EA Forums - Banner

EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

Replies

  • Not just the **** poor skating in this game, the terrible AI, the poor physics shooting and stick, goalies and their animations. There is so much wrong holding this game back, it all starts with the dev team and its leaders. They suck I have no faith in them.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    That might be the case and thanks for the explanation but I could care less about the AI and how they react with TPS because I don't play with the AI.

    I only play EASHL so I only care about TPS in relation to my human player.

    I think the majority in this discussion are more concerned with the player they are controlling and not when the AI controls themselves.

    The fact that even the AI has trouble doing basic skating moves at low speeds, and constantly finds itself pivoting the wrong way, or making clunky turns, etc., speaks to the problems with TPS more generally. If this were a smooth, intuitive skating engine, you wouldn't see the AI constantly find itself with its back turned to the play.

    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.

    +100

    I keep seeing everyone blaming TPS but I personally didn't start hating this series until NHL15 on new gen. I loved NHL 13, 14, 15 and Legacy on the PS3/360. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice much difference from NHL12 to 13, I was just happy with the product and had fun playing.

    The switch from old gen to new gen is what really messed everything up, not TPS in my opinion. The AI got WAY worse, the lucky bounces got way worse, the wonky physics got way worse, control of your skater feels way worse, menus are laggy which makes them way worse, no goalie interference penalties makes it just laughable thus way worse. The list goes on, whether I play club, drop in or vs, anytime I hear anyone on the mic they're making fun of the game and how terrible it is or just sounds of constant frustration. Honestly a night of club these days is just sighs, deep breaths and 'wows' 'really?' 'did that just happen?' etc. It's unreal how they made the most fun game to play such a terrible game to play.

    I think you could argue that both TPS and the next-gen transition have caused problems in the game today. It's not just one thing that you can point to and fix everything wrong with the game. TPS is a part of the problem right now because responsiveness is so low in this generation for some reason. I've been a 60-70% faceoff center for pretty much all of 10-15, but in the next-gen games I've been barely 50%. I've actually moved to a better ISP (gigabit fiber to the home) to try and fix the problem, and it did nothing.

    Even if they fixed the lag issues, there are still skating issues where pivots simply take way too long to complete, even in offline modes, and lateral skating is not as easy to do as it should be.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.
    +100

    I keep seeing everyone blaming TPS but I personally didn't start hating this series until NHL15 on new gen. I loved NHL 13, 14, 15 and Legacy on the PS3/360. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice much difference from NHL12 to 13, I was just happy with the product and had fun playing.

    The switch from old gen to new gen is what really messed everything up, not TPS in my opinion. The AI got WAY worse, the lucky bounces got way worse, the wonky physics got way worse, control of your skater feels way worse, menus are laggy which makes them way worse, no goalie interference penalties makes it just laughable thus way worse. The list goes on, whether I play club, drop in or vs, anytime I hear anyone on the mic they're making fun of the game and how terrible it is or just sounds of constant frustration. Honestly a night of club these days is just sighs, deep breaths and 'wows' 'really?' 'did that just happen?' etc. It's unreal how they made the most fun game to play such a terrible game to play.

    You both realize that TPS isn't some singular unchanged thing, right?

    TPS was introduced in 13, had changes made in 14, some for the better, some worse, I believe kept mostly the same for 15 on last gen ( I never played it) and "re-written" for the next gen system "from the ground up". The current iteration of TPS, the one written for XO and PS4 that we currently have performs far worse than last gen and leads to all types of problems.

    Even saying TPS last gen was better is a vague statement because there were noticeable changes between 13 and 14. There are even bigger changes on the new consoles.

    TPS last gen still needed some work, but was much better than what we have now.
  • I love it, I say
    I'd love to see a video of any 5v5 game where not a single player turns their back to the play. Surely if it were that easy, all of the best teams would be doing it. It doesn't even need to be both teams doing it, just your own team not turning your back to the play.

    You post a video of a single period and tell me to just watch your player, and then you try say that every time you weren't facing the puck that it was intentional. What a joke! This is supposed to be you trying your hardest to face the play, not just some random game I found that you had uploaded.

    My goal isn't to try and say you're bad at the game, just to point out the areas where TPS is failing users. I know the engine fairly well, and realize that many of these plays you may have decided to do because there was no better option. The fact that there was no better option is the problem I'm trying to get across. Facing the play should almost never be the wrong decision to make, which is why a legendary coach would tell his players to always do so, except for one specific case.

    1:14 - The blue line plays with TPS are awful. It's not so much that you're not facing the play as you could be facing the play far better if TPS actually allowed you to skate laterally across the blue line

    1:41 - You face the play because you don't know what's going through the other player's head. It's basic hockey. Maybe the LD thinks all of the other options are getting lined up for hits and he wants to pass it to you to see if something opens up.

    1:56 - You can literally pause it and see your player facing your own net as the puck is in the corner.

    3:12 - "Not a defensive liability", yet you completely leave their winger at the top of the circle for a perfect one-timer if they knew what they were doing. It's really a great play, you charge the winger off the face-off, and Green sits back to cover the front of the net, then you abandon the winger and take your nice big circle to the front of the net, so he tries to go back and cover him, then you decide to rush the point, leaving two undefended players directly in front of the net. If that shot got through (or if they had passed it around the three stooges charging the point man), those players would have had plenty of time score off any rebound.

    5:08 - You come to a complete stop facing away from the play. There's no way you meant to do this. The forward has position on you, and could have beaten you to any puck they iced down the rink. There's no debating this, you got beat, but the other team didn't notice quick enough to make you pay for it.

    5:44 - Please, let's not try to say you did this intentionally, and no, staring at the boards is not facing the play in any way.

    5:50 - But why did you come to a complete stop on the rush though? You surely didn't think that was the best thing to do. Also, that weak shot left a rebound that should have been put in.

    6:37 - "Why would I need to face the play/puck carrier when LD was on him and also my C was right there?" Well, because that's playing defense. No coach in the world will tell you to just face whatever direction you want if you think the rest of the team can handle the play. Also, you say the forwards have the responsibility to cover the point, yet this is the second time in this period (that I noticed) you went to the top of the circle to challenge a player taking a shot along with multiple other players from your team.

    6:49/8:25 - My point here isn't so much that you made a wrong decision as it is me saying that vision control in previous versions would have handled these cases exactly as you'd expect and NHL defender would. You're not sprinting around the ice, just adjusting your coverage, yet the game doesn't provide

    The last bit sort of goes for all of the points here. The old vision control made these areas of the game simple, and none of them are really complex examples. Stopping pivots (not just 180's, but 90 degree turns and anything in between), blue line strafing/t-pushes, and facing the play while skating at a moderate speed were all wonderful things that we really need in the game to contain forwards and set up better plays on offense.

    First of all, you asked for a video of any 5 vs 5 game where not any single player (or even just my team) turns his back to the play. I only play EASHL modes so obviously I'm only in control of MY player. I can't do anything about other players possibly turning their backs to the play so why do you need examples of them not doing so?

    Secondly, you asked for a video so I just went into a random drop in game and recorded it. I'm new to recording and posting videos so I don't have a collection of videos saved. I don't stream, twitch tweet, twit, twerk, Facebook or whatever. I'd rather just play the freaking game then spend time editing and uploading videos which isn't a priority for me.

    Thirdly, why am I going to try my hardest in a random drop in game just to prove a point? If I really wanted to play a game concentrating on ALWAYS making my player face the puck/play then ALL I would have to do is press/hold L2 Vision Control the majority of the time.

    TPS doesn't force my player to have his back to the play. If I'm not facing the play/puck at any moment then that is purposely being done by me whether it is because I don't need or want to or simply because I don't care to.

    That's my point and the ONLY one I'm really interested in discussing. You can discuss your other points with other people because those things are irrelevant to me.

    ****, sometimes I'm doing other things and not even concentrating/paying attention to the game. I don't think I've ever concentrated on a game 100% so I'm definitely not going to concentrate on/pay attention to if my player is facing the play/puck or not at ALL times. HA!

    If I make a bad decision to not face the play/puck then that's on me, not because of TPS. If there are better options that I choose to ignore then that's on me, not because of TPS. With that in mind, I don't have the patience and time to go through all those specific times you mentioned again. Once again, if I made a bad decision or not, that's NOT the point!

    Furthermore, did you notice the skills/ability of my teammates? That makes a huge difference on how I play sometimes. My wingers and LD were horrible! I'm not going to give my full attention to some random bad players and make sure I'm playing safe to cover for them at all times nor do I expect other players to do so for me when I'm playing bad. That's the nature of drop ins. Club games are a different story and there are a some things I did in that drop in game that I wouldn't do so in club. This is obviously not the point. I just wanted to explain how I play sometimes.

    One last non point is that this is video game hockey so sometimes some of the basic rules or real hockey are ignored and need not apply. Like facing the play/puck at ALL times. :tongue:

    So why don't you post a video of you playing a game of you pressing/holding VC trying to face the play/puck but you not being able to because of TPS.

    You can't just waltz into a conversation where someone is trying to make a point about something, and then make a completely different point and say you're right, which is essentially what you're doing right now. I asked anyone for a video showing them facing the play for the entire game, and then you get mad when I point out all the areas where you weren't facing the play the way an NHL player should.

    I assumed that since you went through the trouble to figure out how to upload videos that you actually cared about making some sort of point. Surely you didn't just accidentally upload the video, and you played the period knowing ahead of time that you were going to post it online. For some reason this is important enough for you to learn that and spend this time arguing, but not actually try more than normal in the clip you upload?

    The cases where you back skated along the blue line illustrate what I'm talking about perfectly. It's not so much that you're not facing the play at all, as much as the fact that your player should be able to face the puck much better by skating laterally along the line with your chest facing forwards. That's TPS not allowing you to face the puck well.

    It's funny, because you seem to be so ardent that TPS works well, yet you talk about how you don't really pay attention. Which is it? Is it maybe possible that if you paid more attention to the game that you'd notice some of what we're talking about here?

    Now you're blaming your teammates for you not paying attention too! Let's keep digging this hole for you. Maybe post a club game then, and that way I can see how good you really are?

    Finally, there are a huge number of posts here showing the problems with TPS already, and I pointed out the issues in your video as well. We've been talking about the lack of real vision control for years now. The flaws in it now are well documented, and progress at fixing it has been slow at best.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.
    +100

    I keep seeing everyone blaming TPS but I personally didn't start hating this series until NHL15 on new gen. I loved NHL 13, 14, 15 and Legacy on the PS3/360. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice much difference from NHL12 to 13, I was just happy with the product and had fun playing.

    The switch from old gen to new gen is what really messed everything up, not TPS in my opinion. The AI got WAY worse, the lucky bounces got way worse, the wonky physics got way worse, control of your skater feels way worse, menus are laggy which makes them way worse, no goalie interference penalties makes it just laughable thus way worse. The list goes on, whether I play club, drop in or vs, anytime I hear anyone on the mic they're making fun of the game and how terrible it is or just sounds of constant frustration. Honestly a night of club these days is just sighs, deep breaths and 'wows' 'really?' 'did that just happen?' etc. It's unreal how they made the most fun game to play such a terrible game to play.

    You both realize that TPS isn't some singular unchanged thing, right?

    TPS was introduced in 13, had changes made in 14, some for the better, some worse, I believe kept mostly the same for 15 on last gen ( I never played it) and "re-written" for the next gen system "from the ground up". The current iteration of TPS, the one written for XO and PS4 that we currently have performs far worse than last gen and leads to all types of problems.

    Even saying TPS last gen was better is a vague statement because there were noticeable changes between 13 and 14. There are even bigger changes on the new consoles.

    TPS last gen still needed some work, but was much better than what we have now.

    You are confused. Let me backtrack a bit. Bmh said the reason why the ai faces the wrong way is because of tps. My response was that it wasn't because tps, because on last gen, ai didn't have this issue with turning and pivoting the wrong way. Why do you continue to say how it performs for us? This isn't what I was responding to from bmh? It was specifically ai related. So that's why I said what bmh was saying that tps isn't the issue for ai as last gen we had tps and ai never did these mistakes.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.
    +100

    I keep seeing everyone blaming TPS but I personally didn't start hating this series until NHL15 on new gen. I loved NHL 13, 14, 15 and Legacy on the PS3/360. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice much difference from NHL12 to 13, I was just happy with the product and had fun playing.

    The switch from old gen to new gen is what really messed everything up, not TPS in my opinion. The AI got WAY worse, the lucky bounces got way worse, the wonky physics got way worse, control of your skater feels way worse, menus are laggy which makes them way worse, no goalie interference penalties makes it just laughable thus way worse. The list goes on, whether I play club, drop in or vs, anytime I hear anyone on the mic they're making fun of the game and how terrible it is or just sounds of constant frustration. Honestly a night of club these days is just sighs, deep breaths and 'wows' 'really?' 'did that just happen?' etc. It's unreal how they made the most fun game to play such a terrible game to play.

    You both realize that TPS isn't some singular unchanged thing, right?

    TPS was introduced in 13, had changes made in 14, some for the better, some worse, I believe kept mostly the same for 15 on last gen ( I never played it) and "re-written" for the next gen system "from the ground up". The current iteration of TPS, the one written for XO and PS4 that we currently have performs far worse than last gen and leads to all types of problems.

    Even saying TPS last gen was better is a vague statement because there were noticeable changes between 13 and 14. There are even bigger changes on the new consoles.

    TPS last gen still needed some work, but was much better than what we have now.

    You are confused. Let me backtrack a bit. Bmh said the reason why the ai faces the wrong way is because of tps. My response was that it wasn't because tps, because on last gen, ai didn't have this issue with turning and pivoting the wrong way. Why do you continue to say how it performs for us? This isn't what I was responding to from bmh? It was specifically ai related. So that's why I said what bmh was saying that tps isn't the issue for ai as last gen we had tps and ai never did these mistakes.

    Why are you trying to make this so complicated. You have to be overthinking this, because the point you're missing is very simple.

    TPS last gen = OK
    AI Skating last gen = OK

    TPS this gen = terrible
    AI skating this gen = terrible

    The AI being able to use TPS well last gen doesn't matter, because we aren't debating TPS last gen, we are debating it this gen. It is different, clunkier, wonkier, less responsive. The AI has issues with all of those things, as do many humans. Is it just a coincidence that AI has issues with the same exact things that humans are complaining about?

    An AI winger abandoning a 2 on 1 for no reason is a bad AI programming issue. An AI winger doing an odd spin that puts him in a bad position is a TPS issue.

    Your argument that the AI didn't have these problems last gen is moot, if anything it proves the point he (and I) are trying to make. TPS has gotten worse. It doesn't matter that the AI could still skate well last gen. Of course they could, TPS wasn't this bad. Now that it's all messed up, the AI is all messed up using it.
  • I love it, I say
    I'd love to see a video of any 5v5 game where not a single player turns their back to the play. Surely if it were that easy, all of the best teams would be doing it. It doesn't even need to be both teams doing it, just your own team not turning your back to the play.

    You post a video of a single period and tell me to just watch your player, and then you try say that every time you weren't facing the puck that it was intentional. What a joke! This is supposed to be you trying your hardest to face the play, not just some random game I found that you had uploaded.

    My goal isn't to try and say you're bad at the game, just to point out the areas where TPS is failing users. I know the engine fairly well, and realize that many of these plays you may have decided to do because there was no better option. The fact that there was no better option is the problem I'm trying to get across. Facing the play should almost never be the wrong decision to make, which is why a legendary coach would tell his players to always do so, except for one specific case.

    1:14 - The blue line plays with TPS are awful. It's not so much that you're not facing the play as you could be facing the play far better if TPS actually allowed you to skate laterally across the blue line

    1:41 - You face the play because you don't know what's going through the other player's head. It's basic hockey. Maybe the LD thinks all of the other options are getting lined up for hits and he wants to pass it to you to see if something opens up.

    1:56 - You can literally pause it and see your player facing your own net as the puck is in the corner.

    3:12 - "Not a defensive liability", yet you completely leave their winger at the top of the circle for a perfect one-timer if they knew what they were doing. It's really a great play, you charge the winger off the face-off, and Green sits back to cover the front of the net, then you abandon the winger and take your nice big circle to the front of the net, so he tries to go back and cover him, then you decide to rush the point, leaving two undefended players directly in front of the net. If that shot got through (or if they had passed it around the three stooges charging the point man), those players would have had plenty of time score off any rebound.

    5:08 - You come to a complete stop facing away from the play. There's no way you meant to do this. The forward has position on you, and could have beaten you to any puck they iced down the rink. There's no debating this, you got beat, but the other team didn't notice quick enough to make you pay for it.

    5:44 - Please, let's not try to say you did this intentionally, and no, staring at the boards is not facing the play in any way.

    5:50 - But why did you come to a complete stop on the rush though? You surely didn't think that was the best thing to do. Also, that weak shot left a rebound that should have been put in.

    6:37 - "Why would I need to face the play/puck carrier when LD was on him and also my C was right there?" Well, because that's playing defense. No coach in the world will tell you to just face whatever direction you want if you think the rest of the team can handle the play. Also, you say the forwards have the responsibility to cover the point, yet this is the second time in this period (that I noticed) you went to the top of the circle to challenge a player taking a shot along with multiple other players from your team.

    6:49/8:25 - My point here isn't so much that you made a wrong decision as it is me saying that vision control in previous versions would have handled these cases exactly as you'd expect and NHL defender would. You're not sprinting around the ice, just adjusting your coverage, yet the game doesn't provide

    The last bit sort of goes for all of the points here. The old vision control made these areas of the game simple, and none of them are really complex examples. Stopping pivots (not just 180's, but 90 degree turns and anything in between), blue line strafing/t-pushes, and facing the play while skating at a moderate speed were all wonderful things that we really need in the game to contain forwards and set up better plays on offense.

    First of all, you asked for a video of any 5 vs 5 game where not any single player (or even just my team) turns his back to the play. I only play EASHL modes so obviously I'm only in control of MY player. I can't do anything about other players possibly turning their backs to the play so why do you need examples of them not doing so?

    Secondly, you asked for a video so I just went into a random drop in game and recorded it. I'm new to recording and posting videos so I don't have a collection of videos saved. I don't stream, twitch tweet, twit, twerk, Facebook or whatever. I'd rather just play the freaking game then spend time editing and uploading videos which isn't a priority for me.

    Thirdly, why am I going to try my hardest in a random drop in game just to prove a point? If I really wanted to play a game concentrating on ALWAYS making my player face the puck/play then ALL I would have to do is press/hold L2 Vision Control the majority of the time.

    TPS doesn't force my player to have his back to the play. If I'm not facing the play/puck at any moment then that is purposely being done by me whether it is because I don't need or want to or simply because I don't care to.

    That's my point and the ONLY one I'm really interested in discussing. You can discuss your other points with other people because those things are irrelevant to me.

    ****, sometimes I'm doing other things and not even concentrating/paying attention to the game. I don't think I've ever concentrated on a game 100% so I'm definitely not going to concentrate on/pay attention to if my player is facing the play/puck or not at ALL times. HA!

    If I make a bad decision to not face the play/puck then that's on me, not because of TPS. If there are better options that I choose to ignore then that's on me, not because of TPS. With that in mind, I don't have the patience and time to go through all those specific times you mentioned again. Once again, if I made a bad decision or not, that's NOT the point!

    Furthermore, did you notice the skills/ability of my teammates? That makes a huge difference on how I play sometimes. My wingers and LD were horrible! I'm not going to give my full attention to some random bad players and make sure I'm playing safe to cover for them at all times nor do I expect other players to do so for me when I'm playing bad. That's the nature of drop ins. Club games are a different story and there are a some things I did in that drop in game that I wouldn't do so in club. This is obviously not the point. I just wanted to explain how I play sometimes.

    One last non point is that this is video game hockey so sometimes some of the basic rules or real hockey are ignored and need not apply. Like facing the play/puck at ALL times. :tongue:

    So why don't you post a video of you playing a game of you pressing/holding VC trying to face the play/puck but you not being able to because of TPS.

    You can't just waltz into a conversation where someone is trying to make a point about something, and then make a completely different point and say you're right, which is essentially what you're doing right now. I asked anyone for a video showing them facing the play for the entire game, and then you get mad when I point out all the areas where you weren't facing the play the way an NHL player should.

    I assumed that since you went through the trouble to figure out how to upload videos that you actually cared about making some sort of point. Surely you didn't just accidentally upload the video, and you played the period knowing ahead of time that you were going to post it online. For some reason this is important enough for you to learn that and spend this time arguing, but not actually try more than normal in the clip you upload?

    The cases where you back skated along the blue line illustrate what I'm talking about perfectly. It's not so much that you're not facing the play at all, as much as the fact that your player should be able to face the puck much better by skating laterally along the line with your chest facing forwards. That's TPS not allowing you to face the puck well.

    It's funny, because you seem to be so ardent that TPS works well, yet you talk about how you don't really pay attention. Which is it? Is it maybe possible that if you paid more attention to the game that you'd notice some of what we're talking about here?

    Now you're blaming your teammates for you not paying attention too! Let's keep digging this hole for you. Maybe post a club game then, and that way I can see how good you really are?

    Finally, there are a huge number of posts here showing the problems with TPS already, and I pointed out the issues in your video as well. We've been talking about the lack of real vision control for years now. The flaws in it now are well documented, and progress at fixing it has been slow at best.

    You originally posted those rules of Shero and then stated that EA doesn't give humans the ability to do so easily.

    I said TPS doesn't prevent that or users don't know how to use it properly or choose not to.

    The you asked for a video example of players not having their backs to the play. You said TPS is the reason why we sometimes have our backs to the play.

    I disagree.

    That's the only thing I originally brought up and the only thing I'm trying to discuss but you keep being up other aspects of TPS among other things.

    I already stated the main issue I have with TPS and it's not the point I'm trying to discuss anyway but:

    You said: "The cases where you back skated along the blue line illustrate what I'm talking about perfectly. It's not so much that you're not facing the play at all, as much as the fact that your player should be able to face the puck much better by skating laterally along the line with your chest facing forwards. That's TPS not allowing you to face the puck well."

    That is my problem with TPS. I would love to be able to shuffle/push/side step along the blue line just facing forward when I want to do so whether I'm facing the play/puck or not. With that I agree and that is why I do certain things on the ice to compensate.

    So which is it? TPS doesnt allow us to face the puck as well as we should be able to or as you previously said TPS makes our players turn and face our backs to the play?

    I also want to be able to make the same movements in front of my net whether I'm guarding a player or not and/or facing the play/puck or not.

    The only problem I have with TPS is it doesn't allow me to make the same lateral movements without the puck than players can with it. Otherwise TPS allows me to do what I want to do. If TPS doesn't allow me to do something that I don't need to or want to then I don't care.

    I said I was "new" to saving and uploading videos so that doesn't mean I "went through the trouble to figure out how to upload videos". Don't assume.

    I also didn't "blame" my teammates for "not paying attention". I said they make a difference on how I choose to play a game. If I wanted to blame my teammates for me not paying attention then I would've just stated that!

    As for how "good" I am. That's irrelevant but both my PSN ID's are easily accessible so look me and maybe just for you I'll make sure I'm playing my best. :tongue:

    What's your PSN ID (if in fact you're PS4)?

    You did have your back to the play multiple times in that one period though, including a couple times where you were looking at your own net while the puck was in the corner. This isn't a one or the other issue. TPS/VC does a mediocre job at facing the puck sometimes, and some others it ends up looking terrible. It also has a range of times when it works well, but those negatives happen too much for me to really appreciate them.

    What would an online match really solve here though? My PSN is that same as it is here, but what reason do I actually have to play you? It's not like if I win the match I also win the argument. As I said earlier, I don't mean to suggest that you're bad at the game at all or that I'm better at it. Feel free to call me a chicken or whatever you'd like, but playing a game wouldn't change anything, especially in a game where we've documented so many cases where the game doesn't perform well in online play. You might as well try to prove that driving isn't so hard by having us both chug a random amount of booze and seeing who crashes first.

    Anyways, nice job on deleting your video so the devs can never see it. I think you sum it up best when you say "If TPS doesn't allow me to do something that I don't need to or want to then I don't care". That's great that you don't care, but some of us get frustrated because we can skate better in real life than in the game.
  • LOL. All I'm going to say.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.
    +100

    I keep seeing everyone blaming TPS but I personally didn't start hating this series until NHL15 on new gen. I loved NHL 13, 14, 15 and Legacy on the PS3/360. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice much difference from NHL12 to 13, I was just happy with the product and had fun playing.

    The switch from old gen to new gen is what really messed everything up, not TPS in my opinion. The AI got WAY worse, the lucky bounces got way worse, the wonky physics got way worse, control of your skater feels way worse, menus are laggy which makes them way worse, no goalie interference penalties makes it just laughable thus way worse. The list goes on, whether I play club, drop in or vs, anytime I hear anyone on the mic they're making fun of the game and how terrible it is or just sounds of constant frustration. Honestly a night of club these days is just sighs, deep breaths and 'wows' 'really?' 'did that just happen?' etc. It's unreal how they made the most fun game to play such a terrible game to play.

    You both realize that TPS isn't some singular unchanged thing, right?

    TPS was introduced in 13, had changes made in 14, some for the better, some worse, I believe kept mostly the same for 15 on last gen ( I never played it) and "re-written" for the next gen system "from the ground up". The current iteration of TPS, the one written for XO and PS4 that we currently have performs far worse than last gen and leads to all types of problems.

    Even saying TPS last gen was better is a vague statement because there were noticeable changes between 13 and 14. There are even bigger changes on the new consoles.

    TPS last gen still needed some work, but was much better than what we have now.

    You are confused. Let me backtrack a bit. Bmh said the reason why the ai faces the wrong way is because of tps. My response was that it wasn't because tps, because on last gen, ai didn't have this issue with turning and pivoting the wrong way. Why do you continue to say how it performs for us? This isn't what I was responding to from bmh? It was specifically ai related. So that's why I said what bmh was saying that tps isn't the issue for ai as last gen we had tps and ai never did these mistakes.

    Why are you trying to make this so complicated. You have to be overthinking this, because the point you're missing is very simple.

    TPS last gen = OK
    AI Skating last gen = OK

    TPS this gen = terrible
    AI skating this gen = terrible

    The AI being able to use TPS well last gen doesn't matter, because we aren't debating TPS last gen, we are debating it this gen. It is different, clunkier, wonkier, less responsive. The AI has issues with all of those things, as do many humans. Is it just a coincidence that AI has issues with the same exact things that humans are complaining about?

    An AI winger abandoning a 2 on 1 for no reason is a bad AI programming issue. An AI winger doing an odd spin that puts him in a bad position is a TPS issue.

    Your argument that the AI didn't have these problems last gen is moot, if anything it proves the point he (and I) are trying to make. TPS has gotten worse. It doesn't matter that the AI could still skate well last gen. Of course they could, TPS wasn't this bad. Now that it's all messed up, the AI is all messed up using it.

    It is not moot and the topic of last gen ai is very relevant because bmh brought it up. Stop being lost in this conversation. Why don't you go back and see what he typed and then what I replied with. You just added complete nonsense by saying it's isn't relevant and is moot.

    How you are this confused by what bmh has said and what I responded with is quite mind boggling. Yes tps got worse for ai this gen, but that is not on tps, that is on bad programming. If they could get tps right back then in NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy, then suddenly have ai teammates pivot and face the wrong way on a rush, it's obvious it's not tps, but problem with programming ai to use tps. It's still the same mechanic from 13.

    I've read that Ben has said that the ai decides more now when to pivot, when to use skate backwards and when to use VC. That right there isn't tps but ai making wrong decisions on how to use tps.

    NHL on old gen had skate backwards only. It was never a mix/hybrid of that and VC. But that's how it is now. VC and skate backwards are both connected together and it could simply be confusing for the ai causing them to make mistakes, which would be bad programming, not tps itself.

    It isn't that hard to understand.
  • Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    Sgt_Kelso wrote: »
    How can you be accountable for your moves, when in EASHL your player occasionally sways and rushes this way and that way ON ITS OWN without any input from you? Sometimes it's just a struggle to stay put in your place as a d-man.

    I don't recall my player ever moving without any input from myself. Sometimes during a game I'll put my controller down to light a joint and my player will always stay in the same spot I left him. That's the key to steady D. HA!

    Trust me, it happens. I have 5 controllers, and all of them are working perfectly. Didn't you write someplace that you rarely have lag anyways, so I guess you wouldn't experience this either?

    And would you even notice, if you're a drug-fiend? :o

    Yes I rarely experience lag/input delay.

    Yeah, someone who occasionally smokes 420 is a "drug-fiend". :smirk: I can normally smoke and play at the same time but not when I'm also holding a beer. So are you going to call me an alcoholic now? :lol:
    If you hated this game you would be a perfect candidate to join my club lol
  • sethamphetamines
    330 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    eric57664 wrote: »
    The issue with the ai isn't tps, it's just bad programming. If the problem was tps, then how did old generation of consoles like Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 with NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy not have any of these issues from the ai?

    I don't know what went wrong from last generation to this generation, but it's clear that it isn't because of tps.
    +100

    I keep seeing everyone blaming TPS but I personally didn't start hating this series until NHL15 on new gen. I loved NHL 13, 14, 15 and Legacy on the PS3/360. As a matter of fact I didn't even notice much difference from NHL12 to 13, I was just happy with the product and had fun playing.

    The switch from old gen to new gen is what really messed everything up, not TPS in my opinion. The AI got WAY worse, the lucky bounces got way worse, the wonky physics got way worse, control of your skater feels way worse, menus are laggy which makes them way worse, no goalie interference penalties makes it just laughable thus way worse. The list goes on, whether I play club, drop in or vs, anytime I hear anyone on the mic they're making fun of the game and how terrible it is or just sounds of constant frustration. Honestly a night of club these days is just sighs, deep breaths and 'wows' 'really?' 'did that just happen?' etc. It's unreal how they made the most fun game to play such a terrible game to play.

    You both realize that TPS isn't some singular unchanged thing, right?

    TPS was introduced in 13, had changes made in 14, some for the better, some worse, I believe kept mostly the same for 15 on last gen ( I never played it) and "re-written" for the next gen system "from the ground up". The current iteration of TPS, the one written for XO and PS4 that we currently have performs far worse than last gen and leads to all types of problems.

    Even saying TPS last gen was better is a vague statement because there were noticeable changes between 13 and 14. There are even bigger changes on the new consoles.

    TPS last gen still needed some work, but was much better than what we have now.

    You are confused. Let me backtrack a bit. Bmh said the reason why the ai faces the wrong way is because of tps. My response was that it wasn't because tps, because on last gen, ai didn't have this issue with turning and pivoting the wrong way. Why do you continue to say how it performs for us? This isn't what I was responding to from bmh? It was specifically ai related. So that's why I said what bmh was saying that tps isn't the issue for ai as last gen we had tps and ai never did these mistakes.

    Why are you trying to make this so complicated. You have to be overthinking this, because the point you're missing is very simple.

    TPS last gen = OK
    AI Skating last gen = OK

    TPS this gen = terrible
    AI skating this gen = terrible

    The AI being able to use TPS well last gen doesn't matter, because we aren't debating TPS last gen, we are debating it this gen. It is different, clunkier, wonkier, less responsive. The AI has issues with all of those things, as do many humans. Is it just a coincidence that AI has issues with the same exact things that humans are complaining about?

    An AI winger abandoning a 2 on 1 for no reason is a bad AI programming issue. An AI winger doing an odd spin that puts him in a bad position is a TPS issue.

    Your argument that the AI didn't have these problems last gen is moot, if anything it proves the point he (and I) are trying to make. TPS has gotten worse. It doesn't matter that the AI could still skate well last gen. Of course they could, TPS wasn't this bad. Now that it's all messed up, the AI is all messed up using it.

    It is not moot and the topic of last gen ai is very relevant because bmh brought it up. Stop being lost in this conversation. Why don't you go back and see what he typed and then what I replied with. You just added complete nonsense by saying it's isn't relevant and is moot.

    How you are this confused by what bmh has said and what I responded with is quite mind boggling. Yes tps got worse for ai this gen, but that is not on tps, that is on bad programming. If they could get tps right back then in NHL 13, 14, 15 and legacy, then suddenly have ai teammates pivot and face the wrong way on a rush, it's obvious it's not tps, but problem with programming ai to use tps. It's still the same mechanic from 13.

    I've read that Ben has said that the ai decides more now when to pivot, when to use skate backwards and when to use VC. That right there isn't tps but ai making wrong decisions on how to use tps.

    NHL on old gen had skate backwards only. It was never a mix/hybrid of that and VC. But that's how it is now. VC and skate backwards are both connected together and it could simply be confusing for the ai causing them to make mistakes, which would be bad programming, not tps itself.

    It isn't that hard to understand.

    This is a comment from BMH that you replied to:
    If this were a smooth, intuitive skating engine, you wouldn't see the AI constantly find itself with its back turned to the play.

    TPS was a better skating engine, and the AI was fine, just as he said, and I reiterated.

    He never mentioned last gen. You did to try and somehow prove that TPS on this gen wasn't the issue. You took two unrelated things (AI last gen, TPS this gen) and said - see, TPS is fine. That doesn't make sense. I can't break it down any simpler for you than I did above.

    TPS last gen = OK
    AI Skating last gen = OK

    TPS this gen = terrible
    AI skating this gen = terrible

    AI working well with skating last gen, then struggling with it this gen doesn't prove anything. AI struggling to not pivot or spin awkwardly (this gen) the same way that humans do (this gen) does prove, or at least strongly suggest that TPS is the issue.

  • TPS is definitely the issue.
  • The deficiencies in TPS are definitely an issue.
    ;)

  • eric57664
    240 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    Bmh245 wrote: »
    That whole list of Shero's rules is a great showcase of all that's wrong with this game, and with the AI in particular, since they violate so many of his rules over and over again, especially on defense.

    Sorry then as I didn't mention I was talking about us human players in EASHL and not about the AI.

    I also don't know why someone would talk about how the AI plays or doesn't play in a discussion about TPS. I don't think it matters which skating engine is in play when it comes to the AI. The AI were doing the same things with the old skating system too.

    It absolutely matters which skating engine is in play when it comes to the AI. The AI has been much worse about facing the play since the new-gen game debuted, and they're much more likely to take themselves out of the play with bad weight shifts and pivots. And the worst part is that new-gen TPS has made the consequences of AI mistakes much greater, since there's no way to recover quickly when the AI screws up, which it does constantly. The devs have created a skating system in which AI players are much more accountable for the mistakes they make, but have also adopted an ill-conceived "read and react" AI engine that leads to the AI making innumerable mistakes. It's the combination of TPS and bad AI that has made playing 1v1 an experience of constant frustation.

    @sethamphetamines THIS is what i was in reference to. He doesn't mention old gen specifically but it was implied as he used NEW GEN as his reference as to why it's become a problem, hence him saying "since the new-gen game debuted". That right there says that new gen is the problem with tps, not that tps is a problem. I do recall that bmh also said before that tps never had these issues before of the ai unable to facing the play. Not in this thread probably but he has said it before.

    So that's another part of what I was responding to and that's why I replied to him. So you basically interjected into a conversation without any prior knowledge of information iterated on his part. And that's why everything I've stated isn't moot. You're just not up to par with what has been said before. You're just taking a reply for face value and that was wrong.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    It absolutely matters which skating engine is in play when it comes to the AI. The AI has been much worse about facing the play since the new-gen game debuted, and they're much more likely to take themselves out of the play with bad weight shifts and pivots. And the worst part is that new-gen TPS has made the consequences of AI mistakes much greater, since there's no way to recover quickly when the AI screws up, which it does constantly. The devs have created a skating system in which AI players are much more accountable for the mistakes they make, but have also adopted an ill-conceived "read and react" AI engine that leads to the AI making innumerable mistakes. It's the combination of TPS and bad AI that has made playing 1v1 an experience of constant frustation.

    @sethamphetamines THIS is what i was in reference to. He doesn't mention old gen specifically but it was implied as he used NEW GEN as his reference as to why it's become a problem, hence him saying "since the new-gen game debuted". That right there says that new gen is the problem with tps, not that tps is a problem. I do recall that bmh also said before that tps never had these issues before of the ai unable to facing the play. Not in this thread probably but he has said it before.

    So that's another part of what I was responding to and that's why I replied to him. So you basically interjected into a conversation without any prior knowledge of information iterated on his part. And that's why everything I've stated isn't moot. You're just not up to par with what has been said before. You're just taking a reply for face value and that was wrong. [/quote]

    I'm confused by your response, @eric57664, since I agree with Seth, and he's aptly summarized the argument I've been making all along. The comment you quote above was a response to Ilya's comment that the AI had similar problems with pivots and not facing the play with the old skating system, too. I think this is completely wrong. AI players end up with their backs to the play, make bad pivots, make bad turns, much more often in the new-gen game than they ever did in the old one, both pre- and post-TPS.

    You seem to think that old- and new-gen TPS are the same, so any differences in the way the AI skate must be the result of bad programming. But old- and new-gen TPS aren't the same. TPS on the new-gen systems is much clunkier, much harder to master, and has all the unintentional spins, weird rocking and back and forth, etc. that we've documented in this thread. Weight shifts in new-gen TPS are often overdone. Pivots and turns are often not smooth, for no obvious reason. And you can see this in the way AI players skate as well as the way humans skate.

    Look at the RD in this clip. All he's trying to do, I assume, is move a little bit toward the middle. But TPS basically makes him do close to a 180, and he ends up with his **** pointing up ice:



    Or here, the AI player is sliding over to the right. But TPS makes him slide almost all the way to the boards.



    Is that realistic? Have you ever seen a 94-rated NHL defenseman make a play like that? Then why do we have to deal with this nonsense?

    As I said in the post above, AI programming is also a problem -- AI players are weirdly indecisive, and often make bad choices. But the reason AI players end up with their backs to the play so often isn't solely because of how the AI is programmed -- it's because new-gen TPS makes it hard to consistently face the play.
  • sethamphetamines
    330 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    eric57664 wrote: »
    That right there says that new gen is the problem with tps, not that tps is a problem.

    What he said is that there is a problem with the TPS engine in the next gen game. But I don't need to speak for him, he can correct me if I'm wrong. That's my opinion of things anyways, which is why I interjected, because I agreed with what I thought he was clearly saying.

    But this isn't about what BMH said. I disagreed with your assessment that the AI is the issue, and not TPS.

    Let me put it this way. Since there are issues that both humans and AI have in common with this iteration of TPS, would it make more sense to spend time fixing the AI and how they handle an under-performing skating engine, or would it make more sense to fix the skating engine so that it doesn't give humans or AI as many problems?
This discussion has been closed.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.