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EA Dev, TPS needs to be better or else this game will never reach potential

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  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2016
    Workin_OT wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Dev, can I please get an explanation on this?
    It all comes down to having enough buttons on the controller and as you can see from others in this thread, it is already too much for a lot of people to be paying close attention to what their player is physically capable of. They want skating to come easier. Vision controller gives you the facing you would want the high majority of the time depending on if you are an off puck offense or defensive player. With regular skating, as I know you understand from reading your posts, he either skates forwards or backwards to keep that VC angle in his front 180 degrees. Due to physical limitations in skating he can't face directly at that angle 100 percent of the time unless using precision skating and strafing.

    I agree there are times on defense where you may just be playing your man with your back to the puck but in those situations, you are probably actually tying them up so using our tie up mechanic will give you assist in doing that similar to hitting. We could in future look at using VC skating under that intention as well and it has been talked about so that you don't accidentally over skate a player with too much effort when requesting to tie up. We have a few things we definitely want to make better in that system anyways.

    Off puck offense, it is very rare that you would want to make strafe type moves and not be in a facing direction to receive a puck, one time it or deflect it so the choice for the VC angle is the correct one in my opinion. Again, it may be possible to add another state to put you into a precision type skate from your current facing and lock that as the target but there isn't an intuitive way to do that on the controller with our current scheme and it would be very rare to want to do that.

    I think you severely underestimate how often this would be used. Defencemen walking the blue line would constantly use it every time their team is cycling around in the offensive zone. Weak side wingers looking for 1 timers would use it all the time. A player trying to post up in front of the net trying to screen the goalie or tip a shot as his team passes around the zone would for sure use it.

    This stuff would be used a lot every single game. This is the biggest deficiency in your game by far. There is a ton of subtle weight transfers, opening of hips, turn lead skate and t push quickly then go back to normal parallel skates, etc. that are used all the time in real life that are completely void from the skating engine. These things are also seamless, you don't have to come to a complete stop to be able to transfer into these maneuvers.

    I think you need to re-read what I wrote. That part was in response to what Ilya said about wanting to strafe at a facing direction that isn't that of our current vision control angle. All of the things you have said you have wanted to do is taken into account with our current vision control angle.

    How intuitive precision skating is compared to regular skating (strafes vs regular strides and the speeds at which you can do that at) is up for debate, but we already know peoples thoughts there and also would like to improve it ourselves.
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Just remember just because of player isn't face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play

    260qydt.jpg

    Exactly and I wish I had this image to illustrate one of my points yesterday which was sometimes I choose not to the face the play/puck on purpose.

    Like when I'm a Dman covering a player in front of my net. If the play is in the corner and I know my teammates are taking care of the opposing player then why do I need/want to be facing the play? Sometimes I'm not even fully watching the play/puck if I know my teammates have it covered so I'm just fully paying attention to the man I'm covering. I know a lot of really good dman that do this.

    Also as a offensive dman I won't face the play/puck in purpose to anticipate a break out. I can breakout/join it much quicker if I'm already facing towards and up the ice rather than having to turn/pivot (whatever) when I'm facing the play/puck.

    Another situation is when I'm a RW covering my man at the point and the play is behind me so sometimes my back is to the play. I don't need/want to be facing it.

    Plus it's a video game and I can see/watch the play with my own eyes no matter what direction my player is facing.

    What you're describing is poor coverage though. If you're that sure that your teammates are going to take possession, then you should be trying to get away from your man to start a breakout and not staring at him. If you're not sure who's going to come out of a play with possession, then you should be facing the play to give your defender a better chance of intercepting a puck that comes your way.

    Unless you're using tie-ups on your man or chasing them a bit because they're trying to create separation, you should be facing that play to be sure that your man doesn't even have a chance to get a pass. It's not about making sure your virtual player can see the play with his eyes, because you have your own eyes for that as you mention. It's about having your player in proper position to make a defensive play, and it also applies on offense when trying to be ready for a one-timer. If there's an unexpected turnover, you shouldn't be spending time turning to face the play when you could have been doing so from the start.

    Your argument basically comes down to you saying that you don't care. That's great that it works for what you want, but the lack of a button that exclusively faces the puck (or the net if you have the puck with that player) is a problem that many of us had had with the game for several years now. I'm pretty sure most of the people here have adjusted to it by now, but we're sick of having to spend so much effort to do something that could be so simple.

    Now I think it's clear to me that you're simply not good at using and understanding how TPS and VC currently works There IS a button that faces the puck too. It's L2 (PS4) VC.

    I usually don't stop paying attention to the player I'm covering until my team has possession.

    I can't stick lift/tie up the player I'm covering it I'm not facing him.

    With the inconsistent physics in this game I know a lot of the time a pass will get by me and to the intended receiver when I'm facing the play/puck so sometimes I concentrate solely on covering my man. Also, If I have my man covered completely by facing him and trying tying him up (or ready to) then his teammates shouldn't be passing to him nor do I expect them to. Perhaps you're one of those forwards that get frustrated and upset when I'm strictly playing man to man.

    Thanks for the laugh. So when you were backskating along the blue line in your video, that was facing the puck? Looked more like you facing at a 90 degree angle away from the puck. L2 works far too much like a back skating button. It's a fairly mild attempt at actually facing the puck, and EA needs to improve (or rather, go back to how things used to be) by tightening up the focus of the player to better face the puck so that he's not at a 90 degree angle sometimes.

    Completely ignoring the speed that the player is able to perform these actions, how the player is facing in the clips below is exactly what we've been asking to have back in the game for 5 years now:





    You simply can't replicate those actions in NHL 17 without moving ridiculously slow. I'll even pull an example from the video you posted:


    Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.

    This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.

    And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.

    You're not paying attention and you keep flip flopping the points of discussion.

    I've been stating several times in this thread that I want to be able to do those things in the videos you posted. I even just finished making a very quick video showing some things I can do with the puck that I want to be able to do without.

    So I wasn't disagreeing with you on that. The opposing rush at 2:50 of the video is primarily the reason why I want to be able to move laterally while facing the play/puck carrier. I've also stated I want to be able to face any direction I want regardless of where the play/puck is while being able to move laterally.

    YOU were originally arguing that it isn't possible to be able to face the play/puck and how often it doesn't allow us to not have our backs to the play. Then you go on about my decision making on whether I decided to face the play/puck or not.

    Here is a link to that quick clip I mentioned that shows me making some lateral movements with the puck that we're currently unable to do without the puck in this game. If I was able to make those side steps/strafing/pushes then sometimes I purposely wouldn't face the play/puck like I previously explained.



    The things I want to be able to do in the video are the things I'm doing when I'm holding down L2 & L1 at the same time and flicking/tapping/pushing my left stick I need to come to a stop, then press and hold L2 and then L1 first though.

    The DEV explained in a previous post why we're currently unable to which is primarily due to a lack of a button/controller scheme.

    Maybe we should just start over then. It seems like we do both want the same things out of TPS, but we each have some misunderstandings about what the other was talking about.

    I think that gameplay example we're talking about is definitely one of the best areas where VC is really failing users. There's just no good way to make that play as a defender right now, because there is not way to tell the game that when you push the LS to the right that you really only want to do a crossover or two without maintaining any momentum. Defenders are often looking to close the gap on forwards coming in, so they're gliding backwards and just want to move a bit to the left/right, but it's interpreted as trying to change your skating direction entirely, and pressing down and to the right might help somewhat, but it also gives up your gap control and gives the forward more time to dangle around.

    Forwards actually do have this ability with the puck by using dekes though. It allows them to make quick shifts to the left and right without giving up their forward momentum, while defenders need to delicately balance their lateral movements to keep their player from giving up all of their backward momentum.

    It's things like this where unless the game can perfectly understand the context of your controls and what you're trying to do, it's bound to fail at some point, and adding in controls for the user to manage this for themselves aren't possible, which make me question the benefits of having a realistic skating engine. It just can't predict what I'm trying to do in every situation, and can act as more of a hindrance than it helps at times. I'd rather see forwards have trouble getting around defenders because they are given more room for error in their pivots, than see defenders get beat because the engine mistook their LS flick to the left as a turn instead of a lateral shuffle.
  • NHLDev
    1680 posts EA NHL Developer
    edited December 2016
    Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.

    This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.

    And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.

    I have posted this before. This conversation is going in circles. There are points you guys are making that are correct but since the game hasn't been updated, it is a bit redundant.

    There needs to be a more intuitive and smooth way to get into precision skating and a defender needs to be able to rotate his upper body counter to his hips to keep his shoulders more square when needed (this is what would come out of a more manual stick control). These are both noted, known and won't change until they are added.

    Some of the other comments though are in relation to what the videogame allowed in the past but is not physically possible in real life. At speed, you can't do some of the skating actions you are asking for. That is why vision control can know the angle you want but not give you 100 percent facing angle at the puck. It does the best job to keep your vision control angle in the front 180 degrees of your player. That is why at times you can get up to 90 degrees of that angle.

    The reason you don't see this a lot in NHL hockey is because the players do a good job with their gap and angles understanding these limitations in skating. They don't want to be so far from their opponent that they need to close the gap by skating laterally on the ice which forces them to backskate there. They will always be a stick length away and thus can take shallower angles and use back cross over and straight backskating to keep their 'VC' facing and stay in front of their opponent.

    In this clip, which I know I have posted before, you will see examples of the Kings development camp doing 2 on 1 rush drills. At times, the player has to close off the gap quicker and will get closer to skating backwards laterally across the ice but most of the time, they have the lane they want and don't need to move laterally at such harsh angles forcing that 90 degree turn.

    This is the same is what is happening in that part of the clip you mentioned at 2:50. The one defender turns sharp which negates his ability to cross over and he has to turn his hips and transition to a full back skate to keep his VC angle as best he can and also move at that angle.


  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Just remember just because of player isn't face the play, doesnt mean hes not watching the play

    260qydt.jpg

    Exactly and I wish I had this image to illustrate one of my points yesterday which was sometimes I choose not to the face the play/puck on purpose.

    Like when I'm a Dman covering a player in front of my net. If the play is in the corner and I know my teammates are taking care of the opposing player then why do I need/want to be facing the play? Sometimes I'm not even fully watching the play/puck if I know my teammates have it covered so I'm just fully paying attention to the man I'm covering. I know a lot of really good dman that do this.

    Also as a offensive dman I won't face the play/puck in purpose to anticipate a break out. I can breakout/join it much quicker if I'm already facing towards and up the ice rather than having to turn/pivot (whatever) when I'm facing the play/puck.

    Another situation is when I'm a RW covering my man at the point and the play is behind me so sometimes my back is to the play. I don't need/want to be facing it.

    Plus it's a video game and I can see/watch the play with my own eyes no matter what direction my player is facing.

    What you're describing is poor coverage though. If you're that sure that your teammates are going to take possession, then you should be trying to get away from your man to start a breakout and not staring at him. If you're not sure who's going to come out of a play with possession, then you should be facing the play to give your defender a better chance of intercepting a puck that comes your way.

    Unless you're using tie-ups on your man or chasing them a bit because they're trying to create separation, you should be facing that play to be sure that your man doesn't even have a chance to get a pass. It's not about making sure your virtual player can see the play with his eyes, because you have your own eyes for that as you mention. It's about having your player in proper position to make a defensive play, and it also applies on offense when trying to be ready for a one-timer. If there's an unexpected turnover, you shouldn't be spending time turning to face the play when you could have been doing so from the start.

    Your argument basically comes down to you saying that you don't care. That's great that it works for what you want, but the lack of a button that exclusively faces the puck (or the net if you have the puck with that player) is a problem that many of us had had with the game for several years now. I'm pretty sure most of the people here have adjusted to it by now, but we're sick of having to spend so much effort to do something that could be so simple.

    Now I think it's clear to me that you're simply not good at using and understanding how TPS and VC currently works There IS a button that faces the puck too. It's L2 (PS4) VC.

    I usually don't stop paying attention to the player I'm covering until my team has possession.

    I can't stick lift/tie up the player I'm covering it I'm not facing him.

    With the inconsistent physics in this game I know a lot of the time a pass will get by me and to the intended receiver when I'm facing the play/puck so sometimes I concentrate solely on covering my man. Also, If I have my man covered completely by facing him and trying tying him up (or ready to) then his teammates shouldn't be passing to him nor do I expect them to. Perhaps you're one of those forwards that get frustrated and upset when I'm strictly playing man to man.

    Thanks for the laugh. So when you were backskating along the blue line in your video, that was facing the puck? Looked more like you facing at a 90 degree angle away from the puck. L2 works far too much like a back skating button. It's a fairly mild attempt at actually facing the puck, and EA needs to improve (or rather, go back to how things used to be) by tightening up the focus of the player to better face the puck so that he's not at a 90 degree angle sometimes.

    Completely ignoring the speed that the player is able to perform these actions, how the player is facing in the clips below is exactly what we've been asking to have back in the game for 5 years now:





    You simply can't replicate those actions in NHL 17 without moving ridiculously slow. I'll even pull an example from the video you posted:


    Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.

    This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.

    And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.


    Stop posting videos from back when the game was amazing and gave actual control, it hurts watching them now.
  • Zeroshift wrote: »


    Stop posting videos from back when the game was amazing and gave unrealistic control, it hurts watching them now because I cant adapt and learn how to actual use the skating engine

    You must unlearn what you have learned!
  • COGSx86 wrote: »
    Stop posting videos from back when the game was amazing and gave unrealistic control, it hurts watching them now because I cant adapt and learn how to actual use the skating engine
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.

    This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.

    And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.

    I have posted this before. This conversation is going in circles. There are points you guys are making that are correct but since the game hasn't been updated, it is a bit redundant.

    There needs to be a more intuitive and smooth way to get into precision skating and a defender needs to be able to rotate his upper body counter to his hips to keep his shoulders more square when needed (this is what would come out of a more manual stick control). These are both noted, known and won't change until they are added.

    Some of the other comments though are in relation to what the videogame allowed in the past but is not physically possible in real life. At speed, you can't do some of the skating actions you are asking for. That is why vision control can know the angle you want but not give you 100 percent facing angle at the puck. It does the best job to keep your vision control angle in the front 180 degrees of your player. That is why at times you can get up to 90 degrees of that angle.

    The reason you don't see this a lot in NHL hockey is because the players do a good job with their gap and angles understanding these limitations in skating. They don't want to be so far from their opponent that they need to close the gap by skating laterally on the ice which forces them to backskate there. They will always be a stick length away and thus can take shallower angles and use back cross over and straight backskating to keep their 'VC' facing and stay in front of their opponent.

    In this clip, which I know I have posted before, you will see examples of the Kings development camp doing 2 on 1 rush drills. At times, the player has to close off the gap quicker and will get closer to skating backwards laterally across the ice but most of the time, they have the lane they want and don't need to move laterally at such harsh angles forcing that 90 degree turn.

    This is the same is what is happening in that part of the clip you mentioned at 2:50. The one defender turns sharp which negates his ability to cross over and he has to turn his hips and transition to a full back skate to keep his VC angle as best he can and also move at that angle.

    Is the ability to make those shallow cuts without accelerating backwards something that would be included in those eventual features you mention? Essentially, if I'm skating backwards at the exact speed I want, could I simply tap the LS to the right a bit and have my player do a crossover or two without affecting his angle of attack? Right now it feels like you often need to make a decision between keeping your angle or keeping your gap, because you have to hold your LS closer to straight down to not trigger the larger turning animation, but that might mean back skating faster than you really want to.
  • NHLDev wrote: »
    Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.

    This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.

    And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.

    I have posted this before. This conversation is going in circles. There are points you guys are making that are correct but since the game hasn't been updated, it is a bit redundant.

    There needs to be a more intuitive and smooth way to get into precision skating and a defender needs to be able to rotate his upper body counter to his hips to keep his shoulders more square when needed (this is what would come out of a more manual stick control). These are both noted, known and won't change until they are added.

    Some of the other comments though are in relation to what the videogame allowed in the past but is not physically possible in real life. At speed, you can't do some of the skating actions you are asking for. That is why vision control can know the angle you want but not give you 100 percent facing angle at the puck. It does the best job to keep your vision control angle in the front 180 degrees of your player. That is why at times you can get up to 90 degrees of that angle.

    The reason you don't see this a lot in NHL hockey is because the players do a good job with their gap and angles understanding these limitations in skating. They don't want to be so far from their opponent that they need to close the gap by skating laterally on the ice which forces them to backskate there. They will always be a stick length away and thus can take shallower angles and use back cross over and straight backskating to keep their 'VC' facing and stay in front of their opponent.

    In this clip, which I know I have posted before, you will see examples of the Kings development camp doing 2 on 1 rush drills. At times, the player has to close off the gap quicker and will get closer to skating backwards laterally across the ice but most of the time, they have the lane they want and don't need to move laterally at such harsh angles forcing that 90 degree turn.

    This is the same is what is happening in that part of the clip you mentioned at 2:50. The one defender turns sharp which negates his ability to cross over and he has to turn his hips and transition to a full back skate to keep his VC angle as best he can and also move at that angle.

    Is the ability to make those shallow cuts without accelerating backwards something that would be included in those eventual features you mention? Essentially, if I'm skating backwards at the exact speed I want, could I simply tap the LS to the right a bit and have my player do a crossover or two without affecting his angle of attack? Right now it feels like you often need to make a decision between keeping your angle or keeping your gap, because you have to hold your LS closer to straight down to not trigger the larger turning animation, but that might mean back skating faster than you really want to.

    THAT is a really good point. Right now, what you just said is strafing. We have that. Maybe the difficult part would be to do it at a slower speed for you, but it is not that hard to do. If you skate backwards, don't just press right, you need to press back, then do a curl with your left stick to have him strafe. Just let go when you want to keep that angle. If you press right while skating/gliding backwards, then you'll turn your body to angle your body to face at 11 o'clock. Doing the curl will keep your angle. This was explained back in NHL 14 with a dev video I saw on YouTube.
  • eric57664 wrote: »
    NHLDev wrote: »
    Let's look at the rush starting for the other team at about 2:50. RD, C, and LW all start out skating straight back, and I'm fairly sure at least one of you was holding L2 for the entire duration of the play. As the play goes on, each of you shifts to the right to react to what their forward is doing. The problem with this is that all three of you also then turn your entire body to the left, despite the forward now being on your right.

    This puts you at a significant disadvantage, because your skates are almost perpendicular to the direction he is from you. C isn't able to connect on his first poke check because he's not facing the player and then has to scramble to keep the forward from completely beating him and cutting in, RD isn't able to help because he has to stop before he can get back over to the left, and LW can't step up after C gets beat because his skates are perpendicular to the player and has to stop as well. If any one of you had been able to keep your skates facing up ice and used crossovers to move laterally instead of turning your entire body to back skate, this play probably would have been snubbed out shortly after crossing the blue line instead of resulting in a penalty because your center can't keep up with the forward's lateral movement.

    And please, don't take this to mean that I'm asking for NHL 10 skating. I just want to be able to face the puck as well as I could, and if that means I can only do so with a moderate reduction in speed (meaning way faster than precision skating), that's perfectly fine.

    I have posted this before. This conversation is going in circles. There are points you guys are making that are correct but since the game hasn't been updated, it is a bit redundant.

    There needs to be a more intuitive and smooth way to get into precision skating and a defender needs to be able to rotate his upper body counter to his hips to keep his shoulders more square when needed (this is what would come out of a more manual stick control). These are both noted, known and won't change until they are added.

    Some of the other comments though are in relation to what the videogame allowed in the past but is not physically possible in real life. At speed, you can't do some of the skating actions you are asking for. That is why vision control can know the angle you want but not give you 100 percent facing angle at the puck. It does the best job to keep your vision control angle in the front 180 degrees of your player. That is why at times you can get up to 90 degrees of that angle.

    The reason you don't see this a lot in NHL hockey is because the players do a good job with their gap and angles understanding these limitations in skating. They don't want to be so far from their opponent that they need to close the gap by skating laterally on the ice which forces them to backskate there. They will always be a stick length away and thus can take shallower angles and use back cross over and straight backskating to keep their 'VC' facing and stay in front of their opponent.

    In this clip, which I know I have posted before, you will see examples of the Kings development camp doing 2 on 1 rush drills. At times, the player has to close off the gap quicker and will get closer to skating backwards laterally across the ice but most of the time, they have the lane they want and don't need to move laterally at such harsh angles forcing that 90 degree turn.

    This is the same is what is happening in that part of the clip you mentioned at 2:50. The one defender turns sharp which negates his ability to cross over and he has to turn his hips and transition to a full back skate to keep his VC angle as best he can and also move at that angle.

    Is the ability to make those shallow cuts without accelerating backwards something that would be included in those eventual features you mention? Essentially, if I'm skating backwards at the exact speed I want, could I simply tap the LS to the right a bit and have my player do a crossover or two without affecting his angle of attack? Right now it feels like you often need to make a decision between keeping your angle or keeping your gap, because you have to hold your LS closer to straight down to not trigger the larger turning animation, but that might mean back skating faster than you really want to.

    THAT is a really good point. Right now, what you just said is strafing. We have that. Maybe the difficult part would be to do it at a slower speed for you, but it is not that hard to do. If you skate backwards, don't just press right, you need to press back, then do a curl with your left stick to have him strafe. Just let go when you want to keep that angle. If you press right while skating/gliding backwards, then you'll turn your body to angle your body to face at 11 o'clock. Doing the curl will keep your angle. This was explained back in NHL 14 with a dev video I saw on YouTube.

    I totally get what you're saying, and I know how to get that action to trigger, but it requires me to press down on the LS, which impacts my gap control. Imagine you're in a 1v1 as a defender in the center of the ice with good gap control and perfectly matched speed with the forward, and then the forward makes a move to the side and slows down slightly too, because of their cut. Pressing down on LS would give up your gap control completely because you'd be speeding up while he's slowing down.

    This gets into the game understanding the situation and what you're trying to do though. I don't really want that, because even the best code would still be wrong a small part of the time, and I don't want a mistake by the skating engine to punish a user because it thought they wanted to do a turn instead of a strafe.

    What I'd love is a skating engine that made no attempt to predict my actions or changed based on where the puck was at a given time. I want to be able to go into free skate mode with no puck on the ice and just be able to practice my movements, and then take that into a game and be able to do the exact same things. I want players with and without the puck to have the same abilities in terms of skating, but I don't want knowledge of the skating engine to be a deciding factor in games.

    It feels more and more each year like this is becoming a skating cutscene simulator where you can play hockey instead of a hockey game though. EA is talking about adding more skating mechanics to the game to fix the fact that their skating mechanics are too complex. Am I the only one who notices this?
  • "It feels more and more each year like this is becoming a skating cutscene simulator where you can play hockey instead of a hockey game though. EA is talking about adding more skating mechanics to the game to fix the fact that their skating mechanics are too complex. Am I the only one who notices this? "

    STOP EA!!! Do not keep adding complexity and more and more layers!!!

    Just as bad as Government, maybe good intentions, terrible result, then Government says we will fix it by making it worse, and on and on and on.

    KISS, keep it simple stupid!
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    STOP EA!!! Do not keep adding complexity and more and more layers!!!

    Just as bad as Government, maybe good intentions, terrible result, then Government says we will fix it by making it worse, and on and on and on.

    KISS, keep it simple stupid!

    Yep, you can already predict what's going to happen here. NHL 18 comes out, and they trot out their new mechanic on how you can do some new things in the skating engine. Maybe post a few videos showing off the dozen or so new animations in the game that are minor variations on the old ones that existed, and of course some quirky new name for the AI "improvements" in the game like they do every year. Probably have a few game changers talk about how awesome it was to play the new version at EA HQ, and how excited they are.

    By the week after release, there will be another issue like the stick lift where EA somehow didn't see it coming and takes a month or two to fix it, along with plenty of other small stuff and the constant complaints about online responsiveness.
  • yup Their trailer is always just cutscenes never any real gameplay.. As for the so called GAME CHANGERS that has to be the biggest joke in all of EA... Game changers lie just as bad as other people always saying ya EA made the game way better this year ya ok there, people like Johnny Superbman should be a game changer
  • RSall14
    613 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    STOP EA!!! Do not keep adding complexity and more and more layers!!!

    Just as bad as Government, maybe good intentions, terrible result, then Government says we will fix it by making it worse, and on and on and on.

    KISS, keep it simple stupid!

    Yep, you can already predict what's going to happen here. NHL 18 comes out, and they trot out their new mechanic on how you can do some new things in the skating engine. Maybe post a few videos showing off the dozen or so new animations in the game that are minor variations on the old ones that existed, and of course some quirky new name for the AI "improvements" in the game like they do every year. Probably have a few game changers talk about how awesome it was to play the new version at EA HQ, and how excited they are.

    By the week after release, there will be another issue like the stick lift where EA somehow didn't see it coming and takes a month or two to fix it, along with plenty of other small stuff and the constant complaints about online responsiveness.

    Spot on, we all know how they operate after years of the same ****. I mean look at Brick last year, he was excited for the game and was defending it. Once it came out he was gone and apparently he is extremely disappointed with it. They keep losing hardcore fans year after year, only reason this game is still afloat is because the casuals who play this game are clueless.
  • RSall14 wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    STOP EA!!! Do not keep adding complexity and more and more layers!!!

    Just as bad as Government, maybe good intentions, terrible result, then Government says we will fix it by making it worse, and on and on and on.

    KISS, keep it simple stupid!

    Yep, you can already predict what's going to happen here. NHL 18 comes out, and they trot out their new mechanic on how you can do some new things in the skating engine. Maybe post a few videos showing off the dozen or so new animations in the game that are minor variations on the old ones that existed, and of course some quirky new name for the AI "improvements" in the game like they do every year. Probably have a few game changers talk about how awesome it was to play the new version at EA HQ, and how excited they are.

    By the week after release, there will be another issue like the stick lift where EA somehow didn't see it coming and takes a month or two to fix it, along with plenty of other small stuff and the constant complaints about online responsiveness.

    Spot on, we all know how they operate after years of the same ****. I mean look at Brick last year, he was excited for the game and was defending it. Once it came out he was gone and apparently he is extremely disappointed with it. They keep losing hardcore fans year after year, only reason this game is still afloat is because the casuals who play this game are clueless.

    Yea, I can't remember the last time I saw Brick around here. Even Seth was pretty much a ghost until recently, and Workin_OT had always been one of the biggest supporters of EA on these forums. I don't think any of us really want to quit playing this game, but the frustration level has just gotten to a boiling point right now.
  • RSall14 wrote: »
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    STOP EA!!! Do not keep adding complexity and more and more layers!!!

    Just as bad as Government, maybe good intentions, terrible result, then Government says we will fix it by making it worse, and on and on and on.

    KISS, keep it simple stupid!

    Yep, you can already predict what's going to happen here. NHL 18 comes out, and they trot out their new mechanic on how you can do some new things in the skating engine. Maybe post a few videos showing off the dozen or so new animations in the game that are minor variations on the old ones that existed, and of course some quirky new name for the AI "improvements" in the game like they do every year. Probably have a few game changers talk about how awesome it was to play the new version at EA HQ, and how excited they are.

    By the week after release, there will be another issue like the stick lift where EA somehow didn't see it coming and takes a month or two to fix it, along with plenty of other small stuff and the constant complaints about online responsiveness.

    Spot on, we all know how they operate after years of the same ****. I mean look at Brick last year, he was excited for the game and was defending it. Once it came out he was gone and apparently he is extremely disappointed with it. They keep losing hardcore fans year after year, only reason this game is still afloat is because the casuals who play this game are clueless.

    Yea, I can't remember the last time I saw Brick around here. Even Seth was pretty much a ghost until recently, and Workin_OT had always been one of the biggest supporters of EA on these forums. I don't think any of us really want to quit playing this game, but the frustration level has just gotten to a boiling point right now.

    Yup.

    All this time and resources to add all the goal horns, mascots, life-like arenas, etc, when the actual basics and the game itself are horrid.

    Then all the additions to EASHL. Yea, sure, they are great on paper, but we know the issues and again, the basics and actual game are yet again horrid.

    What is the point of making really super nice looking wrappers when the candy itself tastes really bade?? Just make the damned candy taste good and eventually make those sexy wrappers....

    Just so tired of shelling out money every year while having my fingers crossed, yet knowing in the end I will regret my purchase. I still remember this year's selling point: Made all positions enjoyable to play.... Hmmm, yea, right lol.

    So of course, for 18, it will be as nicky described. A bunch of useless and half functional additions while the core problems still persist. Rinse, repeat, change the yearly title.
  • Sounds like everyone is finally coming around on what really happens with this franchise. The incessant boot licking is finally coming to an end as reality finally sets in to some of the thick skulls around here.

    Well, with the exception of Joey, of course, who still clings to his hope of becoming a game changer :D
  • sgiz1 wrote: »
    "It feels more and more each year like this is becoming a skating cutscene simulator where you can play hockey instead of a hockey game though. EA is talking about adding more skating mechanics to the game to fix the fact that their skating mechanics are too complex. Am I the only one who notices this? "

    STOP EA!!! Do not keep adding complexity and more and more layers!!!

    Just as bad as Government, maybe good intentions, terrible result, then Government says we will fix it by making it worse, and on and on and

    Must you force your childish political beliefs on us? Go read Atlas Shrugged.
  • BoboFloggins
    2170 posts Member
    edited December 2016
    sgiz1 wrote: »
    "It feels more and more each year like this is becoming a skating cutscene simulator where you can play hockey instead of a hockey game though. EA is talking about adding more skating mechanics to the game to fix the fact that their skating mechanics are too complex. Am I the only one who notices this? "

    STOP EA!!! Do not keep adding complexity and more and more layers!!!

    Just as bad as Government, maybe good intentions, terrible result, then Government says we will fix it by making it worse, and on and on and

    Must you force your childish political beliefs on us? Go read Atlas Shrugged.

    Ayn Rand would be a preset build enforcer
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