NBA 2k Mypark is dying for the same reasons NHL is dying: clunky movement and input lag. This is the first year I haven't bought 2k in a long time and I've been a regular Legend 3/5 for years in Mypark.
I haven't touched NHL for over 2 weeks now. I'm done with it. Enough is enough. It's an offline game for people who like to play against mindless zombie AI. Online it's an utter trainwreck.
In a way I'm glad. I've rediscovered my love for 8-ball.
That doesn't make sense... But the fact remains that we need to make the devs continue to IMPROVE tps, not scrap it altogether because some people are frustrated they can't just roll the gamepad on their face and come up with a 6 chain deke, snipe, celly...
I'm not in favor of scrapping TPS, but this is a completely bogus charge against the people who are calling for getting rid of it. As far as I can tell, every single person who's written against TPS on these boards has been complaining about the fact that it makes DEFENSE too clunky, not because they miss 6-chain dekes.
If you think people shouldn't play with the AI, you're not just talking about not playing offline, you're talking about not playing any 1v1 mode at all. Which is a pretty grim indictment of this game, since the vast majority of this game's users play either offline or 1v1.
Yes, the AI is awful. But the answer should be for the devs to fix it, not for the game to lose 80% of its customer base.
The problem is, I don't think that there's any video game AI that exists that's "fair" and dynamic. I can't really name a single game that I feel like the AI is tuned just right. They all have tendencies and eventually they get figured out and abused. When you play a shooter, you have to tell the CPU to miss for the player to have a chance. The AI could head shot you all day if it was told to do so. With most sports games, it's all just too fluid for an AI to be properly tuned.
People can chose to do what they like to do, I'm not advocating for the removal of 1v1 since others enjoy it. I do however believe that the game is meant to be played 6v6 all human players. Anything other than that I do not enjoy in this game.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I absolutely love this summary, especially the bold part.
It should NOT take rocket science to skate when dekes have been dumbed down to where they are now. The dekes should require the talent (rocket science) to perform while the skating needs to be more "automatic" in what happens.
I'm sure a real hockey skater doesn't spend the whole shift thinking about his skating technique so much so that he does it at the expense of his hockey skill. He knows his limitations, but things should still be automatic for him where he can concentrate on the game instead.
Yeah, I mean at the end of the day this sums it up about as good as anything. When guys in the NHL are playing, they aren't consciously thinking "I need to do a T-Push here and angle my skates in this way to move three feet and then defend." - they just do, it is instinct to them. The way we have to think about how we're going to try to move to where we want go is ultimately what makes the game a chore to play.
True - they aren't consciously thinking about T-Pushes and skate angles. However, they took years to make those movements instinctive.
If you practice with TPS enough, learn the intricacies, become more versed in how the animations play out, you will get to a point where you're not thinking about skating in NHL either.
When it comes to the negativity surrounding TPS - I'd suggest going to LeagueGaming and watching some of the LGHL game replays.
How is it that those players seem to handle TPS without many issues yet some people here say it's "broken" and a complete mess?
seeing as the top pro series club players are quitting the game because of TPS, i wouldn't suggest that to people trying to learn how to play.
NBA 2k Mypark is dying for the same reasons NHL is dying: clunky movement and input lag. This is the first year I haven't bought 2k in a long time and I've been a regular Legend 3/5 for years in Mypark.
I haven't touched NHL for over 2 weeks now. I'm done with it. Enough is enough. It's an offline game for people who like to play against mindless zombie AI. Online it's an utter trainwreck.
In a way I'm glad. I've rediscovered my love for 8-ball.
NBA 2K17 is much less clunky than NBA 2K16. 16 was my first year with the franchise so I went in cold. This year the controls are much more responsive.
After reading the last 2 pages, all I can think of is....are you sure you are going the right direction with all of this?
I mean, the TPS and the challenges you describe with moving hips vs skates, VC, more input buttons...omg...
Why does it have to be SO complex to....move.
The game is not about skating. The game is about hockey. As far as I know, NBA doesnt give you 20 ways to move around....you just move with the control stick and then most of the focus comes around the different dribbles, the different shots, what you do with the ball? Same for football and soccer.
I mean, at which point does the skating takes too much focus away from the game?
Instead of focusing so hard on super technical ultra realistic skating.....Why not put a fairly automated and realistic skating in game where your left stick does most of the work alongside the use of one button for VC which helps you position properly....meanwhile the rest of the focus is more on the puck play, stick play....everything that is hockey?
I mean, people play ball hockey, water hockey, skateboard hockey, roller hockey.....the means of transportation is irrelevant, whats consistent is the HOCKEY game.
I think you guys have started a journey to improve skating and forgot at some point where to stop the journey.
Dont get me wrong...skating has an importance....If I was able to move anywhere without any sort of physics, the feel of the game would suck. The but feel of the game DIDNT suck in nhl 10 without these....so you still have a lot of room to play with. Im all for some limitations but right now, we went from having limitations to not being able to do the things we want when we want like we would if we actually were playing real hockey. Whether its the control scheme being too complex or whether its the TPS working as intended...its irrelevant...it distracts from the actual game of hockey.
I absolutely love this summary, especially the bold part.
It should NOT take rocket science to skate when dekes have been dumbed down to where they are now. The dekes should require the talent (rocket science) to perform while the skating needs to be more "automatic" in what happens.
I'm sure a real hockey skater doesn't spend the whole shift thinking about his skating technique so much so that he does it at the expense of his hockey skill. He knows his limitations, but things should still be automatic for him where he can concentrate on the game instead.
Yeah, I mean at the end of the day this sums it up about as good as anything. When guys in the NHL are playing, they aren't consciously thinking "I need to do a T-Push here and angle my skates in this way to move three feet and then defend." - they just do, it is instinct to them. The way we have to think about how we're going to try to move to where we want go is ultimately what makes the game a chore to play.
True - they aren't consciously thinking about T-Pushes and skate angles. However, they took years to make those movements instinctive.
If you practice with TPS enough, learn the intricacies, become more versed in how the animations play out, you will get to a point where you're not thinking about skating in NHL either.
When it comes to the negativity surrounding TPS - I'd suggest going to LeagueGaming and watching some of the LGHL game replays.
How is it that those players seem to handle TPS without many issues yet some people here say it's "broken" and a complete mess?
And yet you can do a toe drag to between the legs to windmill deke, or twirl and curl through the offensive zone with almost no practice at all. But standing in the slot on defense and turning from the left wing boards towards the blueline requires hours of practice.
Here's an example of an issue I get a lot. Out of control spins on puck pickups.
This is offline even, no lag.
Crosby gets the puck after I poked it lose behind the net, I wasn't expecting him to get it. He's already turning up a little when he gets the puck. I wanted him to spin to his left, and then skate towards the corner and then go up the boards with the puck. Because he was already spinning to his right though, my instruction to spin left causes an issue. I get that. You could say user error, I'll just call it a miscommunication between human and machine. This part of the gif isn't important to my point.
Here's the part I want to highlight.
You can see my controller inputs, and it's the reason for this terrible angle, so the inputs matchup with mostly what the action on the screen is, and not reversed. I move the LS down, down right, right then up right. while I'm doing that, halfway through he hitches up for a second, spins back, then continues spinning the original way again, just in time for the computer player to get in my way and dislodge the puck. Why did he have that hitch there? I certainly didn't tell him to go back against his momentum at that point.
The problem is, I don't think that there's any video game AI that exists that's "fair" and dynamic. I can't really name a single game that I feel like the AI is tuned just right. They all have tendencies and eventually they get figured out and abused. When you play a shooter, you have to tell the CPU to miss for the player to have a chance. The AI could head shot you all day if it was told to do so. With most sports games, it's all just too fluid for an AI to be properly tuned.
People can chose to do what they like to do, I'm not advocating for the removal of 1v1 since others enjoy it. I do however believe that the game is meant to be played 6v6 all human players. Anything other than that I do not enjoy in this game.
Sorry but this is nothing but two paragraphs of poor excuses for lazy programming. I can't name another game where the AI is this bad. Most notably, a video game series that has AI tuned this poorly. The AI just goes braindead and will leave you completely helpless. Just today I had the AI start line changing and gave the guy I played a free breakaway. If you can't get the line change logic right then leave it as manual.
Another instance is the AI going offsides constantly. I had one AI go offsides 20 feet from the puck and stay offsides for so long I literally had to stop and wait for it to figure out how to go back onside again. Programming AI can't be easy, I get that. But it can't be this bad when I've played games where the AI is nowhere near this brainless.
This is a franchise that is over 20 years old, you're telling me we can't get decent AI by now? C'mon.
And I'm not asking for the AI to be superhuman, I'm just asking for the AI to not be super stupid.
Just be in position and don't line change when the puck is right next to you. Stop going offsides nowhere near the play. Stop going into slashing animations out of nowhere, leave the penalty taking up to me. How about skating towards the puck carrier rather than flying off in the opposite direction?
How about letting us switch players efficiently? When is that simple request going to happen? I mean this is simple stuff we're asking for.
You can see my controller inputs, and it's the reason for this terrible angle, so the inputs matchup with mostly what the action on the screen is, and not reversed. I move the LS down, down right, right then up right. while I'm doing that, halfway through he hitches up for a second, spins back, then continues spinning the original way again, just in time for the computer player to get in my way and dislodge the puck. Why did he have that hitch there? I certainly didn't tell him to go back against his momentum at that point.
this happens anytime you try to turn too fast on your LS. i pointed this out to the devs and could only recreate it when i used real fast twitch movements. they said they would look into it.
this happens anytime you try to turn too fast on your LS. i pointed this out to the devs and could only recreate it when i used real fast twitch movements. they said they would look into it.
Oh, they are looking into it. Terrific. Wake me up when they fix it.
Here's an example of an issue I get a lot. Out of control spins on puck pickups.
This is offline even, no lag.
Here's the part I want to highlight.
You can see my controller inputs, and it's the reason for this terrible angle, so the inputs matchup with mostly what the action on the screen is, and not reversed. I move the LS down, down right, right then up right. while I'm doing that, halfway through he hitches up for a second, spins back, then continues spinning the original way again, just in time for the computer player to get in my way and dislodge the puck. Why did he have that hitch there? I certainly didn't tell him to go back against his momentum at that point.
Yep. The damn hitch, where you swing in the opposite direction from where you're telling the player to go. Happens all the time when you're trying to turn from a stop. It's been a problem for the last two years, and I have yet to hear a good explanation of why it happens.
These clips are self-evident demonstrations of a skating engine that doesn't work, since they show players moving in a direction that the controller has never told them to move. But we're supposed to just shrug our shoulders and say, "It's not that bad."
You can see my controller inputs, and it's the reason for this terrible angle, so the inputs matchup with mostly what the action on the screen is, and not reversed. I move the LS down, down right, right then up right. while I'm doing that, halfway through he hitches up for a second, spins back, then continues spinning the original way again, just in time for the computer player to get in my way and dislodge the puck. Why did he have that hitch there? I certainly didn't tell him to go back against his momentum at that point.
I think the "hitch" happens because the game is trying to engage into an "incidental" contact animation due to the other player's proximity to you.
This is one of the parts of the game that absolutely gets my blood boiling. It also happens with the goalies, where the game takes over your motions because it has "decided" the best option for you. I want to move LEFT. Let me move LEFT!! I don't care if the game thinks I should move RIGHT...
These clips are self-evident demonstrations of a skating engine that doesn't work, since they show players moving in a direction that the controller has never told them to move. But we're supposed to just shrug our shoulders and say, "It's not that bad."
This one is very interesting, I think because the controller input was @ 6 when the puck was received the player went into the animation of turning to face that direction, instead of going behind the net.
These clips are self-evident demonstrations of a skating engine that doesn't work, since they show players moving in a direction that the controller has never told them to move. But we're supposed to just shrug our shoulders and say, "It's not that bad."
This one is very interesting, I think because the controller input was @ 6 when the puck was received the player went into the animation of turning to face that direction, instead of going behind the net.
Just a thought.
6 is where the controller starts. That's the slight move toward the goal line. The hitch doesn't happen until well after the controller has rolled through, and it sends Redden in exactly the opposite direction of where I'm sending him.
I know, I was talking mostly about the gif. In that instance it "could" have been that. Clearly in the two vids you posted it's not what I described.
Still, it falls into the category where this game tries too much to decide what to do for the user. When Ben chimes in on these issues, he talks about how it seems like we want more assistance in certain situations, when it's actually that we DON'T want assistance at all. I don't want the game to take over and "assist" me by "guessing" what I want to do. I want to move left. Make me move left. I'm facing south, I get the puck behind my net near the right post. I press RIGHT on the joystick. The game decides to spin me CLOCKWISE towards the left, bringing the puck into the side of the net and collide with the post/goalie. There shouldn't be any instance where the game can decide for the users. Especially when the game gets it WRONG more often than not.
People blame these issues on TPS, but what about the Goalies? We don't have to deal with TPS, and yet we get the same B_S happening: we hug the RIGHT Post, we're in VH or RVH, puck goes towards the left so we hit LEFT on the analog stick. Game starts by pushing us RIGHT, then stop, then gather for a bit, and THEN makes us push LEFT. By the time we begin our slide to the other post the play has long since shifted or the other team has scored while you left the entire LEFT side of the net open while you wait for the game to DECIDE it's going to let you move in the direction you want to go in. Some save animations come out ridiculously fast. Some come out painfully slow. Sometimes you want to slide and stop in the middle of the net, but you get a slide that takes you completely out of position. Sometimes you want to go post to post, but the game stops you midway through your slide, then the puck goes behind and THEN you get another push (too late).
The game DECIDES too many things for us. That's the main problem. TPS or not, there shouldn't be so many instances where we can't control what we're doing because we have to wait out and let the game play out an animation that we NEVER wanted in the first place.
Replies
LOL, not THAT 8-ball!
I'm not in favor of scrapping TPS, but this is a completely bogus charge against the people who are calling for getting rid of it. As far as I can tell, every single person who's written against TPS on these boards has been complaining about the fact that it makes DEFENSE too clunky, not because they miss 6-chain dekes.
The problem is, I don't think that there's any video game AI that exists that's "fair" and dynamic. I can't really name a single game that I feel like the AI is tuned just right. They all have tendencies and eventually they get figured out and abused. When you play a shooter, you have to tell the CPU to miss for the player to have a chance. The AI could head shot you all day if it was told to do so. With most sports games, it's all just too fluid for an AI to be properly tuned.
People can chose to do what they like to do, I'm not advocating for the removal of 1v1 since others enjoy it. I do however believe that the game is meant to be played 6v6 all human players. Anything other than that I do not enjoy in this game.
seeing as the top pro series club players are quitting the game because of TPS, i wouldn't suggest that to people trying to learn how to play.
NBA 2K17 is much less clunky than NBA 2K16. 16 was my first year with the franchise so I went in cold. This year the controls are much more responsive.
Club : Midnight Express
And yet you can do a toe drag to between the legs to windmill deke, or twirl and curl through the offensive zone with almost no practice at all. But standing in the slot on defense and turning from the left wing boards towards the blueline requires hours of practice.
Here's an example of an issue I get a lot. Out of control spins on puck pickups.
This is offline even, no lag.
Crosby gets the puck after I poked it lose behind the net, I wasn't expecting him to get it. He's already turning up a little when he gets the puck. I wanted him to spin to his left, and then skate towards the corner and then go up the boards with the puck. Because he was already spinning to his right though, my instruction to spin left causes an issue. I get that. You could say user error, I'll just call it a miscommunication between human and machine. This part of the gif isn't important to my point.
Here's the part I want to highlight.
You can see my controller inputs, and it's the reason for this terrible angle, so the inputs matchup with mostly what the action on the screen is, and not reversed. I move the LS down, down right, right then up right. while I'm doing that, halfway through he hitches up for a second, spins back, then continues spinning the original way again, just in time for the computer player to get in my way and dislodge the puck. Why did he have that hitch there? I certainly didn't tell him to go back against his momentum at that point.
Sorry but this is nothing but two paragraphs of poor excuses for lazy programming. I can't name another game where the AI is this bad. Most notably, a video game series that has AI tuned this poorly. The AI just goes braindead and will leave you completely helpless. Just today I had the AI start line changing and gave the guy I played a free breakaway. If you can't get the line change logic right then leave it as manual.
Another instance is the AI going offsides constantly. I had one AI go offsides 20 feet from the puck and stay offsides for so long I literally had to stop and wait for it to figure out how to go back onside again. Programming AI can't be easy, I get that. But it can't be this bad when I've played games where the AI is nowhere near this brainless.
This is a franchise that is over 20 years old, you're telling me we can't get decent AI by now? C'mon.
Just be in position and don't line change when the puck is right next to you. Stop going offsides nowhere near the play. Stop going into slashing animations out of nowhere, leave the penalty taking up to me. How about skating towards the puck carrier rather than flying off in the opposite direction?
How about letting us switch players efficiently? When is that simple request going to happen? I mean this is simple stuff we're asking for.
yes, the two-wheeled shopping cart spinsies.
this happens anytime you try to turn too fast on your LS. i pointed this out to the devs and could only recreate it when i used real fast twitch movements. they said they would look into it.
Oh, they are looking into it. Terrific. Wake me up when they fix it.
Yep. The damn hitch, where you swing in the opposite direction from where you're telling the player to go. Happens all the time when you're trying to turn from a stop. It's been a problem for the last two years, and I have yet to hear a good explanation of why it happens.
Two more examples:
These clips are self-evident demonstrations of a skating engine that doesn't work, since they show players moving in a direction that the controller has never told them to move. But we're supposed to just shrug our shoulders and say, "It's not that bad."
I think the "hitch" happens because the game is trying to engage into an "incidental" contact animation due to the other player's proximity to you.
This is one of the parts of the game that absolutely gets my blood boiling. It also happens with the goalies, where the game takes over your motions because it has "decided" the best option for you. I want to move LEFT. Let me move LEFT!! I don't care if the game thinks I should move RIGHT...
This one is very interesting, I think because the controller input was @ 6 when the puck was received the player went into the animation of turning to face that direction, instead of going behind the net.
Just a thought.
6 is where the controller starts. That's the slight move toward the goal line. The hitch doesn't happen until well after the controller has rolled through, and it sends Redden in exactly the opposite direction of where I'm sending him.
It's not this. In both of the clips I posted there's no opposing player anywhere near the puck carrier, and they still both have weird hitches:
I know, I was talking mostly about the gif. In that instance it "could" have been that. Clearly in the two vids you posted it's not what I described.
Still, it falls into the category where this game tries too much to decide what to do for the user. When Ben chimes in on these issues, he talks about how it seems like we want more assistance in certain situations, when it's actually that we DON'T want assistance at all. I don't want the game to take over and "assist" me by "guessing" what I want to do. I want to move left. Make me move left. I'm facing south, I get the puck behind my net near the right post. I press RIGHT on the joystick. The game decides to spin me CLOCKWISE towards the left, bringing the puck into the side of the net and collide with the post/goalie. There shouldn't be any instance where the game can decide for the users. Especially when the game gets it WRONG more often than not.
People blame these issues on TPS, but what about the Goalies? We don't have to deal with TPS, and yet we get the same B_S happening: we hug the RIGHT Post, we're in VH or RVH, puck goes towards the left so we hit LEFT on the analog stick. Game starts by pushing us RIGHT, then stop, then gather for a bit, and THEN makes us push LEFT. By the time we begin our slide to the other post the play has long since shifted or the other team has scored while you left the entire LEFT side of the net open while you wait for the game to DECIDE it's going to let you move in the direction you want to go in. Some save animations come out ridiculously fast. Some come out painfully slow. Sometimes you want to slide and stop in the middle of the net, but you get a slide that takes you completely out of position. Sometimes you want to go post to post, but the game stops you midway through your slide, then the puck goes behind and THEN you get another push (too late).
The game DECIDES too many things for us. That's the main problem. TPS or not, there shouldn't be so many instances where we can't control what we're doing because we have to wait out and let the game play out an animation that we NEVER wanted in the first place.