Honestly, **** realistic skating at this point. I don't even care anymore, because based on the information here, I'm basically subject to a different level of control sensitivity for every single game I play (and even variable within a game). I have to adjust to the connection compensation I have, which often does not correlate with the values in the network monitor, and then use that to predict how fast my player is going to turn so that I don't try to turn too fast. Just **** everything about that. It's stupid to prioritize realistic skating over having basic responsive controls.
Do your best to make animations fit what the player is trying to do, but I shouldn't be expected to watch every single turn I make to be sure that I don't go too fast for the game to keep up. These complaints are not going to go away until you abandon this notion that users should only be able to move in the ways that you've created animations for. It's just never going to happen.
Why is skating the most difficult part of the game to figure out? Not windmill dekes, not poke checks, not shooting, not hitting, not passing, and not puck chops, but skating is the most difficult thing to do in this game at a high level. Basic things like turns and facing the play have become harder to do than drag the puck between your legs, do a 360 spin, then a toe drag and shoot top corner.
Not every player in vs/HUT is an ovey, and no, not all players open up like that on the rush in the NHL either. THe reason ? You dont need to open up for one-timers when your on your off wing. This isnt a rush but it still is a one-T on his off wing
Neither of those are on the rush, which is where the problem I'm talking about is most noticeable. And it's not a question of players lacking offensive awareness -- the forwards on my team all have offensive ratings as good as or better than Ovi. Anyway, if they can get the shot off on the rush without opening up, I'd be fine with it -- my concern is the frequency with which they whiff without even coming close to the puck.
I know you play 1v1 modes, but you should really start playing eashl. You'll see more control in your player than 1v1 because ai makes decisions for the player you are about to change to or get the puck with and that has an effect of player movement/responsiveness.
"It's almost as if there's a small number of frames where Crosby moves the puck to his forehand. In that moment, the goalie drops to one knee-hug post quickly. Also, the Bruins' player wants to interact with the puck - almost as if a pickup is about to start. That sequence seems to send Crosby awry."
Its all TPS related issues, the skating engine forces humans and AI skaters to loop in a big circle in order to spin around, because this is a quick twitch type game you will of course rotate your thumb stick to spin away but if you do it too quick your skater will stop mid turn and return back to neutral, time and time again.
TPS is terrible.
No, this game WAS a twitch type game. Pre-tps was twitch type. Now it's physics based so you need to rotate and move your stick in relation where your body is and wants to go. You are confused.
Gliding and quick adjustments to your player as he's moving is more relevant and effective than playing twitch with this skating engine. Maybe that's why most people don't understand how to properly skate. They are still in the pre-tps mindset of moving their stick quick & fast and expecting to go exactly where you want to go and when, when in fact physics can contractdict the movement you want if you're not rotating and adjusting your movements.
Everything in this game is clunky. You could make the same exact thread but replace TPS with passing, player switching, etc. and it would come down to the same premise, that the game does not recognize controller inputs efficiently at all.
It's not just one aspect. The lack of input recognition is a game-wide problem.
Honestly, **** realistic skating at this point. I don't even care anymore, because based on the information here, I'm basically subject to a different level of control sensitivity for every single game I play (and even variable within a game). I have to adjust to the connection compensation I have, which often does not correlate with the values in the network monitor, and then use that to predict how fast my player is going to turn so that I don't try to turn too fast. Just **** everything about that. It's stupid to prioritize realistic skating over having basic responsive controls.
Do your best to make animations fit what the player is trying to do, but I shouldn't be expected to watch every single turn I make to be sure that I don't go too fast for the game to keep up. These complaints are not going to go away until you abandon this notion that users should only be able to move in the ways that you've created animations for. It's just never going to happen.
Why is skating the most difficult part of the game to figure out? Not windmill dekes, not poke checks, not shooting, not hitting, not passing, and not puck chops, but skating is the most difficult thing to do in this game at a high level. Basic things like turns and facing the play have become harder to do than drag the puck between your legs, do a 360 spin, then a toe drag and shoot top corner.
I want to highlight this exact portion for the NHL DEVS to think about. Let me ask you one thing. If you step on the ice what is easier for you to do? Is it easier to skate, turn, backskate, etc, or is it easier to do windmill dekes, toe-drags, behind the back, one-handed, and jump dekes?? I'm talking not only as somebody new to the game, but also learning new things over time.
Funny thing is that when you put in this game as a noob you don't need ANY training really to perform any of the dekes that are in the game. ANYBODY can do them because you have made it that way. Now skating (which is the FUNDAMENTAL part of hockey) is supposed to be the easy second-nature part of the game here. Skating is supposed to just work, because what hockey player can't skate, right? EVERY hockey player can skate, but it takes a specially talented one to pull of the ridiculous number of dekes that ANYBODY can perform in this game.
This is a HOCKEY simulator, not Pro Skater 17. The last few years my controller has proven stiffer competition than most of my opponents; and lag (another discussion) adds a whole new level of W-T-F to this.
Don't get me wrong here. I DO want as close to real life as we can get here, but you have your game-play priorities all f-ed up here.
Everything in this game is clunky. You could make the same exact thread but replace TPS with passing, player switching, etc. and it would come down to the same premise, that the game does not recognize controller inputs efficiently at all.
It's not just one aspect. The lack of input recognition is a game-wide problem.
They don't lol...Do you read the chatbox? There's literally nothing positive said about this game in the LG chatbox. Everyone relevant hates the game, and yes, they're all very good at it.
There's a lot of people in the chatbox raging after a loss.. absolutely.
LOL only after losses huh? you must not spend much time there. #MAKEGIRGSSAGAMECHANGER
They don't lol...Do you read the chatbox? There's literally nothing positive said about this game in the LG chatbox. Everyone relevant hates the game, and yes, they're all very good at it.
There's a lot of people in the chatbox raging after a loss.. absolutely.
LOL only after losses huh? you must not spend much time there. #MAKEGIRGSSAGAMECHANGER
This, he can keep feigning ignorance all he wants. Can't say I've found an LG player who is happy with the current games.
People who are good at this game, people who mostly win at this game, complain and hate the game... That is honesty right there about the state of the game, you are good and you win but still do not like the game.
They don't lol...Do you read the chatbox? There's literally nothing positive said about this game in the LG chatbox. Everyone relevant hates the game, and yes, they're all very good at it.
There's a lot of people in the chatbox raging after a loss.. absolutely.
LOL only after losses huh? you must not spend much time there. #MAKEGIRGSSAGAMECHANGER
This, he can keep feigning ignorance all he wants. Can't say I've found an LG player who is happy with the current games.
Well since they aren't happy with the game perhaps some of the casuals need more input for a greater chance at selling more copies and thus expanding the base and more EASHL players / teams.
Look, I didn't hit backskate in that Blake video, and I'm playing with auto-backskate off. The key moment in that Blake video is the first hitch. He's supposed to spin smoothly to his right. Instead, he hitches back, spinning slightly forward instead of continuing the spin back and to his right. That hitch is what creates all the problems. And that hitch is exactly the same as the hitch that Redden makes and that Sittler makes in the clips I've posted before, and post here again. It's exactly the same as the hitch that Crosby makes in Seth's video, where the controller is telling Crosby to spin right, and instead he spins slightly back to his left before continuing to try to spin to his right. Maybe we're all hitting VC at the exact moment that the hitch happens, and then stopping, but it seems incredibly unlikely.
It also seems incredibly unlikely because if you watch AI players, they have the exact same problem when they try to make turns at slow speeds. They're constantly hitching when they make turns and not doing them smoothly. (One example below.) And I assume the AI isn't hitting VC unintentionally, or moving its thumbs too quickly. If the AI has trouble using TPS correctly, too, maybe the problem is TPS, and not the users.
The Redden example is the same as the Crosby one.
The Sittler one is the pickup and reface issue.
The AI issues are mostly a problem when they are changing their mind far too often (which is actually in a way very similar to a User on the control being erratic.) They also do have logic for when they should be in vision control or not and there are issues that arise there as well. General rules make things simpler but often end up with edge cases where the angles used in the logic work in some scenarios but not others. Mix that with how they react to a loose puck, needing to guard multiple players, etc and it causes issues in how they move. A less physically accurate system would be more forgiving for the AI as it would be for human players.
They don't lol...Do you read the chatbox? There's literally nothing positive said about this game in the LG chatbox. Everyone relevant hates the game, and yes, they're all very good at it.
There's a lot of people in the chatbox raging after a loss.. absolutely.
LOL only after losses huh? you must not spend much time there. #MAKEGIRGSSAGAMECHANGER
This, he can keep feigning ignorance all he wants. Can't say I've found an LG player who is happy with the current games.
That's fair. I'm an LG player who's.. "okay".. with the current game. But I'm just an EA fanboy.
The AI issues are mostly a problem when they are changing their mind far too often (which is actually in a way very similar to a User on the control being erratic.) They also do have logic for when they should be in vision control or not and there are issues that arise there as well. A less physically accurate system would be more forgiving for the AI as it would be for human players.
I think this points to one of the challenges that TPS introduced into the game, which is that it places more demands on you guys to get the AI right. Pre-TPS, if the AI acted cluelessly, or made bad decisions, they could usually recover quickly, or the user could make up for their mistakes. But since everyone -- AI players as well as user-controlled ones -- is more accountable with their skating now, the consequences of boneheaded AI are more severe. That wouldn't be a problem if the AI were better, but especially on defense, the AI's logic is often dismal this year -- they overpursue, regularly leave their positions in the defensive zone, can't recognize where the puck is (particularly when it's in the neutral zone), make strange turns, etc. The result is that a lot of goals this year are the result of the poor AI, rather than any skill on the part of the offensive player.
The AI issues are mostly a problem when they are changing their mind far too often (which is actually in a way very similar to a User on the control being erratic.) They also do have logic for when they should be in vision control or not and there are issues that arise there as well. A less physically accurate system would be more forgiving for the AI as it would be for human players.
I think this points to one of the challenges that TPS introduced into the game, which is that it places more demands on you guys to get the AI right. Pre-TPS, if the AI acted cluelessly, or made bad decisions, they could usually recover quickly, or the user could make up for their mistakes. But since everyone -- AI players as well as user-controlled ones -- is more accountable with their skating now, the consequences of boneheaded AI are more severe. That wouldn't be a problem if the AI were better, but especially on defense, the AI's logic is often dismal this year -- they overpursue, regularly leave their positions in the defensive zone, can't recognize where the puck is (particularly when it's in the neutral zone), make strange turns, etc. The result is that a lot of goals this year are the result of the poor AI, rather than any skill on the part of the offensive player.
So... The solution is the make the AI better? I like it!
"So, yes, it would be great if we could keep up with your thumbs in all cases but a person can't physically do something on skates at the speed you can do it with your thumbs so for that to behave accurately at all, it is going to be out of sync."
That is yours and EA's flawed thinking on this matter, this isn't real hockey, this is a game and in this game your thumbs are your skates!!!!
That's where the disconnect is.. people like me who like the skating want the realistic system that is implemented but I guess you and the other forum dwellers don't like realistic movements in a video game.. go play 3 on 3 arcade NHL the skating is very responsive lmao
People who are good at this game, people who mostly win at this game, complain and hate the game... That is honesty right there about the state of the game, you are good and you win but still do not like the game.
The AI issues are mostly a problem when they are changing their mind far too often (which is actually in a way very similar to a User on the control being erratic.) They also do have logic for when they should be in vision control or not and there are issues that arise there as well. A less physically accurate system would be more forgiving for the AI as it would be for human players.
I think this points to one of the challenges that TPS introduced into the game, which is that it places more demands on you guys to get the AI right. Pre-TPS, if the AI acted cluelessly, or made bad decisions, they could usually recover quickly, or the user could make up for their mistakes. But since everyone -- AI players as well as user-controlled ones -- is more accountable with their skating now, the consequences of boneheaded AI are more severe. That wouldn't be a problem if the AI were better, but especially on defense, the AI's logic is often dismal this year -- they overpursue, regularly leave their positions in the defensive zone, can't recognize where the puck is (particularly when it's in the neutral zone), make strange turns, etc. The result is that a lot of goals this year are the result of the poor AI, rather than any skill on the part of the offensive player.
It's to the point that I almost would rather play with a mediocre to bad human D partner than an AI one.
The AI issues are mostly a problem when they are changing their mind far too often (which is actually in a way very similar to a User on the control being erratic.) They also do have logic for when they should be in vision control or not and there are issues that arise there as well. A less physically accurate system would be more forgiving for the AI as it would be for human players.
I think this points to one of the challenges that TPS introduced into the game, which is that it places more demands on you guys to get the AI right. Pre-TPS, if the AI acted cluelessly, or made bad decisions, they could usually recover quickly, or the user could make up for their mistakes. But since everyone -- AI players as well as user-controlled ones -- is more accountable with their skating now, the consequences of boneheaded AI are more severe. That wouldn't be a problem if the AI were better, but especially on defense, the AI's logic is often dismal this year -- they overpursue, regularly leave their positions in the defensive zone, can't recognize where the puck is (particularly when it's in the neutral zone), make strange turns, etc. The result is that a lot of goals this year are the result of the poor AI, rather than any skill on the part of the offensive player.
It's to the point that I almost would rather play with a mediocre to bad human D partner than an AI one.
In NHL 12, the AI defense was really bad. Everyone here and online would complain about having an AI D partner.
I took the time to learn how they play so I could compliment them, instead of expecting them to compliment me (even though that is the way it should be). I actually preferred the crappy AI D because he was consistent. I knew if he had the puck behind the goal line, not to go looking for a pass around the boards, and not to head up ice, but instead stay in the slot because he was always going to pass it there, and if I wasn't there to get it, the other team would be.
This is way worse. There is no complimenting the play style of AI anymore. Sometimes they pin it for no reason and wait for someone to take the puck from them. Sometimes they pass it to no one in the slot. Sometimes they skate up the ice looking for an opponent to skate into so they can turn it over.
The only thing consistent about the AI is that they will always abandon their man on the far side of the goal giving up an easy cross crease play.
The AI issues are mostly a problem when they are changing their mind far too often (which is actually in a way very similar to a User on the control being erratic.) They also do have logic for when they should be in vision control or not and there are issues that arise there as well. A less physically accurate system would be more forgiving for the AI as it would be for human players.
I think this points to one of the challenges that TPS introduced into the game, which is that it places more demands on you guys to get the AI right. Pre-TPS, if the AI acted cluelessly, or made bad decisions, they could usually recover quickly, or the user could make up for their mistakes. But since everyone -- AI players as well as user-controlled ones -- is more accountable with their skating now, the consequences of boneheaded AI are more severe. That wouldn't be a problem if the AI were better, but especially on defense, the AI's logic is often dismal this year -- they overpursue, regularly leave their positions in the defensive zone, can't recognize where the puck is (particularly when it's in the neutral zone), make strange turns, etc. The result is that a lot of goals this year are the result of the poor AI, rather than any skill on the part of the offensive player.
It's to the point that I almost would rather play with a mediocre to bad human D partner than an AI one.
In NHL 12, the AI defense was really bad. Everyone here and online would complain about having an AI D partner.
I took the time to learn how they play so I could compliment them, instead of expecting them to compliment me (even though that is the way it should be). I actually preferred the **** AI D because he was consistent. I knew if he had the puck behind the goal line, not to go looking for a pass around the boards, and not to head up ice, but instead stay in the slot because he was always going to pass it there, and if I wasn't there to get it, the other team would be.
This is way worse. There is no complimenting the play style of AI anymore. Sometimes they pin it for no reason and wait for someone to take the puck from them. Sometimes they pass it to no one in the slot. Sometimes they skate up the ice looking for an opponent to skate into so they can turn it over.
The only thing consistent about the AI is that they will always abandon their man on the far side of the goal giving up an easy cross crease play.
Don't forget the AI racing to the blue line if the puck exits the zone, regardless of whether or not the other team already has gained possession and is charging back into the zone, or standing 4 feet off the boards at the point instead of being ready to grab the pass along the boards, or skating directly at you on the breakout instead of to the clearly open lane they have.
It's downright comical how bad they are sometimes.
"So, yes, it would be great if we could keep up with your thumbs in all cases but a person can't physically do something on skates at the speed you can do it with your thumbs so for that to behave accurately at all, it is going to be out of sync."
That is yours and EA's flawed thinking on this matter, this isn't real hockey, this is a game and in this game your thumbs are your skates!!!!
That's where the disconnect is.. people like me who like the skating want the realistic system that is implemented but I guess you and the other forum dwellers don't like realistic movements in a video game.. go play 3 on 3 arcade NHL the skating is very responsive lmao
There's nothing wrong with wanting responsiveness and still keep the realistic aspects of the skating engine intact (for the most part). The part where I start to disagree, is when people simply suggest "bring back NHL 09 or 12 skating back"... Going back is not a solution, it's a capitulation. TPS may not be perfect, it may not be the engine to give us the fluid and responsive movements we want. But it's the right direction for this series. If the dev team needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with a TPS 2.0, so be it. But under no circumstances should we want things to go back to the unrealistic skating of past games. Not even NHL 14's "TPS" system is adequate, IMO.
The randomness in the game? Well randomness is also a part of NHL Hockey. Unfortunately, the EA Devs haven't figured out how to do 100% randomness. In a videogame to have 100% randomness means you're going to have problems keeping things under control and they won't be able to adjust things as well if they do go wrong. I do agree though that things need to be a lot more constant. Objects can't be going through each other one second, and cause incidental contact the next.
If the Dev's mantra is "The user has to be more accountable", then I put forth that the Dev team should ALSO be more accountable for how the game plays. The user can't be at fault for doing things he's been doing for years, only to find out that it's not how you're supposed to be doing it in THIS game. The game needs to convey to the user what he's supposed to do clearly. You can't give conflicting messages and expect the user will NOT get frustrated when things don't always work as expected. That's on the DEVELOPERS head, not the user's fault for "not doing things correctly".
Replies
Do your best to make animations fit what the player is trying to do, but I shouldn't be expected to watch every single turn I make to be sure that I don't go too fast for the game to keep up. These complaints are not going to go away until you abandon this notion that users should only be able to move in the ways that you've created animations for. It's just never going to happen.
Why is skating the most difficult part of the game to figure out? Not windmill dekes, not poke checks, not shooting, not hitting, not passing, and not puck chops, but skating is the most difficult thing to do in this game at a high level. Basic things like turns and facing the play have become harder to do than drag the puck between your legs, do a 360 spin, then a toe drag and shoot top corner.
I know you play 1v1 modes, but you should really start playing eashl. You'll see more control in your player than 1v1 because ai makes decisions for the player you are about to change to or get the puck with and that has an effect of player movement/responsiveness.
That's what I get when I see you post videos.
No, this game WAS a twitch type game. Pre-tps was twitch type. Now it's physics based so you need to rotate and move your stick in relation where your body is and wants to go. You are confused.
Gliding and quick adjustments to your player as he's moving is more relevant and effective than playing twitch with this skating engine. Maybe that's why most people don't understand how to properly skate. They are still in the pre-tps mindset of moving their stick quick & fast and expecting to go exactly where you want to go and when, when in fact physics can contractdict the movement you want if you're not rotating and adjusting your movements.
It's not just one aspect. The lack of input recognition is a game-wide problem.
I want to highlight this exact portion for the NHL DEVS to think about. Let me ask you one thing. If you step on the ice what is easier for you to do? Is it easier to skate, turn, backskate, etc, or is it easier to do windmill dekes, toe-drags, behind the back, one-handed, and jump dekes?? I'm talking not only as somebody new to the game, but also learning new things over time.
Funny thing is that when you put in this game as a noob you don't need ANY training really to perform any of the dekes that are in the game. ANYBODY can do them because you have made it that way. Now skating (which is the FUNDAMENTAL part of hockey) is supposed to be the easy second-nature part of the game here. Skating is supposed to just work, because what hockey player can't skate, right? EVERY hockey player can skate, but it takes a specially talented one to pull of the ridiculous number of dekes that ANYBODY can perform in this game.
This is a HOCKEY simulator, not Pro Skater 17. The last few years my controller has proven stiffer competition than most of my opponents; and lag (another discussion) adds a whole new level of W-T-F to this.
Don't get me wrong here. I DO want as close to real life as we can get here, but you have your game-play priorities all f-ed up here.
bingo.
LOL only after losses huh? you must not spend much time there. #MAKEGIRGSSAGAMECHANGER
This, he can keep feigning ignorance all he wants. Can't say I've found an LG player who is happy with the current games.
Well since they aren't happy with the game perhaps some of the casuals need more input for a greater chance at selling more copies and thus expanding the base and more EASHL players / teams.
The Redden example is the same as the Crosby one.
The Sittler one is the pickup and reface issue.
The AI issues are mostly a problem when they are changing their mind far too often (which is actually in a way very similar to a User on the control being erratic.) They also do have logic for when they should be in vision control or not and there are issues that arise there as well. General rules make things simpler but often end up with edge cases where the angles used in the logic work in some scenarios but not others. Mix that with how they react to a loose puck, needing to guard multiple players, etc and it causes issues in how they move. A less physically accurate system would be more forgiving for the AI as it would be for human players.
We have the issues logged.
must.....
invalidate....
opinion.....
BATMAN!
I think this points to one of the challenges that TPS introduced into the game, which is that it places more demands on you guys to get the AI right. Pre-TPS, if the AI acted cluelessly, or made bad decisions, they could usually recover quickly, or the user could make up for their mistakes. But since everyone -- AI players as well as user-controlled ones -- is more accountable with their skating now, the consequences of boneheaded AI are more severe. That wouldn't be a problem if the AI were better, but especially on defense, the AI's logic is often dismal this year -- they overpursue, regularly leave their positions in the defensive zone, can't recognize where the puck is (particularly when it's in the neutral zone), make strange turns, etc. The result is that a lot of goals this year are the result of the poor AI, rather than any skill on the part of the offensive player.
So... The solution is the make the AI better? I like it!
That's where the disconnect is.. people like me who like the skating want the realistic system that is implemented but I guess you and the other forum dwellers don't like realistic movements in a video game.. go play 3 on 3 arcade NHL the skating is very responsive lmao
Who have you been talking to lmao stop lying
In NHL 12, the AI defense was really bad. Everyone here and online would complain about having an AI D partner.
I took the time to learn how they play so I could compliment them, instead of expecting them to compliment me (even though that is the way it should be). I actually preferred the crappy AI D because he was consistent. I knew if he had the puck behind the goal line, not to go looking for a pass around the boards, and not to head up ice, but instead stay in the slot because he was always going to pass it there, and if I wasn't there to get it, the other team would be.
This is way worse. There is no complimenting the play style of AI anymore. Sometimes they pin it for no reason and wait for someone to take the puck from them. Sometimes they pass it to no one in the slot. Sometimes they skate up the ice looking for an opponent to skate into so they can turn it over.
The only thing consistent about the AI is that they will always abandon their man on the far side of the goal giving up an easy cross crease play.
Don't forget the AI racing to the blue line if the puck exits the zone, regardless of whether or not the other team already has gained possession and is charging back into the zone, or standing 4 feet off the boards at the point instead of being ready to grab the pass along the boards, or skating directly at you on the breakout instead of to the clearly open lane they have.
It's downright comical how bad they are sometimes.
There's nothing wrong with wanting responsiveness and still keep the realistic aspects of the skating engine intact (for the most part). The part where I start to disagree, is when people simply suggest "bring back NHL 09 or 12 skating back"... Going back is not a solution, it's a capitulation. TPS may not be perfect, it may not be the engine to give us the fluid and responsive movements we want. But it's the right direction for this series. If the dev team needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with a TPS 2.0, so be it. But under no circumstances should we want things to go back to the unrealistic skating of past games. Not even NHL 14's "TPS" system is adequate, IMO.
The randomness in the game? Well randomness is also a part of NHL Hockey. Unfortunately, the EA Devs haven't figured out how to do 100% randomness. In a videogame to have 100% randomness means you're going to have problems keeping things under control and they won't be able to adjust things as well if they do go wrong. I do agree though that things need to be a lot more constant. Objects can't be going through each other one second, and cause incidental contact the next.
If the Dev's mantra is "The user has to be more accountable", then I put forth that the Dev team should ALSO be more accountable for how the game plays. The user can't be at fault for doing things he's been doing for years, only to find out that it's not how you're supposed to be doing it in THIS game. The game needs to convey to the user what he's supposed to do clearly. You can't give conflicting messages and expect the user will NOT get frustrated when things don't always work as expected. That's on the DEVELOPERS head, not the user's fault for "not doing things correctly".