Old gen never had this weird skating pivots and weight shifts that you just showed in these last two videos. Tps is the same on old gen and new gen (by its core) and then tweaked here and there over the years. So yes, ai programming on how to use tps is the real issue here.
Maybe the programming was a little basic in old gen and it had the ai make easy decisions. Maybe now it's too in depth that it gets confused. Maybe it's a bug. Who knows, but whatever the problem is, it isn't tps alone because there are a lot of human players that can skate just fine with it.
Also, if tps is the true culprit, then the ai would still have all these issue that were really bad in NHL 15 on new gen. A lot of have said that tps has gotten worse but the ai has gotten better. Ya they make a lot of mistakes, but as I just said, the ai facing the wrong way and incorrect weight shifts were much worse in NHL 15, got better in 16 and a bit better in 17. And all that was changed was programming to the ai to use tps. Not changing tps and letting the ai adapt to it.
K I think we finally have an understanding now. Yes, we want a realistic skating engine, but we need more control over our upper body and ability to square up and defend.
I think we are getting somewhere.
And I think what people mean by strafing, is just skating laterally while facing a set target (usually puck carrier, or for simplicity's sake, up ice). I don't think we mean anything more than that. Sometimes pedaling backwards in skating can still be strafing, but as long as the chest is square upwards that's strafing to us. Also lateral crossovers and the video where the skater was skating around the circle with his feet open wide (I don't know the technical term for it) is strafing I think to most of us.
Yep, understood. Different types of strafing have different limits on speed so we don't want to do anything contextually.
There is also moving laterally vs. actual strafing which to me is moving across your skate blades like we see in drills such as the iron cross (what we do with precision skating on defense) or when your front foot is open and your back foot is pushing (similar to what we do when you have your stick up in a manual one timer state) but in both cases your speed is limited so without unique input, we can't assume you want that (hence what we tried to do with precision skating). The video with his feet open is commonly called a Mohawk turn but you won't really see defenders doing that to defend a rush or position in front of the net. It is commonly used by highly skilled players like McDavid or Crosby when handling the puck because it is still a forward/turning move as opposed to something you would do lateral for longer distances and you can't do it to backwards angles.
Being able to move your upper body unique to your lower would help defend with the stick and give the option for your stick to be in passing lanes or contesting shots that are perpendicular to your movement angle. All things we consider for future designs.
Well, I have read your detailed and we'll thought out responses to a lot of these questions and feel I owe you and your team and apology. You have been both comprehensive and kind in your responses in these threads, and regardless of the fact that I feel there are a lot of issues in the game, I apologize for the tone of some of my previous complaints, and hope you will forgive some of those as poorly expressed frustration.
Old gen never had this weird skating pivots and weight shifts that you just showed in these last two videos. Tps is the same on old gen and new gen (by its core) and then tweaked here and there over the years. So yes, ai programming on how to use tps is the real issue here.
Maybe the programming was a little basic in old gen and it had the ai make easy decisions. Maybe now it's too in depth that it gets confused. Maybe it's a bug. Who knows, but whatever the problem is, it isn't tps alone because there are a lot of human players that can skate just fine with it.
Also, if tps is the true culprit, then the ai would still have all these issue that were really bad in NHL 15 on new gen. A lot of have said that tps has gotten worse but the ai has gotten better. Ya they make a lot of mistakes, but as I just said, the ai facing the wrong way and incorrect weight shifts were much worse in NHL 15, got better in 16 and a bit better in 17. And all that was changed was programming to the ai to use tps. Not changing tps and letting the ai adapt to it.
You think it is the same core with a few tweaks. You have no evidence of this. In fact, the available evidence I see points to that not being the case.
EA infamously "rebuilt the game from the ground up" for next gen
The engine plays much different now when compared to last gen. Moreso than just tweaks. If it were just tweaks, they were tweaks for the worst. This feels more like a re-write that isn't working properly.
I could be wrong. Maybe it is the exact engine perfectly copied to the next gen Ignite engine, and then tweaked, but that would be surprising to me.
Old gen never had this weird skating pivots and weight shifts that you just showed in these last two videos. Tps is the same on old gen and new gen (by its core) and then tweaked here and there over the years. So yes, ai programming on how to use tps is the real issue here.
Maybe the programming was a little basic in old gen and it had the ai make easy decisions. Maybe now it's too in depth that it gets confused. Maybe it's a bug. Who knows, but whatever the problem is, it isn't tps alone because there are a lot of human players that can skate just fine with it.
Also, if tps is the true culprit, then the ai would still have all these issue that were really bad in NHL 15 on new gen. A lot of have said that tps has gotten worse but the ai has gotten better. Ya they make a lot of mistakes, but as I just said, the ai facing the wrong way and incorrect weight shifts were much worse in NHL 15, got better in 16 and a bit better in 17. And all that was changed was programming to the ai to use tps. Not changing tps and letting the ai adapt to it.
You think it is the same core with a few tweaks. You have no evidence of this. In fact, the available evidence I see points to that not being the case.
EA infamously "rebuilt the game from the ground up" for next gen
The engine plays much different now when compared to last gen. Moreso than just tweaks. If it were just tweaks, they were tweaks for the worst. This feels more like a re-write that isn't working properly.
I could be wrong. Maybe it is the exact engine perfectly copied to the next gen Ignite engine, and then tweaked, but that would be surprising to me.
Wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. There was a comment from the dev handle about copying something from last gen into new gen. Pretty much defeats the purpose of "built from the ground up". I believe it was on player switching(could be completely wrong).
Is that realistic? Have you ever seen a 94-rated NHL defenseman make a play like that? Then why do we have to deal with this nonsense?
As I said in the post above, AI programming is also a problem -- AI players are weirdly indecisive, and often make bad choices. But the reason AI players end up with their backs to the play so often isn't solely because of how the AI is programmed -- it's because new-gen TPS makes it hard to consistently face the play.
These clips seem to show the poor AI programming the EA team placed on the AI, not really the TPS!
Because the skating motions that are part of the TPS would have the player be able to move to the correct position with natural looking movements. Not this clunky movement.
It can be seen, EA has the AI programmed to go to point B, RIGHT NOW, so the AI does this crazy animation to get there. Where as if the TPS was programmer properly for the AI or like a human, who understands how to use the TPS, would move to the position correctly and naturally ............if of course the humans uses TPS properly.
Rant Time: According to the community, they want EA to give players more margin of error, but they dont realize this would limit the skating abilities of their player, (example of margin of error when swtich players and he does a weird skating motions or doesnt face the player properly)
I just hope/wish EA removes the stupid auto-dekes and pulling the puck back behind 90s degrees of the players stance or if they do, decrease puck control by a large margin.
I mean seriously how often do you see players hold the stick behind them ? Other then ovehkin...........it never happens.
Just remember just becasue of player isnt face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play
Is that realistic? Have you ever seen a 94-rated NHL defenseman make a play like that? Then why do we have to deal with this nonsense?
As I said in the post above, AI programming is also a problem -- AI players are weirdly indecisive, and often make bad choices. But the reason AI players end up with their backs to the play so often isn't solely because of how the AI is programmed -- it's because new-gen TPS makes it hard to consistently face the play.
These clips seem to show the poor AI programming the EA team placed on the AI, not really the TPS!
Because the skating motions that are part of the TPS would have the player be able to move to the correct position with natural looking movements. Not this clunky movement.
It can be seen, EA has the AI programmed to go to point B, RIGHT NOW, so the AI does this crazy animation to get there. Where as if the TPS was programmer properly for the AI or like a human, who understands how to use the TPS, would move to the position correctly and naturally ............if of course the humans uses TPS properly.
Rant Time: According to the community, they want EA to give players more margin of error, but they dont realize this would limit the skating abilities of their player, (example of margin of error when swtich players and he does a weird skating motions or doesnt face the player properly)
I just hope/wish EA removes the stupid auto-dekes and pulling the puck back behind 90s degrees of the players stance or if they do, decrease puck control by a large margin.
I mean seriously how often do you see players hold the stick behind them ? Other then ovehkin...........it never happens.
Just remember just becasue of player isnt face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play
Exactly what I said to @nickythewop. When the guy posted a video of him playing, he wasn't always facing the play at certain times, it was because he didn't need to. He was focused somewhere else with his body but his eyes were still on the puck, like in that pic you posted.
I just hope/wish EA removes pulling the puck back behind 90s degrees of the players stance or if they do, decrease puck control by a large margin.
I mean seriously how often do you see players hold the stick behind them ? Other then ovehkin...........it never happens.
I'm all in favor of this, but they've obviously been going in the other direction: the "hold the stick all the way behind yourself" exploit is more powerful than ever. If they did get rid of it,, 90% of the top 1v1 players would have to completely change the way they play.
Just remember just because of player isn't face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play
Exactly and I wish I had this image to illustrate one of my points yesterday which was sometimes I choose not to the face the play/puck on purpose.
Like when I'm a Dman covering a player in front of my net. If the play is in the corner and I know my teammates are taking care of the opposing player then why do I need/want to be facing the play? Sometimes I'm not even fully watching the play/puck if I know my teammates have it covered so I'm just fully paying attention to the man I'm covering. I know a lot of really good dman that do this.
Also as a offensive dman I won't face the play/puck in purpose to anticipate a break out. I can breakout/join it much quicker if I'm already facing towards and up the ice rather than having to turn/pivot (whatever) when I'm facing the play/puck.
Another situation is when I'm a RW covering my man at the point and the play is behind me so sometimes my back is to the play. I don't need/want to be facing it.
Plus it's a video game and I can see/watch the play with my own eyes no matter what direction my player is facing.
What you're describing is poor coverage though. If you're that sure that your teammates are going to take possession, then you should be trying to get away from your man to start a breakout and not staring at him. If you're not sure who's going to come out of a play with possession, then you should be facing the play to give your defender a better chance of intercepting a puck that comes your way.
Unless you're using tie-ups on your man or chasing them a bit because they're trying to create separation, you should be facing that play to be sure that your man doesn't even have a chance to get a pass. It's not about making sure your virtual player can see the play with his eyes, because you have your own eyes for that as you mention. It's about having your player in proper position to make a defensive play, and it also applies on offense when trying to be ready for a one-timer. If there's an unexpected turnover, you shouldn't be spending time turning to face the play when you could have been doing so from the start.
Your argument basically comes down to you saying that you don't care. That's great that it works for what you want, but the lack of a button that exclusively faces the puck (or the net if you have the puck with that player) is a problem that many of us had had with the game for several years now. I'm pretty sure most of the people here have adjusted to it by now, but we're sick of having to spend so much effort to do something that could be so simple.
It all comes down to having enough buttons on the controller and as you can see from others in this thread, it is already too much for a lot of people to be paying close attention to what their player is physically capable of. They want skating to come easier. Vision controller gives you the facing you would want the high majority of the time depending on if you are an off puck offense or defensive player. With regular skating, as I know you understand from reading your posts, he either skates forwards or backwards to keep that VC angle in his front 180 degrees. Due to physical limitations in skating he can't face directly at that angle 100 percent of the time unless using precision skating and strafing.
I agree there are times on defense where you may just be playing your man with your back to the puck but in those situations, you are probably actually tying them up so using our tie up mechanic will give you assist in doing that similar to hitting. We could in future look at using VC skating under that intention as well and it has been talked about so that you don't accidentally over skate a player with too much effort when requesting to tie up. We have a few things we definitely want to make better in that system anyways.
Off puck offense, it is very rare that you would want to make strafe type moves and not be in a facing direction to receive a puck, one time it or deflect it so the choice for the VC angle is the correct one in my opinion. Again, it may be possible to add another state to put you into a precision type skate from your current facing and lock that as the target but there isn't an intuitive way to do that on the controller with our current scheme and it would be very rare to want to do that.
Just remember just because of player isn't face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play
Exactly and I wish I had this image to illustrate one of my points yesterday which was sometimes I choose not to the face the play/puck on purpose.
Like when I'm a Dman covering a player in front of my net. If the play is in the corner and I know my teammates are taking care of the opposing player then why do I need/want to be facing the play? Sometimes I'm not even fully watching the play/puck if I know my teammates have it covered so I'm just fully paying attention to the man I'm covering. I know a lot of really good dman that do this.
Also as a offensive dman I won't face the play/puck in purpose to anticipate a break out. I can breakout/join it much quicker if I'm already facing towards and up the ice rather than having to turn/pivot (whatever) when I'm facing the play/puck.
Another situation is when I'm a RW covering my man at the point and the play is behind me so sometimes my back is to the play. I don't need/want to be facing it.
Plus it's a video game and I can see/watch the play with my own eyes no matter what direction my player is facing.
What you're describing is poor coverage though. If you're that sure that your teammates are going to take possession, then you should be trying to get away from your man to start a breakout and not staring at him. If you're not sure who's going to come out of a play with possession, then you should be facing the play to give your defender a better chance of intercepting a puck that comes your way.
Unless you're using tie-ups on your man or chasing them a bit because they're trying to create separation, you should be facing that play to be sure that your man doesn't even have a chance to get a pass. It's not about making sure your virtual player can see the play with his eyes, because you have your own eyes for that as you mention. It's about having your player in proper position to make a defensive play, and it also applies on offense when trying to be ready for a one-timer. If there's an unexpected turnover, you shouldn't be spending time turning to face the play when you could have been doing so from the start.
Your argument basically comes down to you saying that you don't care. That's great that it works for what you want, but the lack of a button that exclusively faces the puck (or the net if you have the puck with that player) is a problem that many of us had had with the game for several years now. I'm pretty sure most of the people here have adjusted to it by now, but we're sick of having to spend so much effort to do something that could be so simple.
Now I think it's clear to me that you're simply not good at using and understanding how TPS and VC currently works There IS a button that faces the puck too. It's L2 (PS4) VC.
I usually don't stop paying attention to the player I'm covering until my team has possession.
I can't stick lift/tie up the player I'm covering it I'm not facing him.
With the inconsistent physics in this game I know a lot of the time a pass will get by me and to the intended receiver when I'm facing the play/puck so sometimes I concentrate solely on covering my man. Also, If I have my man covered completely by facing him and trying tying him up (or ready to) then his teammates shouldn't be passing to him nor do I expect them to. Perhaps you're one of those forwards that get frustrated and upset when I'm strictly playing man to man.
Thanks for the laugh. So when you were backskating along the blue line in your video, that was facing the puck? Looked more like you facing at a 90 degree angle away from the puck. L2 works far too much like a back skating button. It's a fairly mild attempt at actually facing the puck, and EA needs to improve (or rather, go back to how things used to be) by tightening up the focus of the player to better face the puck so that he's not at a 90 degree angle sometimes.
Completely ignoring the speed that the player is able to perform these actions, how the player is facing in the clips below is exactly what we've been asking to have back in the game for 5 years now:
You simply can't replicate those actions in NHL 17 without moving ridiculously slow. I'll even pull an example from the video you posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfPoi-rbETg
Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.
This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.
And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.
It all comes down to having enough buttons on the controller and as you can see from others in this thread, it is already too much for a lot of people to be paying close attention to what their player is physically capable of. They want skating to come easier. Vision controller gives you the facing you would want the high majority of the time depending on if you are an off puck offense or defensive player. With regular skating, as I know you understand from reading your posts, he either skates forwards or backwards to keep that VC angle in his front 180 degrees. Due to physical limitations in skating he can't face directly at that angle 100 percent of the time unless using precision skating and strafing.
I agree there are times on defense where you may just be playing your man with your back to the puck but in those situations, you are probably actually tying them up so using our tie up mechanic will give you assist in doing that similar to hitting. We could in future look at using VC skating under that intention as well and it has been talked about so that you don't accidentally over skate a player with too much effort when requesting to tie up. We have a few things we definitely want to make better in that system anyways.
Off puck offense, it is very rare that you would want to make strafe type moves and not be in a facing direction to receive a puck, one time it or deflect it so the choice for the VC angle is the correct one in my opinion. Again, it may be possible to add another state to put you into a precision type skate from your current facing and lock that as the target but there isn't an intuitive way to do that on the controller with our current scheme and it would be very rare to want to do that.
I think you severely underestimate how often this would be used. Defencemen walking the blue line would constantly use it every time their team is cycling around in the offensive zone. Weak side wingers looking for 1 timers would use it all the time. A player trying to post up in front of the net trying to screen the goalie or tip a shot as his team passes around the zone would for sure use it.
This stuff would be used a lot every single game. This is the biggest deficiency in your game by far. There is a ton of subtle weight transfers, opening of hips, turn lead skate and t push quickly then go back to normal parallel skates, etc. that are used all the time in real life that are completely void from the skating engine. These things are also seamless, you don't have to come to a complete stop to be able to transfer into these maneuvers.
Just remember just because of player isn't face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play
Exactly and I wish I had this image to illustrate one of my points yesterday which was sometimes I choose not to the face the play/puck on purpose.
Like when I'm a Dman covering a player in front of my net. If the play is in the corner and I know my teammates are taking care of the opposing player then why do I need/want to be facing the play? Sometimes I'm not even fully watching the play/puck if I know my teammates have it covered so I'm just fully paying attention to the man I'm covering. I know a lot of really good dman that do this.
Also as a offensive dman I won't face the play/puck in purpose to anticipate a break out. I can breakout/join it much quicker if I'm already facing towards and up the ice rather than having to turn/pivot (whatever) when I'm facing the play/puck.
Another situation is when I'm a RW covering my man at the point and the play is behind me so sometimes my back is to the play. I don't need/want to be facing it.
Plus it's a video game and I can see/watch the play with my own eyes no matter what direction my player is facing.
What you're describing is poor coverage though. If you're that sure that your teammates are going to take possession, then you should be trying to get away from your man to start a breakout and not staring at him. If you're not sure who's going to come out of a play with possession, then you should be facing the play to give your defender a better chance of intercepting a puck that comes your way.
Unless you're using tie-ups on your man or chasing them a bit because they're trying to create separation, you should be facing that play to be sure that your man doesn't even have a chance to get a pass. It's not about making sure your virtual player can see the play with his eyes, because you have your own eyes for that as you mention. It's about having your player in proper position to make a defensive play, and it also applies on offense when trying to be ready for a one-timer. If there's an unexpected turnover, you shouldn't be spending time turning to face the play when you could have been doing so from the start.
Your argument basically comes down to you saying that you don't care. That's great that it works for what you want, but the lack of a button that exclusively faces the puck (or the net if you have the puck with that player) is a problem that many of us had had with the game for several years now. I'm pretty sure most of the people here have adjusted to it by now, but we're sick of having to spend so much effort to do something that could be so simple.
Now I think it's clear to me that you're simply not good at using and understanding how TPS and VC currently works There IS a button that faces the puck too. It's L2 (PS4) VC.
I usually don't stop paying attention to the player I'm covering until my team has possession.
I can't stick lift/tie up the player I'm covering it I'm not facing him.
With the inconsistent physics in this game I know a lot of the time a pass will get by me and to the intended receiver when I'm facing the play/puck so sometimes I concentrate solely on covering my man. Also, If I have my man covered completely by facing him and trying tying him up (or ready to) then his teammates shouldn't be passing to him nor do I expect them to. Perhaps you're one of those forwards that get frustrated and upset when I'm strictly playing man to man.
Thanks for the laugh. So when you were backskating along the blue line in your video, that was facing the puck? Looked more like you facing at a 90 degree angle away from the puck. L2 works far too much like a back skating button. It's a fairly mild attempt at actually facing the puck, and EA needs to improve (or rather, go back to how things used to be) by tightening up the focus of the player to better face the puck so that he's not at a 90 degree angle sometimes.
Completely ignoring the speed that the player is able to perform these actions, how the player is facing in the clips below is exactly what we've been asking to have back in the game for 5 years now:
You simply can't replicate those actions in NHL 17 without moving ridiculously slow. I'll even pull an example from the video you posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfPoi-rbETg
Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.
This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.
And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.
In your 2nd video, you pivot the wrong way at 0:18. Lol. Not even the old skating you're fully facing the puck. And in the 1st video, show me a video where a defeneman would do that in real life on defence. I doubt it. He would actually face the boards with his skates while his torso is facing the puck. And I showed something very similar to this in my NHL 16 video. Let me see if I can find it on daily motion.
It all comes down to having enough buttons on the controller and as you can see from others in this thread, it is already too much for a lot of people to be paying close attention to what their player is physically capable of. They want skating to come easier. Vision controller gives you the facing you would want the high majority of the time depending on if you are an off puck offense or defensive player. With regular skating, as I know you understand from reading your posts, he either skates forwards or backwards to keep that VC angle in his front 180 degrees. Due to physical limitations in skating he can't face directly at that angle 100 percent of the time unless using precision skating and strafing.
I agree there are times on defense where you may just be playing your man with your back to the puck but in those situations, you are probably actually tying them up so using our tie up mechanic will give you assist in doing that similar to hitting. We could in future look at using VC skating under that intention as well and it has been talked about so that you don't accidentally over skate a player with too much effort when requesting to tie up. We have a few things we definitely want to make better in that system anyways.
Off puck offense, it is very rare that you would want to make strafe type moves and not be in a facing direction to receive a puck, one time it or deflect it so the choice for the VC angle is the correct one in my opinion. Again, it may be possible to add another state to put you into a precision type skate from your current facing and lock that as the target but there isn't an intuitive way to do that on the controller with our current scheme and it would be very rare to want to do that.
Thanks for the explanation but:
Here is a link to that quick clip I just made that shows me making some lateral movements WITH the puck that we're currently unable to do WITHOUT the puck in this game.
The things I want to be able to do in the video are the things I'm doing when I'm holding down L2 & L1 at the same time and then flicking/tapping/pushing my left stick. I needed to in order, come to a stop, then press and hold L2 and then L1 and then use my left stick to do those things though.
Is it possible to configure the control schemes (skill stick only) so we can use the above controls the same way to do the same things without the puck?
In order to do so you would have to switch "block pass" (L1) and "switch player" (R2) which we don't use with "skill stick" settings.
Because currently holding down L2 plus flicking the left stick **** **** and doesn't do those things I could with the puck in the video.
I'm looking at your online skill stick manual and this just doesn't make sense:
DEFENSE
Skating (left stick)
Precision skating L2 (hold) + left stick (flick).
Vision control L2 (hold).
No wonder it's messed up and we're also unable to do certain things without the puck that we can with. L2 does two different things whether we flick or move the left stick or not.
Actually, why not just move "block pass" to R2. Precision skating to L1 (hold) and VC still is L2.
=
Lateral movements L1 (hold) & L2 (hold) + left stick (flick) for short steps (push) for strafing.
Am I even making sense at this point?
Yep you're on the right track here, this is the stuff that we need back in the game.
Just an fyi, when holding LB (L1) with the puck, you don't also need to hold LT (L2). Things become more complex than needed if you have to use two fingers to hold both at the same time, holding one or the other is all you need to do.
That goes for your proposed controls too, holding both just isn't necessary.
You also mention flicks in your proposed scheme. Flicks are bad. This game is too fast for little flicks all the time. These maneuvers need to control the same as normal skating, simply by pushing the LS in the direction you want.
Also, these maneuvers you show that are currently in the game, while good in principle, just aren't good enough. Nobody uses them. You can play hundreds of games and not see a single player use any of them. They are too slow, clunky, animation driven, bad controls (flicks), have to start from a complete stop, etc.
They need to be seamlessly transitionable (if you are under speed threshold) with normal skating, control the same as normal skating (no flicking LS) and they need to be free flow smooth movement (not locked into animations).
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Maybe the programming was a little basic in old gen and it had the ai make easy decisions. Maybe now it's too in depth that it gets confused. Maybe it's a bug. Who knows, but whatever the problem is, it isn't tps alone because there are a lot of human players that can skate just fine with it.
Also, if tps is the true culprit, then the ai would still have all these issue that were really bad in NHL 15 on new gen. A lot of have said that tps has gotten worse but the ai has gotten better. Ya they make a lot of mistakes, but as I just said, the ai facing the wrong way and incorrect weight shifts were much worse in NHL 15, got better in 16 and a bit better in 17. And all that was changed was programming to the ai to use tps. Not changing tps and letting the ai adapt to it.
Well, I have read your detailed and we'll thought out responses to a lot of these questions and feel I owe you and your team and apology. You have been both comprehensive and kind in your responses in these threads, and regardless of the fact that I feel there are a lot of issues in the game, I apologize for the tone of some of my previous complaints, and hope you will forgive some of those as poorly expressed frustration.
You think it is the same core with a few tweaks. You have no evidence of this. In fact, the available evidence I see points to that not being the case.
EA infamously "rebuilt the game from the ground up" for next gen
The engine plays much different now when compared to last gen. Moreso than just tweaks. If it were just tweaks, they were tweaks for the worst. This feels more like a re-write that isn't working properly.
I could be wrong. Maybe it is the exact engine perfectly copied to the next gen Ignite engine, and then tweaked, but that would be surprising to me.
Wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. There was a comment from the dev handle about copying something from last gen into new gen. Pretty much defeats the purpose of "built from the ground up". I believe it was on player switching(could be completely wrong).
These clips seem to show the poor AI programming the EA team placed on the AI, not really the TPS!
Because the skating motions that are part of the TPS would have the player be able to move to the correct position with natural looking movements. Not this clunky movement.
It can be seen, EA has the AI programmed to go to point B, RIGHT NOW, so the AI does this crazy animation to get there. Where as if the TPS was programmer properly for the AI or like a human, who understands how to use the TPS, would move to the position correctly and naturally ............if of course the humans uses TPS properly.
Rant Time: According to the community, they want EA to give players more margin of error, but they dont realize this would limit the skating abilities of their player, (example of margin of error when swtich players and he does a weird skating motions or doesnt face the player properly)
I just hope/wish EA removes the stupid auto-dekes and pulling the puck back behind 90s degrees of the players stance or if they do, decrease puck control by a large margin.
I mean seriously how often do you see players hold the stick behind them ? Other then ovehkin...........it never happens.
Just remember just becasue of player isnt face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play
Exactly what I said to @nickythewop. When the guy posted a video of him playing, he wasn't always facing the play at certain times, it was because he didn't need to. He was focused somewhere else with his body but his eyes were still on the puck, like in that pic you posted.
I'm all in favor of this, but they've obviously been going in the other direction: the "hold the stick all the way behind yourself" exploit is more powerful than ever. If they did get rid of it,, 90% of the top 1v1 players would have to completely change the way they play.
What you're describing is poor coverage though. If you're that sure that your teammates are going to take possession, then you should be trying to get away from your man to start a breakout and not staring at him. If you're not sure who's going to come out of a play with possession, then you should be facing the play to give your defender a better chance of intercepting a puck that comes your way.
Unless you're using tie-ups on your man or chasing them a bit because they're trying to create separation, you should be facing that play to be sure that your man doesn't even have a chance to get a pass. It's not about making sure your virtual player can see the play with his eyes, because you have your own eyes for that as you mention. It's about having your player in proper position to make a defensive play, and it also applies on offense when trying to be ready for a one-timer. If there's an unexpected turnover, you shouldn't be spending time turning to face the play when you could have been doing so from the start.
Your argument basically comes down to you saying that you don't care. That's great that it works for what you want, but the lack of a button that exclusively faces the puck (or the net if you have the puck with that player) is a problem that many of us had had with the game for several years now. I'm pretty sure most of the people here have adjusted to it by now, but we're sick of having to spend so much effort to do something that could be so simple.
I agree there are times on defense where you may just be playing your man with your back to the puck but in those situations, you are probably actually tying them up so using our tie up mechanic will give you assist in doing that similar to hitting. We could in future look at using VC skating under that intention as well and it has been talked about so that you don't accidentally over skate a player with too much effort when requesting to tie up. We have a few things we definitely want to make better in that system anyways.
Off puck offense, it is very rare that you would want to make strafe type moves and not be in a facing direction to receive a puck, one time it or deflect it so the choice for the VC angle is the correct one in my opinion. Again, it may be possible to add another state to put you into a precision type skate from your current facing and lock that as the target but there isn't an intuitive way to do that on the controller with our current scheme and it would be very rare to want to do that.
Thanks for the laugh. So when you were backskating along the blue line in your video, that was facing the puck? Looked more like you facing at a 90 degree angle away from the puck. L2 works far too much like a back skating button. It's a fairly mild attempt at actually facing the puck, and EA needs to improve (or rather, go back to how things used to be) by tightening up the focus of the player to better face the puck so that he's not at a 90 degree angle sometimes.
Completely ignoring the speed that the player is able to perform these actions, how the player is facing in the clips below is exactly what we've been asking to have back in the game for 5 years now:
You simply can't replicate those actions in NHL 17 without moving ridiculously slow. I'll even pull an example from the video you posted:
Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.
This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.
And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.
I think you severely underestimate how often this would be used. Defencemen walking the blue line would constantly use it every time their team is cycling around in the offensive zone. Weak side wingers looking for 1 timers would use it all the time. A player trying to post up in front of the net trying to screen the goalie or tip a shot as his team passes around the zone would for sure use it.
This stuff would be used a lot every single game. This is the biggest deficiency in your game by far. There is a ton of subtle weight transfers, opening of hips, turn lead skate and t push quickly then go back to normal parallel skates, etc. that are used all the time in real life that are completely void from the skating engine. These things are also seamless, you don't have to come to a complete stop to be able to transfer into these maneuvers.
In your 2nd video, you pivot the wrong way at 0:18. Lol. Not even the old skating you're fully facing the puck. And in the 1st video, show me a video where a defeneman would do that in real life on defence. I doubt it. He would actually face the boards with his skates while his torso is facing the puck. And I showed something very similar to this in my NHL 16 video. Let me see if I can find it on daily motion.
Yep you're on the right track here, this is the stuff that we need back in the game.
Just an fyi, when holding LB (L1) with the puck, you don't also need to hold LT (L2). Things become more complex than needed if you have to use two fingers to hold both at the same time, holding one or the other is all you need to do.
That goes for your proposed controls too, holding both just isn't necessary.
You also mention flicks in your proposed scheme. Flicks are bad. This game is too fast for little flicks all the time. These maneuvers need to control the same as normal skating, simply by pushing the LS in the direction you want.
Also, these maneuvers you show that are currently in the game, while good in principle, just aren't good enough. Nobody uses them. You can play hundreds of games and not see a single player use any of them. They are too slow, clunky, animation driven, bad controls (flicks), have to start from a complete stop, etc.
They need to be seamlessly transitionable (if you are under speed threshold) with normal skating, control the same as normal skating (no flicking LS) and they need to be free flow smooth movement (not locked into animations).