EA Forums - Banner

EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

Replies

  • sethamphetamines
    330 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    NHLDev wrote: »
    i get what you're saying, but the problem isn't that i am skating too fast there, this happens at slow speeds, while gliding and from a standstill as BMH pointed out. even if i am skating fast, i should be able to whip around and curl fast because if we're going for "sim", real life players are able to make these quick maneuvers every time they're on the ice at any speed, unless they are john scott. honestly even scott moves a **** of a lot faster in real life than my offline NHL skater.

    this is why dmen have so many problems keeping the puck in near the blue line. you can make a split decision, but the game will cause funky things to happen and next thing you know you're stick is in the middle of the ice waiting to get poked. this is why forwards get spun around against their will in corners.

    the issue is the overall lack of feel and control with almost every aspect of this game now, from skating to stickhandling to goalie. everything was simply more responsive and more realistic before next gen and TPS. there's really nothing left to say.

    Not sure we are on the same page. You said you get what I am saying but I am not saying anything about higher speeds vs slower speeds making a difference.

    Use another subject entirely as an example. If you are driving a car through an S curve. You can't just turn left and then turn right ahead of time. You need to finish the left turn before you start the right turn. If you look at your player the same like you are moving an actual player on skates rather than moving a dot around on the ice that happens to be playing skating animations, your inputs will be more deliberate and in line with what he is doing rather than getting ahead of him.

    The best example of what is going wrong and how we don't queue the inputs is to roll the left stick in a circle really fast, getting ahead of your player. The player will get to a point where they are just trying to turn left and right from the same spot, never really making any ground. If you slow down your rotation to match that players individual speed based on their attributes, you will be able to get them to skate around in a tight circle.

    On the online default settings, the skating speeds match the real world very close but if anything have acceleration speeds that are actually faster than a real world player.

    All that said, if you liked the feel of earlier versions of the game and that felt more realistic to you, then nobody is here to argue that since it is personal opinion and personal feel. I am just talking about what is actually physically possible in the real world and I don't know a player that can turn around as fast as I can roll my thumb on a joystick.

    Two things that should be noted. In the previous response, you mentioned matching your players movement in real time, but that isn't going to happen with online lag. Even if you "never experience lag" there is still some delay.

    The other thing is that in my clip earlier I didn't roll for a full rotation or go left right left really quick. I rolled to the direction I wanted to spin, and then held it in the direction I wanted to skate towards.

    IjW1so3.gif


    Even if what I said above is wrong, for as much emphasis as I feel you are putting on the user to be aware of his skaters momentum or weight transfer, it seems like the game has absolutely no awareness of it if it thinks spinning one direction then going back the other way would be the fastest route to get to the direction of my final position on the LS.

  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    I don't think we are aiming to turn faster than we can move our sticks. We just want to attempt to turn that direction in that time. Nobody wants 90 degree pivots on a dime. We just don't want to be standing still, then attempt to go right and watch our guy stutter for a full second and then finally move right.

    Yes, I understand that is what some people are saying but other than the reception case that makes you finish the pass reception back to default facing, the game is responding quite quickly -- he just takes longer to plant a skate and cross the other one over than some people are rolling their thumb around and in the one video, it did look like backskate and deking out with the right stick that were causing the pivots to cancel -- which again was very responsive but not what the User intended, even though it is what they input.

    Also, in an attempt to be responsive, it is possible to roll around so fast and end up on the other side of the controller that the game says 'hey, I can get you there quicker' and takes a straight line there rather than doing the whole turn. If you roll with the player and make sure he turns and starts to cross over before you roll around, you will have more success getting exactly what you want.

    That is why I was saying we could queue inputs and realize more often where you rolled through to gauge intention but then it would be harder for a User to change their mind and request something else. It may also in some cases read two different input directions as a request to roll rather than two different accel attempts in different directions. Since players can technically get what they want by being more deliberate on the controller, it is better to not have to queue things as there isn't as easy of a way to then change your mind, stop and skate the other way as there is without the queue.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    SaveUs2K wrote: »
    Because
    TPS is not a "git gud" issue. The AI even tards out and goes into weird spins and wonky pivots. When the AI can't even skate, something is wrong.

    These aren't scrubs telling you the skating is broken. It's top VS, HUT, and LG players telling you it's broken.

    Keep putting your head in the sand though, it's working out great! :D

    Exactly lol....

    Nahhh, don't listen to people that have played on top LG Pro Series teams, top VS ranked players, and top HUT players. We all don't know what we're talking about ;)

    We listen to top players all the time. Remember that you can all agree and say that skating needs to be worked on and it sounds like you are on the exact same page based on that high level but if one of you says it needs to be faster and the other person says it needs to be slower, you are no longer agreeing -- and it obviously isn't even that simple.

    In a lot of cases people want to know that the development team is listening. If we just write 'Thanks for the feedback' or 'Thanks, that is on our radar', it turns into a joke that we are brushing it off. If we write about the subject and talk about why something is currently happening, it is taken that we are making excuses and don't think there are any flaws in the system or that it could be improved. If we write 'yes, that definitely needs to be better', it gets greeted with a 'well, then why hasn't it been done yet' or 'I expect this to be solved in the next patch then'.

    The easy part is encountering an issue and making a video. I do that all the time as one of the parts of my job. The hard part is being the engineer that needs to find a solution or trying to help an engineer get to a solution that won't compromise something else that is working well.

    I talk about this stuff all day at work, I think about it when I am driving to and from work, I think about it when I am reading what each of you have to say about what is working and what isn't. I like trying to solve the problem of making a realistic hockey game that is also fun to play. Talking about it and discussing why something works the way it does or why something may not be going right is all part of the process. Although it is speculated that it someone means we are satisfied with where we are at, that isn't the case. We have reasons for why we have made the decisions we have along the way, so I can speak to those but it doesn't mean we aren't open to change or looking at ways to continue to improve.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    Two things that should be noted. In the previous response, you mentioned matching your players movement in real time, but that isn't going to happen with online lag. Even if you "never experience lag" there is still some delay.

    The other thing is that in my clip earlier I didn't roll for a full rotation or go left right left really quick. I rolled to the direction I wanted to spin, and then held it in the direction I wanted to skate towards.

    IjW1so3.gif


    Even if what I said above is wrong, for as much emphasis as I feel you are putting on the user to be aware of his skaters momentum or weight transfer, it seems like the game has absolutely no awareness of it if it thinks spinning one direction then going back the other way would be the fastest route to get to the direction of my final position on the LS.
    I would have to look closer at this example in debug with animation names/changes, etc.. It is possible that getting ahead in the input and passing that 180 line has the player think they can use a pivot to get that quicker and in that animation, the players facing and stick/puck position is further back the animation it is blending from and doesn't blend that well.

    So instead of doing a continuous cross over, he starts that and then tries to go straight to that new final point by doing a step out pivot. Hope that makes sense. I wonder if you had rolled slower into/through 5 o' clock as he did one more cross over before getting up towards 2 o' clock if that would have made a difference.

    We would need to trim the start of that step out animation so that he doesn't pull the puck back and possibly leads with the puck instead -- we have done that in other cases and had success. It is also possible that the trajectories in those two clips don't line up and that is the difference in the facing. I think in your case, that is where that is similar to the issue we have in pass receptions where he goes back to a default facing angle. Different, but similar.

    I will look further into this one to see if we can replicate it and see what is happening in the animations themselves. Thanks.

  • I read all this arguing over receptions, spins and pivots, and then I think about the clip I did a while back:



    If that's how even the CPU receives passes.... it's fricken hopeless.
  • Lmao nobody in the NHL moves like how the skater does in the first video.. dude was facing the right and immediately exploded going left, right through the defenders stick and there lies the problem.. EA went for realism while people like you are stuck in this fantasy world.. he turned like he was running on a basketball court lmao so unrealistic.. good job with gameplay EA don't listen to these baffoons..
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    i get what you're saying, but the problem isn't that i am skating too fast there, this happens at slow speeds, while gliding and from a standstill as BMH pointed out. even if i am skating fast, i should be able to whip around and curl fast because if we're going for "sim", real life players are able to make these quick maneuvers every time they're on the ice at any speed, unless they are john scott. honestly even scott moves a **** of a lot faster in real life than my offline NHL skater.

    this is why dmen have so many problems keeping the puck in near the blue line. you can make a split decision, but the game will cause funky things to happen and next thing you know you're stick is in the middle of the ice waiting to get poked. this is why forwards get spun around against their will in corners.

    the issue is the overall lack of feel and control with almost every aspect of this game now, from skating to stickhandling to goalie. everything was simply more responsive and more realistic before next gen and TPS. there's really nothing left to say.

    Not sure we are on the same page. You said you get what I am saying but I am not saying anything about higher speeds vs slower speeds making a difference.

    Use another subject entirely as an example. If you are driving a car through an S curve. You can't just turn left and then turn right ahead of time. You need to finish the left turn before you start the right turn. If you look at your player the same like you are moving an actual player on skates rather than moving a dot around on the ice that happens to be playing skating animations, your inputs will be more deliberate and in line with what he is doing rather than getting ahead of him.

    The best example of what is going wrong and how we don't queue the inputs is to roll the left stick in a circle really fast, getting ahead of your player. The player will get to a point where they are just trying to turn left and right from the same spot, never really making any ground. If you slow down your rotation to match that players individual speed based on their attributes, you will be able to get them to skate around in a tight circle.

    On the online default settings, the skating speeds match the real world very close but if anything have acceleration speeds that are actually faster than a real world player.

    All that said, if you liked the feel of earlier versions of the game and that felt more realistic to you, then nobody is here to argue that since it is personal opinion and personal feel. I am just talking about what is actually physically possible in the real world and I don't know a player that can turn around as fast as I can roll my thumb on a joystick.

    I didn't even read this before I posted but yea that's pretty much what I meant.. these dudes are lost lala land.. they want arcade hockey not realistic hockey and then have the nerve to say NHL 17 isn't realistic.. like I just said you don't see any NHL players move like the first video.. that was a person in running shoes on a basketball court dressed up in hockey gear..
  • Yesh, and what's realistic about the way the CPU player receives the puck in my vid? He turns around to face directly opposite away from the puck, even before crossing over the blueline, then skates backwards for over a metre (in scale), and the picks up the puck perfectly, pivots and is on his way past my guy. That's how you do it in real NHL?

    It looks like even the CPU doesn't know how to face the puck, because if it had, it would have been perfectly natural to pick the puck and just skate forwards - without any of these spins. And what is more, it doesn't seem to matter which way the CPU player is turned, because they can always pick up the puck no matter what, and always before the puck passes the blueline too.
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Yesh, and what's realistic about the way the CPU player receives the puck in my vid? He turns around to face directly opposite away from the puck, even before crossing over the blueline, then skates backwards for over a metre (in scale), and the picks up the puck perfectly, pivots and is on his way past my guy. That's how you do it in real NHL?

    It looks like even the CPU doesn't know how to face the puck, because if it had, it would have been perfectly natural to pick the puck and just skate forwards - without any of these spins. And what is more, it doesn't seem to matter which way the CPU player is turned, because they can always pick up the puck no matter what, and always before the puck passes the blueline too.

    I will respectfully call **** on the bold part. I have seen so many times during a cycle back to the point where the D will just pull it back over the line in the process of receiving the puck, and then other times making a hockey move after having possession.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    I actually should get setup with a quicker capture setup so that I can post animated gifs in these threads as well. Will look into that.

    Get a ps4. Xb1 is garbage when it comes to recording. With ps4, you can record from 1 minute to 1 hr of gameplay. And then you can quickly save with a touch of the share button. Then you can edit that save file in a matter of 2-5 minutes (depending what you want out of that clip, then you can import that clip into the Sony sharefactory and create a gif. Then simply post that clip to twitter or Facebook which then you could link/share here.

    You can do all of this in a matter of 10-15 minutes, whereas getting a bettter capture card and going through the process of saving, downloading, editing, exporting, then making a gif, can take a way longer time.
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Yesh, and what's realistic about the way the CPU player receives the puck in my vid? He turns around to face directly opposite away from the puck, even before crossing over the blueline, then skates backwards for over a metre (in scale), and the picks up the puck perfectly, pivots and is on his way past my guy. That's how you do it in real NHL?

    It looks like even the CPU doesn't know how to face the puck, because if it had, it would have been perfectly natural to pick the puck and just skate forwards - without any of these spins. And what is more, it doesn't seem to matter which way the CPU player is turned, because they can always pick up the puck no matter what, and always before the puck passes the blueline too.

    I will respectfully call **** on the bold part. I have seen so many times during a cycle back to the point where the D will just pull it back over the line in the process of receiving the puck, and then other times making a hockey move after having possession.

    Yes, but I was talking about CPU opponent. They always seem to be able to keep the puck in the zone, inteceptng passes or clears even in mid-air if you try to slap the puck out.

    But to be sure, there are occasions when even the CPU puts the puck outside due to the animations. But clearing the puck out is very hard against the CPU, unless you use the high lob.
  • "So, yes, it would be great if we could keep up with your thumbs in all cases but a person can't physically do something on skates at the speed you can do it with your thumbs so for that to behave accurately at all, it is going to be out of sync."

    That is yours and EA's flawed thinking on this matter, this isn't real hockey, this is a game and in this game your thumbs are your skates!!!!
  • "That is why I was saying we could queue inputs"

    NO, stop making the game more complicated with more animations/actions we can't control.

    Look, this has nothing to do with what a "real" person can do on skates, the point is the old skating engine worked! Because it was responsive, this is a quick twitch game and requires your player to do what you tell it.
  • IceLion68
    1624 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    "So, yes, it would be great if we could keep up with your thumbs in all cases but a person can't physically do something on skates at the speed you can do it with your thumbs so for that to behave accurately at all, it is going to be out of sync."

    That is yours and EA's flawed thinking on this matter, this isn't real hockey, this is a game and in this game your thumbs are your skates!!!!

    This statement is nonsensensical, unless you are saying that your player's skates should be able to move as fast as your thumbs, which is a "problematic" proposition to say the least.
    Dad. Gamer. Rocker. Geek.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Yes, I understand that is what some people are saying but other than the reception case that makes you finish the pass reception back to default facing, the game is responding quite quickly -- he just takes longer to plant a skate and cross the other one over than some people are rolling their thumb around and in the one video, it did look like backskate and deking out with the right stick that were causing the pivots to cancel -- which again was very responsive but not what the User intended, even though it is what they input.

    Look, I didn't hit backskate in that Blake video, and I'm playing with auto-backskate off. The key moment in that Blake video is the first hitch. He's supposed to spin smoothly to his right. Instead, he hitches back, spinning slightly forward instead of continuing the spin back and to his right. That hitch is what creates all the problems. And that hitch is exactly the same as the hitch that Redden makes and that Sittler makes in the clips I've posted before, and post here again. It's exactly the same as the hitch that Crosby makes in Seth's video, where the controller is telling Crosby to spin right, and instead he spins slightly back to his left before continuing to try to spin to his right. Maybe we're all hitting VC at the exact moment that the hitch happens, and then stopping, but it seems incredibly unlikely.

    It also seems incredibly unlikely because if you watch AI players, they have the exact same problem when they try to make turns at slow speeds. They're constantly hitching when they make turns and not doing them smoothly. (One example below.) And I assume the AI isn't hitting VC unintentionally, or moving its thumbs too quickly. If the AI has trouble using TPS correctly, too, maybe the problem is TPS, and not the users.


    Redden:


    Sittler:


    Crosby:
    IjW1so3.gif

    AI:

  • "It's almost as if there's a small number of frames where Crosby moves the puck to his forehand. In that moment, the goalie drops to one knee-hug post quickly. Also, the Bruins' player wants to interact with the puck - almost as if a pickup is about to start. That sequence seems to send Crosby awry."

    Its all TPS related issues, the skating engine forces humans and AI skaters to loop in a big circle in order to spin around, because this is a quick twitch type game you will of course rotate your thumb stick to spin away but if you do it too quick your skater will stop mid turn and return back to neutral, time and time again.

    TPS is terrible.
This discussion has been closed.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.