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EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

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  • BoboFloggins
    2170 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    Ok. Here is a video of just the first period I played in a completely random drop in this morning.

    Where does the TPS cause/force me/my player (RD) to have his back completely not facing the play/puck when I don't need and want him to?



    The penalty I took within the first couple minutes was complete **** too! I was just trying to keep the play in the offensive zone and his player skated into me and then it appears I threw an automatic shoulder/elbow into him. HA!

    It is the result of penalty being applied to your player for having the game music muted.
  • In regards to Shero's fundamental rules; I would say TPS doesn't pervent us from doing any of those things. I would simply say a lot of players just don't know how to use it properly or refuse to.

    I'd love to see a video of any 5v5 game where not a single player turns their back to the play. Surely if it were that easy, all of the best teams would be doing it. It doesn't even need to be both teams doing it, just your own team not turning your back to the play.

    I'll wait.

    Ok. Here is a video of just the first period I played in a completely random drop in this morning.

    Where does the TPS cause/force me/my player (RD) to have his back completely not facing the play/puck when I don't need and want him to?



    The penalty I took within the first couple minutes was complete **** too! I was just trying to keep the play in the offensive zone and his player skated into me and then it appears I threw an automatic shoulder/elbow into him. HA!

    Sounds like someone either uses LS hitting or can't stop themselves from jamming up on the RS because they think they're getting a pass for a one-timer.

    Here's a few quick thoughts on what I just saw:

    1:14 - Not even sure what to call that move there. You basically do a button hook instead of just being able to turn your hips 90 degrees and stop with your right foot.

    1:41 - Basically the same thing as the last one, but slightly less wonky. Instead of turning while stopping to give your teammate a pass to your forehand, you come to a complete stop, then turn.

    1:56 - Skating slowly to your position, then facing the puck appropriately, instead of doing a t-push to keep you square for the entire animation

    1:59 - Skating backwards along the blue line instead of facing the play and doing crossovers or t-pushes, minimizing the area you have a chance to intercept a pass out of the zone for

    3:12 - Giant circle, not facing the puck, moving quickly, or covering anyone in particular

    5:08 - More of that sweet backskating along the blue line instead of a t-push or crossover, followed by a sweet pivot where you completely stop with your back to the puck, and would have given up a breakaway if they sent it down the ice

    5:45 - Covering that front row real well. Gotta make sure Mike Milbury isn't beating someone's **** with their own shoe in the crowd, ya know?

    5:50 - Thinking you were expecting him to go left here, but you ended up in a really bad position. Won't hold it against you though

    5:53 - Giant circle, not facing the puck, not really rushing to get to an open passing lane either

    6:37 - Gliding with your back to the play, resulting in coverage that could have been better on the player after he beats LD, giving them the pass to the point, then taking a large circle while facing your net and skating towards the point to block the shot. Both D actually gather so much momentum from trying to point up ice that you're both at the top of the circles with two forwards in behind you.

    6:49 - More stopping then pivoting instead of stopping while pivoting, which could have face you to the shot or pass much better

    8:25 - More circles instead of facing the play while getting back into position so you could potentially intercept a pass to that open man instead of chasing him around

    That's a dozen times in a single period where you knew ahead of time that you were going to post it here, so I can only assume you paid more attention to detail than usual. While I'm sure you'll come up with some clever way of saying you did exactly what you wanted to for some of these, you can't really argue that at least some of these highlight very real problems in the game.

    The first example I'd like you to explain is the one where you face the boards though at 5:45. Was it a hot girl, or maybe the cotton candy guy?
  • eric57664
    240 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    That might be the case and thanks for the explanation but I could care less about the AI and how they react with TPS because I don't play with the AI.

    I only play EASHL so I only care about TPS in relation to my human player.

    I think the majority in this discussion are more concerned with the player they are controlling and not when the AI controls themselves.

    The issues the AI has are a symptom of the issues with the skating engine. The AI isn't pressing inputs on a controller to move their players. It gets to just move them how it likes. If even the AI can't do it properly, it speaks to issues in the skating engine that affect humans and AI.

    The fact that even the AI has trouble doing basic skating moves at low speeds, and constantly finds itself pivoting the wrong way, or making clunky turns, etc., speaks to the problems with TPS more generally. If this were a smooth, intuitive skating engine, you wouldn't see the AI constantly find itself with its back turned to the play.

    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.

    You may not have noticed, but many people have been saying that TPS was much better last gen, and since the new gen games have dropped, TPS has gotten noticeably worse. The issues the AI has, that are similar to the issues that many humans have shows problems with the skating engine itself, not just how the AI uses it.

    But I wasn't quoting anybody else, only bmh. He said ai facing the wrong way was because of tps, which isn't the case because last generation didn't have this issue. So where am I wrong and what are you trying to say that I didn't already? You totally confused me.

    Its not that complicated, you shouldn't be that confused.

    TPS **** far less last gen than it does this gen. There were issues, sure, but not like now.

    This gen, TPS causes wonky and clunky skating for humans. The AI has similar issues now that weren't nearly as bad last gen, when TPS was better. For the same skating issues to strike both humans and AI when switching to next gen points more to the version of TPS in the next gen engine than the AI programming.

    More simply - Skating was better last gen, AI and humans had less skating issues. Skating worse this gen, AI and humans have more similar issues. Common denominator is skating engine.

    You guys (Seth and bmh) make no sense at all. Tps wasn't an issue for ai pivoting the wrong way. That's all I'm saying. Not what human players do. Tps isn't the problem for ai issues in current gen. it's bad programming. If it was tps, it would have had the exact same issue of ai not facing the right way most of the time like in current gen.

    So I do agree with you, talking to you is pointless because proof and fact are things that you don't like to hear.
  • SharlonD wrote: »
    2cr9dfs.jpg

    (This isn't a direct reply in relation to Venom's post, I'm just talking to the whole thread in general). I agree that they needed to do a better job of telling people HOW to use it if we're apparently all "just doing it wrong". However, that time has passed, and it doesn't really matter anyway - it's been 5 years now; we all know how the TPS works, this is nothing new. This is not year 1 with us just a couple months into a new engine, this is year 5, we're not lost, and we know how to use it - we've been playing on it for 5 years. Pretending we're all just newborn fawns lost in the wilderness of this great, vast engine of "realism" that EA has provided us that we just can't comprehend, all because we're star struck that they're listening and finally answering us directly and we don't wanna seem ungrateful or mean, is doing nothing but making them think "Oh, maybe they really don't know how to use it afterall! THAT'S the problem! That's all it was, whew! Ok, cool, we're on the right track!". No, we're not on the right track. It's horrible, it's terrible, it's clunky, it's wonky, it's ****ty, it has been for 5 years, and just about everyone who's played it online has hated it for all 5 years. Yes, forums will always have hate threads, but it's worse around here now than it ever has been, and it's for a reason - people have finally had enough. The ship is sinking. It's time to get rid of this engine and replace it with something new. Again, we appreciate the effort and the idea behind it and what it was supposed to be, but it just didn't pan out. They can continue on full speed ahead if they like, but it'll be right into an iceberg. The AI behavior/decisions need a lot of reworking as discussed as well.


    Speak for yourself man I love the skating in 17.. easily the best it's ever been.. I'll agree with whichever devs said you don't know how to use it because I never have problems with it so clearly it works.. it's just a matter of being competent enough

    I concur. I love the game. Best so far without a doubt.

  • In regards to Shero's fundamental rules; I would say TPS doesn't pervent us from doing any of those things. I would simply say a lot of players just don't know how to use it properly or refuse to.

    I'd love to see a video of any 5v5 game where not a single player turns their back to the play. Surely if it were that easy, all of the best teams would be doing it. It doesn't even need to be both teams doing it, just your own team not turning your back to the play.

    I'll wait.

    Ok. Here is a video of just the first period I played in a completely random drop in this morning.

    Where does the TPS cause/force me/my player (RD) to have his back completely not facing the play/puck when I don't need and want him to?



    The penalty I took within the first couple minutes was complete **** too! I was just trying to keep the play in the offensive zone and his player skated into me and then it appears I threw an automatic shoulder/elbow into him. HA!

    Sounds like someone either uses LS hitting or can't stop themselves from jamming up on the RS because they think they're getting a pass for a one-timer.

    Here's a few quick thoughts on what I just saw:

    1:14 - Not even sure what to call that move there. You basically do a button hook instead of just being able to turn your hips 90 degrees and stop with your right foot.

    1:41 - Basically the same thing as the last one, but slightly less wonky. Instead of turning while stopping to give your teammate a pass to your forehand, you come to a complete stop, then turn.

    1:56 - Skating slowly to your position, then facing the puck appropriately, instead of doing a t-push to keep you square for the entire animation

    1:59 - Skating backwards along the blue line instead of facing the play and doing crossovers or t-pushes, minimizing the area you have a chance to intercept a pass out of the zone for

    3:12 - Giant circle, not facing the puck, moving quickly, or covering anyone in particular

    5:08 - More of that sweet backskating along the blue line instead of a t-push or crossover, followed by a sweet pivot where you completely stop with your back to the puck, and would have given up a breakaway if they sent it down the ice

    5:45 - Covering that front row real well. Gotta make sure Mike Milbury isn't beating someone's **** with their own shoe in the crowd, ya know?

    5:50 - Thinking you were expecting him to go left here, but you ended up in a really bad position. Won't hold it against you though

    5:53 - Giant circle, not facing the puck, not really rushing to get to an open passing lane either

    6:37 - Gliding with your back to the play, resulting in coverage that could have been better on the player after he beats LD, giving them the pass to the point, then taking a large circle while facing your net and skating towards the point to block the shot. Both D actually gather so much momentum from trying to point up ice that you're both at the top of the circles with two forwards in behind you.

    6:49 - More stopping then pivoting instead of stopping while pivoting, which could have face you to the shot or pass much better

    8:25 - More circles instead of facing the play while getting back into position so you could potentially intercept a pass to that open man instead of chasing him around

    That's a dozen times in a single period where you knew ahead of time that you were going to post it here, so I can only assume you paid more attention to detail than usual. While I'm sure you'll come up with some clever way of saying you did exactly what you wanted to for some of these, you can't really argue that at least some of these highlight very real problems in the game.

    The first example I'd like you to explain is the one where you face the boards though at 5:45. Was it a hot girl, or maybe the cotton candy guy?


    All you're complaining about here is his decisions, not how tps prevents him from doing something. Just because he decided to circle around, he could have easily rotated his body and faced the play. Those mistakes you're pointing out aren't because of tps, but of a different decision to do something than what yours would be. NHL defensemen don't always face the puck either. The weak side forwards and D sometimes don't face the puck beucssebthey are focussed on something else like another player.

    At 5:45, he could have easily held VC and his player would have been locked on the puck. This is user error, not an issue with tps being broken. He could also have easily strafed across the blueline and skated/glided perpendicular to the blueline towards the boards slowly and skated around a touch, hold VC and face the play.
    Another issue where tps doesn't prevent you from doing what you want with it.

    Everyone knows it isn't perfect. Even the devs have said that, but in no way is it too difficult to get what you want out of it for the most part. And the most part is like 95% of the time.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    In regards to Shero's fundamental rules; I would say TPS doesn't pervent us from doing any of those things. I would simply say a lot of players just don't know how to use it properly or refuse to.

    I'd love to see a video of any 5v5 game where not a single player turns their back to the play. Surely if it were that easy, all of the best teams would be doing it. It doesn't even need to be both teams doing it, just your own team not turning your back to the play.

    I'll wait.

    Ok. Here is a video of just the first period I played in a completely random drop in this morning.

    Where does the TPS cause/force me/my player (RD) to have his back completely not facing the play/puck when I don't need and want him to?



    The penalty I took within the first couple minutes was complete **** too! I was just trying to keep the play in the offensive zone and his player skated into me and then it appears I threw an automatic shoulder/elbow into him. HA!

    Sounds like someone either uses LS hitting or can't stop themselves from jamming up on the RS because they think they're getting a pass for a one-timer.

    Here's a few quick thoughts on what I just saw:

    1:14 - Not even sure what to call that move there. You basically do a button hook instead of just being able to turn your hips 90 degrees and stop with your right foot.

    1:41 - Basically the same thing as the last one, but slightly less wonky. Instead of turning while stopping to give your teammate a pass to your forehand, you come to a complete stop, then turn.

    1:56 - Skating slowly to your position, then facing the puck appropriately, instead of doing a t-push to keep you square for the entire animation

    1:59 - Skating backwards along the blue line instead of facing the play and doing crossovers or t-pushes, minimizing the area you have a chance to intercept a pass out of the zone for

    3:12 - Giant circle, not facing the puck, moving quickly, or covering anyone in particular

    5:08 - More of that sweet backskating along the blue line instead of a t-push or crossover, followed by a sweet pivot where you completely stop with your back to the puck, and would have given up a breakaway if they sent it down the ice

    5:45 - Covering that front row real well. Gotta make sure Mike Milbury isn't beating someone's **** with their own shoe in the crowd, ya know?

    5:50 - Thinking you were expecting him to go left here, but you ended up in a really bad position. Won't hold it against you though

    5:53 - Giant circle, not facing the puck, not really rushing to get to an open passing lane either

    6:37 - Gliding with your back to the play, resulting in coverage that could have been better on the player after he beats LD, giving them the pass to the point, then taking a large circle while facing your net and skating towards the point to block the shot. Both D actually gather so much momentum from trying to point up ice that you're both at the top of the circles with two forwards in behind you.

    6:49 - More stopping then pivoting instead of stopping while pivoting, which could have face you to the shot or pass much better

    8:25 - More circles instead of facing the play while getting back into position so you could potentially intercept a pass to that open man instead of chasing him around

    That's a dozen times in a single period where you knew ahead of time that you were going to post it here, so I can only assume you paid more attention to detail than usual. While I'm sure you'll come up with some clever way of saying you did exactly what you wanted to for some of these, you can't really argue that at least some of these highlight very real problems in the game.

    The first example I'd like you to explain is the one where you face the boards though at 5:45. Was it a hot girl, or maybe the cotton candy guy?


    All you're complaining about here is his decisions, not how tps prevents him from doing something. Just because he decided to circle around, he could have easily rotated his body and faced the play. Those mistakes you're pointing out aren't because of tps, but of a different decision to do something than what yours would be. NHL defensemen don't always face the puck either. The weak side forwards and D sometimes don't face the puck beucssebthey are focussed on something else like another player.

    At 5:45, he could have easily held VC and his player would have been locked on the puck. This is user error, not an issue with tps being broken. He could also have easily strafed across the blueline and skated/glided perpendicular to the blueline towards the boards slowly and skated around a touch, hold VC and face the play.
    Another issue where tps doesn't prevent you from doing what you want with it.

    Everyone knows it isn't perfect. Even the devs have said that, but in no way is it too difficult to get what you want out of it for the most part. And the most part is like 95% of the time.

    This is Hockey 101 stuff we're talking about here with facing the puck. Shero put it in his list with having the second forward on a rush always crash the net, and not having players pass it diagonally across the front of the net in their own zone, really basic things if you've ever played organized hockey.

    If TPS worked well for facing the play, I shouldn't be able to point out a mistake every 30 seconds for a single player trying their best to face the puck. When someone tries to post here and say that it's easy to do something, and then can't even do it reliably for an entire period, I'm going to call them on it.
  • eric57664
    240 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    Exactly what I said, it is Nicky who seems to not understand that everything you did was not because tps prevented you from doing it, it was because you decided to do it.

    Maybe he's not a full time defenceman and doesn't understand that sometimes you don't want to face the play due to something else going on and you want to focus on that. As for circling, that's the lazy mans route, not tps preventing from facing the play. Even NHLers do this lazy move. They circle instead of pivoting.
  • Zeroshift wrote: »
    It is obvious at this point that the development team isn't interested in giving more control to players. I disagree that the current engine is all that realistic, it just isn't, making a game more unresponsive isn't realistic, and I don't know how that became a thing.

    I just hope you realize that committing to the current 'vision', 'path', or whatever you want to call it is going to lead to even worse places for the game than it's already in, but by all means, keep going that way, I'm curious to see how long people deal with it.

    Also, what is all of this accountability talk? How were you less accountable pre TPS. If I got scored on or lost pre TPS, I knew what I did wrong and would make sure not to make the same mistake again. Now (granted I don't have 17, but played the beta), if you get scored on, you can't tell if it was your fault, or the game not responding, or your player not moving in a direction you told him to. I really don't get this argument.

    Not like me to defend the devs but.....

    The accountability he is referring to is in the movements you commit to. His point is, that with the old engine, you could move with speed in one direction and recover with ease, which is nothing like actual hockey. He's saying that the players in the game are accountable for where they move thier bodies. If you take an angle to stand a a guy up at the blue line, and the puck carrier started a cut when you did that, you should have little to no chance to recover because your momentum has taken you too far.
  • How can you be accountable for your moves, when in EASHL your player occasionally sways and rushes this way and that way ON ITS OWN without any input from you? Sometimes it's just a struggle to stay put in your place as a d-man.

    Please fix the frigging lag before anything else, and then the rest will get better. Even the way TPS and pickups are in their current condition.
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    How can you be accountable for your moves, when in EASHL your player occasionally sways and rushes this way and that way ON ITS OWN without any input from you? Sometimes it's just a struggle to stay put in your place as a d-man.

    I don't recall my player ever moving without any input from myself. Sometimes during a game I'll put my controller down to light a joint and my player will always stay in the same spot I left him. That's the key to steady D. HA!

    there is a vid that Kory put up... controller not touched; player moves.
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    How can you be accountable for your moves, when in EASHL your player occasionally sways and rushes this way and that way ON ITS OWN without any input from you? Sometimes it's just a struggle to stay put in your place as a d-man.

    I don't recall my player ever moving without any input from myself. Sometimes during a game I'll put my controller down to light a joint and my player will always stay in the same spot I left him. That's the key to steady D. HA!

    there is a vid that Kory put up... controller not touched; player moves.

    I'd like to see this then. Plus, maybe his controller is a bit defective from wear and tear that caused it. Maybe it needs to be reset/reconfigured.



    perhaps. but it looked like it was programmed 'cause the guy moved when AI was skating near his spot if I recall correctly.

    it's down a few pages I am sure.
  • I love it, I say
    I'd love to see a video of any 5v5 game where not a single player turns their back to the play. Surely if it were that easy, all of the best teams would be doing it. It doesn't even need to be both teams doing it, just your own team not turning your back to the play.

    You post a video of a single period and tell me to just watch your player, and then you try say that every time you weren't facing the puck that it was intentional. What a joke! This is supposed to be you trying your hardest to face the play, not just some random game I found that you had uploaded.

    My goal isn't to try and say you're bad at the game, just to point out the areas where TPS is failing users. I know the engine fairly well, and realize that many of these plays you may have decided to do because there was no better option. The fact that there was no better option is the problem I'm trying to get across. Facing the play should almost never be the wrong decision to make, which is why a legendary coach would tell his players to always do so, except for one specific case.

    1:14 - The blue line plays with TPS are awful. It's not so much that you're not facing the play as you could be facing the play far better if TPS actually allowed you to skate laterally across the blue line

    1:41 - You face the play because you don't know what's going through the other player's head. It's basic hockey. Maybe the LD thinks all of the other options are getting lined up for hits and he wants to pass it to you to see if something opens up.

    1:56 - You can literally pause it and see your player facing your own net as the puck is in the corner.

    3:12 - "Not a defensive liability", yet you completely leave their winger at the top of the circle for a perfect one-timer if they knew what they were doing. It's really a great play, you charge the winger off the face-off, and Green sits back to cover the front of the net, then you abandon the winger and take your nice big circle to the front of the net, so he tries to go back and cover him, then you decide to rush the point, leaving two undefended players directly in front of the net. If that shot got through (or if they had passed it around the three stooges charging the point man), those players would have had plenty of time score off any rebound.

    5:08 - You come to a complete stop facing away from the play. There's no way you meant to do this. The forward has position on you, and could have beaten you to any puck they iced down the rink. There's no debating this, you got beat, but the other team didn't notice quick enough to make you pay for it.

    5:44 - Please, let's not try to say you did this intentionally, and no, staring at the boards is not facing the play in any way.

    5:50 - But why did you come to a complete stop on the rush though? You surely didn't think that was the best thing to do. Also, that weak shot left a rebound that should have been put in.

    6:37 - "Why would I need to face the play/puck carrier when LD was on him and also my C was right there?" Well, because that's playing defense. No coach in the world will tell you to just face whatever direction you want if you think the rest of the team can handle the play. Also, you say the forwards have the responsibility to cover the point, yet this is the second time in this period (that I noticed) you went to the top of the circle to challenge a player taking a shot along with multiple other players from your team.

    6:49/8:25 - My point here isn't so much that you made a wrong decision as it is me saying that vision control in previous versions would have handled these cases exactly as you'd expect and NHL defender would. You're not sprinting around the ice, just adjusting your coverage, yet the game doesn't provide

    The last bit sort of goes for all of the points here. The old vision control made these areas of the game simple, and none of them are really complex examples. Stopping pivots (not just 180's, but 90 degree turns and anything in between), blue line strafing/t-pushes, and facing the play while skating at a moderate speed were all wonderful things that we really need in the game to contain forwards and set up better plays on offense.

  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    How can you be accountable for your moves, when in EASHL your player occasionally sways and rushes this way and that way ON ITS OWN without any input from you? Sometimes it's just a struggle to stay put in your place as a d-man.

    I don't recall my player ever moving without any input from myself. Sometimes during a game I'll put my controller down to light a joint and my player will always stay in the same spot I left him. That's the key to steady D. HA!

    Trust me, it happens. I have 5 controllers, and all of them are working perfectly. Didn't you write someplace that you rarely have lag anyways, so I guess you wouldn't experience this either?

    And would you even notice, if you're a drug-fiend? :o
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    That might be the case and thanks for the explanation but I could care less about the AI and how they react with TPS because I don't play with the AI.

    I only play EASHL so I only care about TPS in relation to my human player.

    I think the majority in this discussion are more concerned with the player they are controlling and not when the AI controls themselves.

    The fact that even the AI has trouble doing basic skating moves at low speeds, and constantly finds itself pivoting the wrong way, or making clunky turns, etc., speaks to the problems with TPS more generally. If this were a smooth, intuitive skating engine, you wouldn't see the AI constantly find itself with its back turned to the play.

    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.

    +100

    I keep seeing everyone blaming TPS but I personally didn't start hating this series until NHL15 on new gen. I loved NHL 13, 14, 15 and Legacy on the PS3/360. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice much difference from NHL12 to 13, I was just happy with the product and had fun playing.

    The switch from old gen to new gen is what really messed everything up, not TPS in my opinion. The AI got WAY worse, the lucky bounces got way worse, the wonky physics got way worse, control of your skater feels way worse, menus are laggy which makes them way worse, no goalie interference penalties makes it just laughable thus way worse. The list goes on, whether I play club, drop in or vs, anytime I hear anyone on the mic they're making fun of the game and how terrible it is or just sounds of constant frustration. Honestly a night of club these days is just sighs, deep breaths and 'wows' 'really?' 'did that just happen?' etc. It's unreal how they made the most fun game to play such a terrible game to play.
  • Disagree,

    You could tell a huge difference between NHL 12 and NHL 13 once they removed vision control and implemented TPS, from that point on skating was sluggish and you couldn't properly face the puck anymore.

    NHL 13, TPS and messing with vision control started the decline of this game.
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