summary, especially the bold part.
It should NOT take rocket science to skate when dekes have been dumbed down to where they are now. The dekes should require the talent (rocket science) to perform while the skating needs to be more "automatic" in what happens.
I'm sure a real hockey skater doesn't spend the whole shift thinking about his skating technique so much so that he does it at the expense of his hockey skill. He knows his limitations, but things should still be automatic for him where he can concentrate on the game instead.
Yeah, I mean at the end of the day this sums it up about as good as anything. When guys in the NHL are playing, they aren't consciously thinking "I need to do a T-Push here and angle my skates in this way to move three feet and then defend." - they just do, it is instinct to them. The way we have to think about how we're going to try to move to where we want go is ultimately what makes the game a chore to play.
Pro-tip: play more in Team Practice as defender to improve skating ability, and other than practice mode, stop playing with AI teammates.
I know some people only play offline, but the AI is awful. I understand how difficult it is to create it, but still, it's awful.
If you think people shouldn't play with the AI, you're not just talking about not playing offline, you're talking about not playing any 1v1 mode at all. Which is a pretty grim indictment of this game, since the vast majority of this game's users play either offline or 1v1.
Yes, the AI is awful. But the answer should be for the devs to fix it, not for the game to lose 80% of its customer base.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I absolutely love this summary, especially the bold part.
It should NOT take rocket science to skate when dekes have been dumbed down to where they are now. The dekes should require the talent (rocket science) to perform while the skating needs to be more "automatic" in what happens.
I'm sure a real hockey skater doesn't spend the whole shift thinking about his skating technique so much so that he does it at the expense of his hockey skill. He knows his limitations, but things should still be automatic for him where he can concentrate on the game instead.
Yeah, I mean at the end of the day this sums it up about as good as anything. When guys in the NHL are playing, they aren't consciously thinking "I need to do a T-Push here and angle my skates in this way to move three feet and then defend." - they just do, it is instinct to them. The way we have to think about how we're going to try to move to where we want go is ultimately what makes the game a chore to play.
If only EA would actually agree on this point... If you need a great example of how little NHL skaters think about what they're doing, all you need to do is watch how they skate in a straight line. Look at a guy like Jack Eichel, who's stride is pretty well regarded as one of the most efficient in the league. Surely any NHL player could replicate that stride in practice, so why don't players skate like that in a game if it would allow them to use less energy?
The answer is that these players aren't thinking about their strides during the game. By the time most players reach the NHL, they've had 10+ years of skating experience, and it's just not easy to break their habits. The only way to do so is to practice the proper technique so much that it becomes second nature and you don't need to think about it. For many players, they might just not feel like the effort is worth the payoff when they could be working on any number of other skills.
In the end though, skating is certainly not in the forefront of players' minds in real life, but it very much is for this game.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
This is probably the best post in this entire thread and I echo it 100%.
You guys have really lost your way. When then focus of the game got away from hockey and became a skating simulator that doesn't even realistically simulate skating.. we are going down a dark road.
You think by explaining why you don't like something will get it fixed ?
Let's do some indepth discussion on comparison of realism to this game. Let's face it, EA wants a more realistic game as do the majority, let's get some real video examples and comparisons of what EA can do to fix these things. Gets annoying everyone says the same thing over and over, I don't like the skating, bring back NHl12 etc. Come on, quiet your whining and add some substance.
@Workin_OT and @NHLDev, they broke done some important stuff and they both learned different things to change how they play or how EA is gonna change a few things. That's real discussion.
Why can't we do that on a more consitent basis instead of everyone whining about how bad this game is? How is it gonna get fixed so you like, if no substance is brought up?
Let's face it, EA wants a more realistic game as do the majority
is this a joke or another troll from you? the entire front page of the forum is filled with people ragging on the skating engine. everyone on LG is calling for change. check NHL's twitter account, same thing. everyone in drop ins screams at the game.
in reality it's more like 2 or 3 people on these forums that like it the way it is, some posting on multiple accounts. not sure what rise you guys get out of defending a skating engine that has killed the game and the online player base?
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I really like what Kezz is saying.
If anything should be made easy in this game, it should be basic player movement. There should still be advanced moves that require more skill to pull off such as dekes, forward/backward transitions, 360s, etc. One of the biggest gripes currently is that at a very slow speed (almost stationary) it's hard to get your player to face in the direction you want. Nudging LS often results in an unwanted rotation instead of a strafe.
The skill in this game should be focused on the user's game awareness; ability to properly time one timers, dekes, hits, passes, deflections and poke checks; and managing strategies. Making skating too complicated takes away from all of the above.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
One of the best posts in a while, this series has strayed so far from being an enjoyable game it's crazy to think we even got to this point, but this post sums it up pretty well.
the thing is the EA Dev's think the TPS is the best thing since sliced bread and they wont admit to anything wrong with it. The skating engine had ruined EASHL for the exact reasons mentioned above.
For me the worst thing about the skating engine is all the animations that our player gets sucked into, for whatever reason as of late when i play Defence my Dman on a faceoff win like sprints forward in an unrealistic way and stuck in the animation before i can make a 1 touch pass or a pass or shot in general to get rid of it just leaves me wide open to be poke and its bloody annoying. Seems to only happen with neutral zone faceoff wins (only when my player is standing in the neutral zone)
All those stupid player cuts too are so unrealistic too play a game in HUT you can cut over and over again all the way down the ice and the opponent cant do anything about it if the player doing it knows **** hes doing with the animations properly.
Also before this TPS came out one could still play a game with lag but not since TPS came out you cant as its so unresponsive to move with the slightest bit of lag.
I should mention one positive about TPS though it handles AMAZING offline
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
Have you played NBA 2K16-17? You don't just twirl the joystick and turn on a dime. You have to use the LT to box out the player you're marking. You have to contend with physics while moving. Dribbling with the ball, you can't just spazz out and go left-right-left-right-left-right and come out still holding the ball. Especially not with the bigger, less agile players. Shooting the ball while running/having a player in your face affects your shot rating (among other things like hot zones, fatigue, clutch factor, etc).
Sure, you can tone the settings down until the game plays basically like NBA JAM if you want to. But at the default settings (and especially at the more hardcore SIM settings), the game isn't easy. In fact you'll probably end up losing the ball often. Clang bricks off the rim 6 times out of 10 shots. The CPU defense will be in your grill and steal the ball from you if you try to "dangle" around them without the necessary attribute skills. They'll throw hands in your face if you just try to shoot from anywhere.
I agree that in some instance, NHL 17's controls could be more responsive, but what's there is a good foundation. I'd settle for many of the game's PHYSICS shortcomings to be fixed before the controls though.
NHL 17 isn't anywhere NEAR as difficult as NBA 2K is and can be. Not in the controls. Not in the gameplay. And NHL 17 isn't even close to giving you an authentic NHL experience like NBA 2K can give you a near perfect NBA experience. From the gameplay to the presentation, EA's game can't even come up to Visual Concept's feet...
And you know what? NBA 2K fans love it that way, the hardcore ones; they don't want "easy". You want easy? Play NBA JAM. Play Double Dribble. Play NBA Ballers. You want basketball? Then NBA 2K's got ya back!
NHL needs more. Better controls, more controls. We need to be able to strafe, sidestep, backskate, turn around, shift weight, etc, all while keeping our upper body turned TOWARDS THE SHOOTER. And it has to be SEAMLESS (not like the puck pickups though... ). As a goalie we need to be able to slide, plant our skates to stop sliding and push off towards the other side, QUICKLY and PRECISELY. We need to be able to hug the post, go paddle down, come up and come off the post QUICKLY and PRECISELY. As defenders we NEED to be able to control our stick to block passing/shooting lines while we use our body to angle the puck holder towards the sides where they can't get to the good scoring areas. As attackers, we need to be able to use our bodies to shield the puck, not our STICKS (and put the puck behind our backs). There's so many control options that are missing in this game that would make this game "harder" by your standards, but it would make the game 10 times better.
Let's face it, EA wants a more realistic game as do the majority
is this a joke or another troll from you? the entire front page of the forum is filled with people ragging on the skating engine. everyone on LG is calling for change. check NHL's twitter account, same thing. everyone in drop ins screams at the game.
in reality it's more like 2 or 3 people on these forums that like it the way it is, some posting on multiple accounts. not sure what rise you guys get out of defending a skating engine that has killed the game and the online player base?
Yes Im Trolling by trying to get a more indepth discussion about the thing exact things you want to fix about the game, instead of just saying let's scrap the skating engine.
If people are leaving the game in droves, why then do every night we see a consistent 13-15k play(Xbox) when it's been like this for the past 2 years ?
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
Have you played NBA 2K16-17? You don't just twirl the joystick and turn on a dime. You have to use the LT to box out the player you're marking. You have to contend with physics while moving. Dribbling with the ball, you can't just spazz out and go left-right-left-right-left-right and come out still holding the ball. Especially not with the bigger, less agile players. Shooting the ball while running/having a player in your face affects your shot rating (among other things like hot zones, fatigue, clutch factor, etc).
Sure, you can tone the settings down until the game plays basically like NBA JAM if you want to. But at the default settings (and especially at the more hardcore SIM settings), the game isn't easy. In fact you'll probably end up losing the ball often. Clang bricks off the rim 6 times out of 10 shots. The CPU defense will be in your grill and steal the ball from you if you try to "dangle" around them without the necessary attribute skills. They'll throw hands in your face if you just try to shoot from anywhere.
I agree that in some instance, NHL 17's controls could be more responsive, but what's there is a good foundation. I'd settle for many of the game's PHYSICS shortcomings to be fixed before the controls though.
NHL 17 isn't anywhere NEAR as difficult as NBA 2K is and can be. Not in the controls. Not in the gameplay. And NHL 17 isn't even close to giving you an authentic NHL experience like NBA 2K can give you a near perfect NBA experience. From the gameplay to the presentation, EA's game can't even come up to Visual Concept's feet...
And you know what? NBA 2K fans love it that way, the hardcore ones; they don't want "easy". You want easy? Play NBA JAM. Play Double Dribble. Play NBA Ballers. You want basketball? Then NBA 2K's got ya back!
Cool, it sounds like 2K knows how to do things that are right and make sense. EA's NHL vs 2K's NBA is like apples-to-oranges though. To put this in better perspective, if 2K was to program their NBA game the way EA does their NHL game then you WOULD be able to dribble L-R-L-R-L-etc without ANY penalty whatsoever while the defense stands there stuck in whatever animation is programmed into the game. You would also be able to grab a loose ball facing the wrong direction and "snipe" the net just about every time very easily. There is no real penalty for skating speed or direction (though the EA Devs claim there is.)
We don't want EASY here either. We want hockey to be the main concentration in the game, not skating. If they program the skating part properly then it probably won't keep coming up in conversation every single week as it will become an afterthought or something that "just works" all or most of the time.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
Have you played NBA 2K16-17? You don't just twirl the joystick and turn on a dime. You have to use the LT to box out the player you're marking. You have to contend with physics while moving. Dribbling with the ball, you can't just spazz out and go left-right-left-right-left-right and come out still holding the ball. Especially not with the bigger, less agile players. Shooting the ball while running/having a player in your face affects your shot rating (among other things like hot zones, fatigue, clutch factor, etc).
Sure, you can tone the settings down until the game plays basically like NBA JAM if you want to. But at the default settings (and especially at the more hardcore SIM settings), the game isn't easy. In fact you'll probably end up losing the ball often. Clang bricks off the rim 6 times out of 10 shots. The CPU defense will be in your grill and steal the ball from you if you try to "dangle" around them without the necessary attribute skills. They'll throw hands in your face if you just try to shoot from anywhere.
I agree that in some instance, NHL 17's controls could be more responsive, but what's there is a good foundation. I'd settle for many of the game's PHYSICS shortcomings to be fixed before the controls though.
NHL 17 isn't anywhere NEAR as difficult as NBA 2K is and can be. Not in the controls. Not in the gameplay. And NHL 17 isn't even close to giving you an authentic NHL experience like NBA 2K can give you a near perfect NBA experience. From the gameplay to the presentation, EA's game can't even come up to Visual Concept's feet...
And you know what? NBA 2K fans love it that way, the hardcore ones; they don't want "easy". You want easy? Play NBA JAM. Play Double Dribble. Play NBA Ballers. You want basketball? Then NBA 2K's got ya back!
Cool, it sounds like 2K knows how to do things that are right and make sense. EA's NHL vs 2K's NBA is like apples-to-oranges though. To put this in better perspective, if 2K was to program their NBA game the way EA does their NHL game then you WOULD be able to dribble L-R-L-R-L-etc without ANY penalty whatsoever while the defense stands there stuck in whatever animation is programmed into the game. You would also be able to grab a loose ball facing the wrong direction and "snipe" the net just about every time very easily. There is no real penalty for skating speed or direction (though the EA Devs claim there is.)
We don't want EASY here either. We want hockey to be the main concentration in the game, not skating. If they program the skating part properly then it probably won't keep coming up in conversation every single week as it will become an afterthought or something that "just works" all or most of the time.
Well skating is probably 90% of hockey. If the skating is wrong, then it's not hockey. Here's an example, go back to NBA 2K5, where the gameplay was animation based instead of physics based like now. It was possible to do things that were very unrealistic. You could basically take the ball on your end and shake-n-bake your way to the net like clockwork every possession (or nearly) depending on your difficulty settings. That's something that was removed, more and more, as the game evolved. Nowadays, try those same tactics and you get burned. You'll lose the ball, you'll get it ripped off your hands from the defenders, or you'll simply come up against a wall on defense as the opposing players will use their body to contain you and box you out.
Sure you could "defend" back in the early NBA 2K titles, but it was never portrayed realistically. Players with the ball (and without) weren't held accountable for the way they moved on the court and it was pretty much anything goes, even if it wasn't physically possible. That's what past NHL games were like. Yes they controlled better, but players weren't held accountable for how they moved on the ice. And although, YES, you could defend against the dangle fairies, it was never attempted in a realistic fashion.
NHL 17 somewhat attempts to brings things down to earth a bit. It's not perfect. It's not even "very" realistic. But it's a start. NHL 17 makes you more accountable for how you skate with and without the puck. The main problem is that there's a disparity between the player with the puck, who enjoys an agility advantage, over the player without the puck.
That doesn't make sense... But the fact remains that we need to make the devs continue to IMPROVE tps, not scrap it altogether because some people are frustrated they can't just roll the gamepad on their face and come up with a 6 chain deke, snipe, celly...
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
Have you played NBA 2K16-17? You don't just twirl the joystick and turn on a dime. You have to use the LT to box out the player you're marking. You have to contend with physics while moving. Dribbling with the ball, you can't just spazz out and go left-right-left-right-left-right and come out still holding the ball. Especially not with the bigger, less agile players. Shooting the ball while running/having a player in your face affects your shot rating (among other things like hot zones, fatigue, clutch factor, etc).
Sure, you can tone the settings down until the game plays basically like NBA JAM if you want to. But at the default settings (and especially at the more hardcore SIM settings), the game isn't easy. In fact you'll probably end up losing the ball often. Clang bricks off the rim 6 times out of 10 shots. The CPU defense will be in your grill and steal the ball from you if you try to "dangle" around them without the necessary attribute skills. They'll throw hands in your face if you just try to shoot from anywhere.
I agree that in some instance, NHL 17's controls could be more responsive, but what's there is a good foundation. I'd settle for many of the game's PHYSICS shortcomings to be fixed before the controls though.
NHL 17 isn't anywhere NEAR as difficult as NBA 2K is and can be. Not in the controls. Not in the gameplay. And NHL 17 isn't even close to giving you an authentic NHL experience like NBA 2K can give you a near perfect NBA experience. From the gameplay to the presentation, EA's game can't even come up to Visual Concept's feet...
And you know what? NBA 2K fans love it that way, the hardcore ones; they don't want "easy". You want easy? Play NBA JAM. Play Double Dribble. Play NBA Ballers. You want basketball? Then NBA 2K's got ya back!
Cool, it sounds like 2K knows how to do things that are right and make sense. EA's NHL vs 2K's NBA is like apples-to-oranges though. To put this in better perspective, if 2K was to program their NBA game the way EA does their NHL game then you WOULD be able to dribble L-R-L-R-L-etc without ANY penalty whatsoever while the defense stands there stuck in whatever animation is programmed into the game. You would also be able to grab a loose ball facing the wrong direction and "snipe" the net just about every time very easily. There is no real penalty for skating speed or direction (though the EA Devs claim there is.)
We don't want EASY here either. We want hockey to be the main concentration in the game, not skating. If they program the skating part properly then it probably won't keep coming up in conversation every single week as it will become an afterthought or something that "just works" all or most of the time.
Well skating is probably 90% of hockey. If the skating is wrong, then it's not hockey. Here's an example, go back to NBA 2K5, where the gameplay was animation based instead of physics based like now. It was possible to do things that were very unrealistic. You could basically take the ball on your end and shake-n-bake your way to the net like clockwork every possession (or nearly) depending on your difficulty settings. That's something that was removed, more and more, as the game evolved. Nowadays, try those same tactics and you get burned. You'll lose the ball, you'll get it ripped off your hands from the defenders, or you'll simply come up against a wall on defense as the opposing players will use their body to contain you and box you out.
Sure you could "defend" back in the early NBA 2K titles, but it was never portrayed realistically. Players with the ball (and without) weren't held accountable for the way they moved on the court and it was pretty much anything goes, even if it wasn't physically possible. That's what past NHL games were like. Yes they controlled better, but players weren't held accountable for how they moved on the ice. And although, YES, you could defend against the dangle fairies, it was never attempted in a realistic fashion.
NHL 17 somewhat attempts to brings things down to earth a bit. It's not perfect. It's not even "very" realistic. But it's a start. NHL 17 makes you more accountable for how you skate with and without the puck. The main problem is that there's a disparity between the player with the puck, who enjoys an agility advantage, over the player without the puck.
That doesn't make sense... But the fact remains that we need to make the devs continue to IMPROVE tps, not scrap it altogether because some people are frustrated they can't just roll the gamepad on their face and come up with a 6 chain deke, snipe, celly...
I guess its just a difference of opinion. I stopped playing the 2K games for the same reason I have a problem playing NHL now, the clunky controls.
I think the last paragraph there is a bit much, most of the people in this thread are talking about controlling our skaters without the puck, which doesn't have anything to do with deking or sniping.
You said it yourself, the old games did control better. I feel like that needs to take priority over everything else since it is a video game.
We aren't asking for super arcade NHLx12xSnipezNDanglez. We just want responsive controls that we don't have to fight with. I think we all agree on that.
NBA 2k Mypark is dying for the same reasons NHL is dying: clunky movement and input lag. This is the first year I haven't bought 2k in a long time and I've been a regular Legend 3/5 for years in Mypark.
I haven't touched NHL for over 2 weeks now. I'm done with it. Enough is enough. It's an offline game for people who like to play against mindless zombie AI. Online it's an utter trainwreck.
In a way I'm glad. I've rediscovered my love for 8-ball.
NBA 2k Mypark is dying for the same reasons NHL is dying: clunky movement and input lag. This is the first year I haven't bought 2k in a long time and I've been a regular Legend 3/5 for years in Mypark.
I haven't touched NHL for over 2 weeks now. I'm done with it. Enough is enough. It's an offline game for people who like to play against mindless zombie AI. Online it's an utter trainwreck.
In a way I'm glad. I've rediscovered my love for 8-ball.
Replies
is it really that different?
Try to run sideways or backward.
Its not easy and you can fall. Yet, on defense in basketball and soccer, you are required to run backwards and pivot and run sideways to an extent (except the stance will change based on the need....IE: you dont move your right left over your left leg, you spread your legs and you do quick hops to the right or left) But during these hops maybe the guy started passing you and now you need to pivot and start actually running with him....this is all done mostly automatically with minimal effort. They COULD make it ultra complex to simulate the difficulties of running or risking to trip and fall but they dont....thats not why you play basketball although a guy who moves well in any sports will perform much better.
Volleyball may be a better example since I play it. Training volleyball you would be surprised just HOW MUCH TIME you spend training movement. Lateral movements in particular. its ULTRA important to be able to move laterally fast to be on balls and in control faster and more consistently and as much as you'd think it would be natural and easy to move on your feet, youd be shocked how much practice you need to get better at it...its hard as hell. just like skating efficiently is pretty darn hard. BUT volleyball games dont make super complex movement schemes to represent the difficulties of walking / running / moving laterally / jumping technique/ etc. They just automate most of it.
I absolutely love this summary, especially the bold part.
It should NOT take rocket science to skate when dekes have been dumbed down to where they are now. The dekes should require the talent (rocket science) to perform while the skating needs to be more "automatic" in what happens.
I'm sure a real hockey skater doesn't spend the whole shift thinking about his skating technique so much so that he does it at the expense of his hockey skill. He knows his limitations, but things should still be automatic for him where he can concentrate on the game instead.
Yeah, I mean at the end of the day this sums it up about as good as anything. When guys in the NHL are playing, they aren't consciously thinking "I need to do a T-Push here and angle my skates in this way to move three feet and then defend." - they just do, it is instinct to them. The way we have to think about how we're going to try to move to where we want go is ultimately what makes the game a chore to play.
If you think people shouldn't play with the AI, you're not just talking about not playing offline, you're talking about not playing any 1v1 mode at all. Which is a pretty grim indictment of this game, since the vast majority of this game's users play either offline or 1v1.
Yes, the AI is awful. But the answer should be for the devs to fix it, not for the game to lose 80% of its customer base.
If only EA would actually agree on this point... If you need a great example of how little NHL skaters think about what they're doing, all you need to do is watch how they skate in a straight line. Look at a guy like Jack Eichel, who's stride is pretty well regarded as one of the most efficient in the league. Surely any NHL player could replicate that stride in practice, so why don't players skate like that in a game if it would allow them to use less energy?
The answer is that these players aren't thinking about their strides during the game. By the time most players reach the NHL, they've had 10+ years of skating experience, and it's just not easy to break their habits. The only way to do so is to practice the proper technique so much that it becomes second nature and you don't need to think about it. For many players, they might just not feel like the effort is worth the payoff when they could be working on any number of other skills.
In the end though, skating is certainly not in the forefront of players' minds in real life, but it very much is for this game.
This is probably the best post in this entire thread and I echo it 100%.
You guys have really lost your way. When then focus of the game got away from hockey and became a skating simulator that doesn't even realistically simulate skating.. we are going down a dark road.
Let's do some indepth discussion on comparison of realism to this game. Let's face it, EA wants a more realistic game as do the majority, let's get some real video examples and comparisons of what EA can do to fix these things. Gets annoying everyone says the same thing over and over, I don't like the skating, bring back NHl12 etc. Come on, quiet your whining and add some substance.
@Workin_OT and @NHLDev, they broke done some important stuff and they both learned different things to change how they play or how EA is gonna change a few things. That's real discussion.
Why can't we do that on a more consitent basis instead of everyone whining about how bad this game is? How is it gonna get fixed so you like, if no substance is brought up?
is this a joke or another troll from you? the entire front page of the forum is filled with people ragging on the skating engine. everyone on LG is calling for change. check NHL's twitter account, same thing. everyone in drop ins screams at the game.
in reality it's more like 2 or 3 people on these forums that like it the way it is, some posting on multiple accounts. not sure what rise you guys get out of defending a skating engine that has killed the game and the online player base?
I really like what Kezz is saying.
If anything should be made easy in this game, it should be basic player movement. There should still be advanced moves that require more skill to pull off such as dekes, forward/backward transitions, 360s, etc. One of the biggest gripes currently is that at a very slow speed (almost stationary) it's hard to get your player to face in the direction you want. Nudging LS often results in an unwanted rotation instead of a strafe.
The skill in this game should be focused on the user's game awareness; ability to properly time one timers, dekes, hits, passes, deflections and poke checks; and managing strategies. Making skating too complicated takes away from all of the above.
One of the best posts in a while, this series has strayed so far from being an enjoyable game it's crazy to think we even got to this point, but this post sums it up pretty well.
For me the worst thing about the skating engine is all the animations that our player gets sucked into, for whatever reason as of late when i play Defence my Dman on a faceoff win like sprints forward in an unrealistic way and stuck in the animation before i can make a 1 touch pass or a pass or shot in general to get rid of it just leaves me wide open to be poke and its bloody annoying. Seems to only happen with neutral zone faceoff wins (only when my player is standing in the neutral zone)
All those stupid player cuts too are so unrealistic too play a game in HUT you can cut over and over again all the way down the ice and the opponent cant do anything about it if the player doing it knows **** hes doing with the animations properly.
Also before this TPS came out one could still play a game with lag but not since TPS came out you cant as its so unresponsive to move with the slightest bit of lag.
I should mention one positive about TPS though it handles AMAZING offline
Have you played NBA 2K16-17? You don't just twirl the joystick and turn on a dime. You have to use the LT to box out the player you're marking. You have to contend with physics while moving. Dribbling with the ball, you can't just spazz out and go left-right-left-right-left-right and come out still holding the ball. Especially not with the bigger, less agile players. Shooting the ball while running/having a player in your face affects your shot rating (among other things like hot zones, fatigue, clutch factor, etc).
Sure, you can tone the settings down until the game plays basically like NBA JAM if you want to. But at the default settings (and especially at the more hardcore SIM settings), the game isn't easy. In fact you'll probably end up losing the ball often. Clang bricks off the rim 6 times out of 10 shots. The CPU defense will be in your grill and steal the ball from you if you try to "dangle" around them without the necessary attribute skills. They'll throw hands in your face if you just try to shoot from anywhere.
I agree that in some instance, NHL 17's controls could be more responsive, but what's there is a good foundation. I'd settle for many of the game's PHYSICS shortcomings to be fixed before the controls though.
NHL 17 isn't anywhere NEAR as difficult as NBA 2K is and can be. Not in the controls. Not in the gameplay. And NHL 17 isn't even close to giving you an authentic NHL experience like NBA 2K can give you a near perfect NBA experience. From the gameplay to the presentation, EA's game can't even come up to Visual Concept's feet...
And you know what? NBA 2K fans love it that way, the hardcore ones; they don't want "easy". You want easy? Play NBA JAM. Play Double Dribble. Play NBA Ballers. You want basketball? Then NBA 2K's got ya back!
NHL needs more. Better controls, more controls. We need to be able to strafe, sidestep, backskate, turn around, shift weight, etc, all while keeping our upper body turned TOWARDS THE SHOOTER. And it has to be SEAMLESS (not like the puck pickups though... ). As a goalie we need to be able to slide, plant our skates to stop sliding and push off towards the other side, QUICKLY and PRECISELY. We need to be able to hug the post, go paddle down, come up and come off the post QUICKLY and PRECISELY. As defenders we NEED to be able to control our stick to block passing/shooting lines while we use our body to angle the puck holder towards the sides where they can't get to the good scoring areas. As attackers, we need to be able to use our bodies to shield the puck, not our STICKS (and put the puck behind our backs). There's so many control options that are missing in this game that would make this game "harder" by your standards, but it would make the game 10 times better.
Yes Im Trolling by trying to get a more indepth discussion about the thing exact things you want to fix about the game, instead of just saying let's scrap the skating engine.
If people are leaving the game in droves, why then do every night we see a consistent 13-15k play(Xbox) when it's been like this for the past 2 years ?
Cool, it sounds like 2K knows how to do things that are right and make sense. EA's NHL vs 2K's NBA is like apples-to-oranges though. To put this in better perspective, if 2K was to program their NBA game the way EA does their NHL game then you WOULD be able to dribble L-R-L-R-L-etc without ANY penalty whatsoever while the defense stands there stuck in whatever animation is programmed into the game. You would also be able to grab a loose ball facing the wrong direction and "snipe" the net just about every time very easily. There is no real penalty for skating speed or direction (though the EA Devs claim there is.)
We don't want EASY here either. We want hockey to be the main concentration in the game, not skating. If they program the skating part properly then it probably won't keep coming up in conversation every single week as it will become an afterthought or something that "just works" all or most of the time.
Well skating is probably 90% of hockey. If the skating is wrong, then it's not hockey. Here's an example, go back to NBA 2K5, where the gameplay was animation based instead of physics based like now. It was possible to do things that were very unrealistic. You could basically take the ball on your end and shake-n-bake your way to the net like clockwork every possession (or nearly) depending on your difficulty settings. That's something that was removed, more and more, as the game evolved. Nowadays, try those same tactics and you get burned. You'll lose the ball, you'll get it ripped off your hands from the defenders, or you'll simply come up against a wall on defense as the opposing players will use their body to contain you and box you out.
Sure you could "defend" back in the early NBA 2K titles, but it was never portrayed realistically. Players with the ball (and without) weren't held accountable for the way they moved on the court and it was pretty much anything goes, even if it wasn't physically possible. That's what past NHL games were like. Yes they controlled better, but players weren't held accountable for how they moved on the ice. And although, YES, you could defend against the dangle fairies, it was never attempted in a realistic fashion.
NHL 17 somewhat attempts to brings things down to earth a bit. It's not perfect. It's not even "very" realistic. But it's a start. NHL 17 makes you more accountable for how you skate with and without the puck. The main problem is that there's a disparity between the player with the puck, who enjoys an agility advantage, over the player without the puck.
That doesn't make sense... But the fact remains that we need to make the devs continue to IMPROVE tps, not scrap it altogether because some people are frustrated they can't just roll the gamepad on their face and come up with a 6 chain deke, snipe, celly...
I guess its just a difference of opinion. I stopped playing the 2K games for the same reason I have a problem playing NHL now, the clunky controls.
I think the last paragraph there is a bit much, most of the people in this thread are talking about controlling our skaters without the puck, which doesn't have anything to do with deking or sniping.
You said it yourself, the old games did control better. I feel like that needs to take priority over everything else since it is a video game.
We aren't asking for super arcade NHLx12xSnipezNDanglez. We just want responsive controls that we don't have to fight with. I think we all agree on that.
I haven't touched NHL for over 2 weeks now. I'm done with it. Enough is enough. It's an offline game for people who like to play against mindless zombie AI. Online it's an utter trainwreck.
In a way I'm glad. I've rediscovered my love for 8-ball.
- Charles Sheen
J/k.